There is an interesting conversation going on in the forums about Ron Luce’s weekly Character Development class. Does this sound like the heart of a shepherd? Does this reflect Jesus?
My year Ron was very angry at us for not having all the scriptures that he wanted for us to have memorized. During class he threatened us that if we did not memorize the scriptures of that week and the following week by the next class that he would stop teaching us class altogether, as we were wasting his time.
Did this happen to anybody else too? I’m speaking about the class of 2000.
I can’t believe how deep this was hidden in my psyche. . .so much toxic shame.
Another forum member responded with this story:
During my year (’99), Ron had us memorize a ton of scripture. One day, he asked everyone who memorized all of the scripture (15-20 verses) he had assigned the week before to stand up. Half of the auditorium stood up. He was upset and gave us a lecture about how we were out of integrity and how disappointed he was in us, blah blah blah. Then he said that we had to memorize all of the scripture he had already assigned AND gave us a whole other chapter (30ish verses) to memorize by the next week. Now, keep in mind this was also during a VERY busy season for everyone…I remember sleeping 3.5 hrs a night, and skipping lunch just to go back to the dorms and sleep for 30 minutes. I remember also stressing out over trying to memorize all that stuff, and being so exhausted that I couldn’t memorize and retain more than a verse a night.
So the next week, he got up there and asked everyone to stand up who memorized all of the required scripture from last week and the week before. Maybe 15 people stood up. He got LIVID. He totally lost it. He went off on us, telling us that it was a huge sacrifice for him to teach this class, and that his time was extremely valuable. He said if he put in the effort to be there then we needed to put in the effort during the week to do the homework and come prepared. He yelled and basically threw a tantrum…he said much more, but I can’t remember what else he said. Then he unplugged his microphone, and literally stormed out. We all sat there in stunned silence for about 10 minutes, waiting to see if he would return. He didn’t.
I can still remember the look on his face when Ron stormed out. It was cold and violent. I was 7 parts terrified of him, and 3 parts shamed by him. Ugh. I can still feel it in my chest, 11 years later.
The next week, he said that he almost canceled the class altogether and that if we didn’t start working harder then he would not invest in us.
44 comments:
Wow…just…wow…with each posting I get more regretful that we sent our child there at all, or were ever supporters of TM…thank God our eyes were opened by RA’s help and we have been washed in the love and GRACE of our Lord and are blessed to be in a Truth teaching church.
I know the TM supporters will say “this was years ago–things have changed” ….have any recent interns experienced this? Ugh!
I was a January in 2006, and I don’t remember Ron ever getting mad at us about not memorizing scripture. In fact, I think our Character Development assignments were all reading from the book, and not memorizing scripture (I could be wrong about that, I just don’t remember). I actually got through my whole year permanently memorizing about… 2 scriptures, bringing me up to a grand total of 5. Of course, I memorized all the ESOAL scriptures out of terror, but immediately forgot them during my post-quitting shower (which was my absolute favorite part of ESOAL). I’m pretty shocked they let me graduate, ha ha!
It’s not like interns are paying Ron Luce to be there for them…. oh, wait.
For the fruit of the Mania is yelling, shaming, anger, impatience, cruelty, meanness, legalism, harshness, and lack of self-control. Against such things there oughta be a law. (–not Galatians 5:22-23)
The irony of this happening in a “Character Development” class is incredible. It sounds like studying financial ethics from Bernie Madoff.
His time was so valuable that he nearly always went over his allotted time by 15 or 20 minutes. I hated that class.
RL says that his time is very valuable? Sounds like pride to me.
Anonymous, everyone’s time is valuable. How is that pride?
I was an intern in 04-05 and this absolutely never happened in my class. I would remember because it would have upset me so much. Ron is a human just like the rest of us- and yes, RA, i know that doesn’t mean it’s okay, but it’s still the truth; he’s a work in progress too, and clearly in the last ten years he has realized that this attitude was wrong and he should not continue with it.
Btw, i haven’t been here in months and i’m noticing there’s a lot less comments then there used to be on all your posts. It looks like the whole anonymous-angry-intern-shock-jock act is not getting as much of a response anymore.
@Eric I laughed so hard at your comparison, that I dropped my laptop…
I posted something similar to this on the forum just a minute or two ago, however Ron Luce should really think about where his financial standing comes from. If he really examined it, (Dave should do this also by the way)a majority of his funds for his ministry come from those interns that he works to death and insists should be so honored to have one hour of his time a week. I would love to see what would happen without the interns. I imagine within 2 months the ministry would fold.
Lisa-
Yeah, Ron’s a human too…so he should be a little more understanding of the demanding work schedule, lack of sleep, and the de-motivation that occurs when a person most of the interns respect heaps shame and guilt on them.
He should apologize and maybe even refund some of the funds these interns spent to be there if he has truly grown and realized that his attitude was wrong (if not deplorable…)
Lisa,
If I treated thousands of teenagers unjustly, without grace, and imprinted them with deep shame about their very character, it would be appropriate for me to apologize to them. Ask their forgiveness for what I did, and to show them that nobody else will be mistreated in the same way ever again. Even if it was years later. Nobody expects RL to be a perfect person, but we do expect him to be gracious, loving, and when the situation calls for it, repentant.
Also, your attitude about the blog comes off as being very snide. This is a space for those who are recovering, not those who wish to bash those who choose this path of healing. Please stop.
CarrieSum & Anonymous @ 10:13-
Did you guys see this part of my comment? ”
Ron is a human just like the rest of us- and yes, RA, i know that doesn’t mean it’s okay”
I do recognize that Ron’s actions were not okay. It would be right for him to apologize if in fact he did these things back in 2000.
CarrieSum-
I’m sorry for the snide comment. It was rude, you’re right. I definitely want people to choose the path of healing through Jesus Christ, I’m not trying to bash that.
Honestly, though, I have not found this to be primarily a “space for those who are recovering”- rather i have found it to be a space to bash Teen Mania and harp on anyone who’s had a positive experience there as being a brainwashed sheep and a robot of Dave Hasz and Ron Luce. That kind of attitude hurts people too.
Lisa-
Do you think that the hurt Ron and the ministry he founded have caused is really comparable to the hurt feelings of readers of this blog?
Verbal abuse, physical neglect, sleep deprivation, relational chaos, ……compared to a few overly sweeping condemnations by the blog.
Care to clarify….
@Lisa– Actually I think what’s happened is that there are fewer pro-Teen Mania trolls and thus fewer comment battles–therefore fewer comments does not indicate less involvement. Evidently TM has realized that the whole anonymous-angry-intern-snide-comment act is not getting as much of a response anymore.
I’ve heard that Dave Hasz said outright that it’s a sin for interns to visit this site, which may explain why there are fewer trolls. It also might be an example of cult-like “information control.”
Brant Hansen used to do a series called “If Jesus Had a Blog,” which could have featured objections to “ministry bashing” underneath Matthew 23. (Don’t remember if he actually did that one, but he could have.) At least RA hasn’t called Teen Mania “whitewashed tombs” or “brood of vipers” or “sons of hell”– yet!
Anonymous @ 11:26-
I was not trying to make a comparison between the two kinds of hurt (although hurting others is never right no matter what it is, ultimately.) Earlier I posted a comment out of my frustration with the attitude of this blog- i was explaining where that came from.
If you’ve experienced those kinds of hurts through TM, I’m truly sorry to hear that and I don’t mean to minimize your pain at all. I just think that there are better ways to healing than having to bash those who had a positive experience.
Eric-
You make a good point that the pro-TM voice is probably not as vocal on here. I want to say I am not blindly pro-TM, tho- there are problems with the ministry that need to be solved, i’ve been hurt by them, too and i recognize the issues. I just don’t love the overall negativity that i see on this blog.
But Eric- can you tell us where you heard Dave said it was a “sin” for interns to visit this site?? If that’s true, that’s a serious issue. There is nothing wrong with healthy discussion for sure.
I was there when the first shaming happened. It made me feel so small that I completely blocked it from my memory.
Lisa, you asked this: “But Eric- can you tell us where you heard Dave said it was a “sin” for interns to visit this site?? If that’s true, that’s a serious issue. There is nothing wrong with healthy discussion for sure.”
He said it to the graduating class of 2010- it was part of their debriefing. I was on campus (though not in the session) when he said it. I had a few friends (alumni and graduating interns) who all told me this.
He deliberately told them it’s a sin.
Thank you for your apology, Lisa. I appreciate it greatly. No harm.
I’m truly sorry that this blog causes you so much frustration. I can understand it. I think it is probably very similar to what many of us feel towards TM.
In what ways have you seen us specifically bash those who had a positive experience? I am trying hard to remember an instance, but can’t. Can you shed some light on specifics for me here? I am a firm believer that everyone is entitled to their own experience, and truly, I am glad that yours was so positive.
In response to the last few posts of conversation:
Don’t forget that being angry and saying things aloud is for many, part of the healing process. When feelings of hurt and anger are not acknowledged, when interns are taught to fear and revere leadership without question, healthy psychological patterns and processes become deeply damaged.
After 15 years, I still shy away from the thought of expressing my truest, darkest, angriest feelings about my year at Teen Mania. Why? Because they claim the ultimate authority and shun you if you don’t bide by their rules. It is through this website that I began to let those feelings surface and even got the courage to express my disagreement and outrage at the control and manipulation of teenagers by TM. It is wrong. It is evil. It is sick and twisted.
Saying this feels right to me. It feels like I am standing up for what is right and good. It feels like I am defending myself, my life, my
decisions against what was a terrible reign of religious bigotry in my life.
Moriah
@lisa – i appreciate you voice in this conversation. this is my first visit to the site, and you put into words a lot of what i’m feeling while i read it–even apologizing when you came across in a less-than-humble way. so just want to encourage you, keep up the peacemaking 🙂
my family, several close friends and myself have all been wounded without remorse by those who were called by God to shepherd and lead us. my heart genuinely goes out to those who are still struggling with hurts they’ve experienced.
the beautiful things i’ve learned about forgiveness is that it doesn’t require an apology and it brings incredible freedom to the forgiver. i honestly believe Jesus commands infinite forgiveness for our own good.
i’ve also learned forgiveness is a process.
it’s great to see that this site has opened people up so Father can bring things back that need to be dealt with, that need to be healed and forgiven. praying for those going through the process, that you will be able to focus on whatever is true, good, noble, pure, lovely, and praise-worthy…and that in Him you will find the strength to face your hurts and find freedom from them through forgiveness.
ohh that fall day in 2000 when that happened… so ackward and noiseless you could hear a pin drop. forgot about that until now. But yes of course we have time to memorize 12 chapters in between learning our jobs this week.
….*note to self* come up with a new handle as not to be confused with a TM supporter…
“Lisa” from the forums shall henceforth post on the blog as Lisa98 😀
Lisa98 this is why I am known as heartsfire
Lisa98-
I said in an earlier comment that I am not a blind TM supporter. Please don’t say that when you don’t know me at all.
CarrieSaum-
Refer to Lisa98’s comment for the exact thing i was talking about that has hurt me in this forum.
Sorry guys, now i’m all frustrated again….ugh.
Lisa…I never called you blind I wasn’t even saying anything in response to your comments. I just wanted people who usually recognize the handle “Lisa” as me to know it wasn’t me changing my position, which would never be in support of TM, blind or otherwise. I believe it’s possible that you perceived my comment as hurtful when it wasn’t even pointed at you. Even still… I am sorry my comment hurt you.
Lisa98-
Okay. Thank you for saying that. To me it came off as condescending I guess, like you’d never want to be confused with someone like me. I see what you mean, though, that you were making sure people didn’t think you were changing your opinion. Either way, though, I appreciate the apology.
And If it helps, i’ll start going by my first and middle names together;-)
I DO remember this happening, although I don’t remember the specifics of it. I just remember trying to sit in the back so that he wouldn’t choose me to say the verses we were supposed to have memorized. LOL
What I DO remember, though, was something that happened during a class that any interns who were interested in becoming PA’s the next semester (this was pre-HA) had to take. It was once a week for several weeks. Dave Hasz had given us a handful of verses to memorize and most of us didn’t do it. He basically said that if we didn’t memorize the verses he asked us to, then we were not responsible enough to be a PA where we would be responsible for all of the people in our room.
I just remember thinking that I was SO busy ALL the time that I barely had time to take a shower, much less remember these assignments ON TOP of CD class and perspectives and working and outreach and church and kitchen duty and on and on and on.
Well, so far, it looks like this only happened in 97,99 and 2000.
So there’s that. Small consolation to the people that lived through it.
Only 1,500 people publicly shamed. . .
For what it’s worth, in 2008, TM did their first Mass Car Wash (sending all the interns out by family core to wash cars for free in several different areas throughout Tyler/Lindale/etc), having us call home and raise support “per car washed, up to 1000” (example: get people to commit to donating ten cents for every car washed, for example).
I’m pretty sure this event was mandatory.
Anywho, in Enrichment class (this was either right before or right after the actual event), Hasz asked everyone who had raised any money for TM through this event to stand up.
I think like a small handful did.
There was no yelling, no temper tantrum, no spitting or stomping. Just something along the lines of, “now, think about how much MORE money we could’ve raised if MORE people got involved”.
So while it wasn’t an outright rebuke, it was pretty subtley condemning.
Then again we were all trying to fundraise for missions trips/the rest of our year/our GI year, so at the time he could suck it for all I cared.
I remember when Ron got all pissy at us for not memorizing the versus. I walked out on week two and never went back.
I can stand here and say that Ron walked out of a 2008-2009 CD class for us not memorizing verses. He was livid and we were told to spend the rest of the class memorizing the vereses we hadn’t memorized. I remember being scared that I would be dismissed if I didn’t get the verses memorized.
Earlier that year he had us all do push – ups if we hadn’t memorized the assigned scriptures.
Lyssa Kay,
Thank you for sharing that.
Perhaps this is a technique Ron uses every year to scare the interns into submission?
Nothing endears you to Scripture more than being threatened if you don’t memorize it. Not.
Well, Lyssa Kaye’s comment above completely destroyed my point that Ron has changed over the past ten years. Darn it:-/
Honestly, though, I am really disappointed to hear that that’s still going on. That is really unacceptable. I’m sorry you had to go through that.
Ron Luce is a bully….
OMG that pushup comment totally gave me a flashback – I TOTALLY remember having to spread out during CD class one time so we could all do pushups and that’s probably why. LOL.
Ron was always very…. testy in CD class. Probably because he was running on 2 hours of sleep. I Graduated in 2006. Ron definitely got upset with us when we did not memorize however He never stormed out. We had other verses to memorize weekly on top of that.
Nunquam Honorablus-
I talked to a current Jan intern today and he told me that Dave def never said it was a sin to visit this site. He wasn’t in debriefing either, but on campus at the time. This came up because he said “it had been a month” since he had come on here and read some of the posts, and I said, “Wait, you were on this site while you were an intern? I thought Dave said it was sin…?” He laughed at that and said he’d never heard that at all.
I don’t know, I’m just unsettled with this now because it makes me sad to think that people are lying in this situation….
Lisa- well, here’s the thing. He’s a Jan, and like you said, he wasn’t there. I wasn’t there either, so that WOULD make my statement mute…
Except for the fact that the three people who told me this, are ALL pro-Teen Mania. Not blindly so, but enough to where they favor TM over the RA community.
They would have no reason to lie about something like that if they were in support of RA.
Sorry if that sounded kind of attacking! I’m multitasking, and after rereading that last post, I want to be sure that if there was a bite to it, I neutralized it with reassurance that it wasn’t intentional 😉
Nunquam-
No worries! I didnt take your first comment to be rude at all. That’s an interesting point that the friends who told you that do support TM…but if this Jan i talked to (btw, he’s not a friend of mine, i just called up the HA Mob number and talked to him, lol- they’re there answering the phones so why not, right?) but if he is telling the truth that he’s never heard Dave say that, at least it means that Dave hasn’t continued to tell the interns that they can’t come on here or even worse, they haven’t blocked this site with their (overactive) Internet filters. That’s relatively good news I guess…
PS Nunquam- Btw, I *love* your name, lol. I cracked up the first time i read it…i took Latin for 6 years in Jr. High and high school, and actually gave up a scholarship to study classical languages at a college in California in order to go to HA- I was so frustrated when i was given a ring that said “Honorablus”- a totally fake Latin word, lol.
So, I went back through the blog and checked out a few random post’s to see if I still agreed with what you were saying…
This blog passed the test with…
Sorry to go grave digging, but one major thing I remember when I was an intern was the lack of communication. If a rule was word of mouth and not written down (and stupidly quizzed over), then you would get 3 different stories to the rule.
IE: It is okay to visit the site. It’s not okay to visit the site. What site? (BTW, I’m a Jan 07)