That’s pretty much what I think of every time I hear about ESOAL. For those of you who are uninitiated, ESOAL stands for Emotionally Stretching Opportunity of a Lifetime. The interns call it “torture camp” for short. In reality, it should probably be called EABTNG or Emotionally Abusive Brainwashing and Torture in the Name of God.
Am I being too harsh here? After all, surely they wouldn’t actually torture innocent kids who are paying to be there and who trust their every word. If torture was going on, surely the news and police would be all over them. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
I am here to unequivocally state that ESOAL uses well known brainwashing techniques including:
- Verbal Abuse
- Sleep Deprivation
- Fatigue
- Restricted Diet
- Excessive exact repetition of routine activities
- Dehumanizing of individuals by keeping them in filth
- Assault on identity
- Guilt
- Self-betrayal
- Breaking point
- Compulsion to confess
- Chanting and repetitive Music
Even without understanding the science and psychology behind these brainwashing techniques, where in Scripture do we see Christ using any of these practices on his followers? Clearly, Scripture says we will be persecuted. Nearly all of the disciples were martyrs. But they didn’t go looking for it. They didn’t practice on each other. This is something that is never endorsed or commanded by Jesus. He said to love one another, think the best of one another, forgive and care for one another.
Forcing people to roll endlessly down vomit covered hills, depriving them of food and sleep, continuously hurling insults and verbal abuse at them – I don’t see how any of this behavior is even remotely justifiably by Jesus nature or Scripture.
If you doubt the severity of the abuse in ESOAL, please read these personal accounts and make up your own mind:
To read up on the psychology of brainwashing, here are two of many resources:
How Brainwashing Works
Pyschological Findings
65 comments:
Dan Hillmansays:September 30, 2009 at 4:26 PMReply
ESOAL was after my time. I heard about it here and there. As a runner, it sounded like an intriguing challenge. But to use it to screw with people psychologically is abusive and wrong.
This passage seems particularly applicable:
Colossians 2:6-23 – “6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[b] God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21″Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.”
One other note: Be careful that in confronting Teen Mania that you don’t swing the pendulum to the other extreme. One way to do this is to use Scripture as much as possible to criticize Teen Mania’s faults.
Anonymoussays:October 19, 2009 at 12:51 PMReply
You think bootcamp is any easier? Think again. It’s actually worse. Go through “Hell Week” (the official title of the United States Gov’t).
katydidsays:January 22, 2010 at 11:06 AMReply
to the last ‘anon’ bootcamp question–I don’t understand your point–interns are not in the US Army–they are at a Christian organization. That said, I know that Luce and Hasz model a lot of things after military stuff. I know we are enduring spiritual warfare–but I don’t understand ESOAL. RAs whole point seems to have been missed here. ESOAL is abusive and as I read more about it I am stunned that my relative went through this.
It is actually hard to get this relative to even talk about it–this person rang out the second day and I know was made to feel bad about ringing out so early–even though they had an injury that would have been made much worse if they continued. I’m glad this person listened to their body. The whole ‘beating my body” thing is beyond me. From what I can glean, it seems that the interns are forbidden to talk about this experience–the lessons they are supposedly to learn are between them and God.
I’ve talked to several alum and it seems that they really can’t process what happened to them there during ESOAL–I think they are afraid to talk honestly about this. The verbal abuse and physical treatment they endure are off the charts. Yes, I know the idea is to prepare them for life’s tough experiences–but give me a break–unless they go on into the military this is ridiculous…
RA’s question ‘Are they on crack?” is a good one–ESOAL is abusive and definitely brainwashing–to break these kids down and to submit to THEIR authority is HAs agenda–their authority–not God’s.
Jesus was scourged 39 times for our sin and suffered death for our sins. And He triumphed over death and the grave–so that we don’t have to. It is already done!!! These kids should not have to endure this abuse! (and don’t post responses that the kids sign up for ESOAL–don’t kid yourself–they are pressured and guilted into doing this)
Read Dan’s post–esp. Col 2:13-15 and 20-23
Nunquam Honorablussays:January 22, 2010 at 11:30 AMReply
Katydid, you’re so right. I remember being asked if people ever just don’t sign up because they don’t want to do it.
I couldn’t even wrap my head around the concept; it just doesn’t cross your mind. It’s so hard to understand the suppressed culture unless you’ve been in it. Even then, I don’t understand 😛
I guess Jesus got off easy; His ESOAL was only 12 hours long!!
Ex-Intern Aug 07says:January 22, 2010 at 11:43 AMReply
Katydid – Yes interns are forbidden to talk about ESOAL, and Dave even admits that it’s due to the fact that people would think Teen Mania was a cult.
I never did ESOAL, and I’m glad!
Anonymoussays:January 28, 2010 at 6:31 PMReply
i was there the first year ESOAL was in action. they replaced the Cross Walk with this. i opted not to do it and was guilted and shamed for my unpopular decision. that was one of the few wise decision i made that year to protect myself. i hope other current interns who read this take note: ESOAL is not jesus, it is abuse. and just because you “choose” to do it doesn’t make it any less abusive.
Richard Ferris – FreedomBy2says:March 10, 2010 at 6:40 AMReply
I am appalled by this! I was an intern in 1990 with Keith Wheeler (in Tulsa, OK). I often look back at my experience in Teen Mania Internship and thank God that He had Keith as the head that year. I watched other interns who continued for a couple more years really change. The heart of the ministry went from reaching the world, witness for Christ, and making Jesus our #1 aim – to making Teen Mania ‘it’ in all things.
Under Keith Wheeler, I learned the love for study, questioning ideas, serving others at my own expense, etc. I had very little interaction with Ron Luce.
I remember my roommate and I decided to do a 2 week fast during that year. I lost 25 pounds and really had a very cool experience and even bonded with my other interns more. But that was MY choice to do. The internship didn’t mandate anythihng like that.
How in the world did the internship evolve into this Honour Academy? Who could ever sanction ESOAL and what true benefit can it bring to one’s walk with Jesus Christ as His disciple?
Jesus discipled 12 disciples…and one betrayed Him. Yet these 11 went on to lead, reach, disciple and transform their world, which in turn perpetuated the Good News of forgiveness through Jesus Christ throughout the rest of the world.
The early Christians were martyred for their faith, for their stance. They didn’t need an ESOAL experience to prepare them for that. Jesus said the world would hate us. Peter was crucified upside down. Where was his ESOAL experience to prepare him for that?
I disconnected with Teen Mania after my internship experience for other reasons – but I am very glad now that I did.
Shannonsays:March 16, 2010 at 8:43 AMReply
It seems that there are a lot of things that TM wanted to keep secret. I remember being told not to talk about ESOAL outside of HA because it would ruin the experience for potential interns. I don’t think that is true other than to say that if you actually knew what you were getting yourself into you might think twice about doing it.
Anonymoussays:March 30, 2010 at 12:43 AMReply
from what I’ve read here, everyone is making ESOAl sound worse than it really is. Like there’s some secret conspiracy at TM.
by the way it only kept secret to keep the new interns to know what was they were getting in to. it enhanced the whole experience not knowing what to expect.
Nunquam Honorablussays:March 30, 2010 at 9:29 AMReply
Anon, we’re not even allowed to tell our parents.
And I’m pretty sure they’re not gonna be joining the internship any time soon.
Jeremysays:March 31, 2010 at 11:23 PMReply
I rather enjoyed esoal. at the time I didn’t but looking back now, it wasn’t all that bad. don’t get me wrong I didn’t enjoy being caked in mud for two days, or eating out of a diaper or just eating baby food. but I would hardly call that torture.
it’s funny how you (RA) are trying to equate esoal with biblical principle, when Dave himself never did. and that you say that they used brainwashing techniques. yea, right.
so tell me if there is this such brainwashing going on, then what’s the ultimate goal at TM?
what do they hope to accomplish by brainwashing the interns? more money? more interns?
Recovering Alumnisays:March 31, 2010 at 11:25 PMReply
Jeremy,
Are you even familiar with brainwashing techniques? Look them up and you’ll see many of them used at ESOAL. If you disagree with that, you are disagreeing with vast bodies of literature and recognized standards in the psychology and sociology community.
Dave does equate it to Biblical principles. Ever heard of BAR? Burial and Resurrection??
How do I know what the ultimate goal at TM is? I’m not in their heads…but yeah, it certainly could be more money and more interns which equals more power and privilege for them….
Laurensays:April 21, 2010 at 11:07 AMReply
Something occured to me when I read this post… When I think through my life, it has been the moments that I was shown love and acceptance that have impacted me the most – those moments have been more life-changing than any challenge I have survived. Just think of how powerful an experience we would have had if the HA was fashioned around loving community and acceptance and patience in honesty, rather than constantly confronting and pushing each other to be perfect despite any hurt!
Lewissays:June 6, 2010 at 7:34 PMReply
Jeremy…You just admitted that they covered you in filth, fed you baby food, and you ate out of a diaper.
Nah, there’s no way any brainwashing would happen in such a stable environment.
Anonymoussays:July 31, 2011 at 7:49 PMReply
all i can tell you all is that i didnt have the experience of esoal that you all did. but what i can tell you is that we all go through tough stuff. while i was at teen mania i grew so much closer to God. i been on so many mission trip to alot of places.
meg gooden
mom of ex-internsays:August 1, 2011 at 6:47 AMReply
“katydid says: January 22, 2010 11:06 AM Reply
to the last ‘anon’ bootcamp question–I don’t understand your point–interns are not in the US Army–they are at a Christian organization. That said, I know that Luce and Hasz model a lot of things after military stuff. I know we are enduring spiritual warfare–but I don’t understand ESOAL. RAs whole point seems to have been missed here. ESOAL is abusive and as I read more about it I am stunned that my relative went through this.
It is actually hard to get this relative to even talk about it–this person rang out the second day and I know was made to feel bad about ringing out so early–even though they had an injury that would have been made much worse if they continued. I’m glad this person listened to their body. The whole ‘beating my body” thing is beyond me. From what I can glean, it seems that the interns are forbidden to talk about this experience–the lessons they are supposedly to learn are between them and God.
I’ve talked to several alum and it seems that they really can’t process what happened to them there during ESOAL–I think they are afraid to talk honestly about this. The verbal abuse and physical treatment they endure are off the charts. Yes, I know the idea is to prepare them for life’s tough experiences–but give me a break–unless they go on into the military this is ridiculous…
RA’s question ‘Are they on crack?” is a good one–ESOAL is abusive and definitely brainwashing–to break these kids down and to submit to THEIR authority is HAs agenda–their authority–not God’s.
Jesus was scourged 39 times for our sin and suffered death for our sins. And He triumphed over death and the grave–so that we don’t have to. It is already done!!! These kids should not have to endure this abuse! (and don’t post responses that the kids sign up for ESOAL–don’t kid yourself–they are pressured and guilted into doing this)
Read Dan’s post–esp. Col 2:13-15 and 20-23
Anonymous says: March 30, 2010 12:43 AM Reply
from what I’ve read here, everyone is making ESOAl sound worse than it really is. Like there’s some secret conspiracy at TM.
by the way it only kept secret to keep the new interns to know what was they were getting in to. it enhanced the whole experience not knowing what to expect.
Nunquam Honorablus says: March 30, 2010 9:29 AM Reply: ANON, WE’RE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO TELL OUR PARENTS.
And I’m pretty sure they’re not gonna be joining the internship any time soon.
Ex-Intern Aug 07 says: January 22, 2010 11:43 AM Reply
Katydid – Yes interns are forbidden to talk about ESOAL, and Dave even admits that it’s due to the fact that people would think Teen Mania was a cult.”
THIS!!! I stumbled up this from a while back and feel it is worth bringing to the forefront again while we are discussing the extremism that goes on there. PARENTS OF POTENTIAL INTERNS–LOOK FURTHER INTO THIS!!!
heartsfiresays:August 1, 2011 at 8:59 AMReply
Meg, My question to you is did you grow closer to God? Or have you grown in the works you think he wants without having a true relationship with God where the Holy spirit guides your hand. The reason ESOAL is so damaging is that it pushes you closer to trying to PROVE your relationship with God through your efforts, even the physical cry of “there is no bell” which is commonly heard in the more recent ESOALs is there to make you try to think that if you ring out you are less before God, but God doesn’t care if you ring out on day one or don’t even do it. He doesn’t he cares about your heart about if whatever you do you love him first. The rest is between you and him and doesn’t require outward physical actions of strength. When you learn God’s heart what happened at Teen Mania will seem odd even if you “had a good experience”.
Anonymoussays:August 5, 2011 at 10:08 PMReply
ok so ESOAL is based off of the Navy Seal’s “Hell Week” correct? Yes! So, is the point your making that our armed forces are crazy and brainwashed they indulge in this? Or that our Government has lost it by asking them to do the exact things you mentioned in this post? Because If you were to hear from a Navy Seal (I have) they would inform you that yeah it’s intense but it’s to only train them for the task they will have to perform to keep us as American citizens safe! Let’s just remember that the same Navy Seals that Killed the biggest terrorist in the world had to do an “ESOAL” of their own. Same things apply to the interns. It is simply preparing them for the battle.
From what I have read from your blog post. You are here to “Help previous interns recover from the abuse of Teen Mania.” My suggestion would be to get back to that, because all you are doing is hating on Teen Mania instead of forgiving and moving on with your life. Your determination is to put TM in a bad light and get as many people to believe the lies you tell them. Oh wait isn’t that a lot like Satan? He got mad at God and now hates God, gets others to do so, and wants to get as many people against him as possible.
Recovering Alumnisays:August 5, 2011 at 10:10 PMReply
So I’m like Satan? lol
Alum from both military and the HA have already addressed your concerns elsewhere on the blog. Navy Seals Hell Week is run by PROFESSIONALS and the participants are SCREENED. Neither of those things happen at the HA. Those are just 2 of the many things that separate the two events.
Anonymoussays:August 5, 2011 at 10:31 PMReply
please educate me on the rest of them?
Recovering Alumnisays:August 5, 2011 at 10:45 PMReply
1) ESOAL is given as a measure of your spirituality and/or tool for spiritual growth. Hell Week is not tied to your spirituality.
http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2011/03/honor-academy-esoal-is-not-optional.html
and
http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2011/02/katie-luce-on-esoal_28.html
2) Medical professionals will not sit by while Navy Seals experience broken bones, panic attacks etc. Here, Dave Hasz and multiple facilitators laugh at an intern having a panic attack:
http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2011/03/honor-academys-esoal-disturbing-footage.html
3) The Navy has highly regulated and proven techniques overseen by professionals, not mostly 2nd year interns and some military wanna-bes. In addition, ESOAL’s “oversight committee” is made up of friends of TM with little to no experience in this specific type of event.
http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2010/11/teen-manias-esoal-oversight-committee.html
4) A Marine’s Point of View:
http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2010/09/marines-point-of-view.html
Anonymoussays:August 5, 2011 at 10:52 PMReply
Have you ever sat by an watched a Hell Week with the Seals? If not then how are you so certain that they take these precautions? Also it amazes me that HA has real Seals out to run the course and they haven’t come out saying any of the things you have said! They count it as an equivalent!! Also your resources are from your own blog making them bias and therefore invalid (Especially #4 because we are not talking about the Marines we are talking about Navy Seals… Big difference) Now if you can give me some other proof that does not come from your blog I’ll be glad to read it.
Recovering Alumnisays:August 5, 2011 at 10:54 PMReply
Here you go: http://www.dallascult.com/index.php?page_id=277
Though clearly, you’ve already made up your mind.
Anonymoussays:August 5, 2011 at 11:26 PMReply
Well I guess following Jesus in world’s eyes is equivalent to a cult! We are suppose to have extreme devotion to God. God changes our lives, our thoughts(purifies our minds), actions, habits,and lifestyle. We are to pursue Christ’s goals for our lives! However how does this apply to our conversation on ESOAL.
Recovering Alumnisays:August 5, 2011 at 11:29 PMReply
Anon – I’ve provided SPECIFIC FACTS backed up by multiple witnesses and trained psychologists (who also happen to be Christians). You have provided only vauge opinions devoid of specific facts and provable information. You can believe whatever you want, but don’t expect to convince anyone by “debating” in this way.
Anonymoussays:August 5, 2011 at 11:32 PMReply
Everything I just said was biblical do you want the scriptures?
Recovering Alumnisays:August 5, 2011 at 11:33 PMReply
No.
Anonymoussays:August 5, 2011 at 11:36 PMReply
Didn’t think so!!
Recovering Alumnisays:August 5, 2011 at 11:39 PMReply
Sadly, the ability to understand irony is often lost on those who are brainwashed. 🙁
Anonymoussays:August 5, 2011 at 11:44 PMReply
Name calling real mature… very professional. Im super impressed! (sarcasm)
Jan2010says:August 6, 2011 at 2:44 AMReply
I wonder if Anonymous has ever had any first hand experience with ESOAL.
heartsfiresays:August 6, 2011 at 12:05 PMReply
Teen mania tends to back up their stuff with scripture we all know this having been there, the problem is that they back up their stuff with very twisted scriptures used very out of context. Usually what the Scripture actually means when read as part of the whole text is VERY different than what Teen Mania says it does. For instance “I will beat my body….” What it actually means is spiritual discipline not physically flogging one’s self by going though arbitrary events like ESOAL.
Recovering Alumnisays:August 6, 2011 at 12:10 PMReply
I don’t know why I allow myself to get sucked into these pointless debates. I guess I was just bored on a Friday night.
I will spend one more comment clarifying and then I am done with this anonymous commenter.
You asked if I wanted to see Scripture – this means you CLEARLY DID NOT READ THE LINKS I SENT YOU in response to your previous questions. I have addressed MULTIPLE TIMES and in MANY PLACES how TM twists Scripture and takes it out of context when using it as a support or rationale for ESOAL. Your comments implying that I’m like Satan and that I don’t want to hear the Scripture are ABSOLUTELY OUT OF LINE AND RIDICULOUS.
I talk about Scripture and what it means in the majority of my posts here. I already know all of your reasons and all of Teen Mania’s reasons, but you refuse to listen and consider the merits of mine.
I am done talking with you.
shouldcarelesssays:August 7, 2011 at 11:46 AMReply
My brother-in-law was a Navy Seal. He went through SEAL training, etc. Ask him how much he had to go through JUST to get into the SEAL program, and he will tell you that it was a year-long vetting process just to be accepted into the program. And that was after two years of active duty in the Navy. He went through hell week, and almost didn’t survive. He had a massive sinus infection that he managed to hide for a few days and then fell off the face of a cliff as he was climbing it bc he lost his balance and nearly died from the fall (first) and then the infection (second). He will tell you that the reason why he didn’t want to “ring out” was because he would have to do that all over again, and that he would have to do it with another class. He KNEW he was doing something stupid in not telling his superiors, and he was majorly reprimanded for not telling someone earlier. In fact, they have periodic verbal evaluations regarding how their bodies are holding up. They DO have doctors standing by during the process, an entire team of EMTs and ER nurses and doctors who have most likely been on the frontlines of some war or military conflict. He heard that TM is simulating this, and he was horrified and furious. It’s not okay for civilians. I will also say that in order to be a SEAL, most of the candidates usually lack a True North on their moral compass, since they are trained assassins. I’m just sayin’.
1st Time Mommysays:August 7, 2011 at 10:21 PMReply
Hahahaha!!!!! Anonymous, you gave me a bunch of laughs tonight because your arguments are ridiculous. I am sure your heart is intending to do right, however, you come off sounding extremely ignorant. Just as you may have had a good experience, others have had bad experiences. This blog is intended for those persons to recover. Who are you to try and steal that experience from those recovering? It’s just very sad to me.
RA-Not only were you compared to Satan, but TM is God in Anon’s scenario. Buahaha!
Ericsays:August 8, 2011 at 12:13 PMReply
Anonymous– Might one of those Scriptures be Colossians 2? You know, the one that says “severe treatment of the body is without any merit in restraining the sinful flesh”?
…Oh, they were too busy teaching you that ESOAL helps you overcome your flesh and achieve “Burial and Resurrection” to tell you that the Bible says the opposite? Hmm, I wonder why that might be.
Anonymoussays:November 2, 2011 at 2:02 PMReply
I went through ESOAL and I think this article is taking things way out of context.
You dont have to do ESOAL.
You can leave anytime.
It was really hard, yes, but I never felt in complete danger. I knew I could walk away and get water (which was always avail). I could always leave if I needed to.
If anything I think HA interns should be made aware before that this is not life or death — there should be more prep and less mystery around the retreat.
BAAAAA…
Anonymoussays:November 6, 2011 at 10:51 PMReply
wow. this is wayyyy too dramatic. I am an Alumni and it is optional, you people are too sensitive. THEY CLEARLY STATE that you can drop out at any time you want and because of that fact I really don’t see why people are having to recover from something that they were continuing to choose every minute during ESOAL…and why blame Teen Mania? people are always so quick to blame Dave and Teen Mania for everything, it angers me so much. Honestly people instead of spending time on here blogging or arguing about these things we should be seeking the Lord and out serving him.
YES ESOAL is intense but thats what makes it what it is.
Anonymoussays:November 9, 2011 at 5:57 AMReply
I have never heard of TM or ESOAL before today. I’ve been reading a lot of this blog for hours and feel compelled to respond to this thread. My husband was in the military and went through basic training, which is not as tough as SEAL training (his brother went through that) but it includes similar tests and activities. According to both my husband and his brother, one purpose of extreme military training experiences is to break down individuals so that they will more readily accept authority and respond to orders. This is essential to not only the success of military actions but to the survival of soldiers. From everything I’ve read here, it makes sense that the leadership of the TM organization seeks to break individuals with the goal of rendering them more compliant to authority. It seems an unnecessary and dangerous activity for young people not headed for a battelfield.
Aprilsays:November 14, 2011 at 11:17 PMReply
Here’s another difference between ESOAL and the military:
Military leaders have received specific training in order to take recruits through boot camp. All of the activities and exercises have been designed and/or evaluated by medical professionals to ensure they can be completed with some degree of safety. After all, the military invests a lot of money into training each soldier; it is against their interests to injure them. Also, each activity has a specific purpose–a physical, real-world application on the battlefield. And I have never heard an instance where soldiers were forbidden to talk about their boot camp experience.
That is not the case at the HA. I doubt David Hasz or anyone else there has had a single day of drill sergeant training. ESOAL activities have clearly not been designed or evaluated by medical professionals; otherwise, interns wouldn’t be coming down with meningitis and staph infections every year.
The secrecy aspect alone raises giant red flags for me. When someone says you can’t talk about your experience because they want it to be “more intense” for future participants or because outsiders “won’t understand,” that’s a CLEAR sign that something crazy is going on. If we can’t openly talk about the experiences that drew us closer to the Lord, how can we expect to be effective witnesses?
I mean, can you imagine the reaction of someone listening to the following story: “So I was eating this catfood and wanting to gag SO BAD, but then I thought about Jesus dying on the cross for me and was somehow able to choke it down…and when I got off the hill I felt closer to him than I ever had before, knowing he stopped me from gagging…” Try that one out in front of a mirror first and see if it sounds as insane as it reads.
Richard Ferris – FreedomBy2says:November 15, 2011 at 11:16 AMReply
I just read Aprils’ comment – quoting the person who said “and when I got off the hill I felt closer to him than I ever had before, knowing he stopped me from gagging…”
What I find interesting is the need for evangelicals to create situations for suffering to grow their faith. It is sad really. Real suffering exists – and God allows it into our lives to deepen and strengthen our faith for sure.
But I do not see any admonitions in scripture which would call for us to create suffering in our lives. Rather – GO and be salt and light and the sufferings will follow.
It is sad that sincere Christians will think they are now deeper, wiser, or close to Jesus because they endured a man made obstacle course. I am running a “Metro Dash” course here soon in Orlando and fully intend that I will throw up somewhere along the course. But I am not doing this race for the Kingdom. Maybe I will learn something about myself along the way – but my intention is to challenge myself physically – having NOTHING to do with my faith in Jesus Christ.
I will trust God to bring me what I need to deepen my faith. And I am reminded that He ALREADY has – the Word of God, the sacraments (His Body and Blood, baptism, etc)
One should not have to invent a fantasy world of challenges in order to become more in the real world.
Anonymoussays:November 26, 2011 at 3:25 PMReply
By the power of the Most High God. The God of Abraham.Issacc, and Jacob. I stand in the gap to take authority over this ministrys foundation. From top to bottom,east,north,west and south and command that HaShem distroy IT. Then restore to every person effected to receive Shalom…..the true peace of God that destroys CAOS…….May you now be renewed body,mind,spirit,soul by the fullness of his ginuine Love, Compassion, wisdom. Because of His commitment to you, His most valuable created and beloved…who he declared to BE GOOD……Baruch HaShem! My Jewish heart aches for you all….
Anonymoussays:January 8, 2012 at 7:48 PMReply
Richard Ferris: I find your comments insightful and life-giving. Thank you. Cannot agree with you more.
Anonymoussays:January 14, 2012 at 2:53 PMReply
i just wanna say that i just graduated from the Honor Academy last August and so i just got out of my Intern year!! and when we did ESOAL, they didn’t make me do it, i had the decision not to do and so i helped out so i was pretty much there the entire time watching it and i also was the person to check out the person after they had rungout and i can tell you that when they rang out they didn’t make them feel bad, that they are a loser, i also heard Mr. Stoner say that he was very proud of that person!! now if you don’t believe me watch this video of the recent on, this past sept, its now called the PEARL and some things have changed, but its still ESOAL!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVzWkmtcpLY
Anonymoussays:January 14, 2012 at 3:11 PMReply
and all i saw that entire time was joy, happiness, and people my year actually had a lot of fun!!! and my family core still says that ESOAL was prob the most memorable moment out of their whole year at the Honor Academy and my year at the Honor Academy was the most incredible year of my life God has bless me so much that past year!!! he has blessed me with the best second family in the world and this includes my GE mission team Dallas Z too!!! and i am actually thinkin bout goin back to work for Teen Mania in the next couple years, i love it so much!! also i’m goin on another mission trip with a good brother of my from my trip to Dallas!! I love Teen Mania and no one like Ron Luc nor David Hasz make me write any of this!! these people are my family and they are such a blessing to me!!
Recovering Alumnisays:January 14, 2012 at 3:36 PMReplyThis comment has been removed by the author.
Recovering Alumnisays:January 14, 2012 at 3:36 PMReply
Anonymous – Many of us here would have written that same thing at one point in our lives…Then we went out into the real world and became adults…
Also, I thought ESOAL was supposed to be “emotionally stretching” – how is it stretching if everyone is so happy all the time?
Shannon Kishsays:January 14, 2012 at 4:31 PMReply
Anon, THANK you for the link to the PEARL videos!
Nunquam Honorablussays:January 14, 2012 at 5:05 PMReply
Anon, I am relieved that Ron Luc did not make you write this, and that it came from the heart.
RA- it’s stretching you to see just how happy they CAN make you! Aaaa ta ta, sneaky sneaky. *finger wag*
Ericsays:January 14, 2012 at 5:39 PMReply
>”its now called the PEARL and some things have changed, but its still ESOAL!!”
Thanks, Anonymous! Exactly what we thought all along.
So, when Ron Luce and Dave Hasz said they don’t do ESOAL anymore now that they do PEARL, they weren’t telling the truth? That’s “the intent to deceive,” isn’t it?
Anonymoussays:January 23, 2012 at 11:40 PMReply
um actually a lot of my brothers and sisters from my family core and everyone else in my August class we still laugh bout ESOAL and we all agree that it was prob the most memorable moment out of our whole intern year!!! and i do wanna say that David Hasz and Ron Luce are part of my Teen Mania family and i will protect them, speak positive bout them and i also wanna state that they are human, so yeh they are not perfect!! and those men i still admire so much and every time i get stumped and when life get s tough i still go back to my notes from my HA class and i was say now what did David Hasz or Heath Stoner talk bout this!! to all of you for some sad reason hate David Hasz,Ron Luce, the rest of the staff or anyone else from Teen Mania you all should all BE ASHAMED and you guys call yourselves, followers of Christ yet you insult your own Brothers in the Lord, and let me remind you all who their FATHER IS!!! you insult God’s children, then you have insulted God Almighty himself!! and like i said before Teen Mania is my second family so i will stand up for them, because i really do know them and you guys have no idea who you guys are talking bout!! and without a lot of these people especially David Hasz, Ron Luce and Heath Stoner my relationship with God wouldn’t be has deep as it is now!!! so please before you post something on here, check to see if you have all your facts straight and pray to see if God rlly wants you to post that up for the world to see!!
Luke 6:37-38″Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
Luke 6:41-42 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye”.
Nunquam Honorablussays:January 23, 2012 at 11:57 PMReply
” to all of you for some sad reason hate David Hasz,Ron Luce, the rest of the staff or anyone else from Teen Mania you all should all BE ASHAMED and you guys call yourselves, followers of Christ yet you insult your own Brothers in the Lord, and let me remind you all who their FATHER IS!!! you insult God’s children, then you have insulted God Almighty himself!!”
Anon, I can understand your enthusiasm and your pure intentions to defend those who are dear to your heart. That’s admirable.
But you’re putting them on the same level as GOD. Scary. Try to take a step back and let it sink in. Not to prove a point or to win an argument, but for YOUR sake.
wanderersays:January 24, 2012 at 7:58 AMReply
Also anon, would you please tell your second family that they are wickedly hurtful & abusive to others on a consistent basis? That would be great, thanks. They don’t seem to care when anyone else tells them.
Ericsays:January 24, 2012 at 2:03 PMReply
> “you insult God’s children, then you have insulted God Almighty himself!!”
Anon– Numquam is right. To anyone who knows even a little bit about cults, it’s very frightening to see that you equate TM’s leaders with God. That’s what cult members do. (See A Model of Spiritually Abusive Language.)
According to the Bible, no human leader is above public correction:
“Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith” (Titus 1:13)
“Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.” (1 Timothy 5:20– referring to elders, see v. 19)
“Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” (Ephesians 5:11)
I do not hate, insult, or judge TM’s leadership. However, if we do not point out the fact that (whatever their intentions) they teach false doctrine and follow abusive practices, we do a disservice not only to God but to people who follow TM’s teachings.
Would you commit a sin if Dave Hasz told you to? If so (and there’s evidence of that at the link), that’s a sign of a cult. If not, shouldn’t you caution others when you see Hasz’s teaching is, in your words, “not perfect,” as this blog in fact does?
Anonymoussays:January 24, 2012 at 2:59 PMReply
wow i really have compassion on all of you!! i said nothing bout putting David Hasz and Ron Luce above God, but those who give their hearts to God and follow him and do what God has called them to do, they are called Childern of the Living God, Co-Heirs with Christ, and were called the Bride of Christ!!! they aren’t above God but because what Christ did for us on the cross we are now equal with Christ and also i can tell you that i just finished my intern year last August and that entire year, i never ever felt abused and always always after David Hasz or Ron Luce spoke they always said do not take my word for go and look it up in the bible yourself, they always used scripture, and also in cults your never allowed to leave the grounds, or leave the place!! but Teen Mania we got to leave whenever we wanted and you all think during the whole year we do that ESOAL stuff, but actually its all pretty chill after ESOAL and yeh we interns had our rough days but that is LIFE, but i bet you if you talk to anyone from my intern class (that includes the Januaries) we all would tell you all, that this past year was prob the most life-changing year we have ever experienced and it will forever be a huge stake in our lives, that we will never forget and most of those interns are now doing their second years and they are having more of an incredible year, then last year!! oh and to be honest David Hasz and Ron Luce and the whole TM staff they rlly don’t say or do anything besides in the classrooms or sessions, i mean they encouraged us and gave us tips, but rlly it was mostly just God,the interns, the GI’s (second, third or fourth years)that made the whole year happen!! actually thats who basically runs that whole ministry!!! and there was no manipulating, no nothing, i mean corporate and ESOAL and maybe fasting were the only tough things, but they weren’t that bad and we interns got an awesome lesson out of each of them, and especially ESOAL that taught my class that yeh life is goin to get hard and there will be people and evil spirits in your life that will try to talk you into giving up and ringin that bell, but with the strength of God and the encouragement of other brothers and sisters in the Lord helping us we can do anything!!! God was the real teacher of that entire year, God just used David Hasz and Ron Luce to be he’s vessels and his mouthpieces!! and the reason why we TM doesn’t care what the world thinks or tells them, cuz we are too busy listening to the voice of the Living God the real Director and Founding Father of Teen Mania!! if you guys wanna keep believe in lies and not listen to the truth thats not my problem!!! this problem is only between you and God and he is the real judge not me!!! but what i have told is the truth!! i pray that God will break your hearts and open your eyes, to what is the truth and what is wrong and what breaks his heart!!
ishouldcarelesssays:January 24, 2012 at 5:45 PMReply
Why does compassion sound a lot like condescension?
Anonymoussays:January 24, 2012 at 9:29 PMReply
its is that sad when the truth is right there that some people are so concerned bout other people’s sin and not their own!! and people at Teen Mania we aren’t perfect but we bring hope to kids who might have been on their last rope and were so close to giving up on life and then we bring them life and we help bring the dead back to life and re-awaken this sleeping generation!! yeh that doesn’t sound like abuse to me, that sounds like a group of people who just wanna serve and make living on this Earth worth something and that brings our God the glory!! when i went on SWAT team for the ATF in Seattle and this is when i first got to see what my job as the mail girl does for this ministry!!!! and i got to be right up front the entire time, cuz i was holding the cord to one of the carry cameras and i remember it was saturday night, the last night and it was time to for the alter call and to see thousands and thousands of teenagers, coming up and giving their lives to God and then when i wasn’t busy with the camera cord, i was on the floor praying for a couple girls and there was another intern down there as well and she was next to me praying over someone and when were both done we stayed on the ground and we just hugged each other and we too started crying, cuz the moment was so amazing!!! its like i didn’t know any of these kids that were coming up or at that entire event, but at that moment we just felt like we were all on the same page and that we were all the same!! and also to know that i got these kids here, i helped this girl or guy who i have never met before come to know Christ and now they are my new brother or sister in the Lord!!! that saturday night was prob the most powerful moment out of my entire intern year!! and i still saw no abuse or manipulating goin on at all!!
Recovering Alumnisays:January 24, 2012 at 9:31 PMReply
Anonymous – You really don’t need to try to sell us on your experience. We’ve ALL been there. I cried at ATFs and Honor Ring banquets and core meetings, etc. I prayed for healing on mission trips, I drank ALL the koolaid and I never thought I was being abused either…so please, realize that we were once JUST LIKE YOU.
SilverRaynesays:February 13, 2012 at 9:19 PMReply
Reading these posts freaked the heck out of me. Then just to see that those blogs tend to have a positive view of what happened in the end… Wow. That’s pretty much all I can think right now. My mind is boggled.
Anonymoussays:February 16, 2012 at 10:52 PMReply
The crazy thing to me (someone who had never been affiliated with TMM at all), is that first:
it’s obvious that ESOAL is insane and abusive (don’t bother arguing if you disagree I’m not here for debate)
and second:
a dear friend of mine, who (5 years after the HA) is still struggling to move past the spiritual and emotional abuse, says ESOAL was bad but definitely wasn’t the close to the worst of it. He says the daily condemnation and brainwashing far surpassed the negative effects of ESOAL.
this is all so heart breaking. I hope everyone finds peace and a knowledge of the real gospel of Jesus after TMM experiences
Anonymoussays:August 25, 2012 at 3:00 AMReply
HOW/WHERE CAN I SIGN UP??? PLEASE SOMEONE TELL ME!!!!
PLEASE MESSAGE ME AT ETHANWADEMASTERS@AOL.COM THANKS!!! I DONT CARE IF YOU DONT LIKE IT I WANT TO TRY IT I KNOOW IT WILL BE HARD BUT JUST TELL ME IF YOU KNOW!!
Kimberly Clarkesays:August 31, 2012 at 10:07 PMReply
My husband served in the U.S. Navy for over 8 years. I explained to him about my experiences with ESOAL and he told me that those were brainwashing techniques. The military uses those tactics to prepare soldiers for war but many of them face post traumatic stress syndrome from the various trainings and experiences that no amount of debriefing can cure alone. Many of them have to have extensive counseling and some even receive checks for mental illnesses. That’s just a scary thought and that’s what they pattern their challenges off of. I remember Dave even telling us girls that we should make our husbands go through ESOAL before we marry them to see if they’re worthy. That’s sick.
Anonymoussays:May 1, 2013 at 5:17 PMReply
they changed it. I pray that they changed it for good. http://www.honoracademy.com/2011/09/the-differences-between-esoal-and-the-pearl/
They claim that some leaders were getting carried away, but it’s still to far to begin with.
Anonymoussays:December 28, 2015 at 12:49 PMReply
Why does no one seem to mention that ESOAL was a voluntary activity and and that even those who volunteered could quit at any time whenever they wished?
Many people who never joined the military probably thought as I did when they would hear about the challenging tests of personal perseverance. I thought “I would like to try that someday if I could do it without joining the military.?”
I had many long conversations with Dave H. about the goals and purpose of ESOAL. I am very grateful for the opportunity to have participated.
Few people who didn’t join the military ever get a chance to test their perseverance like that. “ESOAL was exactly what the name implied an opportunity of a lifetime to stretch myself. The activities were intentionally selected to be unpleasant, annoying, even frustrating, but never impossible.
I am grateful for the opportunity I had to learn how my emotions are quick to tell me something is impossible when the fact is that it is just unpleasant.
I am grateful for the opportunity I had to learn that if those who are around me are not encouraging me. Or even if they are discouraging me. I can continue in spite of them. I can go inside myself to find self motivation.
I love that I was given this opportunity to make a commitment to myself to complete ESOAL, and then as advertised I was challenged sufficiently to consider quitting. I learned a lot and I am extremely grateful for the event.
Shannon Kishsays:December 29, 2015 at 10:49 AMReply
You realize this post is over 2 years old and the ministry/cult has declared bankruptcy since…. So this is moot, right?