Honor Academy’s ESOAL In the News, pt 2

Ohhh, the “clinic” at ESOAL. So many memories..

I’m curious to see what Dave Hasz says tomorrow night in this interview. I imagine it will be interesting.

Checked it. Commented. I don’t really want to get in a big fight about this but guys. It’s…. so wrong.
Does anyone else feel me on this?

Um… i can’t see it?

At least one went to an ER in Tyler with a minor wound infection a few days after the event. In Lindale alone there are two hospital-related clinics in Lindale plus Dr and Dr Hand (who were very popular for that demographic 10 years ago but I don’t know about now). Many kids would probably go to Tyler, which has several hospital-tied Urgent Care centers, two major hospitals, and several other healthcare facilities. 10 in just one clinic in Lindale is too many but it doesn’t paint the whole picture.

You may not be able to tell from the online clips, but this is the leading story on KLTV. It was promo’d before the newscast started and it was the first story reported at the 6 o’clock hour. Just thought those of you who aren’t in the area might be interested to know that.

When I left Teen Mania half-way through my second year, I moved in with a doctor and her family. She said she would never let her children participate in the Honor Academy due to the large number of girls she saw in her clinic who were from Teen Mania. She said that while some of them did have physical injuries caused by ESOAL, corporate exercise and the summer work days (do they still do those?), the majority of illnesses and infections she treated were caused by malnourishment.

I agree with RA. I really don’t feel like “a bus load of 10” at one local clinic paints the full picture.

It’s not letting me leave a comment. Is it letting anyone else leave comments? lol. Probably a good thing. 🙂

RA, I am again working on getting this video for you.

Youtube videos are up-

Part 1- http://youtu.be/jkHLxNiSP1U
Part 2- http://bit.ly/91oFLz

Where’d you get you’re degree? Do you find it so amusing to think you have the credentials or the social voice to label the product of the evangelical charismatic (fundamentalist give or take) para-church ministry a cult? You’re not eloquent, it gets you off does it not? To poison people to cynicism without concrete analyzation or stats? You’re not worth listening to Marley. Go study the history of ecumenical movements, history of evangelical movements and the way in which gnosticism has been handed to us from the Romans, french philosophy, Theology in America by Holifield, hell, even hermeneutics by Virkler and Avavo, go read Chris Hedges American Fascists and NT Wright’s Surprised by Hope,, Jurgen Moltmann’s Systematic Theology I & II, and Stanley Hauerwas and his critique of the American church/ministry and Marley, thats only to start off with….and then MAYBE you’re critique would have some form of validity and actually bring to question the ecumenical problems of the Church at large. Until then, quit manifesting all your shit on the evangelical movement that has you rapped around it’s finger and you don’t even see it. You have the heroin syndrome, with 7 minutes and 91 seconds of you being the “savior” in the limelight. You’re a joke.

Hannah Luce, (Ron’s daughter by the way.) Id be happy to answer any of your questions

Hannah Luce, such language from such a prodigy as your father. I am not sure your father, Ron Luce, would be happy with your use of such foul language.

LMAO. Classic.

The run-on sentences made me dizzy so I apologize for not commenting on anything other than your cursing.

Dear Hannah,

Don’t talk to my friends like that.

Thank you,

God

Hannah, serious question for ya–

Why is it that none of the Luce kids have ever attended/graduated from the Honor Academy?

Hannah’s comment in a nutshell:

“FUCK YOU.

Thanks and God bless <3”

Hannah’s comment was a personal vendetta against RA. It had absolutely nothing to do with this blog or the topic at hand. It was non-nonsensical at best.

While I don’t agree with her comment, let’s show some grace. I’m sure some of the things said on here could be misinterpreted. In a way, she may feel she’s defending her father. And, being a daughter who loves her father dearly, I understand and respect that.

Again, I don’t think she spoke what she did out of love or wisdom, but we can all go a bit overboard out of emotion. (I know I can.)

Bottom line, I don’t think it would be too hard for us to exercise some patience, this may be a trying time for her.

<3

Missjulia, you are right. I apologize. I think it was just shock of seeing her curse.

RA: Disclaimer. I don’t have a vendetta against you. I simply think you are and will continue to be a product of the evangelical movement you have seen fit to place yourself in. You’re story is compelling, however you’re response now is reactionary based on how the Honor Academy ‘made you feel’ which is why you had responded to coming to ATFs and the Honor Academy in the first place. Is there no irony here?

I understand the Honor Academy isn’t for everyone, it wasn’t for me.

Now, missjulia,

my response is not for the sake of defending my father, he needs no defending.
My response is to the lack of intelligence and negligent behavior this group has used in response to the disagreements you have had based on you’re experiences, when in actuality the fundamental problems of the evangelical/charismatic faith within America needs a response that intellectually deconstruct the American ideals/Modernism/Revivalist camps and all their theologies in order to make sense of Christian faith. I am telling you that the problem is bigger than you. If you are not willing to be a catalyst for actual change, then you are simply a sad dog biting out of pain, and therefore unwilling to see anything or anyone other than your own paint.

I agree, there are things within the church that must be critiqued. Para-church ministries as well, but “the road to recovery from Spiritual Abuse?” You are only victimizing yourself.

While I think there are (or were… I’ve been out of the loop a long time) issues that need to be dealt with, this doesn’t feel right to me. Maybe it’s just me, but this seems wrong.

(This is “missjulia” sorry, login issue)

RA- agreed. My point is that personal attacks aren’t conducive with an environment of love and healing, which is what we’re trying to uphold here.

Of course, we are all adults. I would just hate to see someone hurt by reading something here that was not thought out well before being posted. We are able, as you and are doing, to disagree maturely and out of love without criticizing each other or mocking what the other has said. My opinion is that that’s the safest way to go about it for everyone.

“cult,” “scandal,” “mighty Ron Luce,” “emotional recovery,” …………stealing from TM, sounds to me like your only interest is exploitation for the sake of your own immediate gratification.

Call it whatever you like, it has been how many years since you’ve been to HA? Grow up and live your life. You are still being breast-fed by TM and you don’t see it.

RA: What church do you go to? What causes you to want to be Christian? Do you truly care sacramentally about Christian community? Why are your responses filled with such cynicism?

Dear Hannah,

It’s your bedtime,

Love,

God

Regarding Hannah:
I hear someone who is encouraging a deeper intellectual understanding of the roots of Christianity in order to understand present day fundamentalism and its role in her life and ours; this is a journey that I went through as I was deconstructing my own religious history in college and I fully support it. Looking at Christianity from a broader perspective is always a great idea.
The tone of the comment is what turns me off a bit. Unfortunately, the tone masks the challenge to deeper intellectual understanding of Christianity with vengeance and sarcasm, leading not to the exchange of ideas in the spirit of compassion and intelligence, but to heated hurtful responses.

hey hannah, so…gosh, i hate to be the petty person bc i called some people out previously for being petty and nitpicky and trying to equate misspellings with a lack of excellence…like, using improper grammar disqualified them and made the substance of their statements irrelevant…so, i’m not doing that, BUT…your posts are just…RIFE with spelling and grammatical errors. it’s a bit ironic, when you’re asking us to study some of the things you’ve been studying and apply them to the situation at hand…to demonstrate a bit of lack of knowledge of your own. that said…something you said struck a chord…you said, “if you’re not willing to be a catalyst for change…”

you may have some other valid objections…i don’t agree with everything that’s said on this blog, but, suggesting that there has been no mature attempt at dialog or intentional advocacy for change is just untrue. RA (well, um, mica), and others have worked pretty tirelessly to try to dialog and bring about change in TM.

i completed the program over 10 years ago as well, and when you say that the american evangelical culture at large is the problem…i agree. when you say that our response to TM is symptomatic of the charismatic/pentacostal environment…that’s also interesting…there was and is a lot of emphasis on feelings and experiences at TM. so, it’s ok to “experience” God, but it’s not ok to suggest that our EXPERIENCES there…didn’t actually help us to experience God or grow closer to him? an interesting point you bring up. (i’m not being a jerk…it’s an interesting thought.)

anyway…i would feel patronized if someone had said this to me at your age, but…most of us have left home, we’ve gone to college, we’ve studied scripture and hermaneutics and many of the things you’re studying (at least i did; even have a minor in biblical languages to show for it. TOTALLY use it everyday life. not wasted 18 credits at all!) my point is…i still find things daily that i realize are carryovers from TM…lessons i was taught, bad thinking patterns which affect my ability to be happy, content, and healthy.

the intern experience is good for some, but for many it is more toxic than they can be aware without having been out of the program for many years.

mica has heard a LOT of stories…many of which haven’t been shared…it’s completely understandable that she feels frustrated by her attempts to deal with all of this. a lot of people have been hurt, and not much has been done about it except to suggest that maybe they were wrong or sinful or shouldn’t have done the program in the first place.

now i’m just rambling. on, and on, and on.

RA: The question is not the deconstruction of Christianity within TM,
TM is not a denomination, nor is it affiliated with one sole denomination, and therefore it is held by core values but not by a certain theology itself.

It is rather the influences of the movement/time that has provoked both the need for para-church ministry and shaped the doctrines of the church. Those influencers are the ones that must be put in to question, your emotional response to Christianity and faith in general is only one of many beliefs within Christian faith and practice. Within Pentecostal/Charismatics, they have abandoned any kind of sacramentology (such as the Eucharist-communion as the centrality of Christianity) and instead turned to a provocative understanding of communication with creator. Instead of Christ communicating with his church through the charisms and sacraments, this stream of Christianity teaches (like culture) a freudian perspective of the ego. Essentially, it is the imperialistic and individualistic American idealism that has in many ways seeped in to the skin of the church, and ultimately created individualistic Christianity that bares ideas like that we were meant to have a tingling sensation much like an orgasm that proves that our faith is real. Or “personal relationship” syndrome that claims individual salvation apart from community (church). This is one of many things that must be dealt with, and yes, does effect TM as it does most christian organizations, churches, people. Essentially the church has lost the reason for being church and most of us are left, not knowing how to be human because of the empire of illusions that are created. However, these creations were birthed bc of past movements. The Enlightenment, the Renaissance, Modernity, Post modernity, etc etc. All these things shape us. One’s tendency, their natural reaction is to react what seems as most evident, obvious. However, your mindset, your worldview was created for you before you even stepped in to the gates of TM. Those pains and confusions you have in many ways have validity, but having a focus group to vent abt the dirty little details isnt the healthy way of coping with pain.

There must be a re-imagination of Christianity rather than tearing a Teen organization a part and acclaiming of yourself knowledge. What you say is word salad, with no substance.

I will not be responding again.

Thank you for your time.

gc…I got myself quite the chuckle from the exact same thing. There are few things funnier than a person trying to sound intelligent while butchering the language she’s using to do so.

Here’s a sweet movie scene that pretty much breaks down what just happened here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymsHLkB8u3s

An off-topic analysis of Hannah’s comments:

Hannah reminds me of my writing students — college freshmen who think they are communicating, but aren’t. If I were helping her craft her thoughts into a coherent statement, I would suggest slowing down, abandoning the jargon, and not trying to “talk smart.” Unfortunately, her writing is also riddled with errors that completely undermine the writing — its vs. it’s, “rapped” instead of “wrapped” (REALLY?), and other really obvious errors.

However, there is another reason she sounds like my freshmen. She is EXCITED and passionate about the things she has been learning. She sounds as if her mind has recently been blown, and what’s going on here with the RA community is contradictory to her newfound and passionate beliefs.

This also leads to extreme judgment, because at 18, you likely haven’t realized that people who hold other opinions (and even opinions that lead to activism opposite your cause) are not necessarily your enemies.

Also, she sounds like her dad. “Word salad?” The Luces have a knack for silly phrases.

I would like to remind Hannah that the very people she comes and chastises are responsible for her having clothes, shelter, food and everything else in her life that cost money. Before you decide to come in and just judge everyone here – maybe you should thank God that your parents were able to run a Christian business far better than any other out there.

If you are to truly be angry Hannah – maybe have a conversation with your dad about the morons on the Board of Directors who can’t seem to follow through on their commitments to truly bring positive change to TMM. I honestly hoped that the “investigation” Mark talked about would actually be something great that could bring positive change – yet it’s obvious that no one really wanted to hear it and RA and others were made to look like a few black sheep.

Be thankful so many of us dedicated sometimes years of our lives to further the success of Teen Mania Ministries – something you Hannah have directly benefited from.

How dare you come on here and chastise us. Forgive me for my anger but your self righteous little tantrum made me want to vomit.

I’d like my $10,000 and 2.5 years back and maybe my innocence along with it. Let me know when your father is ready to send a check.

Hannah,
Oh man where to begin. God is love, when we love we are like him. When we bless the weak we act as Jesus acted. When we seek to understand other’s hurts and go towards helping them as we have seen do done here, we have touched the face of God. It’s funny! By the statistics in your father’s book I don’t make the cut to be considered a believer because I would absolutely never identify myself as an evangelical. I would call myself a Christ follower under grace and a Christian but to people like your father those labels mean very little. Deconstruction of our faith is a frivolous argument for this blog and I for one will not engage you in it. I feel it is a fools quest that you are on to try to get us off the topic at hand. One of the tenants of a good life regardless who you are is the ability to recover from our hurts. That is the nature of this site. This has nothing to do with where we now are on our spiritual journey. As a Christ follower to show love to those who are on the early part of their journey and give them the support to go through the steps of recovery which include righteous rage at those whom have harmed you is part of our calling as Christians. I find it an amazing act of love and dedication to those from the ministry that a former GI has given a portion of her heart to help with the healing of others regardless of if it was intentional on the part of TM.
As a Psychologist I have seen well run support groups many times and run them myself. While our own flesh gets in the way of always honoring the spirit of love that these groups are suppose to be about I feel RA has done an amazing job and I bless her for the strength it took to come forward to continue the healing in others. I realize that you have only the ability to pervert our actual message here so I feel sorry for you because in all the fight in your faith you have missed the message in Corinthians all together. If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but have not love I am nothing!

God bless I will pray that your heart will be whole from it’s hurts as we try to find a way to have the same in our lives!
L

I think it’s really funny when someone thinks they won an argument by saying “I won’t be responding again.”

Also, WHERE IS MY RED PEN?? I NEED A RED PEN!!!

Hannah reminds me of me at 18: self-important, self-righteous, and pompous. Sad. As so many people have said before: we can perform miracles, speak in the tongues of men and angels, and give all we possess to the poor, but if we don’t have love, we’re nothing. I hope it doesn’t take her as long as it took me to really understand what that means.

Micah,

this whole comment section has been…interesting. Your very last comment though is interesting to me, “If I can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, but have not love, I am nothing”…you believe that? Do you follow that mentality? I’m honestly not sure how you can say yes after reading through so many of your comments. Your posts for the most part seem to be okay and somewhat unbiased and I have enjoyed reading them however when it comes to your debates with actual people or comments whether on here, the conference call or on the news, I’m not sure I believe you. People on here say that you have no personal vendetta against Dave or Heath or Ron or whoever but I’m not sure I believe that either based on the fact that I’m not sure you do have love. i hope you’ll continue to read to allow me to explain my thoughts.

I understand your cause, I really do and I am not some “impressionable young person”, I am on the other side of 30 myself with a life completely outside of TM. I have my quams with the ministry that I definitely don’t feel the need to go into here but those are my quams, they are things that I carry and they are different than anyone else and I have forgiven Teen Mania for them because they reached out to me but also because I realized alot of those quams were based out of immaturity in myself in my younger days anyway.

The point I’m trying to get to here is this, continue with your cause, continue with what you feel is right but get rid of the vendetta that it seems you have against a few men and a ministry for I see it that if you truly have love that I hope you understand that every word you speak in some ways can bring hurt to so many people. Yes it may help some as well but how do you judge which is greater and more beneficial, you know? There are many people I believe that need to be at TM for whatever reason, at the same time there are many people that are not even affiliated with the HA directly that all of this is affecting (families of those working there, etc.) and you have to understand the scope is much broader than you think. Choose your words carefully at all times, seek real lasting change and seek to show love to every being, not just those that are in your boat.

I hope you can see my heart here is not to be a jerk in anyway shape or form, you can even feel free not to post this comment for this comment was meant just for you as you move forward.

Blessings!! this may sound trite, but I am praying for you for wisdom as you move forward and that God would direct your feet, hands and tongue.

good thoughts….Jim Elliott and his friends were murdered, what did Jim’s wife & the two friends wives do? they infiltrated the tribe and befreinded all of the tribesman and led them to the Lord.

The most heinous action was done to these woman and their families and they turned around with love which spoke more than a vendetta. you catch more flies with honey than you do vinegar

and lastly if thats what it seems to the outside, what else do we have to go off of? Are you going to explain to every single person what you say above? probably not, so when we see your face on the news or here your voice on a call or read your comments what are we to gather? Of course people are going to be quick to judgement because they don’t see your heart or passion.

Dear Hannah,

“Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.” –1 Corinthians 8:1.

Eric

But were all of the Pharisees to be considered deserving of hell? What about Nicodemus? We should not allow the remarks of Jesus to give us an unfair bias against the entire Pharisaic party. We also cannot neglect the rabbinic literature (the Mishnah, the Tosefta, etc.) as valid historical sources, or shut the eyes to the positive qualities of Pharisaism as revealed in the rabbinic literature.

In the New Testament it is obvious that Jesus had legitimate reasons for His accusations. These accusations center on the areas of teaching and practice. It does not however call out every single man individualy, something to think about

hmm…ignorance. Well if i don’t know you but you are trying to get me to jump onto your train, what am I to base my decision to jump off of? obviously its going to be based off a bit of ignorance.

i don’t feel that anger is wrong at all but I do think that without meaning to anger can be directed at areas or people that it shouldn’t be and that can have severe and sometimes eternal consequences.

I think an important difference to note, Thomas… is that the tribe responsible for murdering Jim Elliot and co. were not believers. What they did they did not do in the name of Christ.

RA’s comparison to the pharisees is far more accurate.

Calling this a “personal vendetta” against Ron and Dave is just an attempt to discredit the righteous anger that many people here have on behalf of hurting people. Suggesting that we should just allow the abuse to continue in the name of “winning Teen Mania over” is ridiculous.

There are a lot of similar arguments that get trotted out around here on a regular basis.

“You talk about love, but this site is not acting in love.”

This site reaches out to those who are wounded and have been told again and again it’s their fault, it’s an exaggeration, etc. This is the first place most people wounded by TM have been able to discuss it with others who understand. There is love there. Also, if any really loves TM would you not want it to be the very best it can be? Would you not want it to be a safe place for interns? TM isn’t being called out for the sake of ridicule. There are damaging actions, practices, and beliefs that are being called accountable by people who love the interns and want what’s best for them.

“Teen Mania has done lots of good.”
That’s great and there are many places on the web for you to talk and learn more about that. That picture has already been presented to the public through TM’s media machine. There seems to be a line of thinking that if TM has done good things, it outweighs the bad and we can just forget the bad stuff. Look, the Catholic church has done good things. Many boys served as altarboys and weren’t raped by a priest. That doesn’t undo the fact that some were. TM isn’t all good or all evil, this isn’t an either or situation.

“I had a great experience.”
We’re glad you don’t have any baggage from your time at TM. But you had different supervisors, CAs, ministry placements, and platoons for ESOAL. Your experience was not exactly like anyone else’s and just because you didn’t have a verbally abusive leader or a bad ESOAL experience doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to anyone else.

This is Hannah Luce and I apologize for my foul language, it was unnecessary.

Wow. Amazing. ESOAL aside. The cult aside. Our experiences and pain aside. I’ve ALWAYS wondered what Ron Luce’s children were like. I’ve also ALWAYS wondered why none of them have attended the cult. This is some fascinating stuff. Well, at least I now have a picture of what one of his offspring is like. So thanks for that, Hannah.

Also, the next time you see you dad could you give him a message for me?

I, too, want my money back from my year there that I PAID to work for your dad. I want my sanity back and I also want THOUSANDS of dollars reimbursed for therapy that I’ve had to pay out of pocket for the last several years. Thanks!

Last night on TV the current intern interviewed stated that he wasnt allowed to talk about ESOAL openly- does everyone- TM, parents, General public- not see that as a HIGE red flag concerning this ministry and its programs?

@ Hannah,

Can I ask you why you haven’t participated in the Honor Academy?

I used to watch those kids at the ATF’s.
Man!
Yike!
Cursing. Really? C’mon.

@everyone talking smack on Hannah–there’s a very specific term for your “rebuttal” of her ideas: ad hominem. “She’s a product of her father’s teaching”? How about allowing people some agency, here? Expressing shock over her cursing? How is that not condescending? Hannah is expressing some of the same thoughts I’ve had myself. Granted it’s not a publisher quality presentation, but this is a comment thread on the Interwebs.

Can we grapple with the ideas she’s putting out instead of getting snarky? Acknowledging that Teen Mania is not the source of these problems is, I think, an important step to recovering and moving forward. In many ways TM only takes implicit assumptions of American evangelicalism to their logical conclusions. This doesn’t invalidate the purpose of this website, but we need to be clear about what we’re dealing with.

Kudos, Hannah–I’m sure you knew people would respond that way, but you said some things that are worth saying anyway. (Also: yay sacramental theology).

@Nick – I think the problem (on this thread, specifically) is that Hannah brought up some valid points but – to be frank – she was mean about it. People generally don’t respond well to meaness.

P.S. – Texting and replying to your post on a thread at the same time! We are nerds and have terrible work ethics.

“When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. They looked for a way to arrest him….” –Matthew 21:45-46.

“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.” –Matthew 18:17

Personal vendetta? People are personally hurting people, and if what it takes to get them to stop is to call them out publicly, well that’s what Jesus said to do, and did.

Ok, how to broach this subject gracefully? I’ll say this. It sucks super bad when people think they know you because of say…a family member’s public nature.

Let’s take ideas as they come. I think the basic truth of hannah’s claims is that the problems within TM that we’re now beginning to address aren’t rooted in TM. TM’s issues are an outgrowth of larger issues in evangelicalism. Authoritarian leadership, the question of agency for individuals and the church, as well as gross misunderstandings of grace and law are core issues in American evangelicalism. I think we’re partly blessed in that TM simply has the wherewithal to follow these things to their natural ends. The excesses of the organization illustrate these problems and may allow us to eventually address these bigger questions In the church. For now, we have this ESOAL. to figure out.

That said, I think the thing to do is stop questioning why she didn’t become an intern, if her ideas are hers (they seem to be), and for the love stop sending messages to Ron via his daughter…it’s stupid.

@Phil–Wish we had a “like” feature here. Well put.

Another point to make about Hannah. HA interns were there for 1-3 years or so, Hannah grew up spending her entire life being raised by the people who created this environment. I can’t even imagine what that must be like. Being a pastor’s kid is not an easy thing, being a pastor’s kid in the kind of environment TM espouses has to be an even more challenging experience.

@Albina,

You’re right. Being a pastor’s kid is not an easy thing, being a pastor’s kid in the kind of environment TM espouses has to be an even more challenging experience.”

And on that note, I’d like to apologize to Hannah. Don’t give your dad a message. It’s my responsibility to give him a message myself and I will.

@Hannah
I’m sorry for everything that you have to go through. I can’t imagine what you have to deal with on a daily basis. George Bush’s daughters probably had a lot of relatable things to deal with because who their father was. You shouldn’t have to feel like you’re in the middle of it. Nobody is blaming you for anything. You were standing up for your father and I probably would have done the same for mine. You’re young and you’re figuring things out for yourself and that’s admirable. It really is. I apologize.

TM being an outgrowth of larger evangelical (church) issues and we being (partially) a product of TM… makes it ok for TM to teach us false doctrine and treat us poorly? I guess that’s my argument to Hannah. As Nick said (through a txt msg), she may be accurate but her assesment does not invalidate RA’s arguments toward TM.

Hannah,

As the daughter of a pastor, I just want to reach out and say that I totally get where you are coming from. My dad has a very large presence, almost like a physical pull when he comes in the room. It is part of what I love about him, and also part of what bothers me.

When I was 19, I joined the Honor Academy. My dad was fiercely against it…he thought it was a hyper-charismatic cult and was fearful for my spiritual and emotional safety. I love my dad deeply, and I didn’t want to injure our relationship. But I was really struggling to find my own identity apart from the gravitational figure of my father and his faith. However, while I was an intern, I had a few conversations with other interns who bashed my dad and his theology, and I came quickly to his defense. He was my Dad. Of course I would defend him. I think now I would not be so defensive, but that’s because I’m 30 and I’ve lived and struggled with things that are my own enough to know that he’s not right. But it doesn’t change the fact that he’s still my dad.

I’m sorry if things said on this blog have hurt you. I know you will take them personally, as you should. I hope on some level, though, you understand that our issue isn’t with your Father, it is with a very passionate and often misguided (though well-intentioned) man who does share great responsibility in wounding, as well as healing, thousands of teenagers. It doesn’t make him a bad person. We only want to find healing for ourselves, as well as prevent unnecessary suffering for other young adults. We’re not perfect, and we don’t have it all figured out. But healing starts here for many of us. I’m truly sorry it causes you more grief.

Anon at 10:56, thats not a current intern

@ Anon 5:10- I think he’s a GI actually.

Wow, this is has been a fascinating thread. I want to say that I agree with Nick and Phil: Hannah has brought up a valid point, though perhaps she wasn’t very thoughtful in her presentation. She came back and unpacked her first comment for us a little bit and was more respectful that time.

Hannah,

I agree with some of the points you’re making (or that I think you’re making). The problem isn’t Teen Mania; there are certain broader cultural and philosophical components at play,and the problems with this ministry are evidence of more systemic problems within western, evangelical Christianity. I think Micah is clearly aware of that fact, but she’s chosen to focus her efforts specifically on helping those who have been wounded by the Honor Academy. This includes people with many different spiritual vantage points, and she doesn’t want to alienate any of them. This deconstruction that you are proposing is very good, and necessary, but it isn’t the point of this blog.

I don’t know you, and I won’t pretend to know anything about you, including where you’re coming from or what your relationship with your dad is like, or anything else. I am, however, curious to hear more of what you have to say, so I really hope that you decide to post again. I want to try to understand why you feel that this blog is a bad thing, and I’d be curious to know where you’re at in terms of your theological evolution.

Thats all. 🙂

I cannot speak for everyone but only as a school administrator of 20 years. I sent my son to the Honor Academy last year and it changed his life. I may not personally agree with every detail, I can say he is stronger spiritually and had experiences that have encouraged his walk with Jesus. Clearly it is a choice to attend, and for me it was the right choice for my son. No person or program is perfect and we should all worry about our own personal walk with Jesus and show more love that reflects Jesus. No one made you stay when attending. As a pastor’s son and in the ministry myself; I have had many issues growing up and as an adult with many things. However, it is all about winning people for the kingdom of God. The issue is salvation and seeking a daily life that reflects Jesus in all we do. The purpose of Honor Academy is to reach the world for Jesus and they do that very well. It is our choice to go or accept their ministry, not judge them.

It is very normal to see a young lady upset and defending her dad. I would caution judging Ron Luce. Whether you agree or disagree; he is a man of God and serves him fully daily. Your battle is not just with the man but the one he serves. Once again, we decide where we attend church and send our children. Focus on what you can do for Jesus, not how others make mistakes.

there are some questions that are burning in side me…if HA is such a bad place then why is God leading so many to attend. are all deceived by ron and others? if so then how are they getting the money to attend such a expensive program? some are just wealthy and have the money but others spend months raising the funds and some miraculously they get the money? I appears as if God is giving the go ahead. so why would God do this if it is such a harmful place?

Jeremy- just for food for thought, how did Blockbuster last as long as it did? 😉 That wasn’t meant to be a serious rebuttal, but just to provoke thought.

The HA is hardly financially healthy- when I left in July ’09, they were over $1.5 million in the hole. And they lose money with almost every ATF event.

So really, it’s only a matter of time. I think the warning flags have been flying for awhile.

Jeremy– You’re assuming that financial “provision” equals God’s direction. But does it always? People are willing to scrape together a lot of money to join Scientology, for instance, and I think you’d agree that’s a false religion nonetheless. TM’s “support raising” techniques are also effective for organizations that are not religious at all–public broadcasting, charities, etc.–so it’s not necessarily miraculous that it works.

You’re also assuming that God’s direction equals God’s approval. Again, does it always? Compare “You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.” God did not approve the evil action but chose to allow it anyway so that good would come about (free will + sovereignty).

In short (1) There are probably lots of people at HA who believe they were led there by God when they weren’t, and (2) even if God does lead people to HA, it doesn’t mean He approves of what’s going on there.

Recovering Alumni- I am not sure what your talking about when referring to battling with God, read my posts. Clearly we all battle with issues all the time. If someone struggles that does not mean you look 2 years before and point the finger. My son took some and did not take other things he was taught. He at no time was brainwashed and clearly it was a positive experience. I am sorry for you that it was not and pray you do recover from what clearly was a bad experience personally for you. Every one is different and what may be a mess for one can be a victory for another. That is why it is a choice to attend and stay. We are a middle class family who sacrificed allot but have seen great fruit and know for us it was a great experience. Whether he struggles down the road or not is up to him, his choices and his actions will define his life as an adult. Once again, it is a choice and there are many that it has changed and blessed. My pastor is an alumni (7 years ago) with around 8 that attended through the years, for them it was and still is a blessing. I pray you can move on and deal with now and where you can be with Jesus. my prayers are with you.

And everyone reading this can see clearly we can easily judge a man or ministry but the final point is we chose where we go and what we do when faced with tests or bad experiences. I would pray you bless and show love reflecting Jesus. If you disagree, take no part in it but do not judge the heart of a man or his calling. There are clearly many who make mistakes or go to far. We decide where we go and where we stay. We cannot live in a bad experience for us personally and define that as a bad experience for all. I am very glad Jesus is forgiving and expects us to live in unconditional love and forgiveness. For my family, we struggled with some issues but my son made a choice to stay and it for him was a right decision. The maturity in that decision has helped him as a man and life.

Dr. Johnson, your experiences in childhood and adolescence impact the adult a child becomes. It affects his choices and his the way he deals with his struggles. Do you believe a child molester bears no responsibility for the adult the child he abused grows into? Do you believe that we should just “forgive and move on” when an adult molests a child? I mean hey, he didn’t molest YOUR kid so he couldn’t possibly be too bad and he talks like a Man of God so obviously he’s not to be judged. Let’s just forget it all and move on. Sound familiar? That’s been going on in the Catholic church for generations and look what kind of damage it has created?

Obviously I’m not saying TM is sexually molesting children but I think there are some strong similarities. Sure, not everyone who goes to HA comes out damaged but enough are that it raises some serious questions about the program. If you take the time to read the entire site including the comments you’ll see that this is not the voice of one ‘disgruntled’ person who can’t get past their bad experience.

2. “I am not sure what your talking about when referring to battling with God, read my posts.”

1. “Whether you agree or disagree; he is a man of God and serves him fully daily. Your battle is not just with the man but the one he serves.”

Maybe I’m wrong but I think it might have been that.

I’ve never been to HA, but I can’t help thinking that any experience that leave people believing “to disagree with a human leader is to battle with God” cannot possibly be a good experience in Christian terms, even if many people think it is.

D said: “I’m not saying TM is sexually molesting children but I think there are some strong similarities.”

I can assure you HA does not molest a child. you saying strong similarities, says just that. There have been very wounded people arrive to HA and it did not help. That issue was before their arrival. clearly not everyone has a great experience at every place. I can only speak as a parent whose son was there last year and how it helped him. I never said battling with a person is the same as God. What I said was judging a person who walks in the ministry is wrong. My input is only as a parent once again who had a son just complete the program. I can clearly tell you it is not for everyone, that is the same anywhere.

Eric,

We can disagree and my son was just there. My issue is this goes beyond disagreeing. Some who are giving statements were very damaged before going to HA. I can only comment from my son’s experiences as a leader there and my experience while visiting many times. It is very sad it seems to causes some to have issues. My current student there has had a wonderful experience the last 4 months and it has encouraged her life. I can only comment on my son who was there last year and my student who is there.

Dr. Johnson,

I find it interesting that you wrote this:

“That is why it is a choice to attend and stay. We are a middle class family who sacrificed allot but have seen great fruit and know for us it was a great experience.”

I have heard this from parents of interns many times. I’m not judging you at all. I just have a question.

Do you think it is possible that some interns and their families defend the HA so greatly because they don’t want to believe that their “sacrifice” has been ill-used?

Also, as one who is just now getting some contact back with old HA friends who have shunned me for about 10 years because I left early, I’d like to take a look again when you wrote, “It’s a choice to attend or stay.”

It’s a choice. That is for sure. Yet, in my experience the choice to “Go/leave” “break your Word/bond” comes with great judgment, guilt, and shame. Is this how a person who chooses to leave a Ministry should feel after working very hard for months?

I also, would like to say, that my choice to stay as long as I did was not because I believed I was in the right place but because I too come from a middle class family who made sacrifices and worked hard to get me there.

But when my parents saw how “robot-like” I had become while home on vacation, they had no problem telling me that “Money is Money. It will come and Go. But I am their child and much more important to them than their sacrifice and Money.”

When they said that, I got love/ freedom to be honest about what I really thought was going on during my internship. My “Word/Bond” had become “Bondage.” I realized God cared more about the Freedom He gave me on the cross than a promise that I made while trying to please a ministry.

Could this be happening to more interns than just me?

I understand when you speak of sacrifice. I do agree it can easily happen to others. I can only speak for my son and a few of my former students not others. Clearly you or others have issues and it was a bad experience. For that I am very sorry and do hope you know that there are places you will find you fit and can find peace. once again, I can only share what I saw as a parent last year and where he was and is now. Not only is he not a robot but a man who truly has a passion for the Lord and has matured in a positive way. I can assure you in 3-5 years his choices will not reflect his time at HA. Clearly it has for some and that is very sad.

Dr Johnson said…
“What I said was judging a person who walks in the ministry is wrong.”

Nothing else you say matters once I read this. This could not be more wrong.

Lisa,
Did not ask you to agree. That is why is in an opinion. We can personally judge and learn but speaking words even to our enemy is wrong. I would be very open for a discussion on actual scripture that says judging is correct when not using Matt. 18. I personally have made many mistakes. I grew up as a pastor’s son and have been in the ministry 23 years. My childhood was horrible but I learned to break free from the generational curses and help my children now. We are very middle class. It is my responsibility to correct and learn but I am very careful not to judge or condemn others. I am more concern about accepting my own faults and responsibilities.

My comment meant to say we should basically be accountable for ourselves and even when speaking to our enemies, we should not condemn. I would be open for any scripture that says we can judge, condemn and not follow Matt. 18. Clearly no place or person is perfect. We learn from mistakes and at times hurt. The tests will get harder but we live for Him not others.

I never meant to cause any hurt or offense. I only shared my experience as a parent. Hopefully healing will come. I am very sorry for some it has caused damage.

????? Matt. 18 says go to the person… you went to Ron Luce. I had an issue last year and directly called him and spoke to him directly at graduation. If in fact you did that… accept my apology. But do realize it also says after bringing a witness and speaking again.. go to the ministry and share your concerns and then move on. I did not realize this had happened but can assure you not everyone has done this….if so, please accept my apology.

Clearly it seems venting online seems healthy. i am very sorry some are wounded. I pray one day you can let it go and know Jesus loves you and walk in a blessed life. This is my last post and I do pray the more you can forgive, the more you can find healing.

Scripture: Tell the church is the last stage… Greek means actual ministry it is involved in only. After that: “It says let him be as a pagan or tax collector”. that reference were those they avoided and stayed away from.

RA- You clearly are not asking questions because you seem to have the answers. My staying or leaving will not change what you intend to say. rjohnson@jics.org. Feel free anytime to discuss this and i will be glad to discuss it with you.

Dr. Johnson,

When you said,

“Clearly you or others have issues and it was a bad experience. For that I am very sorry and do hope you know that there are places you will find you fit and can find peace.”

Please understand that I don’t have “issues.” I am a person who very much so lives my life with Honor, integrity, character. I have been looked upon in my community and church for years now as a person of faith and love. I live for God with much committment. I come from a very good home. This is very much why I could discern during the year of my internship that something was wrong.

I hope this doesn’t sound disrespectful in anyway. I was not implying that your son would have the same experience. I was trying to relate to you in love and describe a different scenerio.

I do have “peace” and the “place” I go to recieve it is, Jesus, and His assured foundation He has built within me.

I have another question. I’m thankful that you answered the first ones I typed.

If your son will not reflect on his days at the HA in the next 3-5 years then, was it worth the year he spent there?

Anonymous,
I do believe people make choices. At this time of his life it has made him stronger and matured him spiritually. In 3-5 years anything can happen and he can encounter major challenges. I do feel the year he spent for him was a blessing. Thank you for you words.

RA,
I just read the complete bio and all stories on this site. It is clear you want to help people and clearly some have had shocking experiences. If I read this I would have struggled sending my son. Clearly there are issues everywhere but some are shocking. i also had issues and addressed them as you did in your letter. My son had a very positive experience but clearly some have had tragic things happen. After reading this it is clear your intent is a warning and an offer to help. We all chose to attend and your site is based off of experiences. My intent was not to judge but share my experience as a parent. Clearly you have helped many.

It may help to find a way someone sees the info and not comments first. It took me to the comments first. Clearly reading info from others and seeing your letter helps understand.

Wow.

Dr. J. I think you’re cool. Bless you! And thank you for being humble. Really it means a lot.

Actually that’s not a bad idea, especially since we’ll get more new traffic if media coverage continues– A “New? Start Here” button that takes newcomers to relevant links (true stories, common objections, general accusations, how we’ve already done the Matthew 18 bit, letter to pro-TM folks, comment policy…)

Dr. J.– You win a prize of some kind.

The first step is being teachable and correctable. Clearly people perish for lack of knowledge. Having a step by step communication as you enter this site makes people less defensive and more informed. Once you get educated with everything it clearly sends red flags and shows there are major issues that need to change there. I appreciate all you do to help the hurting and the more united and informed everyone becomes, they more change may happen.

Thank you for understanding and being patient, I clearly was not informed but I am now.

Dr. Johnson.

Hey I am the Anon that was asking too many questions yesterday. Thanks for you patience. Thanks for checking out things and gaining some more understanding of this site.

I appreciate that you took some time to listen.
You’re cool!

The more I research, the more I learn, being a person with ALLOT of education I have a passion for the truth in all issues:
The facts are clear and however you define it, many are wounded. It is our responsibility as true followers of Jesus to love and encourage healing. How we respond defines our heart. Know matter what reason you can give, how these people were treated was wrong. Someone should seek forgiveness and repentance to the wounded hearts, that is what serving Jesus is all about.

After truly praying over this; it is clear that our responses should be one of love and a desire for healing and restoration. If we cannot be teachable or even react loving, we need to recheck our personal walk. I can tell you my desire is to pray and do whatever I can to seek the truth before going forward.

Dr J,

Man, it’s great to see someone go from the mentality of “It happened, now move on” to one of “Oh man, these people are hurting, and as a believer, I need to show them true love.” That means a lot to me as someone who was hurt by Teen Mania.

Josh ‘Derek’ Ex-Intern 00-01

You are doing a great job! I pray for you every day and know that God is using you to help so many wounded people. Never let the enemy steal your calling and know you have a great ministry to minister to so many wounded people. You are not alone! Be encouraged and press on to the call he has given you!