Teen Mania doesn’t give a rat’s ass that they are hurting interns. I’ve finally realized that.
Isn’t that shocking? Isn’t that scandalous? Isn’t it outrageous?
It’s absolutely maddening to me and outright unconscionable. It’s one thing to hurt someone by mistake or incompetence. It’s another thing to hear their story and refuse to apologize, make amends or provide restitution.
Every single time TM leadership has contacted me it has been to attempt to cover their asses and NEVER to apologize for what they’ve done. All they care about is keeping the machine going and if you get burnt up and spit out, well that’s just the price of doing business. With a steady stream of eager incoming interns, they don’t have to care about the ones already gone. They just have to keep the hype up so the newbies arrive fresh-faced and eager every August and January.
It’s sick.
And one day, they WILL answer for it. I tremble for them.
35 comments:
Anonymous said…
you too, will answer for the influence (good AND bad) you have been through this blog.
let that sink in.October 22, 2010 7:13 AM
Renae said…
Wow, two comments in and TM supporters are already pointing the finger back at you, RA! “Oh yeah? We’ll answer for our sins? Well, so will YOU!!!”
That’s the best they can come up with… still no apology or restitution. Your point has been proven.October 22, 2010 8:09 AM
Mynda said…
Well, the influence from this site has caused me to:
1. Recognize my judgmental behavior towards my family and loved ones, therefore causing me to ask for forgiveness and begin to have real relationships with them out of love.
2. Realize that I am saved by grace and I don’t have to carry around guilt that I am not the “World Changing” person that I thought I had to be in order to please God.
3. Helped me to realize that my assurance does not come from any person, but from what God thinks of me and what HE alone shows me as who he wants to be.
SOOOO…. you can be accountable to that. I have become a much more loving person towards my husband, children, family and God.
HHMMMmmmm….. let that sink in.October 22, 2010 8:13 AM
heartsfire said…
Lets see:
By grace through faith Jesus Christ has covered my sin.
Through this site I have started to feel the love of other Christians when all I saw from Teen Mania.
Because of this site I have found it within me to seek out and join a church that believes in love perfected in grace. I church where they don’t have to say “They are who they say they are” because it comes through in the love they show to all those around them. A place where the joy of the lord is really shared not because it’s a fear mandate but because the people are truly happy to be in the world around them. A place where they really are in the world and loving those in it instead of condemning people they have never really met.
I have finally felt like I was not an outcast in my faith and that is a real LIFE TRANSFORMING EVENT!October 22, 2010 8:22 AM
Albina said…
Because of this site I’ve realized that there is a different kind of Evangelical than the close minded, judgmental, works/behavior obsessed, Dominionist breed I grew up with and experienced in TM and were a big part of the reason I no longer have anything to do with the church.October 22, 2010 8:44 AM
Anonymous said…
I have learned that I cannot express a differing opinion without being told I’m a TM supporter or that I’m pointing a finger when I’m just suggesting the truth: RA will be accountable for any good/bad that has come from the site.
I have learned that when I have made comments in the past, they are remarkably responded to, in many cases, with defensive tone and often swearing.
I have heard of at least 2 persons who decided it was OK to give up on God because they saw so much hypocrity on this site.
I have heard awesome stories too – of freedom and of people finally have their stories heard. I just am glad I’m not RA. I don’t want to answer to what may have been negative and I didn’t even know about it.October 22, 2010 8:46 AM
mouse said…
Anon @ 8:46 = Works-based Legalist. By definition a TM supporter.
MouseOctober 22, 2010 9:08 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Anon – I’m sorry to hear that 2 people have decided to give up on God. That saddens me. I’d be happy to dialogue with both of those individuals. However, your attempt to equate the influence of this website with the influence of the Honor Academy is WOEFULLY misguided.
The readers of the site do not live on my compound. Readers do not work for me 31+ hours per week. Readers do not live by my rules.
I do not control my reader’s lives.
This is a website. People can choose if/when to read it. It takes about a minute per day.
You really can’t equate the two.
To your other point, yes of course we are all accountable to God for our actions. Thats why I’m really glad I’m not abusing people.October 22, 2010 9:16 AM
Shannon Kish said…
Since I came to this site (both the blog and the forums) I have realized the following:
1) I am not, and have not been, alone in feeling hopeless and trapped when it came to legalism taught by the HA.
2) I have found acceptance and love from Christians and non-christians who do not judge me because I do not believe in their god.
3) I have been forced to rethink some of the things I believed about christians and the christian god.
4) I have found a peace with knowing, understanding and dealing with the year I spent in the cult that is TM.
5) I have reconnected with old friends.
6) I have been encouraged when I felt down, lonely, upset, anxious, or hurt.
7) I have felt joy when I have been able to uplift someone else.
8) I have enjoyed discussions on taboo topics like sex, homosexuality, drug/alcohol use, cursing, etc with Christians and non-christians and have been able to share my thoughts on the topics without judgment or ridicule.
9) I have been able to feel a part of the LINE once again without the feeling of judgment, disgust, without being confronted, without feeling guilty AND the discussions have been open, honest, and welcoming despite their controversy. (Unlike the TMalumni fourms)
10) I have been encouraged by parents who have seen the pain that their child/children have gone through and wish to bring it to light.
11) I have been encouraged by the media response and outsider’s points of views.
12) I have been encouraged that there is at least 1 young person who will no longer be attending the HA because of the testimonies of people here.
13) I have felt free because I was able to share my story which has been kept inside for 10 years.
14) I have been encouraged by the fact that TM now knows that there are people watching and paying attention to them and that they have to walk on egg shells a bit more because of it.
THANK YOU RA for this site. Thank you for bringing together people with a common experience to a place where we can work through some of our hurts together.
Thank you for being brave enough to take the heat, to take the further abuse of current interns, staff, and TM supporters.
Thank you for being brave enough to face harassing phone calls and scary stalking-like behavior from people who claim to love the Lord.
Thank you for your willingness to expose the lies and dangerous doctrines of TM.
Thank you for being a loving and kind human being that has been so important to this community.
Thank you to the RA community for the friendship and the warmth and acceptance. Thank you not judging me for being different. Thank you for not proselytizing at me. Thank you the kind words, the shoulders to cry on, the laughter to share. Thank you for being brave enough to share your story with the world. Thank you for being brave enough to stand up for what is right.October 22, 2010 9:20 AM
Anonymous said…
Renae said…
Wow, two comments in and TM supporters are already pointing the finger back at you, RA! “Oh yeah? We’ll answer for our sins? Well, so will YOU!!!”
That’s the best they can come up with… still no apology or restitution. Your point has been proven.
——————————-
I am just curious- how come if we are TM supporters- we anserw for the sins of TM?
October 22, 2010 11:25 AMphoenix said…
anon@11:25 – I don’t know if it’s just me, but I didn’t take the above comments to mean supporters of TM will answer for the sins of TM. I think what the 1st anon (quite rudely) pointed out is that we all will have to answer for our own actions.
RA has pointed out repeatedly that TM’s actions hurt people, they should change the way they do thing so that SO MANY people are not hurt, used, abused… TM’s response is ‘we don’t care’. That’s not a cool attitude to have. and in my opinion it’s an especially hard pill to swallow coming from a “ministry” (<– I use that word very loosely) that marches to the tune of excellence, perfection, being the ‘cream of the crop’…
I think if anon 1 had made the point a little nicer it wouldn’t have been a big deal.October 22, 2010 11:57 AM
Anonymous said…
It’s interesting that the community of commenters here isn’t growing.October 22, 2010 12:19 PM
Anonymous said…
It’s interesting that many who comment totally miss the point and avoid the topic at hand.October 22, 2010 12:32 PM
Maurice Moss said…
@Anon @ 12:19 & 12:32: What are you trying to say?
Also, what evidence do you have to suggest that the community of commenters is not growing?
Furthermore, what “topic” are we trying to avoid?
Your posts confuses me. I think you are trying to insinuate something, but I don’t know what, and I don’t think it’s working.October 22, 2010 1:17 PM
Eric P. said…
OK, everybody, observe closely.
RA’s response to a report about two hurt people: “I’m sorry to hear that 2 people have decided to give up on God. That saddens me. I’d be happy to dialogue with both of those individuals.”
TM’s official response to reports from scores of hurt people: “It is impossible for a ministry so broad and diverse to satisfy every constituent…. The future is bright for Teen Mania Ministries and Honor Academy.”
And that is what we’re talking about. See?
TM offends me not just as a Christian and as a human being but as a former customer service representative. You or your company hurt somebody, you say “I’m so sorry; how can we fix it?” Common Decency 101. (The response site offends me as a copyeditor too, but enough about my hats.)
Also, anybody up for collecting some pro-TM comments to submit to Passive-Aggressive Notes?October 22, 2010 1:28 PM
Anonymous said…
I sent Mr. Hasz an email to discuss some of my concerns in a kind an friendly way, particularly about ESOAL. His response? Well, 4500 interns have done it and 4000 plus loved it. Until that email I was very willing to give both sides the benefit of the doubt. But I do believe now some people don’t care, and that makes me heartbroken. I have shown some of the videos to my pastors and other Christians I am close with-all who have supported TM by bringing our youth to ATF etc to make sure I wasn’t being overdramatic. One Pastor’s quote “it makes me sick”. This is a pastor who runs a Master’s Commission and understands what its like to influence young people. Wasn’t Jesus about the 1? He left the 99 for the 1! So if 1 intern has been hurt that isn’t okay. The fact that hundreds have been hurt by the many abusive practices at TM…it’s inexcusable.October 22, 2010 3:51 PM
J2 said…
It is for God to judge a person’s heart, not man. I don’t think this is as simple as add how much good one has done, compare it to how much harm, and now we can tell who is genuinely good. I believe that if someone’s heart is in the right place even the mistakes they make can be sanctified, and even evil people can inadvertently do good. We can look at the fruit a person or ministry bears and prayerfully decide for ourselves whether we think it is worth supporting, whether it is worthy of our respect or even our dollars, but we cannot know for sure what God thinks about it and we should be careful to make pronouncements for Him.October 22, 2010 4:21 PM
Steve Lumbley said…
Every single person who has been exposed to the false gospel espoused by Ron Luce and Teen Mania has been harmed by it. Some just don’t realize it yet.October 22, 2010 4:56 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
J2 – I agree that we should be careful not to judge on God’s behalf. However, Jesus did say this, “And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.”
That’s pretty scary and that’s why I tremble for them.October 22, 2010 5:04 PM
J2 said…
I actually meant what I wrote to be supportive of you, RA, but I can see where it seems to go the other way.
I think it’s ridiculous that some people are saying, “But I know of two people who fell away because of RA so she’s just as bad!!” The situations are far too different to be comparable and what it really is is a diversionary tactic. The issue at hand isn’t, “is RA better than TM?” the issue is, “is TM deeply problematic?” And the answer to that is yes. Is it likely that Hasz and Teen Mania has become corrupted and fallen away from God? I think so. But only God knows for sure. We can judge their fruit, but I think we cannot know their motives.
We can and we should judge their actions and the fruit of their ministry. I agree that I wouldn’t want to be Dave Hasz on Judgement Day (not sure I really want to be myself either! I tremble for us all while I thank Jesus for his blood and his grace).October 22, 2010 5:39 PM
J2 said…
One more thing because I’m afraid I’m not explaining myself well:
If you know someone who uses the word “retarded” as an insult, are you more likely to change their behavior by tell them they are a bigot or will you have better luck if you treat them as if they made a mistake and would surely want to know their speech may be hurting someone? The latter, right? When you judge someone’s character they get defensive and they don’t want to change. It’s true that even when you stick with calling out actions, some people are going to go all, “DON’T CALL ME A BIGOT!” and refuse to change, but your chances are still best if you stick to dealing with actions. Plus, who knows? Maybe the person really didn’t realize their actions were hurtful and they’ll be grateful for the information. Grace is wonderful.
If your friend keeps on calling things “retarded,” saying she doesn’t think it’s that big of a deal, or she has a friend with Downs who thinks it’s hilarious that she says “retarded,” or whatever, can you then safely assumed your friend is bigoted in this area? Probably. But can you ever really know? No. Maybe she genuinely thinks what she’s doing is fine and she genuinely does love developmentally disabled people. It’s still not really helpful to say she personally is a bigot. She’ll just further entrench herself in her position. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t continue to call her out on her actions, especially if she keeps using this word in front of people who you know for a fact are being hurt by it. But even if she is an awful person, applying that label doesn’t help. Continuing to speak the truth in love might.
However, I think we can all understand if one day you finally get so pissed off by the continued hurt you see being inflicted on other people and you flat-out call your friend a jerk. 🙂 And it shouldn’t matter if you yourself have your own blind spot. Your friend’s actions are still wrong even if you aren’t perfect.
Clear as mud? I hope that made sense.October 22, 2010 6:16 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
J2 – Thanks for clarifying. 🙂October 22, 2010 6:51 PM
Brad K said…
I’m not certain that they don’t care. They is a very inclusive term, and I’m confident that at least some there do. Whether or not “they” respond in a way that pleases the injured (including myself) isn’t really within my control, nor is it worth me getting further injured about. I’m not in a relationship with Teen Mania; I’m in a relationship with other friends.
Those who are not my friends hurt me, and even those that I call my friends hurt me from time to time. What’s a guy to do?
Forgive. Heal. Move on. Have hope for the next adventure. Be Gracious to myself and extend the same Grace (Love and Acceptance) to others.
…
My thought is this: even if they don’t care… should I really care?
We can help each other here, and we can share. But if the conversation–as a whole–is just going to become Teen Mania bashing, then I for one am not interested. There are simply far too many better conversations with people that I’d rather enjoy and SOOO many other positive things to discuss.
I’m not telling anyone else what to do. I’m not suggesting that someone who’s hurt “suck it up” and move on before he or she is ready.
Is all I’m saying is we deserve more than bashing other people–even if those people have bashed us and others. We can’t control them, and we have our own lives to live now. And yeah, we can raise awareness, but maybe it’s like Ghandi suggested, that sometimes, we have to let people do bad things so that eventually, they’ll see how ridiculous and inappropriate their own actions are.
Teen Mania is a privately held, non-profit organization that was started by one person’s experience with God and/or religion.
There are a lot worser issues to address than them, and there are a lot more reasons for all of us to live than to simply attack one thing that some believe has been or is unjust.
…
My thoughts aren’t meant to be final or authoritative… I’m just adding my two cents to the dialog for today. Cheers.October 23, 2010 11:28 AM
phoenix said…
Brad I appreciate your your thought’s, and your right, ‘we’ can’t change ‘them’. Teen Mania is going to do what’s it’s going to do, and I have no control over that. But I think we should care. Part of my issue is, I was hurt badly by TM, forever changed, and not for the better. But for 15+ years I though it was just me. Along comes a blog and I find out that it wasn’t just me that was hurt and forever changed, it was my friends to, and the same issues (and more, ESOAL anyone?) have continued for 15 years since I left.
I’m ok with taking 10 minutes out of my fabulous fun filled to publicly say, Teen Mania is NOT what it looks like from the outside, your 18-20 year old kid will probably treated like dirt, told they are a looser, live in 3rd world like conditions, worked 60-80 hours a week, and may likely need years of therapy to ‘get over it’.
Yeah, I’ve got 10 minutes for that.
I’m not saying *you* should care, if you don’t feel like it, but I care.October 23, 2010 12:21 PM
Anonymous said…
Brad K,
I think what’s different about the feelings people are expressing is that they were and feel abused. If you have never been abused it would be very hard to relate to people who have been. I don’t know what your life experience is, so maybe you have had experiences with this. However, are those who feel abused supposed to “forgive” and move on and not stand up for those who are currently being abused and help those who have already been victimized? When you see abuse, you have to stop it-you can’t just walk by and decide it’s more peaceful to not “bash” the abuser. I do understand what you are saying, and I don’t ever want to purposely hurt Teen Mania, I had so many good experiences there. But some of the things they are doing are wrong and outright damaging and wounded people for YEARS. People are hurting for years. That’s not the same as a friend offending you or hurting your feelings. People have been depressed, suicidal, self injuring, distanced from the Lord, needing therapy, not able to trust spiritual authority…and the list goes on. It has to be stopped. And that’s not bashing, that’s just standing up for the weak and opressed. I think God would be pleased with that.October 23, 2010 3:16 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Brad, love your input, as always. Speaking for myself, I wrote this as a response to a very recent comment from TM leadership. For me, it was the “straw the broke the camels back” and finally opened my eyes to see that senior TM leadership – Ron, Dave, Heath – don’t care about the hurting interns AT ALL. All they seem to care about is preserving their image. Its frustrating and maddening.October 23, 2010 3:29 PM
Curious George said…
Anon @ 3:16
A great point and beautifully stated. Thank you.October 24, 2010 12:43 AM
Brandon said…
May I offer a video that to you, RA, may be a little comforting and encouraging, and to those like TM is a serious warning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do7OYvY9X9I
My wife came from the HA. Yeah, after our long, very personal talks about what goes on there, and what I personally have gone through which God has opened my eyes to, I think I can speak to this. There’s a lot of Scripture in this video and the message is excellent! Stand strong RA. You’re doing a great job here! Love what God is doing here!October 24, 2010 10:45 AM
Brad K said…
@RA: I’m really sorry to hear that… what a bummer. Have you posted these documents/responses anywhere so that we can review them for ourselves?
And for those who wonder: I was unfortunately hurt by/at several people at TM–as were several of my friends. I didn’t even realize much of the injury until years later, but again, to state my personal position on the matter, I’m inclined to believe that TM is not really the problem: the main problems (to me) seem to stem from very basic aspects of an evolved and now mostly counterfeit Evangelical Christianity out of which TM came to be.
This doesn’t mean that everyone there believes the same, nor that all the leadership there are hopeless. Furthermore, I don’t doubt the sincerity of at least most of the people there… I’m of the mindset that most people are honestly doing the best that they can with what they have been given themselves. And of those that I do doubt the sincerity and/or sanity, I pity them as much as I pity those who are hurt by them because it is completely natural for hurting and confused people to hurt and confuse others.
As for caring or not caring if TM cares or not… *and again, this is just personal opinion, I kinda feel like the blog might be helping to raise awareness in some ways, and at other times, I kinda feel like TM is going to be TM no matter what. If the issues do lie in such foundational differences of beliefs (as I think most of us would agree), then until people who actually believe differently are in the leadership there, I just doubt that we will be able to come to a full reconciliation or agreement, regardless of both side’s sincere efforts.
If this is the case–if TM is going to be TM, and after years and years of trying to bring up concerns, still nothing is happening, it seems that the advice I should take is to invest much more of my time and energies elsewhere: into living my own life with God and others and not putting unhealthy burdens or responsibilities on my shoulders.
Because I am not responsible for anyone but myself, and even then, I need a great deal of Love from God and others even to make it through some days, you know?
If everyone can just do this for me: think about what you’re doing on this blog, and think about your own emotional health when you spend time here. Then decide if this is helping you heal or adding to your own hurt… this is my only real concern. Because at least for me, if I start bringing up everything that someone has done to hurt me, it’s good to an extent. But after a while, I think it actually starts to hurt me even more and make me miss out on other things in life: like the present. (CONTINUE ON NEXT POST)October 24, 2010 2:37 PM
Brad K said…
Closing thoughts:
I’m just not so concerned for TM anymore. I do love people (and interns that I don’t know too) who are there, but it’s not my responsibility; I’ve tried to carry enough the world on my shoulders for a long time, and it hasn’t worked out for me.
Maybe this seems insensitive… maybe I’m making a mistake or missing an opportunity, but I gave them 3 years of my life already, and I’m not there anymore. I would hate to look back and realize that I spent time on such a small thing (that wasn’t interested in listening, for the most part–not even saying they’re wrong for that either) when maybe there was something more epic to be discovered: my own life.
So I don’t know. Just throwing more thoughts out there for the general populace of this site to ponder.
I love you guys, and I know that TM has made some massive mistakes that have hurt people, but I do try and be realistic as well: mistakes are mistakes. And while I feel confident that some (SOME) people at Teen Mania treated me maliciously, most (imho) were just making mistakes.
And can I blame people for their ignorance? And even if I point things out, can I force a person to see? Can I force someone to be humble?
I can barely do these things for myself on the best and most honest of days, you know?
…
So God help us all (inc. Evangelical Christians and Teenage Maniacs) to be healed from a whole lot of religious BS and a whole lot of hurts that stem from religion and life experience in general. Because if we’re suffering from deception within religion, this means that those before us (and those in charge) are also suffering from the same.
Agree with me or not, and regardless of how things appear to happen in life, this is how it is: the hurting and the deceived hurt and deceive whether they want to or not. Hell… many Germans actually believed that they were doing the right thing during WWII. It’s all part of the same insanity.
…
Thanks for listening and cheers.October 24, 2010 2:38 PM
Brad K said…
Oh and Shannon… thanks for pointing out your positive experiences with the site. I really enjoyed the positive shout outs, and I agree with so many of the pro’s of this community. YEAH. =)October 24, 2010 2:40 PM
heartsfire said…
To me the lives of the 500+ 18-21 year olds that are there every year is not a “small thing”. To me keeping people’s eyes on what is going on here could help future college aged individuals grow closer to God in safe environments. When people turn away and when people don’t come here to be support to those that are newly hurting like Raven a few posts back they start to feel like even among the hurt they will be hurt because those hurt before do not care. I feel exceeding love and honor in coming here and speaking to those younger than me that are going through these like hurts. I feel a great deal of peace in getting to vent about how horrible it is to see these things continue when there are so many hurting. Brad, I understand where you would want to walk on and perhaps your life has called you to a different station in ministry however some of us find peace and love in helping those that are more recently hurt and bringing attention to what is an on going problem. Nothing has ever gotten better by those who care just giving up and walking away.October 24, 2010 2:52 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Brad – totally love your thoughts. I do agree – in the sense that yes, I don’t want to let TM continue to upset me emotionally. Yes, I’ve already given them enough of my life. Totally on board with you there! Unfortunately, for me personally, for the time being, these issues are not in the past – but the present, and part of the way I process them is by talking about them here. So yes, I do agree with you, but current circumstances don’t allow me to “not care” so to speak. Believe me, I wish they did.
And, to clarify further, I definitely think its possible to care about the current and future interns without “bashing” TM or getting so worked up that it keeps you from emotional health or balance – and that is not something I want to stir up. I just guess that for me, I’ve got to be honest about where I’m at – and this is where I’m at. I’ll try to post more this week about how/why I’ve gotten there and why this is all so personal to me as of late. Thanks again for your well thought out input.October 24, 2010 8:05 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Heartsfire – Also totally support your viewpoint. I think part of it is – what are you called to do? What is on your heart? Not every recovered/recovering alumni is called to be in this community for the long term. For many, its kind of a way station – stop in, get nourished and refilled and go on your way. We absolutely need people here to help the newbies, but not everyone can or will.
Its just like the body of Christ – we aren’t all hands, livers or ears – but we can all appreciate what the other parts do.October 24, 2010 9:59 PM
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