My best friend during the internship was “kicked out” in your words. He didn’t see it that way. He had not met the requirements of the program and had the chance to reapply which he did and then returned.
I like what he told me. If you are in a college class and your teacher finds you cheating repeatedly on tests/exams, you will receive an F, but you can retake the class. That’s what I did with the HA and it completely made sense that I had gone against the requirements repeatedly and needed to redo their program.
There is a difference between gross and purposeful flouting of the rules and a simple one time mistake and/or misunderstanding. From my personal experience and the people I’ve spoken to, it is usually the latter.
Me too, last Anon. And, to be quite frank, it is woefully retarded.
I’m pretty sure Jesus doesn’t care when we come to Him with our sin, so long as we do. Example: you kiss somebody.
If you confess immediately, you *might* not get dismissed (but put on a hefty growth plan, and hey- they probably do need some sort of correction). But if you wait a few months, then–
OHNO GUYS A HEATHEN
IT’LL GIVE YOU CHRISTIANITY COOTIES
In all seriousness, though, the whole “untimely dismissal” bit greatly confuses me.
@Nunquam, I think their purpose in punishing delayed confession probably comes from a parallel in the story of Ananias and Sapphira. From the context of the preceding chapter (Acts 4), it’s not a stretch to label Ananias and his wife Sapphira as believers, though it doesn’t come out and say it…the entire first part of Acts talks about what happened with the early church’s first years. Now, while Ananias outright lied and was instantly killed on the spot (useful perhaps for a different Biblical lesson), Sapphira was given a chance, so to speak, to confess her sin. Now, she didn’t know that their lie had been found out, nor that her husband was dead, but something should have triggered SOMETHING in her mind when Peter asked her if it was the price they got for the land…why would he ask? The reason the punishment was so severe (physical death is pretty severe, I think, especially for a born-again believer in the same faith we hold to) was that there were so many new believers (everyone was new, technically, since even Peter and John who had been with the Lord Jesus were not “Christians” for more than a few years themselves)…the poison of such blatant sin in the environment where brand new believers were growing in such great proportions was too dangerous. The Bible doesn’t say they went to hell, though perhaps they did (another discussion for another time), but they were removed from the picture. The premise of removing interns who willfully sin and further willfully kept it hidden, well, that’s a double whammy. Showing that person grace after such a willful act of cowardice/shame/guilt would only encourage others to do the same, but intentionally (the stigma of “if I confess I might get dismissed, but if I hold it in awhile then I can just say I’ve seen the error of my ways”…interns could justify doing anything in this line of thinking). The HA wants to be able to address problems when they occur, so that growth can be sought earlier and the probationary period can help get them on the right track, not merely look back and say “oh well, I guess that one slipped by” with the knowledge that more would “slip by” if the policies and rules were not taken seriously and punished.
(continued) Now yes, others have gotten dismissed for a one-time offense that was immediately confessed. I can’t pretend to know EVERY factor of every decision, as each decision is unique (even with “crimes” that are the same, the individuals who commit them and/or the history of that intern within the ministry are factored in, I’m sure), but what I can say from experience is that turning yourself in early without being “found out” and following up with a repentant attitude does go a long way. Delayed self-confession or immediate discovery by someone else both throw up red flags, namely “why didn’t this person come forward sooner (or at all, if the offense was reported by a 3rd party)?”
Some people I went before the Honor Council with were belligerent, mad because they got caught, no contrite heart, etc., and then they get MORE mad when they get kicked out. They missed the point. When a fellow believer confronts us for something we cannot refute as being sinful, we aren’t supposed to get all defensive and stubborn, no healing can take place then. God heals broken hearts, He breaks hardened hearts, or He lets you learn the hard way if you don’t want to do it His way. Now, am I saying that TM’s model is exactly how God would do it? No, I’m just pointing out similarities as they might apply.
As far as Jesus not caring “when we come to Him with our sin, so long as we do”, I would have to argue that point. In Psalm 51:17, David says (regarding his sin with Bathsheba and Uriah) “A broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.” Yes, Jesus wants to heal us, but the longer we harden our hearts, refusing to see the sin we committed (as David did, hiding his sin with Bathsheba until Nathan confronted him), the worse we make things. Once David did confess the sin, healing was allowed to take place. But still, there were consequences. The baby still died. But afterward there was grace there, for Bathsheba became part of the lineage of Jesus. Regarding the timing, Jesus cares, because as long as we harbor that sin, He isn’t able to (or chooses not to) work in or through us as much as He would like to. That is not to say that Jesus never uses people with sin in their lives…look at us. But, I would contest that a life free from the burden of hidden sin is able to be lighter and more carefree, enabling us to “run the race” easier. Just some food for thought.
John, I’ll admit that appealing to the story of Ananias and Sapphira as justification for the HA’s way of doing things is….baffling to me. I don’t think that story was a model for us to follow! lol
The Honor Council system is rife with problems!! I can’t even go into all of them because it would take an entire post.
Lol. I didn’t mean that we should go out of our way to “knock people off” in any way, I was merely alluding to the principle of removing the obstacles that would become stumbling blocks to others. Yeah, the HA is for those “obstacle” people too, and that’s why (I would hope) that the Honor Council process exists, imperfect and flawed though it may be. I’ve known people who gotten a recommendation to stay who got dismissed anyway, as well as those who the Council recommended to dismiss that were permitted to stay. In my situation, I don’t know which way the vote in the Council went, and frankly I suppose it doesn’t matter. All I know is that if I HAD been dismissed, I would hope that Dave would have told me personally…as it was, I was not dismissed and never had to talk to Dave.
There were things about the selection process of the Honor Council that I did not understand…or rather, it seemed more of a popularity contest, because you had to be nominated. I was not nominated and others in my core were who I thought (in my judgmentally flawed mind) were inferior spiritually. Oh, how “goodie goodie” I thought I was back then, lol. Later that year when I faced them, I thought “not only did I not get to be on the Honor Council, but now I’m sitting on the wrong side of the table from them.” In my zeal, I surely would have made recommendations to get people dismissed back then, it’s a good thing I never was on the Council, lol.
Jon Fessler…. Wow…. What you describe sounds like a military school. Or maybe a concentration camp. I am very unnerved by the lengths you’re going to to defend the decision-making of prison camp style leadership. Zero relevance to actual gospel in this approach.
11 comments:
My best friend during the internship was “kicked out” in your words. He didn’t see it that way. He had not met the requirements of the program and had the chance to reapply which he did and then returned.
I like what he told me. If you are in a college class and your teacher finds you cheating repeatedly on tests/exams, you will receive an F, but you can retake the class. That’s what I did with the HA and it completely made sense that I had gone against the requirements repeatedly and needed to redo their program.
There is a difference between gross and purposeful flouting of the rules and a simple one time mistake and/or misunderstanding. From my personal experience and the people I’ve spoken to, it is usually the latter.
i think you’re twisting the word like some laffy taffy.. it’s not even right
No RA really isn’t….I know people who have been kicked out for a one time mistake and have been genuinely repentant!
Me too, last Anon. And, to be quite frank, it is woefully retarded.
I’m pretty sure Jesus doesn’t care when we come to Him with our sin, so long as we do. Example: you kiss somebody.
If you confess immediately, you *might* not get dismissed (but put on a hefty growth plan, and hey- they probably do need some sort of correction).
But if you wait a few months, then–
OHNO GUYS A HEATHEN
IT’LL GIVE YOU CHRISTIANITY COOTIES
In all seriousness, though, the whole “untimely dismissal” bit greatly confuses me.
OMG!!
That is too funny. But not if you’ve been there. Sigh.
@Nunquam, I think their purpose in punishing delayed confession probably comes from a parallel in the story of Ananias and Sapphira. From the context of the preceding chapter (Acts 4), it’s not a stretch to label Ananias and his wife Sapphira as believers, though it doesn’t come out and say it…the entire first part of Acts talks about what happened with the early church’s first years. Now, while Ananias outright lied and was instantly killed on the spot (useful perhaps for a different Biblical lesson), Sapphira was given a chance, so to speak, to confess her sin. Now, she didn’t know that their lie had been found out, nor that her husband was dead, but something should have triggered SOMETHING in her mind when Peter asked her if it was the price they got for the land…why would he ask? The reason the punishment was so severe (physical death is pretty severe, I think, especially for a born-again believer in the same faith we hold to) was that there were so many new believers (everyone was new, technically, since even Peter and John who had been with the Lord Jesus were not “Christians” for more than a few years themselves)…the poison of such blatant sin in the environment where brand new believers were growing in such great proportions was too dangerous. The Bible doesn’t say they went to hell, though perhaps they did (another discussion for another time), but they were removed from the picture. The premise of removing interns who willfully sin and further willfully kept it hidden, well, that’s a double whammy. Showing that person grace after such a willful act of cowardice/shame/guilt would only encourage others to do the same, but intentionally (the stigma of “if I confess I might get dismissed, but if I hold it in awhile then I can just say I’ve seen the error of my ways”…interns could justify doing anything in this line of thinking). The HA wants to be able to address problems when they occur, so that growth can be sought earlier and the probationary period can help get them on the right track, not merely look back and say “oh well, I guess that one slipped by” with the knowledge that more would “slip by” if the policies and rules were not taken seriously and punished.
(to be continued)
(continued)
Now yes, others have gotten dismissed for a one-time offense that was immediately confessed. I can’t pretend to know EVERY factor of every decision, as each decision is unique (even with “crimes” that are the same, the individuals who commit them and/or the history of that intern within the ministry are factored in, I’m sure), but what I can say from experience is that turning yourself in early without being “found out” and following up with a repentant attitude does go a long way. Delayed self-confession or immediate discovery by someone else both throw up red flags, namely “why didn’t this person come forward sooner (or at all, if the offense was reported by a 3rd party)?”
Some people I went before the Honor Council with were belligerent, mad because they got caught, no contrite heart, etc., and then they get MORE mad when they get kicked out. They missed the point. When a fellow believer confronts us for something we cannot refute as being sinful, we aren’t supposed to get all defensive and stubborn, no healing can take place then. God heals broken hearts, He breaks hardened hearts, or He lets you learn the hard way if you don’t want to do it His way. Now, am I saying that TM’s model is exactly how God would do it? No, I’m just pointing out similarities as they might apply.
As far as Jesus not caring “when we come to Him with our sin, so long as we do”, I would have to argue that point. In Psalm 51:17, David says (regarding his sin with Bathsheba and Uriah) “A broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.” Yes, Jesus wants to heal us, but the longer we harden our hearts, refusing to see the sin we committed (as David did, hiding his sin with Bathsheba until Nathan confronted him), the worse we make things. Once David did confess the sin, healing was allowed to take place. But still, there were consequences. The baby still died. But afterward there was grace there, for Bathsheba became part of the lineage of Jesus. Regarding the timing, Jesus cares, because as long as we harbor that sin, He isn’t able to (or chooses not to) work in or through us as much as He would like to. That is not to say that Jesus never uses people with sin in their lives…look at us. But, I would contest that a life free from the burden of hidden sin is able to be lighter and more carefree, enabling us to “run the race” easier. Just some food for thought.
John, I’ll admit that appealing to the story of Ananias and Sapphira as justification for the HA’s way of doing things is….baffling to me. I don’t think that story was a model for us to follow! lol
The Honor Council system is rife with problems!! I can’t even go into all of them because it would take an entire post.
Lol. I didn’t mean that we should go out of our way to “knock people off” in any way, I was merely alluding to the principle of removing the obstacles that would become stumbling blocks to others. Yeah, the HA is for those “obstacle” people too, and that’s why (I would hope) that the Honor Council process exists, imperfect and flawed though it may be. I’ve known people who gotten a recommendation to stay who got dismissed anyway, as well as those who the Council recommended to dismiss that were permitted to stay. In my situation, I don’t know which way the vote in the Council went, and frankly I suppose it doesn’t matter. All I know is that if I HAD been dismissed, I would hope that Dave would have told me personally…as it was, I was not dismissed and never had to talk to Dave.
There were things about the selection process of the Honor Council that I did not understand…or rather, it seemed more of a popularity contest, because you had to be nominated. I was not nominated and others in my core were who I thought (in my judgmentally flawed mind) were inferior spiritually. Oh, how “goodie goodie” I thought I was back then, lol. Later that year when I faced them, I thought “not only did I not get to be on the Honor Council, but now I’m sitting on the wrong side of the table from them.” In my zeal, I surely would have made recommendations to get people dismissed back then, it’s a good thing I never was on the Council, lol.
Jon Fessler….
Wow…. What you describe sounds like a military school. Or maybe a concentration camp. I am very unnerved by the lengths you’re going to to defend the decision-making of prison camp style leadership. Zero relevance to actual gospel in this approach.