Ron Luce often compares being a strong Christian to weight-lifting. You have to work hard over a long period of time to see results, you can’t just lift weights for one day and expect to be ripped.
Is this an appropriate analogy for the Christian life? Do you think self-effort leads to spiritual strength?
Discuss.
113 comments:
Anonsays:April 29, 2010 at 7:32 AMReply
I have always believed that you have to go through a trial of your faith in order to receive a witness that the Gospel is true (also known as a change of heart). I have seen, in some cases, where a change of heart occurs very soon, and other times where it takes years- it depends on the person. I think you need to put in effort, such as reading the scriptures, praying, and going to church and also taking time to ponder the things you read and taking time after you pray to wait for an impression or confirmation about the things you asked in your prayer.
Bensays:April 29, 2010 at 8:04 AMReply
“you can’t just lift weights for one day and expect to be ripped…. but we’ll still expect you to be.”
moriahsays:April 29, 2010 at 8:55 AMReply
Even though I don’t relate to the weight lifting analogy, i do agree that spirituality is something that needs care and nurture. Every morning, i go out to my garden and look carefully at every plant, watering some, pruning others, creating helpful structures and soil for the plants to grow better. Although gardening is one of the oldest spiritual analogies in the book, I still find it useful to apply these concepts to matters of the heart and spirit. Growing anything, whether it is in your heart or garden, takes time, nurture, patience, consistency . . . so in a way, i understand what Mr. Luce is trying to say, but vehemently disagree with the way in which TM tries to implement these values.
laynesays:April 29, 2010 at 9:36 AMReply
I agree with Moriah in that personal growth requires a certain amount of effort and nurturing, but I disagree that there is anything we can do to make ourselves any more or less “christian”. I don’t think that Ron Luce intended this, but I remember that when I heard him use this analogy (and others) when I was a teenager, I took it to mean that I needed to work at being saved (Jesus wasn’t enough).
Eric P.says:April 29, 2010 at 9:47 AMReply
The only “weightlifting” analogies I can think of in Scripture are:
“Praise be to the Lord, to God our Savior, who daily bears our burdens.” (Psalm 68:19)
“Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.” (Galatians 6:2)
Lifting your own weights doesn’t seem to be part of the process here.
Our spiritual “muscles” develop most when we’re lifting the weight off someone else, or when we’re trusting God to lift what we can’t.
The Bible’s analogies of spiritual growth are just that–growth. Like “abiding in the vine,” a child becoming a man, a student going through school, a tree putting down roots by a river, a bush being tended by a gardener, a grain of wheat falling into the ground and dying.
The Bible further says that severity to your body “is of no value against fleshly indulgence” (Colossians 2).
In short: Luce’s analogy is correct that maturity develops over time, but terminally weak in implying that our own effort has that much to do with it.
Anonymoussays:April 29, 2010 at 12:22 PMReply
No WAY!!! I think that living the Christian life is supposed to be EASY!!! … the bible says that the road to Heaven is WIDE and there are MANY different paths to get there! …
We as Christians should just sit back and let the butterflies take us to heaven!
Nunquam Honorablussays:April 29, 2010 at 12:46 PMReply
Anonymous, I think you missed the point and are making false assumptions about the premise of this post.
Eric P.says:April 29, 2010 at 1:03 PMReply
Anonymous–Given the choice between resting in Christ and working hard to be snide…
Liz BRsays:April 29, 2010 at 1:32 PMReply
Anonymous at 12:22. . .the emphasis of this post is whether or not self-effort is what leads to a spiritually rich life. There are plenty of people who would argue that while a spiritual life is not easy, it does come naturally to them.
laynesays:April 29, 2010 at 1:51 PMReply
“We as Christians should just sit back and let the butterflies take us to heaven!”
So, wait, now we’re saying that Jesus will only redeem us if we earn it? I’m so confused. I think I’ll stick with the butterflies.
Anonymoussays:April 29, 2010 at 2:11 PMReply
That’s what I like to call,- “assholier than thou”.
Anonymoussays:April 29, 2010 at 2:11 PMReply
Heck, no!! It is that kind of belief in spiritual success by self-effort that led me into an abyss of spiritual depression, despairing of an otherwise perfect and happy life. Just this a.m. I read Habakkuk 3:19, which says, “The Lord God is my strength, and he makes my feet like the feet of the deer, and he enables me to walk upon the heights.” Former big-shot me thought I had it all together enough to try to succeed in the highest places through a well-intentioned self-effort. Path to disaster. “In repentance and rest is your salvation; in quietness and trust is your strength. But you would have none of it.” (Isaiah 30:15)
Just a second ago, I was away from my desk pondering how my right-standing and confidence is based on God’s approval of me and not on my good performance. (I’m ‘good’ with Him because of Christ.) It was really hitting to the core, since I often try to people-please. I felt prompted to return to the computer and happened to catch the time before it changed. It said, “2:22”. I know God uses numbers to symbolize different things, so I looked up online the scriptural significance of the number 2. Before, my only knowledge of this was that sometimes it means “separation” and “dividing.” Guess what the first website I came to said? “Two can symbolize agreement on truth, such as it takes ‘two witnesses’ to confirm something as truth in the Old Testament.” God quickened me and I realized He was saying, “Agree with Me on this. I am trying to confirm in your life the truth that your right-standing is based on what I did for you, never on your performance.” 3 symbolizes completion and totalness (As in, “Holy, holy, holy.”) He wants every part of my thinking and existence to be totally in agreement with the truth of what his Son accomplished for my behalf. My *only* confidence is Christ. There is no room for my performance to add anything to his acceptance of me. I’m justified, regardless of my ongoing performance as a Christian, by His finished work. I start and end there.
Thanks.
Anonymoussays:April 29, 2010 at 2:16 PMReply
Yay for “butterflies.”
Anonymoussays:April 29, 2010 at 2:59 PMReply
Look for the analogy… you’re experiencing challenging things in life, not physically lifting weights (or bearing burdens).
Being a Christian is hard!
Does God carry us? Yes.
Does working harder make us more acceptable to Him? No.
This isn’t about performing (self-effort) either. The topic is becoming a strong Christian. Vigorous effort, dedication, enthusiasm and personality do not mean you are a strong Christian able to weather any storm. That kind of maturity only comes through education and living through hard things – weight lifting in the analogy Ron was using.
shannonsays:April 29, 2010 at 4:49 PMReply
To me the problem is the terminology “strong Christian”. This concept haunted me for years even before I got involved with TMM. Becoming a strong Christian was my goal for a very long time, until it occurred to me it’s all about me trying to become something better so God will love me more, or I will be worth being called “Christian”.
This is no longer my goal. I find it more valuable to focus on Jesus. My goal is to be with Him and learn who He is. Everything else then falls into place if you focus on Him.
It’s not that discipline and education are bad–of course not! But they put the focus on me and how hard I’m working. They detract from what Christ is doing in me.
Anonymoussays:April 29, 2010 at 4:54 PMReply
Its hard to pick someone apart from one analogy without hearing how they explained it. Here is a scripture we’re all familiar with.
1 Corinthians 9:25-27
“Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.”
Ron Luce isn’t very holy, because instead of comparing the Christian walk to the athletics of running and boxing he compared it to weight lifting.
Anonymoussays:April 29, 2010 at 4:56 PMReply
Explenation from the last statement: of course it is God who puts the will and power within us to work.
Eric P.says:April 29, 2010 at 5:20 PMReply
I can’t keep track of the Anonymi anymore, but I think 2:11 wins.
The passage in 1 Corinthians 9 is not talking about “the Christian walk” at all. The point of the chapter is that we should abstain from non-sinful things that might offend people we’re trying to evangelize (see v. 19-23). The same way an athlete uses self-control and avoid good things (like sweets) to win a race, we should use self-control and avoid non-sinful behaviors that would offend someone who might otherwise consider the Gospel. Then we will “win” (not our salvation) but their attention and perhaps their souls.
CarrieSaumsays:April 29, 2010 at 6:06 PMReply
Love BEARS all things. Not us. No heaving lifting required. The ONLY thing to do is Love. Love God, Love People. Without Love, it doesn’t matter how much scripture you know, how clearly you understand concepts and precepts, or how much you can do in the name of Jesus. Without His Love, everything else is pointless.
Sorry to sound like a broken record. 🙂
Anonymoussays:May 1, 2010 at 12:25 PMReply
Well said CarrieSaum and Eric P.
Curtis Romanosays:May 4, 2010 at 4:02 AMReply
I think a lot of people comments on this topic are negative for the sake of being anti-TM. To be honest I don’t care what happens to TM it could become the most successful ministry in the world or it could collapse. Either way my heart wouldn’t change it’s heart rate one bpm. I agree with Eric P Apr 20 9:47. However when you do heavy lifting it isn’t just you doing it. It’s the steroids (kidding). But no you have a trainer, you have supplements, you have a diet, knee wraps, back belt etc. It is not just you doing it by yourself.
Shannon Kishsays:May 4, 2010 at 8:21 AMReply
Curtis, I think you see pain and hurt as negativity.
Curtis Romanosays:May 4, 2010 at 9:05 AMReply
Pain and hurt isn’t negativity. But look at Ron’s comment. Then look at everyone else’s. Many of them missed his simple point. I stated I think they disagree with him just to be anti-TM.
Shannon Kishsays:May 4, 2010 at 9:10 AMReply
I agree, pain and hurt is NOT negativity. But, that seems to be the exact opposite of what you believe.
Which comment of RL’s are you talking about?
And Curtis, let’s be real. Was it not you that stated “Personally I think it is ridiculous to have people cry about their poor wittle feelings hurt from something 10 yrs ago or however many and come make a blog to complain. Get over it life goes on. At least they aren’t being shot at, blown up, or decapitated. Christians need to grow some thick skin. If it was that bad then they should have left.”
To me, that sounds like you are discounting each and every one of our experiences and chalking it up to “poor wittle feelings” being hurt.
Curtis Romanosays:May 4, 2010 at 10:18 AMReply
I was talking about the weight lifting comment.
Curtis Romanosays:May 4, 2010 at 10:18 AMReplyThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Curtis Romanosays:May 4, 2010 at 10:37 AMReply
My bad I admitted that I made those statements on the Board of Directors Update. Unfortunately the administrator keeps deleting my post. So if you want to know my reasons why please e-mail me romanocurtis@yahoo.com or you can call me 314-488-2762 (Please Note I am in Afghanistan, this number is a Skype number It will not cost you any extra but be mindful of time change) I’ll be going to bed in about 3-4 hours.
Eric P.says:May 4, 2010 at 12:07 PMReply
Curtis– Why are you whining on and on about somebody deleting your comment on some website? Don’t you know there are people out there being starved and beaten in prison? Kind of makes your little complaint about the enforcement of a comment policy seem pretty insignificant, doesn’t it?
Or… do you actually believe that when something happens that you don’t like, even if it wasn’t as spectacular as what happened in Darfur, it still matters because it was hurtful to you, and you matter as an individual? And that therefore you’re justified in complaining because, however little the extent, you were offended?
There’s this thing called “empathy.” Interestingly, the lack of it is often a sign of someone who’s been through abuse and hasn’t recovered, or who is an abuser themselves.
Curtis Romanosays:May 4, 2010 at 12:43 PMReply
I’m not complaining. I state it was unfortunate because I had some points to share I feel sorry for you all that you missed them. The administrator has his rights and used them. One way or another doesn’t make the way I live my life any differently. How much justification really exist on the internet. Imagine how justified you all would be had you had the spine to discuss the issues with the people you actually had a problem with face to face.
I don’t remember Paul needing empathy when he was shipwrecked, or stoned, or jailed, or any of those examples. Empathy is something so desired in America but it is not so sought out throughout war torn countries. Why is that? Because they just want to survive. Empathy is the last things running through the back of their mind.
Recovering Alumnisays:May 4, 2010 at 12:43 PMReply
Curtis, you are welcome to share your opinions and engage in a discussion here. You are NOT welcome to belittle others’ experiences.
Shannon Kishsays:May 4, 2010 at 1:07 PMReply
Curtis,
I read your points on the alumni site and am NOT interested in reading them again. From what I understand you believe that emotional issues are minor as you stated- (the following is from the alumni forum) “YES GROW THICK SKIN. Paul was whipped, shipwrecked, stoned yet never do I remember him saying he was abused in anyway. Yet Americans complain of emotional problems.”
You think that because Americans, including us, have the “cush life” we have “self-pity” and therefore are “weak”
I think that sums up your points. In which, I am VERY glad that RA will not allow them here.
Oh, and you said “I have not belittled you. You allowed yourself to be belittled.”
So in essence, girl who abused- I did not abuse you, you allowed yourself to be abused.
Curtis Romanosays:May 4, 2010 at 1:27 PMReply
Shannon, for the most part yes. DOES ANYONE HERE FEEL THEIR EXPERIENCE WAS COMPARITIVE TO BEING RAPED? (not spiritually raped, but literally?)
Curtis Romanosays:May 4, 2010 at 1:30 PMReply
Oh you did forget where I mentioned I have no problem with confrontation. I actually enjoy it. But when you confront someone do so to their face right away. This way for one the memory doesn’t leave them over the incident. and two you know you can walk away with your head high knowing you did what you had to.
laynesays:May 4, 2010 at 1:42 PMReply
In that case, Curtis, I am confronting you “to your face”. Grow up, kid.
Anonymoussays:May 4, 2010 at 1:49 PMReply
*applause*
Eric P.says:May 4, 2010 at 2:27 PMReply
Curtis:
“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.” –Paul (Galatians 5:22-23)
The fruit of the Honor Academy is a person who thinks he shouldn’t show empathy (i.e. gentleness, kindness, patience, goodness, love) to his neighbors.
Also, it’s well documented that the effects of severe spiritual abuse are comparable to the long-term psychological effects of rape. So you’re showing your ignorance as well as your hardheartedness.
(When you said you “enjoy confrontation,” did you mean you liked to be confronted? I hope that was it. Also, consider the above said to your face.)
Robbiesays:May 4, 2010 at 2:33 PMReply
I’ve been sitting back reading these smug and disgusting comments from Curtis…but I just can’t take anymore. Check out the forums, Curtis…you will find people there that, quite literally, have experiences with Teen Mania that DO involve being sexually violated at the hands of leadership. In all your arrogance, did you ever stop to think that, “Hey, maybe some people actually HAVE been raped/sexually violated because of their involvement with
Teen Mania and maybe I should be sensitive to them?” Of course you didn’t.
Also, just because someone *hasn’t* been sexually violated at the hands of Teen Mania does NOT make their hurts any less valid or real.
Cesnasays:May 4, 2010 at 2:38 PMReply
I find it amusing that Curtis thinks he’s a big boy for confronting us ‘face to face’ on these issues. By his own logic, he shouldn’t even care this site exists. :]
I think people need to wear their big-boy panties and get over the fact that people need a safe place to come and recover from spiritual abuse and bad doctrine. I’m fairly certain Jesus never was all ‘GUYS. STOP WHINING. YOUR FEELINGS DON’T MATTER. BAW BAW BAW’
I’m also fairly certain that David did a lot of ‘whining’ in the book of Psalms. Read your Bible, Curtis. You might learn something. Your lack of compassion and grace is exactly why this site is required.
Love is the greatest commandment. Not preserving TM.
I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again.
If you are SO HARDCORE you can’t tolerate those in the spiritual infirmary… then why are you wasting your time here, instead of being on the front lines? This site is clearly not for you. Stop wasting your time. I’m sure God isn’t patting you on the back right now. “Good job Curtis, good job. You show those brokenhearted namby pamby wimps. Good job at ignoring half the Bible. You’re awesome.”
:I Uh, no.
Cesnasays:May 4, 2010 at 2:42 PMReply
Also: after reading through all of Curtis’ posts, I feel as if my intelligence and faith in humanity was literally raped. So there’s that.
MMsays:May 4, 2010 at 2:51 PMReply
@ everyone, Curtis is the kind of guy that likes to stir things up, just to stir them up. He really does not care, if we had issues or not. His knowledge is way better then ours. He knows way more then we do since he servers/leads in many areas/roles of ministery, he is by far the Elite Christian we should all strive to be. I think i need to go have a quite time just by his utter example of the Elite christain he is. Wow Curtis, thank you.
Nunquam Honorablussays:May 4, 2010 at 2:55 PMReply
Wow, MM, you’re right; I think Jesus could learn a thing or two from this Curtis guy.
Anonymoussays:May 4, 2010 at 3:09 PMReply
its interesting that you guys treat the people who disagree with you the way that you say they treat you. just think about the way you come across in your comments….this is for both sides of the spectrum to think of
lets show some maturity here guys on BOTH ends
Cesnasays:May 4, 2010 at 4:13 PMReply
I think the way Curtis has been handled is all the maturity he deserves.
Eric P.says:May 4, 2010 at 4:43 PMReply
Fair advice on the whole, Anon–however, I think we should also acknowledge that there’s a difference between aggression and defense. Both may (for instance) involve the same act of hitting, but the moral intentions are very different.
Also, Curtis did say “I have no problem with confrontation…” which surely counts as asking for it!
Still, it is worthwhile to recognize that, since (unlike our “elite warrior” aggressors) we are free from the theology of spiritual abuse, we don’t have to be like that. They do, and that’s a pity.
Anonymoussays:May 4, 2010 at 4:55 PMReply
Cesna, I have no words….
Good thoughts Eric P….something for all of us to keep in mind though is that just because someone is “asking for it” doesn’t mean its up to us to dish it out out especially when we’re behaving in a way that those that don’t agree with us would to us, does that make sense? Bottom line is how can we be taken seriously for saying that those who don’t agree need to not be so harsh when we’re just as harsh right back. Maybe its like saying we are elite in not being elite, lol 🙂
MMsays:May 4, 2010 at 5:01 PMReply
@Anon, notice my comment was Sarcasm.
The way he was coming off was as if he knew better, that we have no issues.
if you are going to have a blind eye and just use blanket statements and christan fluff answer is just an insult
Recovering Alumnisays:May 4, 2010 at 6:30 PMReply
I’m sorry I had to be away from my computer nearly all day. Otherwise, I would have deleted more of Curtis’ insensitive comments.
By and large, I don’t think the other comments are inappropriate – they are mirroring his thoughts back to him so that he might understand what he is actually saying. What he says genuinely, we say sarcastically, in an attempt to show how empty and vapid it is. That’s my take on it, but I certainly understand why others would disagree.
As much as is in my power, I try not to let these comments through in the first place…but alas, I can’t be at the computer 24/7.
Philip Esays:May 4, 2010 at 6:44 PMReply
My two cents. It seems to me that Curtis comments are a spillover from something else. It seems as if it’s wounds that haven’t healed that are speaking out.
Perhaps attempts to actually communicate with him and to draw him in would be more beneficial than responding in the same vein as he started.
Turn the other cheek, do not repay evil for evil, while also not letting your good be spoken evil of.
Shannon Kishsays:May 4, 2010 at 10:12 PMReply
Philip, I can see that. But, I would struggle with trying to draw him in as he hasn’t really shown empathy or compassion but rather complete disregard for us, namely me.
Philip Esays:May 4, 2010 at 10:29 PMReply
Well, from my perspective, one of the reasons that I am a functional person was because I was drawn in by a certain individual quite against my will.
I guess my thought process is more along the lines of “Is responding out of anger going to help anyone in the situation, including myself?” I think the answer to that is no.
Granted, I’m not saying don’t challenge his statements. I think they’re quite erroneous. I just think that responding with a gentle answer turns away wrath. It’s not the refutation that I disagree with, and I’m not even going to say that the responses are necessarily wrong, but I don’t know that they really do any good either.
Curtis Romanosays:May 4, 2010 at 10:50 PMReplyThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Curtis Romanosays:May 4, 2010 at 11:30 PMReply
Phillip my main intention is to have people put things into perspective. Rather than take a step back and think about it, all of you dismiss what I say because I come off as blunt.
Philip Esays:May 4, 2010 at 11:49 PMReply
Curtis,
You are saying you are blunt. I am a very blunt person myself. I’ve presented arguments opposed to the viewpoints of RA and other regulars on the blog. The problem isn’t bluntness, the problem is that you are being rude as well as being blunt. The two are not synonymous.
If your aim is to cause people to put things into perspective, it probably isn’t a wise tactic to present your position in such an offensive way that no one is going to listen to it.
You could present everything you said in a civil manner and then your arguments would be weighed by the people they were presented to on their own weight. If you come in full of rudeness, your arguments are never truly heard at all.
I could point you to the same scripture that I pointed the rest of the blog towards. “A gentle answer turns away wrath.”
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 12:13 AMReply
Point taken on the rudeness. Let’s try this again then. Every one look at your lives…Compare it to someone being shot at, starving to death, Christians in the 10-40 window, someone being raped, etc.. Really how bad is our lives as Americans or even for your Canucks? We as Americans live so cush and so comfortable how bad really is our lives?If you really look at lives who are in survival mode their main concern is survival. They are not concerned with traffic or the line at McDonald’s. Their concern is sleeping somewhere safe, eating, and breathing (no particular order).
Recovering Alumnisays:May 5, 2010 at 12:16 AMReply
Curtis – I see your point, but don’t agree with your logic. Yes, people in other countries definitely have it worse – but pain is relative. Should the guy who is paralyzed from the waist down not mourn and grieve his situation just because he bunks next to a guy that is paralyzed by the neck down?
No one here is saying they have it worse than the people getting machete chopped in Sudan. We are talking about what we know – our problems and our journey. And, believe it or not, God is interested in that. He knows every sparrow that drops to the ground.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 12:33 AMReply
No he shouldn’t mourn and grieve. Their are plenty of military veterans who think positive over their losses and find ways to continue to enjoy life. http://www.peterson.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123077954 their are many other stories.
I’d also encourage you all (personal opinion every American should purchase this DVD) http://www.looc.org/index.php/warriors.html at the least Please watch the trailer.Oh by purchasing the CD money goes to wounded vets and family members.
You are absolutely right RA and I’m doing the same. I am talking about what I know.
Recovering Alumnisays:May 5, 2010 at 12:36 AMReply
Military life is different than civilian life. I’m sure that to survive, you probably do have to cut off your emotions to a large extent. Its not healthy to live that way long term, though.
Since you disagree with the entire premise of this blog, I’m curious why you hang around? You aren’t going to convince anyone to deny their pain…
Recovering Alumnisays:May 5, 2010 at 12:36 AMReply
PS – I’m sure even your military psychologists would admit that people must grieve their losses…
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 1:03 AMReply
People do go through hard times. They really do. But if you go visit Walter Reed Hospital majority of them are not seeking pity rather many of them want to get back into the fight. I knew a Lt. who lost his foot and left Walter Reed Hospital to go back to my unit. I have a friend who is a contractor lost his leg in an explosion and is still contracting. I’m glad you brought up Military Psychologist. Military Psychologist understand what is PTSD and what is a normal reaction from changing drastic environments. The majority of young vets coming home (who are looking for a diagnosis) go to civilian Psych’s. I used to receive briefs on this whenever going overseas or coming home. Of all the people I know who claim PTSD most of them were fine while in the environment. Since coming home that is when it messes with them.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 1:19 AMReply
I’m not trying to get people to deny their pain. Just put their pain into perspective. I hang around here because so far this whole blog is one sided. Even though I’m not pro TM. I’m here to bring a different perspective to it all. Obviously a very different one.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 1:50 AMReply
On my previous comment on someone mourning and grieving. Most vets will do that. When re-reading that comment my intentions came out wrong. I’m not going to blame them for mourning and grieving. But their is a time to move on. Same with loss of life. I’ve seen many of them move on very fast. I have not seen many stay huddled up forever. A big reason for that is as friends we will not let them. We push them to get out and enjoy life.
With this blog.I do not see how this can be healing. Rather go to the problem. Confront the people you have an issue with. Do something about the problem. Call or e-mail DH or RL or whoever and schedule a meeting. Or go to Alumni Weekend and talk to them. I have friends that made time to go and talk to them about issues. No matter how many times you post about your hardships in life unless you face them they will always be there. Heck if you are intimidated to go by yourself, go in force. All of you go to the next Alumni Weekend and schedule a time with the list of people you have issues with. If 20 of you do that Dave or Ron or whoever can not ignore you.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 4:57 AMReply
Phillip @ 6:44pm Why do my comments have to be related to me being hurt? Just because you don’t understand where I’m coming from you must think it has to come from hurt. You say someone should attempt to contact me. RA has and quite honestly I’m enjoying the conversation with him. But you were the one to mention it. Well I have given my e-mail and phone number. Please by all means feel free to contact me. This isn’t a challenge mano e mano thing. But in all seriousness don’t say “someone should do something” while you are sitting down. I can assure you in a phone call I will be very logical and not rude. 😀
Shannon Kishsays:May 5, 2010 at 8:31 AMReply
Curtis,
I have a few things. You talked about mourning and grieving and how those in the Military do so quickly. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Sometimes we are forced to mourn quickly, because of our job or family. My mom died 5 years ago and I haven’t gotten over it. I don’t think it is fair to expect anyone to “get over it” when it comes to loss, pain, and suffering.
It seems as if you put all humans into this cookie cutter fashion and therefore all humans should respond to pain, loss, and suffering in the same way. Fortunately, we are not cookie cutters and we all go through life differently.
It is unfair to compare military and civilians. Yes, of course there are worse things that HA alumni could have gone through. There are worse things than my mom dying. BUT, just because there are worse things that could have happened to me, does not negate the pain and suffering of what HAS happened to me.
As for this blog, I take it you have never attended an AA meeting or a support group. I have regularly attended with my clients. AA/NA works for a few reasons.
1) There is community among those that are dealing with a common problem. You don’t have to deal with your problem alone. You have people that understand your situation because they have been in a similar one.
2) There is accountable amongst the community. The accountability is sometimes unspoken.
3) There is encouragement and support and a open mindedness amongst members because one can’t be judgmental to others who have faced very similar things.
This blog serves as an online type of AA/NA or Support Group. Stories are shared because withing those stories healing begins– you can connect with others because of shared experiences which can bring about some healing, and admitting the stronghold of the pain, suffering and experiences can be a freeing experience.
There is a lot more to this website than the blog. The forums have really been beneficial in communicating and connecting with others. Join in the conversation over there.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 9:17 AMReply
Shannon, I have said before I don’t have a problem with the pain. My issue is the way of going about it. The reason I had mentioned such strong disagreements in my opinion was because of the way it is going about. Looking on here mostly it is people telling their stories and everyone agrees with them. But no real action is being done directly by the former interns. So I have said it in the past. Why don’t you all go to Alumni Weekend and face the problem. Address the people you had an issue with. If 20 of you went, the staff can not ignore that. I assure you. In all honesty do you want to rely on the Board of Directors to ensure problems like this do not arise again, or would you and others rather ensure the problems do not arise again?
Shannon in regards to the loss of your mother. I have not lost a close family member but I have lost brothers in battle among other friends. Losing someone is difficult because you can’t face the problem and the fact of the matter is that there is many times there is no problem to face. Unless if your mom died of some disease I guess you could raise funds to support others fighting those battles of disease.
Philip Esays:May 5, 2010 at 9:30 AMReply
Curtis,
Especially based on your comments on the alumni site, it certainly appears that a lot of your ideas do come out of hurt. If I’m incorrect, I’m incorrect. I’ve never claimed to be omniscient.
However, it’s been my experience that any time that I want to say that other people’s problems are minor, it’s because there is something in my life that I think was much worse that is still causing me pain.
Secondly, if you see the context of what I said, it had nothing to do with emailing or phoning you, it had to do with changing the tone of the responses towards you.
Shannon Kishsays:May 5, 2010 at 9:31 AMReply
Curtis,
How would YOU like for us to deal with pain? Again, you have a cookie cutter answer for everyone. WE ARE INDIVIDUALS. Individuals experience pain in different ways and have different ways of dealing with their pain.
We are doing something about it. Most, if not all, of us have sent our stories to the Board of Directors. The Board of Directors will be conducting an investigation. Things don’t happen overnight. We are not simply on a blog complaining, we have taken action.
The BOD is the governing board of TM. If we can’t rely on them to look into the matter than there is NO hope for TM. Plain and simple. That is the first step in our action.
We are taking suggestions for other ways we can address it. Please feel free to give us specific suggestions on what we can do.
Many of us have also emailed RL and DH individually. I, personally, have done so. Though I haven’t received a response.
We are doing our part to make changes. We can’t force the HA to make those changes.
Sometimes, in some cases, it wasn’t necessarily a certain individual who hurt us, but the entity as a whole. So, we are addressing that entity.
As for my mother, I have Complicated Grief. If you want more information on that check out my blog. Not everyone suffers from complicated grief, however, it is a real disorder.
There are NO simple answers to dealing with pain, grief, loss, suffering, etc. There isn’t an easy way to “get over it.” It takes time. It takes effort and talking about it. Sometimes, you don’t “get over it” you just move past it with lingering thoughts.
Each individual deals with issues on an individual basis. I do not expect my sisters to grieve the same way I grieve. I don’t expect RA to recover in the same manner that I recover. What RA needs to recover is completely different than what I need to recover.
This blog is NOT just about making the HA change their ways, though that is a goal. It is about finding healing and recovery from the burdens, pain, etc that we experienced. I think that is the part that you are not seeing.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 9:39 AMReply
Philip, It is not the pain in me that has me say “there is much worse” but pain in others I have seen. i.e. I described a true event I witnessed of an Iraq family losing their daughter and having to pick up the pieces of their daughter. Philip I can not even imagine how that must be on them. When I went to talk to them they could not show emotion or say who laid down the explosive for fear of their life. RA brought up a excellent point with me in e-mail of men from the Bataan Death March who are still suffering. I pray to God no one EVER has to experience that again. For me I can never think my life is that bad when I compare it those who have suffered way beyond me. So my ideas are not out of my own hurt but out of experiencing others hurt.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 9:46 AMReply
Shannon I have already addressed on facing pain and the beauty is if you don’t like it you don’t have to take my advice. There are millions of other people who can suggest how to overcome pain. Facing it is the only way I know how, so naturally that’s the advice I’m giving. I have also given suggestions on addressing TM and the issues. I honestly feel like you don’t read my post you skim through it out of anger rather than really grasp what I’m saying.
Shannon Kishsays:May 5, 2010 at 9:54 AMReply
Curtis,
I could never imagine to see that kind of thing. I imagine it would be extremely difficult to be in that family’s shoes or the shoes of a witness.
I work in the mental health field and have done so for the past 5 years. I started working with At Risk Youth and their families and then moved to Therapeutic Foster Care. I currently work with Adults with Severe Mental Illness (schizophrenia, Major depression, etc).
While, I have never witnessed anything remotely similar to what you have witnessed, I have seen hurt and pain that far outweighs the pain and hurt that I have experienced. I have had to talk with children who have been sexually, physically, and mentally abused by family members, friends, etc. I have had to talk with parents who are victims of domestic violence. I have had to advocate for and with people who have been so badly scared emotionally because of events in their lives.
I do what I do because I love people. I HATE to see people hurting so much and I want to do something- be an ear or a shoulder, be a friend, a nurse, whatever- to help them.
I have also experienced pain myself. And while my pain can NEVER be nearly as great as those that I serve and as those that you have witnessed, it is my pain. My pain is just as significant and just as necessary to respond to as theirs is.
The pain and hurt of the people on this blog simultaneously hurts me and angers me. I want to be able to be a friend, a shoulder, an ear for those on this blog just as much as I do for my clients.
I have also been welcomed with open arms into this community, which is strange since I am an atheist. But I have healed because of that openness and acceptance by those on this blog.
I hope that I, too, have been able to help others on this blog.
That is what we are here for. We are not here to simply “bash” TM. We are not here to simply create an “us-vs-them” mentality. We are here for community, for healing, for strength, for encouragement, for understanding, for change.
Shannon Kishsays:May 5, 2010 at 9:56 AMReply
I did read your post Curtis. I addressed your points specifically. You suggested that we face our pain… which we are. You also suggested that we go to alumni weekend (held in Oct) and storm DH and leaders with a message… which is a viable option, but doesn’t address the here and now.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 10:00 AMReply
This is true as far as the hear and now. As far as addressing the Leaders. I wouldn’t think storming to be the initial tactic. But for now definitely a good time to get some solid planning going. Figure out what issues are to be addressed. Whether you want it to be a sit down Q&A. Or have one speaker up their with everyone present saying these are things that need to change. What should not happen is an emotional mob of people then nothing will be accomplished. But planning 5 months of planning is plenty of time for you all to establish who’s going, who’s going to be the leader etc.
Eric P.says:May 5, 2010 at 10:20 AMReply
Here is how Jesus “put our suffering in perspective:”
“What is the price of two sparrows–one copper coin? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows.” (Matthew 10:29-31, NLT)
When Jesus looked for something to compare our pains and trials to, He didn’t look to war and torture and rape and genocide–He looked to the death of a sparrow. The Father is compassionate even to the minuscule suffering of a commonplace bird. Because God’s love is infinitely big, He is concerned with little things. The birds of the air, the lilies of the field, and the hairs on your head. And your pain, which may be less than that of a genocide victim, but is so much more than that of a little sparrow who is never outside of the Father’s heart.
Curtis–Looking back on your story and acknowledging that parts of it were painful is essential to “facing the pain,” wouldn’t you think? How can you face pain if you suppress it or deny it happened?
Also, are you seriously suggesting a mass protest on HA campus, or just trying to make it look like we aren’t willing to take action? There are other equally effective (and less ostentatious) practical steps that are already being taken; see above.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 10:36 AMReplyThis comment has been removed by the author.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 10:42 AMReply
Eric I never said your pain did not matter to God. As far as facing pain there is not much time to think about pain. When regardless of what happened if you were not wounded you had to go back out and accomplish the mission. I’m going to ignore the last paragraph it does not seem like you read the post right before yours.
Nunquam Honorablussays:May 5, 2010 at 11:24 AMReply
Wait… Curtis, did I read wrong, or are you actually in the Army? Because that’s awesome; I love the armed forces. 🙂
I just have a question: how do you have the time to dialogue here? Unless I’m just misinformed about what goes on over there. 😛
That aside, can we just sum up this argument? Nobody’s getting anywhere.
Curtis’ point: let’s put pain into perspective and walk with an attitude of thankfulness; put more action behind your pain and be done with it.
Everyone else’s point: recovery is an individualized process.
There.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 11:27 AMReply
Nun I was in the military for five years. I am not now.
Nunquam Honorablussays:May 5, 2010 at 11:48 AMReply
Ah, I see! Noted; thanks for letting me know 🙂
Eric P.says:May 5, 2010 at 12:16 PMReply
If our pain is significant to God, then it should be significant to His followers. “Love one another as I have loved you.”
C. S. Lewis once observed that his years in an abusive school were actually more traumatic and painful for him than his tour of duty in the trenches in WWI. Why? Perhaps because we expect war to be hell on earth, but school’s supposed to be good, positive, and helpful. The same applies to abusive ministries, of course.
I don’t see a need to belabor the other points.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 12:39 PMReply
Eric when you speak of C.S. Lewis’ experience and his expectations of war are you also speaking from experience, a guess, or just whatever someone else says. Seems like you dug deep for that one if you don’t mind sending me a reference to that observation. Also by stating this quote you are either assuming this to be a stated fact only because CS Lewis said it, or you experienced both sides and agree with this statement.
I do not understand your single sentence second paragraph what that has to do with anything.
Nunquam Honorablussays:May 5, 2010 at 12:55 PMReply
Curtis, I think Eric is throwing CS Lewis’ experience out as an example, not inerrant fact.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 1:08 PMReplyThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 1:28 PMReply
Examples Here are some examples:
http://leadingmarines.com/2009/02/21/sgtmaj-brad-kasal-a-marine-we-should-know.aspx?ref=rss
http://www.lonesurvivor.net/
http://www.chosinreservoir.com/
http://www.jasonsmemorial.org/about.html
http://www.sandline.com/hotlinks/San_Fran_Chron-Blackwater.html
Well these are my examples. I have many many others.
Eric P.says:May 5, 2010 at 2:23 PMReply
“I am surprised that I did not dislike the Army more. It was, of course, detestable. But the words ‘of course’ drew the sting. That is where it differed from Wyvern [the abusive school]. One did not expect to like it. Nobody said you ought to like it. Nobody pretended to like it. Everyone you met took it for granted that the whole thing was an odious necessity, a ghastly interruption of rational life. And that made all the difference. Straight tribulation is easier to bear than tribulation which advertises itself as pleasure.” — Surprised By Joy, ch. 12
The message I’d take to the wounded vets would of course be the one about the sparrows (see above). But I’m willing to bet CSL’s perspective would go over a lot better than your sanctimonious brand of compassion would: “Quit whining about your poor wittle legs; at least you weren’t raped! (Oh, you were? Well quit complaining, at least you weren’t tortured!)”
I don’t see a “single-sentence second paragraph” anywhere, so no wonder you’re confused. However the first paragraph in my comment above says everything about everything, yet you conspicuously ignored it.
Oh well; my words just don’t seem to be the right medicine to produce an ounce of compassion in your cold, hard heart. I guess being an ‘elite warrior’ makes you merciless. Hope that works out for you in your ministry to the broken and hurting people Jesus cares for.
Anonymoussays:May 5, 2010 at 2:38 PMReply
This whole conversation seems better suited for the forum….shall we retire to the forum to continue this at depth since nobody is going to admit their wrong? 🙂
Eric P.says:May 5, 2010 at 2:42 PMReply
Anon–I’ve spoken my piece and I’ll say no more, but yeah, this is still a bit much for a comment thread. Curtis, please do feel welcome to join the forums if you like.
CarrieSaumsays:May 5, 2010 at 4:04 PMReply
Curtis,
I originally posted this for someone else, but I think it would have served you just as well.
did you know (and i’m sincerely sure, without meaning to), you are perpetuating spiritual abuse under the guise of (disturbingly misused) scriptural and spiritual rebuke? until you become aware of this, sites like this will never make sense to you. rather, they will bring up a deep and deafening defensiveness that you will repeatedly shout to those who have been hurt and abused, over and over again. this does more damage than almost any other action you could take. and i can only speak for myself here, but the bible, and God in general, has been abused by those in authority over me, to keep me under tight control, to induce paralyzing feelings of guilt and fear, and to protect those whose actions have caused great physical, emotional, and spiritual trauma in my life. the word of god, or your personal belief system, is not a weapon to be wielded against the wounded. and i truly hope you can hear this and find a place of Love from which to speak and share (even if you don’t believe that Love exists here, or agree with our perspectives).
in your quest to rebuke us, or defend TM, i would present these questions to ask yourself when you feel triggered (even righteously so).
1) is there unmitigated love presented with my rebuke?
2) will my honest and sincere attempt to “fix it” perpetuate the wounds that many of these brothers and sisters received?
3) is there something inside of me that feels the need to fight so dogmatically based in something else besides the situation at hand?
4) would prayer and blessing be a better option?
i know you, curtis. i AM you. we were all you at some point. there is no separation between any of us, unless we believe that separation exists. i pray you find abounding Love with which to search your Heart, love your God, and speak your Truth.
Curtis Romanosays:May 5, 2010 at 11:21 PMReply
Eric this was your single sentence paragraph: I don’t see a need to belabor the other points.
C.S. Lewis one descrption of abuse at that school: Lewis also describes, largely in passing, the English public school tradition by which socially powerful older boys enter into sexual liaisons with younger boys, who thereby acquire a status similar to that of courtesans. At one point, Lewis addresses why he has so little to say about this practice, and indeed why he doesn’t even bother to condemn it: “What Christian, in a society so worldly and cruel as that of Wyvern, would pick out the carnal sins for special reprobation? Cruelty is surely more evil than lust and the World at least as dangerous as the Flesh. The real reason for all the pother (about homosexuality) is, in my opinion, neither Christian nor ethical.
In this case of him being a small boy forced into homosexual sex I’d agree with that. So now you’re comparing your TM experience to his school experience and feel you have the right to put it in the same category just because you didn’t expect to get hurt?
Reference: http://www.ocala.com/article/20060325/OPINION/203250331?p=2&tc=pg
Carrie, Let me set the record straight you were not like me and you are not me. I assure you. I am not like this from TM. You should probably read more of my postings. I was raised like this for which I do not apologize or make an excuse for.
Curtis Romanosays:May 6, 2010 at 3:09 AMReply
Eric, actually I talk to friends who have been seriously wounded or lost body parts. We get a long just fine. I don’t show them empathy as well. Because they are strong willed and strong minded they have a desire and heart of showing they can do it (whatever the task is). One of them is still fighting in Afghanistan with one leg. He has shown no regret of his service. Another friend of mine named Melo is trying to come back overseas as a security contractor. He had 6 months of rehab to be able to learn to talk and walk.
Because I came across rude you have missed my point on why I think this is complaining. It is not the fact you feel you’ve been hurt. It is the way you’re going about it. Which is the idea of this blog rather than addressing the issues. Also now you talking about war have you ever been to war, have you ever been shot at or blown up? If not stay in your lane especially when regarding to something you have zero idea about. This would be like me talking about the stock market. I don’t have a clue about it and I invest my money with people who do know about the stock market.
Also, Eric I have never said I was an elite warrior. I do not put myself into that category. I would put men in that category who have sacrificed their lives for me and other service members. Like my dear friend John Stalvey who was killed in an IED, Norman Anderson III who jumped in front of a VBIED to save the lives of his fellow squad members their are other I personally knew among these two and others I did not who I hold in the same regard of being an elite warrior.
Curtis Romanosays:May 6, 2010 at 4:12 AMReply
I just noticed one of my comments were deleted which had a very strong point. Someone mentioned that another intern was sexually violated and posted their story on here. I have not read that story however if they were sexually violated rather than posting it on here they should press charges.
A good quote to get everyone on the way brain thinks of understand “Evil prevails if good men do nothing.”
I do not think TM is evil some of you disagree. But think about that comment and put it into perspective.
Shannon Kishsays:May 6, 2010 at 8:25 AMReply
“Because they are strong willed and strong minded they have a desire and heart of showing they can do it (whatever the task is).”
So, those of us that need empathy and need compassion are therefore not “strong-willed” or “strong-minded” and do not have a “desire and heart of showing they can do it”?
Is that what I am to infer from that paragraph?
Also, you assume that by creating a blog nothing more has been done. A lot has been done in an effort to try to seek change.
I emailed DH and RL earlier this week and have not heard a response yet. I will let you know if I do hear a response.
Eric P.says:May 6, 2010 at 8:54 AMReply
“I don’t see a need to belabor the other points” means just that–I’ve said all I can to make my points as clear as I can, so you can take or leave them as you please. I don’t think further prolonging the discussion would benefit anybody here.
I do have to say though, I’m sorry to see you’re still ignoring my observation that we are commanded to love people the same way God (who is mindful when a sparrow falls) loves. That’s all I really wanted to get across.
Nunquam Honorablussays:May 6, 2010 at 9:14 AMReply
Curtis, your comments are going in exhausting circles. Why do you bother?
Curtis Romanosays:May 6, 2010 at 9:31 AMReply
Shannon that paragraph on my wounded friends was a reply to Eric about his opinion on my reaction to wounded vets or rape victims. Basically showing he was wrong. That was not for people to look through the lines for some secret message. In all honesty Shannon I think that is good to continually contact them in search of fixing the situation. And I hope you do let me know if they ever respond. I have never had a problem getting a response from Dave but my only response was to give him information regarding security measures of HA Mexico. Because the drug wars and CEO kidnappings are through the roof there.
Eric. I did not ignore your post about God being mindful of all our sorrows, pain and suffering. In fact previously I posted that “I never said your pain doesn’t matter to God.” So of course He is aware and concerned.
Eric even though I am harsh on people that doesn’t mean I don’t love people. My way of showing love may be more blunt than what you desire. But maybe there is someone out there who needs tough love in this blog thing. Jesus showed tough love to his disciples and the pharisees. He was also compassionate. I too have compassion. But I’m not gonna finish the rest of what I want so that the rest of this post will be seen.
Nun my comments going in exhausting circles. I ave to repeat myself because most people think I don’t care about hurt and pain. I’ve had to repeat that I have no problem with the hurt and pain. I just relate more to tough love.
RA too bad you can’t delete just some of the post that you seem unfit rather than the whole post…Just an observation. Also waiting on that phone call.
Curtis Romanosays:May 6, 2010 at 10:07 AMReply
I just noticed about the forum comments. I tried to sign up my e-mail has been blocked from the forum. I’m in Afghanistan and since I’ve caused quite an up-stir (not sure if that is a word but makes sense to me) that I missed some comments due to time change. So Eric I am not welcome at the forums apparently.
Nunquam Honorablussays:May 6, 2010 at 10:09 AMReply
Curtis, maybe you could tailor your posts, so that there’s nothing that RA would have to worry about removing in the first place.
Or better yet, you could stop posting on this particular topic altogether; this argument is going NOWHERE.
Curtis Romanosays:May 6, 2010 at 10:24 AMReply
Nun I tried to adjust it. But I just think what I wanted to say as nicely as I could say it, would have been deleted. So I just decided not to go on with it. You in particular appear to be unbiased on the subject or holding in reserve lately. I’m waiting on your sneak attack..j/k..
Yes I agree this argument is going nowhere extremely fast. I have opened my e-mail address and Skype Phone number for anyone. Yet only RA has taken the opportunity to e-mail me and quite honestly I’ve enjoyed the time talking to him. I also have a facebook if anyone wants to find me on there.
Anonymoussays:May 6, 2010 at 10:27 AMReply
Hey yall-
http://studylight.org/devos/utm/index.cgi
Solved!
Eric P.says:May 6, 2010 at 10:37 AMReply
For the record, I think you saying “I talk to friends who have been seriously wounded … I don’t show them empathy as well” proves me right. Also see my comment way above about the Fruit of the Spirit, which includes “gentleness.”
Actually, I did enjoy the dialogue as well, at least when rudeness wasn’t involved. Peace out.
Now here’s a bunny with a pancake on its head!
Eric P.says:May 6, 2010 at 10:39 AMReply
Anon @ 10:27–Awesome Oswald Chambers quote! Thanks!
Curtis Romanosays:May 6, 2010 at 10:46 AMReply
Rather than empathy I show encouragement. There is a difference. I encourage them to get out and get on with life. And they are all doing good and I’m not the one to take credit others do it as well. Eric if only their was a way for you to see how me and these friends hang out it might give you a better perspective.
Shannon Kishsays:May 6, 2010 at 10:50 AMReply
Curtis, I sincerely hope that what you call “encouragement” is not what you have presented on these discussions. What you have presented hasn’t encouraged me in any way, rather it has made me feel dismissed and no important.
Curtis Romanosays:May 6, 2010 at 11:23 AMReply
Shannon you don’t call encouragement me giving advice about how to deal with TM. If that is not some kind of encouragement I am not sure what your definition is.
CarrieSaumsays:May 6, 2010 at 12:00 PMReply
@ curtis:
it’s interesting that out of everything i said, the only comment you chose to address was about all of us being the same….and how YOU are not the same as US. while i still disagree whole heartedly, i hope you are able to hear the rest of what i said and proceed in love here, or wherever you choose to be.
also, it’s clear that RA is not going leave abusive or inappropriate comments up on this site because many people are still in a very tender and important part of their recovery. if you do not have the ability to relate or empathize, that’s okay. that’s where you’re at. but please don’t continue to try to solve this. it’s not about you.
i pray you go in peace.
Recovering Alumnisays:May 6, 2010 at 12:05 PMReply
Everyone – I apologize for being away from my computer so much this week and unable to moderate these discussions.
Curtis – I emailed you and EXPLICITLY told you never to bring up the rape analogy again. And yet, you have. That is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable.
Second, I have no idea why the forums didn’t accept you – but I can’t say I’m disappointed about that. You seem eager for a fight – NOT a discussion.
You can’t really compare TM to the military. Anyone going into the military knows they might be facing death or serious injury. TM is supposed to be the opposite. So we are not comparing apples to apples here.
I’ve been really patient with you but you are starting to tick me off. This blog is not a place to fight – its a place of healing. If even one wounded person is further hurt by your comments, that is too many. And I won’t allow it. You obviously don’t want to participate in the healing, so if you can’t get on board with that, I am going to have to ask you to leave.
gc1998says:May 6, 2010 at 12:17 PMReply
without reading all the comments in between, i completely agree with anonymous on may 4 @ 3:09pm.
(for the record, i don’t really agree with curtis, but the whole point of this is that grace and kindness and love were not demonstrated for us in a place where they should have been. the backlash from supporters of this blog against people who disagree with it should be seasoned with grace and patience. i mean, i know *i* remember being a kool-aid drinker and not being able to comprehend people having different viewpoints.
part of maturity and love is being able to tame your tongue and disagree with civility.
cesna, you said, “i think curtis was responded to with the maturity he deserves.” but that’s exactly the point…NONE of us DESERVE anything good! it is because of Jesus that we have it and expect it. it is because of Jesus that we should extend that to others. (i may be back after i read the rest of the comments.)
Curtis Romanosays:May 6, 2010 at 12:18 PMReply
RA I’ve been pretty calm the past day. Eric P. even said he has enjoyed the discussion. As have I.
gc1998says:May 6, 2010 at 12:51 PMReply
ok. i’ve read the rest.
1. i completely agree with carrie. she is one of the most patient, loving, and wise people i know.
2. curtis…you said something i found SO ironic…that people who have PTSD are fine when they’re IN the situation…it’s when they’ve gone home that stuff starts to get squirrelly. that is my experience with TM/the internship, and i know it’s the experience a lot of other people have had as well.
perhaps in certain circumstances tough love is necessary if someone has zero motivation and is simply wallowing in self-pity. i don’t know if that is where your injured vet friends are or not…from the way you described them…it’s not. like you’ve pointed out, none of us have been there, so i don’t want to assume…what i DO know is…i’m glad that we’re not friends…and that none of my friends respond to me when i’m struggling the way you relate to your friends. but again…i’m not there. maybe you ARE encouraging to them. i’d be fascinated to get the chance to ask them, though…
Eric P.says:May 6, 2010 at 1:17 PMReply
Hey now, I only said I enjoyed the parts that didn’t involve rudeness.
Curtis Romanosays:May 6, 2010 at 1:33 PMReply
I know Eric I was referring to the point of with in the past day. Have I come off as rude since then?
Anonymoussays:May 6, 2010 at 1:38 PMReply
I agree with RA in asking Curtis to leave this website.
Your comments are rude, inappropriate, arrogant, and coming from a completely different place than many of us here.
If you are not here for healing, please let those of us who are do so in peace.
Curtis Romanosays:May 6, 2010 at 1:48 PMReply
Anon 1:38 If I was only here for no other reason than to tick people off why would I give my opinion on how to help solve the matter? It has been expressed many people do not agree with the way I would handle it. But I offered genuine ideas on the matter.
Nunquam Honorablussays:May 6, 2010 at 2:15 PMReply
Curtis- the ideas you presented have either already been done (to no avail), or are completely absurd.
I do appreciate the nickname though (; I don’t think anybody’s called me Nun before… I like it!
Curtis Romanosays:May 6, 2010 at 2:18 PMReply
Nun- I understand that. I was just trying to explain to the Anon person that if I was only here to tick people off why would I give serious suggestions.