In this video, David Hasz tells the interns that in order to be a leader, you have to pass a test called the “integrity check.” One of these tests is making restitution. If you have stolen something, you must make restitution with the owner. That sounds like a good idea to me. But then he goes off the rails by suggesting that if you have ever cheated in school, you must make restitution by confessing this sin to your former teachers. If you don’t, you run the risk of God taking His Spirit away from you.
45:45 – I’ll test your restitution on another front. Close your eyes. Raise your hand if you ever cheated on a test, paper or assignment in high school. Ok. Put your hands down and open your eyes. I would challenge you to make restitution for your cheating. Here is how you make restitution you send an email or write a letter to your teacher for whatever class you cheated in. Say, “Sophomore English class I cheated on the paper you assigned 2nd semester, I copied a friends, I should not have done that. I now recognize that what I did was wrong. I’d ask you to forgive me.” How many of you would be very afraid to make restitution at that level? How many of you would have a lot of emails you’d need to write? Why would you be afraid to make restitution at that level? (various intern questions and answers)
Picking it back up at 48:03
Here is your homework assignment for the week. If you cheated in high school, I want you to make a list of the times you cheated. You might say I can’t remember all the times I cheated, well then just make a list of the ones you can remember. And I would strongly encourage you – if it’s like you cheated in every class at every level for the entire time you were in school, you might just need to write a letter to the principal or send an email to the school board. If it was a specific class, you remember a specific time you cheated……send the email and make it right and in two or three weeks I want to hear some testimonies about what’s happened as a result of you making it right.
49:20 – This check has just stepped into your life in phase two to see whether or not your influence and your sphere of influence and your ability as a leader is going to continue to grow. Its called restitution. Some people fail these tests, some people fail these integrity checks. You want me to give you some examples of people who failed them? How many of you don’t want to hear some examples of people who failed them because you are planning on failing one here shortly? How many of you are sitting there now thinking, “I am not making restitution.” Tell the truth, how many of you have that thought going through your mind? Well, let me tell you what happens to people who fail these checks. Are you ready? Saul is one of the people who failed these checks. Saul had an integrity check it was foundational to effective leadership, it’s instilled early in character. Saul failed the integrity check and what happened to Saul? God took his Spirit away from Saul, God took the influence Saul had away from him, and Saul ends up killing himself in battle. I’m not saying that if you fail this check you’ll end up committing suicide but I can tell you that if you fail the checks God puts in your life it’s going to limit and inhibit your future influence. It’s not worth it. Pass the check. Pass the test.
There are 2 MAJOR issues with this teaching. The first is the GROSS distortion of the Gospel. How could Dave Hasz ever suggest that God would take His spirit away from a believer? (What about “I will never leave you or forsake you?) If our relationship with God depends on our works, we are all doomed. This kind of teaching is exactly why Paul wrote the book of Galatians. I won’t go in depth into this, because I think its apparent from the video how distorted and perverted his teachings are. Feel free to ask for clarification in the comments.
The second issue is that of restitution. Dave seems to be making up his own definitions of restitution here and thrusting it on the interns. According to the dictionary, restitution is:
1.reparation made by giving an equivalent or compensation for loss, damage, or injury caused; indemnification.
2. the restoration of property or rights previously taken away, conveyed, or surrendered.
3. restoration to the former or original state or position.
If you have cheated on a test, what you have stolen from your teachers?
Nothing! The only person you stolen from is yourself. Did the teacher experience any loss, damage or injury? No.
This bizarre teaching makes no sense to me. Cheating is a sin, of course. But it does not fall within the category of needing restitution. If a person feels convicted by the Holy Spirit to confess, then great. But requiring “restitution” by making the interns feel extremely guilty if they don’t confess to year old sins to people who probably don’t even care? This really makes no sense to me.
And worse than being non-sensical, it puts the interns in deep guilt and shame.
Where is the Gospel in this??
62 comments:
This actually bring a lot of great freedom. I did this as an intern and the response I got from my teachers was incredible. It opened up doors for them to ask why I was doing it and I was able to share the love of Christ with them. It sounds to me in your writing’s that you experience guilt everywhere you look.
As far as bizarre teachings, my pastor did a similar one back home.
From what I read, (correct me if I’m wrong RA) I don’t think RA has a problem with integrity or restitution at all. It’s with Dave Hasz using guilt and spiritual manipulation to get people to do it. Telling people that if they don’t do something God is going to take the Holy Spirit away from them is ridiculous. In persuasion, it’s a commonly used tactic called a fear appeal and it’s very motivating to get people to do what you want. All that aside, I wonder if people are really doing this because God is convicting them to or just because Dave Hasz/TM is telling them to?
RA —
I could see him teaching several things in the quote you cite here: is he suggesting that people who don’t confess etc. become useless? Or that they lose their salvation?
Haha, I wonder if that’s from my year? I totally remember this talk haha.
It was funny; I racked my brain for about five minutes after this class and remembered that I cheated on a test in like eighth grade. I had no way of contacting the teacher, so I was scared that I’d end up dying and having the Gatekeeper of Heaven boot me out because my unrepented sin blotted out the blood of Jesus.
In fact, I think this is where my works-mentality started… oh, my. Haha. I wish I would’nt have blindly accepted everything they taught… yeah, you need to be a critical thinker and discern for yourself, but that’s an excuse for a ministry to brazenly molest the Gospel? Really??
I guess the world needed more “haha”s and typos with that last comment. Apologies, boys and girls.
1st Anonymous – Great for you. As I said in the post, if the Lord is leading you to do that great. But its hardly a requirement. You are right I experienced guilt everywhere in the internship…gee, what a shocker. Not sure what other response is appropriate when your spiritual leader tells you that failing an “integrity check” means God could take His Spirit from you.
2nd Anonymous – I’m sorry that TM has stripped you of your reading comprehension.
Alum2000 – exactly right. I also question whether the concept of “restitution” even applies to cheating.
MDSF – Yes and no. He frequently talks out of both sides of his mouth, so while he would answer a firm ‘no’ to both of your questions, I think that this video says otherwise. And this is a pretty representative of the kind of “Gospel” that is emphasized there.
Anon 1- Just what RA said. This post is not saying you SHOULDN’T do the above getting in touch, they touch on the fact that is it not RESTITUTION by doing so.
Anon 2- A retarded comment does not deserve an intelligent reply. Please actually read the post for what it’s saying, not what you’d like to be butthurt about.
It kills me that the Bible would be so dramatically misconstrued at TM. We seriously need to be praying up that ministry like no other; if they spent half as much energy teaching how to use the power that the Holy Spirit grants vs wearing pretty dresses and guilting into doing the right thing, they’d be so much better off.
“Molest the gospel” ~ great terminology there. Mind if I borrow it sometime?
Dear Moderator,
Thanks for keeping the ignorant and arrogant posts up every now and then. They are one of the most influential parts of this blog to me. I can see much of my old “model intern self” in them. They help me get back into my old mindset and reinforce the fact that I did fully buy into a skewed version of reality and Christianity.
I often think that I over-exaggerate my experiences at the HA or that my issues in life are a result of some other experiences. When I read these posts though, I become more convinced of how ludicrous many of my HA mindsets really were.
Much love.
I’m a teacher. . . and I wouldn’t know what to do with Hasz’s restitution challenge. It would actually be kind of annoying to get an email from a former student saying they cheated. Like, I didn’t care then, don’t care now. . . and you want some kind of response from me?! Am I supposed to do something with that?
You’re right, RA. A cheating student never stole, damaged or injured a teacher and doesn’t owe that teacher anything.
I think I would be most annoyed that a former student HAD my email address. I like to keep my personal information private.
Let the interns confess to God. I don’t want to hear it.
Teacher – Thanks for sharing from your perspective. I have several teachers in my family and many teacher friends – and I think most, if not all of them, would concur.
Wow. This is good to read. Thank you R.A. I remember this teaching and I guess I never actually second guessed it!
“Thank you Jesus for raising up R.A. to do this ground work!”
Seriously. I totally lived out that teaching, guilting myself for stuff that wasn’t nesassary. and I must confess my first reaction often to your stuff is, “how could R.A. say that?!?!!?!?” And then I really think on it and usually you’re right. and if I dont come to the conclution you’re right I at least am so thankful for another oppinion.
Bless you R.A!!!!
There is another point that completely rubs me the wrong way when Dave says (during the interns comments). “I think you should get what you deserve…” meaning the grade change or angry parents, graduations status changed…
What astounds me on that statement is ISN’T THIS WHY CHRIST DIED ON A CROSS??? so that we DON’T GET what we deserve?!?! Every time I hear that statement it angers me!
I’m not saying that b/c were Christians we never have consequences, but to say that we deserve what we get- that goes against the foundation of Christianity- everyone is welcome to become part of Christ family- no matter WHAT they deserve… I mean lets look at Paul- did he ‘deserve’ his role? not in HA standards!
Give me a break- why is it that inters are expected to answer to Dave/Ron/whomever- it’s God we answer too- this is so obnoxious!!!
Oh, but j97, it’s an UNTIMELY CONFESSION*! The mercy coupon is good for a limited time only.
* Teen Mania standard; the longer you wait to confess, the higher the likelihood that you’ll get dismissed, regardless of the significance of the sin.
“i’m convinced of this: domineering people who create a fear-based culture are in gross sin. furthermore, their people don’t live the kinds of free, joyous, humble lives that God intends for them. they’re more worried about their leaders than Jesus, they’re more worried about getting in trouble than they are being fruitful, and it’s really unfortunate.” – mark driscoll, “trial: humble pastors”
when i was at TM, i can honestly say that most of the time i did what was “expected” not out of fear of the Lord, but out of fear of leadership–which only made me feel more guilty and shameful, because i couldn’t differentiate between the heart of Christ and the heart of Hasz/Luce/etc. i maintain that i still believe Dave and Ron to be god-fearing men…but somewhere down the line i stopped looking at their humanity–and that’s a slippery slope to tread on.
h – The crazy thing is that they create the culture in which you fear them (via their shaming tactics and other consequences) – they even put themselves on God’s level by saying if you rebel against them you are rebelling against God and in ‘wicked sin.’ Then when you get them mixed up with God, they blame you for it!
RA – Umm slightly wrong with your “wicked sin” comment.
MY intern year we were told by Mr Hasz, and I quote “Anyone found to be breaking the rules, no matter how small it may be, is in rebellion which the Word says “rebellion is the sin of witchcraft” – so therefore if you catch someone breaking the rules, point at them and shout “WITCH!” ”
For context of this, Dave was initially referring to people wearing shower shoes.
Speaking of Teenmania’s false doctrine and Mark Driscol— Anyone heard Mark’s teaching on Alcohol? (http://www.fundamentalforums.com/the-fighting-forum/38799-excellent-sermon-on-alcohol-by-mark-driscoll.html)<- Sorry about the random web page. It was the only one I could find with a link.
lol.
Just a side note – What-ever your veiw on drinking is I don’t care. But I’m sure we all remember the famous Paper we had to write on whether we would drink or not after we left the H.A. and why…
Natalie, I never wrote an alcoholic paper. Was it acceptable to state in the paper that yes you would drink alcohol after the internship if you backed up your points well (Jesus drank wine, etc. . .)? Or was there only one correct premise for the alcoholic paper?
I remember this talk as well. I racked my brain, and for the life of me I couldn’t remember a single instance. I even felt bad that I couldn’t remember a time! What could this teaching even accomplish? What good does it do to force guilt upon yourself? What good does bringing up and reliving our mistakes do? Maybe the elation you experience from your new “freedom” makes it all worth it…
i like that we’re bringing driscoll into this. he’s basically everything dave hasz could be if he had the gospel. i highly recommend him.
mark driscoll is one of my FAVORITES.
i’ve been working my way through his “trial” series via iTunes, and i highly recommend him [and those sermons] as well. this series in specific has been instrumental in my continual healing process post-TM…lots of good stuff that is highly validating and super-biblical.
i totally remember the alcohol paper [weren’t there a couple other topics that went along with it?] and i basically said i hadn’t made up my mind yet–mostly because i was afraid of putting what i really thought. good grief.
ex-intern 07–Dave was saying that a few years prior to you as well–05-06, for sure. i don’t know that it was in reference to shower shoes, but i totally remember that being said–my roommates and i used to joke around about being witches [whenever we did anything confrontation-worthy], but that verse got thrown around A LOT whenever someone was being confronted, by ANYONE on campus. this is one of those moments where i look back and wonder–“how did i not see all of these red flags then? how did i not realize how outrageous so much of this was[is]?”
To Z- You never had to write a paper?! Well, It was a BIG deal my year. In world view Mr. Hasz made this big deal about drinking. He went off about it for half a class period. I tried to find the teaching online, I couldn’t find it anywhere. I’m sure it’s somewhere.
But basically, he straight up told us not to drink and that it was a dumb choice. He told us Jesus said He wasn’t going to drink until the marriage supper and that he was going to wait till then too.
Which ticks me off so bad now…
If you listen to Driscoll teaching on alcohol almost all the excuses he uses on why people say they shouldn’t drink Mr. Hasz used. Only when Mr. Hasz says it, he’s so overbearing and pressuring, he really told us that we shouldn’t drink. He didn’t give the side for it being ok to drink at all. So naturally, most of us figured drinking was wrong too.
The drinking topic is yet another example of their legalism. If the Bible does not say “Drinking alcohol is a sin” then what gives Dave the authority to say that it is?
Going beyond Biblical requirements in some misguided attempt to be “extra-Christian” is missing the point entirely.
Thanks, Natalie. No, I never had to write a drinking paper because I never went to the HA. I just went to tons of ATF’s, a mission trip and and read all of Ron’s devotionals. Even though I never made it to the HA, I was totally immersed in TM mentality during my teen years. So even though I didn’t attend the HA, I relate to this blog 100% and am intrigued by all the interesting HA tid bits I discover through the posts and comments.
Where did the video go?
That seems cowardly.
Are they afraid of what is coming to light. Finally? After 12 long years?
Last anon, I think it’s been a lot longer than that. 20+ years, though Hasz has been guy-in-command for almost 15, I believe.
I went on a trip with them in ’88 and I think it was either their second or third summer running trips. Hasz wasn’t around when I was active in TM.
There is no shortage of places to host video on the web. They keep taking it down, I’ll keep putting it back on. Bring it.
RA,
I have respectfully emailed you and asked you to remove these video’s from your site as the classes you are showing are college accredited classes. You have yet to respond to any of those emails. You are welcome to put any of our Chapel or Freedom Services on your site as those are not college accredited. Could you please remove these video’s?
Heath Stoner
RA,
I want to respectfully ask that you please keep the videos coming. They are amazing testimony to the ridiculous teen mania rhetoric and it is hard to believe they are considered college credit.
Thanks,
A former intern, who wishes to remain anonymous.
Heath? With all due respect, can you please share with the class why they were put online in the first place, if that’s the case?
It is common knowledge that once you post something on the Internet, there’s no turning back.
Mr. Stoner! 🙂
But really, Are you saying that it’s ok to use any classes if they aren’t accredited?
…
Even if I did remove this, it would no doubt turn up elsewhere…I’m sure several other people downloaded them. You can’t unring a bell.
Mr. Stoner what do you think about all this? I’m SO curious! 🙂
Honestly. Do you think the stuff on this blog is wrong? It seems kinda like ya’ll have some stuff you gotta answer up to…
Dear Mr. Stoner
With all due respect, what are you ashamed of? If you fully support and agree with what Mr. Hasz is teaching (read: distorting) about the gospel, you should be happy to see videos being spread around like this.
Sounds like someone is doing some covering up for the HA. Ah well, just more proof of the false doctrine being spread around.
You have our support RA. You are being perfectly respectable in how you are shedding light on the situation going on in HA. We need to continue lifting up the ministry with prayer, or else the 3 mil deficit will continue to grow, and it WILL crumble. Which will be a shame, considering what they originally set out to do; an honorable goal! But where it is now is in such a sick place, it breaks my heart.
Maybe I’m off base here, but. . .college accredited? Using the phrase “college accreditation” implies that TM is an accredited institution, which it’s not, right? By any educational organization/institution?
If you simply mean that interns receive college credit for the classes, I don’t see how that means that the videos should be protected/taken down. Is this idea somehow to protect TM from students getting to take the class for free, because they can watch the videos online? That doesn’t seem realistic to me.
I’m trying to figure out if there is any reason a video from a college credit-receiving class shouldn’t be posted online, and I can’t think of any. I don’t know the laws, though, so maybe there’s something I’m unaware of. Then again, if there WAS legal backup for this claim, I would imagine TM would have threatened to use it already.
Okay, I did a little more research and found that the HA was recently accredited through a connection with Sterling College as of August 2008, so I suppose that makes my first point moot.
I still think the second part of my comment is valid, though.
As a college instructor, it is my understanding that accreditation has more to do with the overall quality of the education taking place (is the course meeting certain academic standards?) and little, if anything, to do with releasing of information to the public domain. For more on accreditation see http://www.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/index.html
Most professors are responsible for developing their courses with the approval of their departments, some copyright their material, some don’t. It seems like the problem here would be with whoever recorded the information in the first place and made it available – not with RA and this blog. Personally, if I didn’t want my course to be posted online, I would make sure that there was no way it would be recorded by the students or anyone else in the first place. However, if for some reason it was recorded and ended up online, I would spend my time trying to find out who recorded it in the first place and creating a “do not record” policy for my class, not with the blogs or other Internet sites that posted my material.
Many colleges offer online classes via video instruction. I can’t see how the classes being accredited makes any difference as to whether or not they are posted. Its not like people are getting free college credits from watching this video. It is simply a reference for a stimulating discussion. The defensiveness of Teen Mania is a detriment to them. The more Teen Mania tries to take the videos away, the more it looks like they have something to hide.
Furthermore! There is a list of colleges and universities that offer free courses online, simply for the sake of learning! The following quote is from the website where you can find this treasure!
“In recent years, many universities and colleges have decided to make course materials, including lectures, tests, notes and readings, available for free on the Internet. These schools, which include world-class institutions like MIT and UC-Berkeley, are hoping that people around the world will take advantage of the incredible opportunity for learning.”
Talk about a great vision! If Teen Mania really wanted to offer their spiritual support and advice to thousands of people, I imagine they would also set up a program like this so that more people would be reached. I imagine they would make all their classes accessible, if they really thought they were preaching the gospel truth. However, as extensively discussed on this site, their gospel truth is riddled and rotted with manipulation and hype. So it is no wonder they are trying to re-call these videos as soon as possible.
I also want to mention that many of the classes posted by these universities are “accredited” classes and are being filmed live in a classroom full of people getting college credit for them. That doesn’t mean they are withholding them from the rest of the world simply because they are accredited. On the contrary, they are interested in sharing them with as many people as possible as to stimulate learning and education! That is SO fantastic. I encourage anyone reading this to take advantage of this incredible learning opportunity. The sooner you can heal from Teen Mania, the more there is out there for you to taste and smell and hear and think about. The resources are bountiful and they reward for learning is an enriched focussed mind that is capable of interacting with many people from all walks of life. It is truly a wonder to experience this after seeing everything through the Teen Mania filter.
You can click on my pseudonym to go to this website, or type in the following website:
http://education-portal.com/articles/Colleges_and_Universities_that_Offer_Free_Courses_Online.html
I’m so glad I read all this. In the OTHER video, where Mr. Hasz stated that there are blogs out there that call him a heretic and people who say that are just using it as an excuse to not live lives of integrity. He sounded like he brushed off those kinds of insults because they aren’t true.
I don’t get what the big deal is if that’s really what he thinks. If he is right he should be considering this pure joy.
And to Mr. Stoner, What do you think?
Unfortunately, what I think this is, is just one more example of TM attempting to take advantage of youth; assuming that people are too naive to question beyond their official-sounding response.
They don’t treat interns/alumni like adults and provide a legitimate explanation, and just half-bake some sort of pseudo-intellectual retort that doesn’t sound questionable.
Fortunately, most of us reading this blog have conquered Teen Mania Brainwashing™, so we see right through it.
Please, leadership of the ministry, hear us out: we just want the truth.
Why are you fighting this?
Perhaps Mr. Stoner is afraid that once the colleges see the actual content of these classes, they’ll pull the accreditation….
Aww, nuts. I think all this logic scared them away 🙁
Its amazing that Heath is upset when I don’t answer him, and yet….look at all these unanswered questions…
Are you trying to suggest that there are double standards at Teen Mania? RA, how could you even imply such a thing?
Dear Dave Hasz and Ron Luce,
You stole a year of my life. You said the internship was one thing, and it turned out to be something else entirely. This is called “bait and switch”. You also damaged my body irrepairably, and broke the laws of loving people, which are set up clearly in the Bible. you do not keep your own word, you lie, you hurt, and you steal money from hurting kids who are trying to make a positive change in their lives. if they are unable to meet your standards, and go home, you keep their money. and the money of thousands of supporters.
WITCH!
SO, in restitution I would like the following:
One year of my life back, or one year of paid counseling. Whichever costs YOU more, is great.
All of the supporters that YOU stole from should have their money returned, even if you have already spent it, and even if it takes you a loooong time to do it.
Paid hospital bills for the damage you inflicted on my body that it cannot recover from.
Shutting down the ministry entirely until you can learn to love.
Teen Mania, you are ridiculous.
Great point. According to their own teachings, TM owes quite a bit of restitution to many people. Money is only the start…
There is a way to actually get restitution. Its called a lawsuit…
Where could one find videos from the Chapel Services and Freedom Services?
I think they are on ustream.com but last I looked they were having technical difficulties…but I believe there are some archived.
Oh my God…
When I read this post, I realized something I have never realized before…that I internalized this message, and to this day have believed it no matter how many times my current (and Biblically sound, thank God) church has told me how grace really works. I am currently going through a recovery ministry to work through abuses and mindsets made in my past about myself and God (not related to HA), mostly because I haven’t been able to hear God for more than a year. Because of experiences I had before the HA, this message led me to believe God was a manipulative, oppressive omnipotence who would give me the “silent treatment” or revoke my salvation card until I figured out what He wanted on my own. I can’t believe I embraced this so wholeheartedly for so many years…tears are streaming down my face right now. I have felt so unloved for so long. Thank you, RA, for posting this…I had completely forgotten about this message, and when it was given never once questioned the validity.
Anon – What a beautiful moment. Thank you for sharing that with us. THAT is the reason I write this blog.
Recovering Alumni, Should you run out of websites willing to host these videos for you, let me know, and we will work on building a system hosting our own videos you can link to.
Regarding this teaching about restitution: it sounds like they are calling this humility & repentance …but it’s actually more like humiliation. Jesus never humiliates.
Again this post is a stretch to complain for the sake of complaining. He’s basically saying a leader needs to hold themselves to a higher standard, which is true. Not a cultural or world standard but GODS standard.
It may seem a little weird but Jesus was weird and as long as you try to understand these teachings through the eyes of an angry bias man it will always seem strange. Remember that God does not think like you or me, he thinks like a King. And because of this holds us to very high standards, perhaps in reality even higher then the ones suggested in this presentation.
Actually, Anon, Jesus didn’t at all hold himself to the “higher” standard in the way you’re talking about. He broke the Sabbath. He hung out with prostitutes. That is not what is being taught by Dave Hasz.
@Bobbi– I don’t think wanderer was saying those were bad things.
Thank you, Eric. I was trying to understand how my comment was Pharisaical.
You’re right, I like Jesus’ style, those definitely aren’t bad things!
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