If you purposely choose to practice self-denial by taking cold showers, limiting sugar, etc – is it really self-denial?
Or put another way…
Can self-denial practiced for the sake of self-denial really be considered self-denial?
17 comments:
RA–good question–esp. in light of the Lenten season where certain organized religions abstain from various things..When you ask them why they don’t eat meat on Friday–most will tell you ‘it’s because that’s the way it’s always been–it’s what we do as ____________’s’ It is rote behavior with no understanding what why they are self-denying. Or, I just had a conversation with a girl who said ‘Jesus suffered, so we must suffer a little too’. I also remember of hearing it said at TM that ‘Jesus hung on the cross for 12 hours so we can endure this….’
I think you need to look at the motives for self-denial. Is it to draw closer to God and seek His direction or is it trying to perform for God as in a works-mentality? The Bible says ‘our righteous acts are as filthy rags’ It was already done at the cross.
Fasting and praying and practicing self-denial is an interesting topic with many understandings of it. We all know how TM views it…what are other’s view of it? Perhaps RA could cover this more in future postings.
February 19, 2010 8:33 AM
Eric P. said…
It all depends whether or not it starts and ends at a position of grace. When I’ve voluntarily practiced self-denial (e.g. fasting) it’s made me keenly aware of how self-absorbed I usually am (because I can think about nothing but food!), and thus heightened my awareness of my need to depend totally on God. It’s not that it makes me holier; it’s that it shows me my need of God’s grace to make me holy. (Kind of like the Law, as properly understood according to Galatians 3.)
On the other hand, “Self-denial” practiced for the sake of making yourself feel superior to other people (“namby-pamby Christians,” was that the phrase?) is actually self-gratification. There’s a reason “not by works” is correlated with “so that no one should boast” in Ephesians 2.
On a third hand, Martin Luther once proposed that if your particular besetting temptation is to feel superior and self-righteous for, say, not drinking alcohol, an appropriate act of self-denial for you might be to “have a beer to spite the devil.”
February 19, 2010 9:10 AM
w said…
well said Eric P.!
February 19, 2010 9:31 AM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Wow.
Eric, I think your post just blew my mind.
Seriously.
I have a deep deep refusal in me to participate in alcohol consumption (good for now cause I’m not 21 yet haha), but mainly because I want to be an “elite example of a Christian”. The thought of actually drinking scares me a lot. Wow.
I don’t know if I like this revelation or not. Ahhh!
(Plus I just recently ranted to a few of my HA friends about how alcohol is satanic and I will never ever touch it…. oh my. I’d have to eat some serious crow!)
February 19, 2010 9:46 AM
Eric P. said…
Thanks! By the way, for those interested, here’s the actual Luther quote and a thoughtful discussion via the redoubtable Internet Monk:
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-luther-quote-to-wake-up-the-sleepers
February 19, 2010 10:20 AM
gc1998 said…
alcohol is awesome! also, this year, thinking about the verses that always told me drunkenness is a sin…i realized that none of them ACTUALLY SAYS THAT.
also, please…tell me that Jesus and a bunch of fishermen sitting around in the evenings drinking wine didn’t ever get wasted. come ON. also…drunk Jesus is MAYBE my most favorite thought…EVER.
February 19, 2010 11:50 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
gc1998 – Actually, I would disagree with you there. The Bible seems pretty clear against drunkenness – but drinking in moderation is fine, and as you mentioned, Jesus and the disciples did it. (Communion, anyone?)
Let’s try to stick to the to topic of self-denial – and not get mired down in debating particular behaviors.
February 19, 2010 11:55 AM
Natalie said…
haha. IET.
I told you it traumatized me… I had nightmares after I left the H.A. due to all the rules we were following for no reason.
February 19, 2010 12:12 PM
MDSF said…
Can self-denial practiced for the sake of self-denial really be considered self-denial?
Of course not. But it’s a fine line between doing it for the sake of self-denial and doing it to learn self-control.
February 19, 2010 12:46 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
MDSF – I think that is the crux of the matter. It is easy to think that doing X,Y,Z as self-denial makes us a “better Christian.” I think that anytime we engage in those thought processes we are heading in the wrong direction – effectively counting on our own righteousness… Instead of denying ourselves, we are actually puffing ourselves up.
The goal of self-denial should be something outside ourselves…i.e. I give up my right to something for the benefit of others – and not for my own benefit.
February 19, 2010 2:38 PM
Z said…
That is such a good Martin Luther Quote, Eric! I had no idea he said that! I love it! : )
February 19, 2010 3:18 PM
z said…
Exactly, RA. Suffering for the sake of others has some virtue. Suffering for the sake of suffering has no virtue.
February 19, 2010 3:25 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Just to clarify – I don’t mind debating the merits of drinking alcohol. Its a topic with good opinions on both sides – I just don’t want to sidetrack this particular comment thread. Hope that makes sense!
February 19, 2010 3:45 PM
katydid said…
RA, I agree–the topic of drinking alcohol should be discussed some time. Back to Eric’s comment:
“It all depends whether or not it starts and ends at a position of grace. When I’ve voluntarily practiced self-denial (e.g. fasting) it’s made me keenly aware of how self-absorbed I usually am (because I can think about nothing but food!), and thus heightened my awareness of my need to depend totally on God. It’s not that it makes me holier; it’s that it shows me my need of God’s grace to make me holy. (Kind of like the Law, as properly understood according to Galatians 3.)
On the other hand, “Self-denial” practiced for the sake of making yourself feel superior to other people (“namby-pamby Christians,” was that the phrase?) is actually self-gratification. There’s a reason “not by works” is correlated with “so that no one should boast” in Ephesians 2.”
Those are such good points on this subject (self-denial)-that it was worth repeating!
February 19, 2010 5:23 PM
shyvioletgirl said…
@gc1998 Drunk Jesus! LOL! One of my mom’s questions before my internship started was if I felt called not to fast, was that an option? She was basically told no.
I don’t understand why someone would choose to practice “self denial” and how that would reap self control. I know that for me, moderation works much better than cold turkey. I have been eating 1 piece of Valentine’s Day candy/ day to savor them and make them last. Eating more could result in a belly ache and then they’d be all gone sooner.
I know that in college I had a huge amount of “I’m better than these so called Christians because I have quiet times and don’t watch R rated movies &ct.”
February 20, 2010 8:52 AM
daniel williams said…
Great points brought up by many of these comments. My own thoughts reflect much of what has already been touched upon:
Self-denial is an important step toward the death of selfishness. Selfishness is perhaps the greatest obstacle to the “Christ-Life.” The problem with self-denial is that we are easily deceived in its pursuit. Mixed motives are often the uninvited companion of our efforts to put self to the side. Pride is most often at the root of every downfall. In practicing self-denial, pride often tilts us toward a “works” mentality. An important beginning point is to first define what self-denial is not. This is a simple process if approached with needed humility and an honest look into Scripture.
Many types of fasting are described and practiced. Even the principle of “moderation” is form of constant self-denial. Outward disciplines do affect inward realities, however, when inward reality inspires outward disciplines, there are greater immediate and long-term benefits.
Simply stated, there is a clear pattern of spiritual disciplines that involve self-denial practiced throughout the Old and New Testaments, and in particular, the life of Jesus. No doubt, any spiritual practice can slide into self-dependent works, but the benefits far outweigh the risks. The writings of the early Desert Fathers tracts many of the successes and failures of excessive practice of self-denial.
February 20, 2010 9:17 AM
Diane said…
I think one of my biggest revelations after I left the HA was that self-control isn’t actually something I can stir up in myself.
I was reading Galatians 5, and hit verses 22-23: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.”
These are verses I’ve known since I was little, but they suddenly clicked – the qualities listed here are results of the Spirit in your life. They are evidence of His presence. They have nothing to do with us or our own efforts.
By ourselves, we are not capable of producing any of them – love, joy, peace, OR self-control. Once I realized that, realized that my self is only controlled by the Spirit, it helped me to let go.
And it makes self-denial almost a non-issue. Because when you realize that your “self” can only be controlled by God, and you relinquish that responsibility to Him, it’s a constant practice of self-denial. You can just trust Him to keep the right balance of moderation in your life.
(I’m not saying that I’ve already achieved all this, or that I’m already perfect, but whenever I remember this, I have peace and know that my Father is in control. And He constantly reminds me that fruit is something that needs to grow and ripen, so I can have patience with the learning process…)
February 20, 2010 12:39 PM
