Pre-Marital Kissing is a Sin

I exclaimed out loud “THAT IS SO TRUE!” while reading this and frightened my office mate. The whole bit about going 0 to 60… not gonna happen most of the time. I know from personal experience and the experience of several friends.

I really hate how Christian teens are taught to believe self control is basically impossible so instead you just have to try to shut down your hormones. You can’t shut down your hormones but you can control them. My husband and I were together for 5 years before we got married and we were virgins on our wedding day. Sure, there were rough moments but we didn’t have to shut intimacy and passion out of our relationship to maintain self-control. If you really want to wait to have sex, you can do it and still kiss, cuddle, snuggle, hug (yes, even from the front!) and hold hands a million times.

I do want to clarify, we knew we were going to be dating for a long time because we started dating at 19 and didn’t plan to get married right after undergrad. With that in mind we took things really slow and didn’t kiss on the lips for the first 2 years of our relationship so we could pace ourselves. We were running a marathon, not a 5k 🙂 The point is, talk amongst yourselves (you and your significant other) and decide what is going to make it easiest for you to be the happiest, best, most God-glorifying couple you can be. Your relationship should be a source of joy that other people see and think, wow. That brings glory to God.

Don’t let all these rules and regulations bog down your relationships.

I don’t see where Katie said that kissing was a sin. Just not a good idea. Maybe there’s more to the talk that we’re not seeing where she says or even implies that kissing is a sin. I think Katie’s a dunce, don’t get me wrong… and I’m still amazed at how many dumb ideas I had about sex that were as a result of her teaching… I just don’t think it’s helpful, putting words in her mouth.

The last couple of months of my engagement were filled with irritation, frustration and the most ridiculous sexual tension you can imagine. There were so many times when I wished we hadn’t progressed to that stage of our physical relationship. I never felt like I had “sinned” by kissing… but I later felt that it hadn’t been a good idea. Maybe it’s unfair for her to imply that we all have no self control, so we should be rigid and distant… but wow, having experienced the “0 to 60” phenomenon… I wish I hadn’t had to spend the last few months of my pre-married life fighting against what was a very natural response to the slightest physical touch. And 6 years and two kids later, I wish I still had that magical, immediate response 🙂

I wish Katie (and company) talked more about “When you kiss and this happens…” because honestly… most people are going to cross that boundary and get to that point. And when they do… they need a better understanding of what forgiving yourself and your significant other (if necessary) really looks like.

Anon, you are right, she doesn’t flat out say, “Pre-marital kissing is a sin.” But let’s follow the logic:

1) Any kind of sexual intimacy is wrong before marriage.

2)Sexual intimacy begins with passion.

3) Passion is only for marriage.

She goes on to specify that ONLY light affection is appropriate before marriage. She doesn’t use the word “sin” but she doesn’t have to. Every intern is trained to hear it that way, don’t you think?

And if they do kiss, the couple will have to break up for a year.

It’s funny I read this then started my morning with my husband the usual way. There was a normal amount of snuggling hugs and touches that could be considered normal relationship stuff even for non-married types. I thought about this post as I got my shoulders rubbed, a hug where the cheeks lightly stroked each other… ect light soft hugs where our arms slid across each others sides. Intimacy at it’s finest! The funny thing is the thing that caused me the least amount of reaction of a desire want more was the kisses. Kisses don’t always make you NEED more they can just be a loving expression of care and Intimacy.
All this to say Kissing doesn’t cause one to “stumble” Hell hugs cuddles arms lightly touching eachothers back NONE of these things will “cause you to stumble” if you have specific barriers and partners that actually respect you. If your man won’t respect your boundaries it won’t matter where you draw the line they will be a jerk if you draw the line at kissing OR at naked touching because they are shit and not worth your time! If your partner is a respectful person what you think is right for you to do before engagement before marriage and after marriage will matter to them and they won’t try to force you to go beyond that because they love and respect you. Yes this is something that continues AFTER marriage because believe it or not there are so many things in the world of sex that you may or may not be interested in trying and your husband (or wife) has to respect your decision to try/not to try each of these things.
It just is sickening to me that people are discouraged from doing one thing as an arbitrary show of commitment to purity. Frankly all the things I described this morning can be part of a pure beginning where love and respect are emphasis not some random rule set by people who think the world can’t respect each other.

I am not surprized in the least since Ron Luce himself supports arranged marriages, where there would be no intimacy until marriage anyway. I hope they look at the flip side where young British Asian women are forced by their parents to marry men they do not want to marry and have to be rescued by the British counsulate in places like Pakistan and India.

Katie Luce is not qualified to teach college-aged adults about sex and relationships. Her kitten-friendly vernacular is confusing. If she means to interchange terms like ‘sexual immorality’ and ‘sexual intimacy’, she needs to define them in very clear terms.

In the context of this discussion, Sexual immorality is this…. Sexual intimacy is this…

All sexuality is immoral and all intimacy is sexual? Intimacy and affection differ? Why? How? Sexuality is what? Sex is what?

If she is going to talk about sex, she needs to get over her fear of talking about it because tip-toeing around a subject of this magnitude (especially when you aren’t using biblical backing) can become hugely confusing if you aren’t crystal clear. Furthermore, it needs be presented as a discussion and not a lecture.

My two-cents.

Yes, RA… I think I can see in that sense how it’s implied… especially since I remember so much of the nonsense she taught while I was an intern (for instance… wearing lingerie is a sin and many other gems) so in that context, I definitely agree with you.

And yes… I agree with previous posters that she is ambiguous (intentionally so, perhaps) when it comes to terminology. It’s no wonder I dealt with so much confusion when it came to drawing lines in the proverbial sand of my sexuality. It was a real stress. On top of Katie’s teaching… a male friend let me borrow his Trailer Club notebook one day, since he was so disgusted with the program… and WOW. That shit had me reeling.

I like heartsfire’s comment,
“It is just sickening to me that people are discouraged from doing one thing as an arbitrary show of commitment to purity.”

That’s a really important thing I’ve been learning lately… boundaries are something that the individual couples should come up with on their own, not something to be imposed on them. Only YOU can know what is okay for you and what is going to be a temptation, and what you may want to save for your future spouse. THEN decide on your boundaries taking these things into consideration, because if you’re just doing something because someone else imposes it on you or just for the sake of doing it (or not doing it, in this case) it becomes just that: arbitrary. And from there, since you haven’t thought through why you’re really holding those boundaries, they’re just arbitrary and become a lot harder for you to keep, in my opinion. Basing your personal relationships and physical boundaries solely off of what someone else says or does is never a good idea.

Ugh. I am one of those who married the first guy she kissed and still regret it. Sucks. You’re right this teaching can rob you of years of your life and instead hand you a pile full of guilt and regret.

Anon– It’s true she doesn’t say “sin,” but it’s very common in these cases to use language-loading and create code words. Notice how she’s very subtly setting it up here:

“immorality”
X “is wrong…”
“Don’t even start…”
“appropriate”
“only for marriage”

In a culture like TM’s where everything is completely about performance and outward appearance, the leader doesn’t have to use the s-word for something to be considered “sinful.” “Inappropriate” is just as bad; “immoral” is probably worse.

The doctrinal tradition this is coming from, of course, is prime vintage Pharisaism. “God gave us a rule (save sex for marriage) so I’m going to make up a bunch of other really nitpicky rules to keep you from breaking it!”

Isn’t it clear by now that Ron Luce, David Hasz, Heath Stoner, Jonathan Hasz are all sexual perverts that can’t control their own desire? Why else would they (and Katie Luce) teach people that this patently false piece of excrement? What I find puzzling is that parents STILL trust their children to these major pervs.

mouse out

I had a friend from the internship who refused to kiss her husband before they got married. It was a HUGE deal. They made a big deal out of it at the ceremony, and that it was her first kiss EVER. However, they did engage in oral sex before they got married. Now, I don’t judge them for the OS at all. That was their decision. But she was so worried about the first kiss thing and had made such a big deal about it.

I think this is what TM does to people though. They give them all of these outrageous guidelines that nobody should be expected to keep, and so these interns actually go FARTHER because of the restrictions, which produces more guilt, and then deep shame that they take into their marriages. Instead of cultivating a sense of healthy personal boundaries that you can handle inside of a relationship, TM pushes kids to commit to a standard that they will never uphold. The resulting damage is horrific, to say the least.

As a parent of a former HA intern: I agree, if we had any idea about what was going on – most of us would have been at the curb immediately, loading our kid’s stuff to leave. But since this is a time when we are trying to allow them to make their own decisions, generally having just become officially adults, we are usually not too informed. And TM makes sure to persuade the interns that they are a failure if they quit or let their parents know what is happening. Interns who are sleep deprived, emotionally and spiritually abused may not be able to recognize the manipulation since they are kept too busy to think but as a parent, I know cult innuendo, brainwashing techniques and abuse when I see it. Unfortunately, by the time we and the intern have realized what has happened, they are not part of TM anymore and we have little power to do anything, particularly since they stay just this side of illegal.

PS I was told that the interns were taught by RL that only sex in the missionary position was acceptable. Any other position was sinful. SERIOUSLY! I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. I felt bad for RL’s wife & daughters (and the other interns) if that is the type of atmosphere they live in. Didn’t see that commandment in the Bible – must have missed it. (sarcastic grimace)

I’ve known women who have kept their first kisses (among other things) for their wedding day and now those women have issues in the bedroom because they did not allow themselves to have those wants. They cannot physically have sex because it’s too painful.
That might not happen in ever circumstance, but I think it’s idiotic to set yourself up for failure like that.
Kissing is fine just as long as you’re not dumb about it.

I can honestly say that these teaching SCREWED ME UP! I did not allow my fiance to even doat on me (can you believe that!) what makes it worst is that I was his first serious girlfriend so while this is the time he should have been learning to be romantic (something that would carry on through marriage) I stopped and as had much more problems as a result.

While we did kiss, we were not fans of PDA since there were a few couples around us who were disgustingly open about their affections. We thought we were being examples. But now 5+ years into marriage he still finds it difficult to hug me in public because of the standards I set for him.

Intimacy frightened me so much that I was one of those women Willow referred too. It was only after I realized what I was taught that I could begin to heal. I have a husband who is still afraid to be intimate because it might hurt me.

If you are taught over and over and over that affection is wrong then the feeling does not go away when you get married. A woman on staff at TM told me she was so used to keeping her self private that she could not even bring herself to have sex on her wedding night!!!

THANK YOU TM FOR MAKING MY MARRIAGE A LOT HARDER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

And did I mention Im actually overall secure woman. While at TM I scoffed at the rules and got away with a lot….but this teaching managed to get to me! damn it!

People, Sex is great! Sex is amazing, while I am sure God would prefer it be in the confines of marriage, He is not going to damn your marriage because you slip up.

Huggung is ok! Holding hands is ok! It doesn’t not make you a Jezabel no matter what anyone says!

Peace out!

*hugging*

“Of course, this doesn’t apply in every case but I know plenty of Christian women who grew up under these teachings who are terrified of sex. In fact, it might be easy for them to follow these dating rules but their husband, who has been promised a wonderful sex life for following these rules, is going to be in for a rude awakening when his wife can’t immediately flip the switch after saying “I do.””

Yeah, this was me. Well, not the terrified of sex part b/c I couldn’t wait! LOL But the difficulty AFTER we were married was just like that. It was so hrd for me to flip the switch from “NO! Sex is BAD!” to “Let’s get it on!” And my poor husband was just like that – he went into our marriage expecting/hoping for enough sex to make up for all the years he had to wait to get it. LOL. Poor guy. After 12 years of marriage, we’re just now at a great place sexually. Which is really sad that it’s taken this long (not to say that it hasn’t been great over the 12 years – there was just a lot of conflict in that time).

I think it’s safe to say at this point that most of TM’s teaching aren’t grounded in any sort of reality. My wife and I were all over each other from the moment we started dating. We kissed, cuddled, spooned. even held hands. I confess, we even sinned sexually, which I want to stress neither of us are proud of. Luckily we were able to confess our sin and experience God’s grace and forgiveness.

Here’s the thing though, according to Ron Luce, our marriage should be terrible and fraught with difficulties. We should be miserable, our entire marriage ruined by our egregious sins. Guess nobody explained this to my wife, because our marriage has been nothing short of wonderful! We’re ridiculously in love and I’m experiencing more growth and grace in the Lord than I ever did at the HA.

Wow…I’ve been lurking here for awhile but I had to comment. I’m a former intern. I’ve had the same problem with having a hard time “flipping the switch” after I said “I do.”. I’ve been married for a year now and I was so used turning down my husbands affection and not getting to carried away while kissing etc. before marriage that I still find it hard to be turned on and think that sex is okay. It’s nice to know that I’m not alone in feeling this way. When we would go “too far” before we were married I would feel so guilty and full of shame that I still associate those feelings while being intimate. It gives me hope that some of you ladies have overcome this particular situation. I’m slowly getting there with healing and thank God that I have a patient husband. He is a new Christian so he finds it hard to understand what I’m going through when I try to explain how I’m feeling and gets frustrated at times. But, for the most part is very understanding and compassionate. I think there is a major problem with this issue not just at Teen Mania and the Honor Academy but through-out the Chrisitan culture period. I grew up hearing the “purity” message especially saving your first kiss for marriage (I didn’t)and I can say now that it has seriously affected my marriage. The church needs to find a new way to teach about sexuality other than to shut off and ignore those God given feelings He has put there in our bodies. I was even watching a Tyra Banks show and it was a whole show on woman who were not able to have sex without pain or couldn’t have sex at all and all of them were virgins when they got married. Anyways…this has turned out to a long drawn out comment but I just want to thank you for doing a “series” on this topic. It’s something I feel that needs to be talked about as there are many woman (and men that are frustrated) out there suffering and don’t know where to pinpoint where and why they are feeling the way they are so that they can start the healing process. Thanks again! ~Ms. Riss~

This passage in Colossians just about sums it up: since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Ms. Riss, I’m so glad you feel encouraged. And that you now know that you are NOT alone. I had the same trouble… guilt, shame… and even after feeling “forgiven” I couldn’t stop associating those feelings with any kind of intimacy.

It has gotten so much better. After becoming aware of what is taught to men at Teen Mania I am so thankful and relieved that I married a man who (while still hoping and having desires and a need for fulfillment) didn’t make demands… and who always expressed that every step (no matter how small) was ENOUGH… which allowed me to work through the crap I was dealing with.

So keep feeling encouraged. It’s a journey… (sorry! It’s hard to write that and not sound cliched…)and though I’m out of the darkest bits… I was surprised when I read this post by how much I am still influenced by some of Teen Mania’s teachings. But we’ll get through it.

And Eric, (I was the lazy Anonymous @ 9:15 & 12:34) I do see it that way. I think because of my experiences (the strong feeling of REGRET that I have/had because of the mistakes I made before I was married) I didn’t immediately recognize the subtle undertones at work in what Katie had to say. Because while my marriage (and existence in general) is pretty amazing now… I suffered for so long as a result of the insane guilt I felt. I catch myself still wishing I hadn’t made the decisions I did… instead of just focusing on moving forward (ie: walking in grace and forgiveness). It’s a very subconscious thing. Even now I find the line between what is technically a sin… and something that’s probably a good idea to avoid – pretty blurry.

J. :

“After becoming aware of what is taught to men at Teen Mania I am so thankful and relieved…”

Ummm what exactly _was_ taught to the men?

Layne,
I don’t know what J. was referring to, but this is what I’ve heard taught to the guys: They are led to believe that married sex is going to be SOTOTALLYBLOWYOURFACEOFFAMAZING!!! if you follow all the rules in the meantime, and that you are just going to have it constantly, and that it is the wife’s duty to give herself to you whenever you want because the Bible said she has to, so if she’s godly then she’ll submit. Oh, and she’ll be a Barbie doll who will keep herself hot forever out of obedience to God to love her husband…or something.

I don’t think they ever mention that a woman might have needs, too…or that sex is just going to be awkward a first–it just IS–and that you have to work at it to make it good, and that it is a spiritual/emotional act as well as physical, and that you have to be giving and not selfish or demanding, and that sometimes your wife isn’t going to want to “do it” and you have to respect that and leave her alone. Nope, they don’t mention those things, or at least they didn’t when I was there.

Yes, all of the things that littlegraygirl just said… and more. It’s been years… but my closest guy friend was always sharing little tidbits with me (which of course was against all the rules…) but he jokingly made me promise that I wouldn’t marry anyone from the internship 🙂

One of the things he hated the most was the formulaic aspect of it. “Help her with the dishes and she won’t be able to keep her hands off of you…” Things like that.

Thankfully I didn’t get too screwed up despite Teen Mania and having been raised in conservative Christian homeschool circles. My parents were very open about sex in a healthy way, so that protected me. I even had a short conversation walking back to the dorms with a girl AND guy when Ron gave the “no oral sex” talk, We were all like, “where is that in the Bible?”. Hehe, rebels.

I did struggle with guilt and stress about finding the right husband. Thankfully when I did we happened upon the Christian book Sex 101 and it totally blew TM ideas to smitherenes (it said you should actually talk about sex during your engagement so it doesn’t freak you out on your wedding day!). So my husband and I had 0 issues about sex when we got married (we were both virgins, but shared plenty of kissing, cuddling, open discussion and passion beforehand!).

The Sexually Confident Wife was the book that really helped me before I got married. And just like you, Nicole, reading that book really blew all TM’s ideas out of the water. I think it saved me from being weird about sex on my wedding night (I was a virgin too).

Also, on J.’s post… while I do hate the formulaic approach to marriage, I must say my husband is significantly hotter when he does the dishes 😉

Yes. My husband is going to have a much better chance of getting lucky if he does the dishes without asking! 🙂

Oh yes… I totally agree. And I have way more energy to be hot myself when I’m not the one stuck doing everything 🙂 But there’s a fantastic difference between “I’m doing this so you’d better put out…” and “I’m doing this because you’re awesome and I want to serve you.”

My friend just hated the idea that he was basically being taught “Do this and she won’t be able to say ‘no’! And if she does say ‘no’, remind her that she’s not allowed to. And throw in some mean words about her not having a servant’s heart if she’s not in the mood… Oh! And remind her that having a headache is NOT an adequate excuse for not having sex, as you will need it every 24 hours.” Ruuuuuuuuuubbbbbbbbbish. Haha.

Absolutely. The reason it makes him hotter is because he’s doing it to be kind, not to get me in the sack. That’s just a bonus 😉

Did you know that the definition of a Sex addict includes not being able to go 24 hours without having sex and in EXTREME cases not taking no for an answer……
Just thought I would throw that out there in light of J’s comment

I just don’t understand how people (per RL’s advice) are able to get married without ever talking about sex (expectations, insecurities etc). I unloaded all of the stuff I learned/absorbed while at Teen Mania onto my would-be-husband in a “WTF” sort of way… which gave him the opportunity to debunk that nonsense… and alleviate my fears.

Had I married into the kind of expectation and demand ridden relationship that is touted and endorsed by Teen Mania staff members… it would have been devastating.

I feel ya, J. I can’t imagine how weird or even awful my wedding night would have been if my husband and I hadn’t talked about our expectations, insecurities, and boundaries beforehand.

well, I’m a dude, and this is blowing my mind and pisses me off. I know some couples who bought into this and i did too for a while. Yet this message is taught to all of us from the get go, and there’s so many gray area’s our leaders dont have answers for. But my heart goes out to all of you who have struggled

I admit i never went to TM, but deep down i wondered about this. I agree kissing/cuddling/holding hands isn’t the same as sexual intimacy and i have only been going to church for 2 years, and christian morality scares the heck out of me because im afraid i’ll wind up with a girlfriend / wife who holds up these messed up cold blooded values or is too messed up by these teachings…or someone who think its wrong to talk about sex and expectations or lives purely by guilt ( a habit im trying to quit) that’s why im afraid to date a christian woman.

My wife and I were both virgins and both have never kissed anyone or have ever had a girlfriend/boyfriend. We were best friends in our early teen years. Then we started going out when we were 17/19 years old. engaged at 18/20 years old and married at 19/21 years old. Our first kiss…. wedding day on the altar. I actually am very proud of this. Little over 2 years of just hugging and holding hands. We didnt kiss on purpose while dating because we think it is part of real intimacy. By the way, we didnt learn any of this from Teen Mania. Oh and hey… maybe girls dont understand but, cmon, young teens with self control. really? especially if we tell them they can kiss. I think as you grow older, say 20s, it is more realistic. Kissing may be an option. I dont really know. I was married by then. I think for us, the non-kissing really helped us stay pure. obviously along with a solid accountablity and our own love for God. But its like taking the bow off a present. Sure, its not opening it but it is a big tease and makes it really hard not to keep going.

While engaged we thought, maybe we could kiss, but then we laughed and said, “we made it this far. lets wait and make it count!” and boy, 7 years later of an awesome marrige, im glad I can say we did it right and i believe, not kissing helped a lot.

point is. Kissing is awesome. I dont think young teens have what it takes to do it and not go crazy.
Other point is, its possible to not kiss and be happy and in love and later have an awesome marriage.

Anon, I think it is awesome that you and your wife were committed to waiting to experience these things until marriage. I am glad that it was a pleasant experience for the both of you and something that you two both agreed upon.

I think the point of this post, however, is to remind us that intimacy before marriage is not a sin and therefore, we shouldn’t feel as if we HAVE to wait until marriage to show some intimacy (intimacy being defined as any physical affection).

“While engaged we thought, maybe we could kiss, but then we laughed and said, “we made it this far. lets wait and make it count!” and boy, 7 years later of an awesome marrige, im glad I can say we did it right and i believe, not kissing helped a lot.”

I’m sure you don’t mean it like this, Anon, because I used to have these same ideals! But saying that you “did it right” sounds very arrogant, and condescending to those who maybe DID kiss (or *gasp* had SEX) before marriage, and still made it work.

I used to think that kissing before marriage would be a detrimental stain on my heart, but then I had the revelation one day that God’s reaction to that probably wouldn’t be:

“Well done, you kept it in your pants”

but probably more like

“okay were you a self-righteous douche about it or did you have grace toward others who chose a different route”

I dunno, tl;dr but that’s my take on it xD

NH u’re my hero!

I just came across this blog by accident while doing research for a short story I’m writing about a fictional cult of young people. I’m an HA alumna from 2002, and I am so glad this site exists, though it’s heart-breaking. I started my first relationship at 22, dated a guy who had been into missions and was a Christian super-star, but turned out to be controlling and manipulating. Unfortunately, because I had ideals cultivated at the Honor Academy about marrying the first man I “courted” (let alone kissed), I found myself full of guilt and tried to make the relationship for much longer than I should have. Plus, all the rhetoric rolling around in my head about strict gender roles made it difficult for me to assert myself in the relationship. It utterly sucked.

In the end I learned a lot about myself, but am infinitely grateful I did not marry the first person I kissed.