Honor Academy: Ways a Teen Mania Woman Acts on Campus

this wasn’t my year, but just reading this made that old, familiar tightness in my chest spring up–and even though i know how ludicrous most of it is, i still found that i was comparing myself to the checklist and finding myself impossibly lacking, and it’s so hugely depressing.

part of the issue is not only that we were made to feel as though we didn’t measure up, but that the vision of who we wanted to be became altered as well. i think many of us earnestly wanted to be the woman listed here–without even really knowing or understanding why, especially if some of these things conflicted with the personality we had previously. but we tried–inevitably failed–and the consequences have been painful ever since.

This checklist is the stupidest thing I’ve ever read in my life. Okay, that’s clearly an exaggeration, I’ve read some of Heath Stoner’s stuff. But seriously? SERIOUSLY?!

I’d be interested to hear what this Peggy Preggers-inthe-Kitchen lady would have to say about Deborah the prophet. Speak into my waredrobe? Be a tool of the whims of my peers? God will change His will to fit the ideals of a crazy institution?

This is a disgusting gospel of conformity and abuse, not that it’s anything new to TM/HA, but still. God hasn’t built all women this way, actually, He rarely builds them this way at all. It’s like Teen Mania is saying “Haha! God may have made you a certain way, but only so you can fight and fight against it to be the way He’d rather you be.”

That is not a loving god, people. So I have to wonder what god Teen Mania is serving. Because it’s not the One that rose from the dead three days later!

“Hellooo? Mr. Tumnus? Are you in there?”
“What are you doing?”
“Speaking into your wardrobe.”

I suppose a reasonable alternative might be this.

Meanwhile, I dare anybody to show me one verse of Scripture that even comes close to making any one of these assertions. Gives a new layer of meaning to “teaching as rules the commandments of men.” There’s a word for what this is: I’m not going to say it but it rhymes with “Beagleism.”

(The other word for it rhymes with “Schmexism,” but that’s too obvious to require comment.)

At least, at the VERY VERY LEAST, this one was written by a woman.

Other than that it’s incredibly laughable. I’m quite feminine, and I hardly measure up to any of these. Good heavens!

This was passed out my year, during our very first focus group. Our intern advisor went over the list in detail, expounding upon each point. She was beautiful and petite and stylish, very put together, and seemed to emphasize the parts of the checklist that had to do with the clothing we wear. It went along with Dave Hasz’s insistence that women should wear make-up and look a certain way. There was no room for personal style (the emo girls definitely weren’t “Teen Mania Women” by definition, nor were the poor kids like me–I prefer to refer to my style at the time as “free-table chic”, ha!)

By the time we got this “guideline”, I was a bit tired of getting yet another piece of paper with another list of rules. I must have made a comment about it–trying to be funny–and it got me pegged from the very beginning as someone with a “bad attitude”. This was the first thing my IA offered when we met for the first time, and I was crest-fallen. I had been shy and excited to meet with her, and before she had even taken the time to get to know me she had taken one incident, completely void of any context, since I was otherwise a blank slate, and labeled me.

The last time I met with her, to get a recommendation to go down Josiah’s Road, she told me I hadn’t grown as much as she’d hoped I would that year. Her reasoning? I hadn’t taken to heart what it meant to be a “Teen Mania Woman”. I didn’t dress right. Her specific complaint? Wait for it….my shoes. I wore Chuck Taylors (back before they were popular in mainstream fashion), and she thought they were boy shoes. I needed to start wearing girl shoes.

Sweet googly moogly cripes Gray, that’s the biggest load of bull I’ve ever heard in my life!

I have it. Right now. This epiphany from the Lord.

“Thou shalt wear the proper shoes to follow Me. Pick up your desinger label clothing and follow every day. The cross is out of fashion. But laik, oh my Dad, is that a T-SHIRT you’re wearing guuurrrrrl? You can’t get into Heaven wearin those rags.” And now it’s turned into reality TV.

You were told a big load of bull, Gray, I’m sure you realize that, but what you were told is straight up against what is in the Bible.

So, how many women are living up to this standard? Littlegraygirl, what year were you? I was in 01 and I remember getting this as well.

Crazy.

The sad part is that during my time at TM, I would have completely agreed with ALL of this BS.

This makes me so angry! Is there a similar list for “teen mania men?”

This is ridiculous.

I want to say something clever, but all I can think of this video that an internet friend just shared with me when I pointed this list out to them: Women, Know Your Limits! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

the thing that gets me here is that this list has a smattering of obscure and questionable aspects of christian faith, mixed in with a whole lotta TM bulls***.

i really liked BB. she was a source of strength and encouragement for me when i didn’t have it anywhere else. i wonder if she still has the same thoughts now as she did 9 years ago.

and really, i want to get righteously indignant here, but i just can’t. it makes me too sad.

This is another great example of Poe’s Law, which posits that parodies of religious fundamentalism and the like are indistinguishable from the real thing.

Many who don’t know Brenda is a real person would take this as some kind of parody of Teen Mania campus life, similar to how, conversely, this parody is often believed to be real.

@Z – In all honesty, I can’t remember if the dress code for us men was that strict, speaking that we could run around shirtless, wear shorts, and wear other things, like walk around the dorms in just underwear (preferrably boxer shorts). There is definitely a double standard between the men and women when it comes to campus life, and the dress codes.

@Mike – I’m curious to know if she’s teaching all this BS to the military, college, and other women that she now speaks with. I couldn’t find anything (nor have extreme amount of time to look for it) on her site as to her curriculum.

Despises Flirting.

Well singleness is a vocation too Brenda, you just might be in the wrong religion.

Thanks for the video Liz BR, I loved it.

Anon: while the comments about despising flirting were terribly over the top and clearly ridiculous, it IS possible to end up with a partner without being a flirt. 😉

Haha, if I recall correctly, flirting (when done RIGHT) can be a good thing, because it helps the guy realize that you’re interested, too.

Because really, all it is (or at least should be) is playful banter and behavior that helps both of you acknowledge the elephant in the room, and makes the transition from friendship to more-than-friends a little less anxiety-ridden (cause you BOTH have a clue!).

I read that in a Christian book, too!

Whoops, D ninja’d me!

I do agree with your post, D, in that flirting definitely ISN’T a requirement. But it has gotten a bad rep, and isn’t really bad once you get down to it.

Granted I don’t know what this demonized “bad” flirting looks like cause I’m pretty naive, so everything I know about dating is pretty much by the book.

Agreed with Nunquam, here. Flirting doesn’t mean you’re putting your girls on display and dry humping the dude.

It’s subtle, it’s fun, and there’s nothing wrong with it.

This list was like watching an episode of Family Guy to me. SO funny.

Nope, not a thing wrong with flirting… just pointing out that a lack of it doesn’t necessarily doom one to a life of loneliness as anon implied. heh

i’m pretty sure i’m not going to diminish who i am in any way so a man can shine. it is not my job to please anyone, only to be lovingly honest. and being less than i am, and whoever God is forming me to be, just for the purpose of making a man feel better about himself is offensive to both parties. it is the exact opposite of Love.

also, friendly flirting is OKAY. show me in the bible where it says it’s wrong…? and the whole “flirting is witchcraft” belief is just plain crazy. i’m glad she drew the line before saying that nonsense.

This post makes me want to go crazy.

Just for the record, yes, please put this on my record.

In writing:

I like to flirt.
I like sex with men. I like sex by myself too. I like the endless possibilities I have as a woman to meet new lovers that enrich my life with laughter, love, sex, knowledge and sharing.

I like working hard, opening doors for myself and carrying heavy things.
Thats the only way I got my garden planted.
That is also the only way I set up my musical equipment for a show.

I love having intellectual passionate and sometimes heated discussions with men and women.
I like wearing clothes and shoes that are comfortable and job appropriate. S0metimes boots, sometimes heels.
I also like wearing clothes that are sexy and show my cleavage.
I like turning men on.
I like turning women on.

I like the emotions I have. They are extreme and I have come to appreciate every single one of them for how they help me to grow.
I believe in expressing my emotions through music and art, and sometimes through fits of crying, screaming, and laughter.

Clearly, I am not a model Teen Mania woman.

Which is perhaps what I like most of all.

Moriah

in defense of the flirting rule: i was a man on campus and know that if i had girls flirting with me at the honor academy, it would’ve really taken my focus off of the reason that i was there.
i think that the “no-flirting” rule while at teenmania is a good one.

In my opinion, most of these guidelines weren’t that ridiculous or atrocious. I think I’ll just respond on the ones RA addressed & give my thought processes or how I would have addressed those rules myself. These will be in brackets “>> [].” Also, I have to divide this into parts.. I maxed out the characters. XD

PART ONE
She has an intimate and contagious relationship with the Lord. (How do you make that contagious? Another abstract value you can’t possibly live up to.)
>> [Contagious, in my mind, would have meant to take those things I learned in intimacy & share those things with others rather than keep them to myself. Some revelations I got were because others spoke out about their own.]

— She is seldom the center of attraction (leaving that place for the men?)
>> [Probably a heart rule. As a somewhat sanguine person, I know that I draw attention sometimes, but it’s rarely my intent to draw attention to myself. I know there’s a time & a place for it. Also, if I’m trying to draw attention to myself so that people see me, wouldn’t that mean I’m trying to draw the attention of Man & getting satisfaction or affirmation from them?]

— She is a woman of few words. Her words are golden. (being talkative is wrong?)
>> [There are a few verses in Proverbs about those who are wise and those who are fools. I’ll go back & try to find them. Edit: Prov. 17:27-28 (ESV) – “27Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding. 28Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent.”]

— She despises flirting and does not resort to that level of communication to win favor or attention (despises? wow, that is kinda harsh!)
>> [What is the point of flirting? What does it gain? I think flirting is a matter of intent & while an intern at the HA, it’s a wise guideline. There’s an abundance of attractive, Godly men there. Lol. In a place where your focus is supposed to be God, the opposite gender can be a distraction – especially if lust was a stronghold in your life. I get along more easily with men & sometimes the things I do can come across as flirting even though it’s not. I know it, God knows it, & when communicated, so does the opposite gender and leadership. As long as there are boundaries & clarity, it’s fine & usually in the clear.]

–She doesn’t walk around the dorms naked or half dressed. (Yeah, its not like the dorms are your home people!)
>> [Thing is, it’s not our homes. I wouldn’t want to see another naked woman casually walking around the hall. If it was immediate family, I’d have more give on that, but these women are just people we’re with for a year. Some of them close friends, many of them acquaintances. I don’t need to see their birthday suits. As far as half-dressed goes, as long as the important parts are covered, I’m cool, but I’d imagine that any given girl -whether this was a rule or not- would say, “Put some clothes on.”]

PART TWO
–She doesn’t publicly make bodily function noises (farts, burps, any other exaggerated and inappropriate noises) which would single her out in a crowd (yes, burping is a character issue, Jesus said so)
>> [I know women who can belch it out. Honestly, it grosses me out. Tends to smell. I imagine tiny food particles flying out of their mouths. Lol. For me, it has the same effect as passing gas. I’d imagine this guideline is in place out of respect for other people.]

–She never attracts attention to herself by screaming, being emotional or any other acts of attention getting behavior (a woman having attention = bad?)
>> [Having attention isn’t necessarily bad, but attention-getting probably is. See my note on the second guideline.]

— She has an accountability partner and seeks out the wisdom of older wiser women (yeah, like at least 24 years old)
>> [There are also older staff members, grandmothers, who are there exclusively to be mentors.]

— She gravitates toward the woman she envies instead of creating a chasm of covetousness (huh?)
>> [I think the idea is that instead of letting envy stew, to talk about it. It can be easier to resolve things if you talk to the person directly.]

— She allows other women to speak into her wardrobe (speak into her wardrobe? lol)
>> [This totally makes sense to me. We never saw this list, but our core naturally did this. There were items of clothing in our wardrobes that would be sketch or on the borderline. We weren’t legalistic about it – just extremely honest. If one of us thought another needed to change because it might cause someone to stumble & someone else agreed, we wouldn’t wear it.]

— She understands that guys don’t want to hear about girls that have messed around with guys. (huh?)
>> [At the HA, guys don’t need to know any woman’s past sexual exploits. It’s unnecessary and probably will cause that guy to stumble. If something like that needs to come of your chest, it would be better to go to some form of leadership – someone who can walk with you as you heal. Another male intern walking a female intern through that healing process? Think about it. Prooobably not wise.]

— She realizes that guys pick up that she favors a certain man and that will make her reputation as someone who only treats handsome or popular men nicely. (huh?)
>> [Okay.. This one is strange. Lol.]

–She realizes that God will not speak to her about a guy here, but her emotions sure will. (really? lots of interns have married each other! God is not bound by your rules)
>> [Guuuideline! Pfft. Leadership wants interns to marry each other. Mr. Luce & Mr. Hasz openly say so. They’ve even set people up before. Lol. But the heart behind it is to focus on God. It’s so easy to get sidetracked by the opposite gender & seek them out. It’s also easy, for women especially, to be led by emotion.]

PART THREE
— She realizes that God knows the commitment she made to not date for a year. He would not reveal something to her that would make it difficult to keep that commitment. (reference: Hezekiah 4:18)
>> [Um.. That.. reference doesn’t exist. <_<;]

— She realizes that dating can happen in the mind and in other levels of emotions. She does not ignore confrontation or wisdom’s cries. (AKA we can confront you even if you aren’t actually doing anything wrong)
>> [How would they know you’re not doing anything wrong? They can’t see your heart unless you take it upon yourself to communicate. If I thought someone was in wrong, I’d confront her & I’d want others confront me. If there’s nothing wrong, you can say so & both move on. Confrontation shouldn’t be seen as something terrible. It’s iron sharpening iron so that you can grow. I also mentioned something along these lines for the earlier guideline about flirting.]

— She realizes that guys are here to seek the Lord and when she starts seeking a guy, then she has just become a messenger of Satan or a thorn in his flesh. (wow! messenger of Satan!? thats a bit much)
>> [I admit, her approach was a bit dramatic. Messenger of Satan.. bringer of temptation. But that sort of temptation isn’t from God, so where else then, would it come from? The HA exists so that young people have a safe environment to wholeheartedly seek after God. I firmly believe that is their intent and one of the rules is no dating. It’s in the handbook they send you before you come to the HA, it’s in the rules session. The rules weren’t a secret. So if you’re not willing to submit yourselves to the rules they set in place, why go there? I mean, when a woman starts seeking out a guy while as an intern, she’s in the wrong. He may be the right guy that God has for her, but it’s not the right time, place, or season for that. I’d like some feedback on this one.]

She forward (sic) to and encourages TM men to be the leaders on campus (so women are not allowed to lead on campus?)
>> [It doesn’t say women can’t lead. It says to encourage men to lead, to be the heads, to step out. A lot of BB’s guidelines are pretty straight-forward, sometimes a bit strange or ridiculous. If the guideline was to let women fade into the background, she probably would have said so.]

— She accepts compliments humbly and lets it roll of her back (“roll of her back” means you don’t take in what someone says…is she saying not to take compliments to heart?)
>> [I think the heart behind this was to not let pride build up in her heart. Pride comes before a fall.]

— She has no need to compete with men. She finds confidence in who God has made her. (AKA – stay in your place woman!)
>> [OR how about, “I don’t have a low self-esteem so I don’t have to prove to anyone that I can be just as much of a man or better than one. I know who I am & who God made me to be and I’m not a man.” I felt like this was addressing something along the lines of feminist ideals – for example, that we as women need to “measure up or do better” than what men can do. If God wanted me to man up.. be a man? I would’ve been born a man.]

–She contributes her leadership skills and giftings to this campus. (but wait, I thought you said she lets the men lead?)
>> [Encourages men to lead.]

— She honors leadership and their decisions, whether she agrees with them or not. (AKA you have to do whatever we say whether you like it or not)
>> [Somewhat addressed this in the messenger of Satan post. Rules weren’t a secret. You agreed to them at the commitment banquet. It’s a matter of following through with what you said you were going to do. Also, there’s a difference between blindly following & honoring a decision. It’s a matter of respect. They may have foresight that you don’t see.]

Feedback? Thoughts?

“>> [Um.. That.. reference doesn’t exist. <_<;]”

I think that was the joke, Samantha 😉

@nunquam Oh! ..OH! Duh. Haha. I honestly thought RA had one of those moments when you think of a word, but type a different one. Probably because that happens to me all the time.

@anon 12:50

so women should completely alter who they are and become overly self-aware in order to save a male intern from distraction? LOL!

but seriously, and this is not pointed directly at you, at what point do men take responsibility for themselves and learn how to be around women? even flirty, cleavage-y women, who sometimes show too much leg or laugh too loud, or sit just a smidge too close? making women responsible for men’s thoughts or behavior in any way is co-dependency. which brenda said not to do. i’m just sayin’. 🙂

PLUS, men didn’t take the same precautions to keep the female interns from being distracted. Double. Standards.

Which is dumb.

(also I love you, Moriah. I feel the same way about such things)

Right! When girls complained that guys would play basketball without their shirts on, Hasz told them to avoid the basketball courts.

Which is TOTALLY FINE. I loved that advice, and it made perfect sense to me. Be accountable to yourself; totally works.

But when girls want to walk around in the dorms (the DORMS, people!) half-clad because it’s summer and hot, they’re sinning.

??????????

Okay, maybe not “sinning”, but definitely not classy or ladylike. Pardon me for not wanting to wear around my office attire in my own living quarters!

Totally broke that rule by the way.

I’ve always considered it the mans responsibility for the man not to lust after a woman.
However, I think that women lose the right to be offended at being treated like a piece of meat if they’re dressed like a prostitute.

I do think that if “flirting” is something to be despised that it certainly needs a definition put on it. I’ve heard some people who define flirting as very different things, and some of those definitions I would certainly stay away from, but others(like my own definition) I find perfectly fine, harmless, and healthy.

As to the idea of not walking around the dorm half naked, or naked, while I don’t think I would classify it as being unladylike, I know of several times where men were seen naked by women and vice versa at TM due to not hearing the men/women on the floor announcements, so I don’t think this is a bad guideline, but that should be the reason, not because it’s unladylike.

Nunquam,

That double standard is ridiculous. I remember a core member of mine complaining about another (very-high profile) male intern was always wearing tight t-shirts, and it was causing a problem for her. I wonder how often the men are encouraged to “speak into each others’ wardrobe” and to be completely obsessed with modesty.

Cesna,
Your indignation on my behalf made me smile. 🙂

Shannon,
I was an undergrad from Aug ’01 – ’02. I remember you, actually…weren’t you a January? Or a GI, possibly?

Wow. Women should NEVER lose the right to not be treated like a piece of meat. Or the right to be offended by that. Your standards of “dressing like a prostitute” might not be mine or Bob’s or Sue’s. I remember seeing a poll set up by some young evangelical males that went into incredible detail about what things they felt were a “stumbling block”… just ridiculous things like a woman wearing the strap of her pocket book across her chest rather than over her shoulder. I’m sure that some of those boys had a much much much lower bar for hooker wear than I do. Women should be able to walk butt arse nekkid down the street and NOT be treated like meat. Because they aren’t. They are human beings. Did Christ treat the prostitutes he met like a piece of meat?

Your line of thought there is the reason women had to deal with the whole “she was dressed like a slut so she deserved it” rape defense.

Usually Philip you say some great wise things and I agree with you but I think you missed the mark there. 😉

Philip E, I experienced it first hand….though I always tried to announce, more then once (roughly every couple of minutes), that I was in the dorms, and my location. There were other women that PURPOSEFULLY would come out of rooms half naked or scantly clad when they heard that a guy was in the dorm. We security guards couldn’t prove it, but it happened to just about everyone of the guys on the team. The ladies, to my knowledge, NEVER had it happen. We guarded the ladies, the campus men not just us security pukes, and held them in the highest regard. It’s only when we didn’t did we screw up, and get dismissed.

Hi Samantha,

Thanks for taking the time to respectfully dialogue with us about this.

First, the flirting issue. I have absolutely ZERO problem with the no dating rule. I also have no problem with the no flirting rule (during the HA). What I do have a problem with is saying:

“She despises flirting and does not resort to that level of communication to win favor or attention “

This statement is not saying, “Hey don’t flirt during the HA b/c its a distraction. ” Its saying, “Flirting is something terribly, terribly wrong and dirty. If you ever do that, you are stooping to a very low level.”

Does that make sense? There are lots of cases where the HA could just say, “Hey, this year we are following these rules because of X,Y, and Z.” That would be perfectly legit. Instead, it seems like they turn them into larger character issues with lots of condemnation if you don’t follow their behavioral guidelines. That is what bothers me. That is spiritual abuse.

Ok, now on to a few of your comments:

“As a somewhat sanguine person, I know that I draw attention sometimes, but it’s rarely my intent to draw attention to myself. I know there’s a time & a place for it. Also, if I’m trying to draw attention to myself so that people see me, wouldn’t that mean I’m trying to draw the attention of Man & getting satisfaction or affirmation from them?”

I think if you have a sanguine personality, God made you that way and you should embrace it. As with all things there is balance. Of course you shouldn’t put all your emotional health in how people view you, etc. But I’m afraid that TM teaches that seeking affirmation from others is wrong, and its absolutely not. We NEED each other. And not just for confrontation, but for emotional support and encouragement. If you need that, it seems like TM tells you that you are spiritually lacking and I disagree with that. Thoughts?

Re: few words vs. talkative

I believe those verses in Proverbs are referring to specific situations like responding to a fight, etc. I don’t think it means you should try to keep your mouth closed as much as possible.

Re: being half-naked

You live there for a year, so it IS your home. I never saw nakedness as a huge problem and I agree thats not something most people want to see…but being half-dressed? Whats wrong with that? Guys walk around in their boxers, girls walk around in their panties – whats the big deal? I also agree with Philips statement above. To me this is just another brick in laying the foundation that you are not good enough as you are, you have to constantly cover up (physically and emotionally) to be accepted. Maybe I’m reading too far into that one, though.

Re: modesty. I’m totally fine with what you’ve said, I just think “speak into her wardrobe” is a hilarious statement.

Re: dating in the mind – Several people have talked about how they were routinely confronted over purely platonic friendships. That is what I had in mind here. It sounds like you’ve had great experiences with confrontation – that is awesome. Unfortunately, for a lot of people here, confrontation was used negatively by know-it-alls who were not speaking in love. People have been accused of things which they did not do/were not thinking.

Re: dating and messenger of Satan. Again, I am totally fine with this rule, but saying anyone who violates it is a “messenger of Satan” is WAY, WAY out of line. That is absolutely spiritual abuse. Refer to my thesis on flirting. 

RE: She contributes her leadership skills and giftings to this campus. (but wait, I thought you said she lets the men lead?)
>> [Encourages men to lead.]

So just to clarify, her contribution is encouraging men to lead?

Ok wooow..Had to say that I laughed through most of this. Not only because I remember how intern women would try and “fit” into this mold, but now that Ive been away for so long how insane it was. I’m not gonna lie, I tried to fit this mold too and it was a crushing blow to me when I couldn’t. Now that Ive reread these guidelines…I cant help but laugh at the rediculous hoops women are made to jump through (all at the sake of being “Godly” by TM standards) to fit the mold.

To anonymous,
I am saying that it is stupid to be offended when you are dressing in a way to purposefully attract that very attention.

When I say “like a prostitute” I literally mean that(and prostitutes sell themselves like a piece of meat, which is sad to me as well). It is pretty obvious when women are dressing and behaving in a way that is inviting men to view them as sex objects. I am not saying that women should show no skin or anything of that sort. I’m fine with pretty much all beach attire. However, if a woman is dressing and portraying herself as nothing but a sex object, I see no way that she can then be offended when treated as what she’s marketing herself as. I don’t think it’s hard to find women who are intentionally portraying themselves as such, either(If you watch 10 music videos by a random sampling of current female artists, I would wager that at least 1 is a video portraying the singer as a sex object).

Please note that I am also not saying that men SHOULD treat them in that way, but that they will, and that the women have no reason to be shocked and offended. It would be like me going into a random bar and telling every guy I saw that I had slept with his girlfriend and then be completely shocked and offended when I get punched in the face. Should someone punch someone over that? I don’t think so. Can I truly act surprised and offended that someone did? I don’t think anyone could reasonably be surprised at that.

Granted, I never saw anyone at TM that even came close to dressing like that, but it’s not exactly uncommon to see in the world(or at least not in a college town).

I actually agree completely with Phillip here, ladies. Can I keep my ovaries?

“When I say “like a prostitute” I literally mean that(and prostitutes sell themselves like a piece of meat, which is sad to me as well).”

I don’t think that prostitutes necessarily sell themselves like “a piece of meat”. Perhaps the “buyers” view them that way, and shame on them, but I would argue that prostitution is not a “meat market”, as people say. Lets assume that prostition is purely a business venture. Someone pays money for another person to sexually pleasure them in some way. They come to an agreement, money is exchanged, payment is met. That is how a person “treats” another human being as a prostitute. However, if the behavior you are referring to, such as, cat-calling, physically assulting, touching inappropriately, or treating another human being with blatent disrespect because they are acting “sexually” or dressed in a skin tight dress and a pair of vinyl boots, then you are talking about obscene and innappropriate behavior that should not be invoked by a person’s attire (whether you feel they are dressed like a prostitue or not).

Well said, Layne.

Thank you layne.

Women dress provocatively for all sorts of reasons, not just to attract the male gaze/attention. She may not even consider herself proactively dressed since as I pointed out that is an incredibly subjective standard.

Regardless she has the right to expect to be treated as a human being.

edit: provocatively not proactively. dern spellchecker.

There is also nothing wrong with a meat market, if we are talking literally.
A meat market is a place where people go when they have physical hunger to eat, and they purchase what they need to satisfy that hunger.
Intimacy with the vendor is not required, nor is it expected.

It is exactly the same with prostitution. It is my viewpoint that when sexual activity is separated from the personal relationship with that person, it is simply feeling a sexual hunger and finding a vendor to satisfy that hunger. No relationship or intimacy is required or expected.

I certainly agree with you if we are talking about physical and sexual assault, I certainly agree that this is out of bounds and should not be expected regardless of how a woman is dressed.

That’s not what I was talking about though, I’m more of talking about leering and basically ignoring all of the person except the sexual part.

Again, I don’t think men SHOULD treat women in that way, but it is the way that they WILL treat them. I also don’t think women SHOULD dress to be sexually provocative, but I think this is what the expected outcome is when they do so.

“at what point do men take responsibility for themselves and learn how to be around women?”

This is genius, Carrie.

Or consider this analogy then. I am a photographer who particularly loves taking pictures of playgrounds(not the children in the playground, but just the actual playground equipment and trees and whatnot).

If I go to the local park every day and take pictures, do you think it unthinkable that someone would think that I am a child molester?

There are responses that should be expected when I behave in a certain way.

This is true, Philip. I don’t think you were advocating bad behavior on a man’s part. Saying “dresses like a prostitute” might be a little harsh, but sometimes women will purposely show cleavage and then scream at a man for looking at her chest. Obviously, the guy is responsible for his own eyes, but c’mon…if a clown riding an ostrich walked into a room and I looked, is that 100% my fault?

Still, I think we men need to take more responsibility for our eyes, words, and hands. We should treat women with respect (I’m sure that you do, Phil) regardless of how they’re dressed.

Can I throw in…who cares if a girl/guy saw the other one naked in accident? Can’t we just laugh about these things and move on? It’s not like seeing a girl naked kills kittens.

Or does it…

I’m hitting this post late, and don’t have time to read the comments, So I don’t know if anyone has hit on this or not yet but…
There is not ONE thing on here that says, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind.’
And the ONLY thing on here about ‘God’ (or in T.M.’s case, their made up mini ‘god’ who I would not even dare to call my Creator and the Lover of my soul) is ‘Make Christ their priority.’ — Which is EARILY sounding like, ‘Let’s make this at least sound Christian before we pour a truck load of wet cement on them.’
Say these rules were correct anyways. How do you possibly expect a person to live up to the standard? And the reverse guy standard? (which I’m sure would include, ‘Treats all woman like they are damsels in distress.’ & ‘Is capable of leading all woman and men on campus.’)
The only way to conquer sin is by knowing how much God loves you! If you don’t spend time EVERY DAY seeking God, you are not even going to be able to legalistically live up to this! Again, even saying if they were right. Which they’re not, I’m just saying, T.M.’s doctrine is off even if they’re on.
That’s why it’s so humbling you know what I’m saying? You CAN’T do it on your own. You can try, but in 10 years you’ll have this mental breakdown where you completely freak out cause you’ve lost yourself in a pretend form of who you tried to become (I.E. ‘the perfect woman/man.’)
you can’t do it. Praise God. His ways are better. And T.M. is messed up.

Understand before you read this that in a former post I said no one should attend anything TM.

From skimming this post (not any of the responses) it sounds like you have a poor understanding of men’s and women’s roles. One thing TM in many ways does well is to try and reverse feminism. Men are to lead and give their lives for them Christ does the church, women are to submit as the church does to Christ. The reality is men’s and women’s roles are CLEARLY different in scripture and women CAN NOT do what men are qualified to do and vise versa.

At the risk of totally threadjacking, I can’t let this slide.

Last Anon — wow, “reverse feminism”? Feminism is a GOOD thing. Like, a really really good thing. Separate from its title, it’s why I, as a woman, can vote. It’s why I can have a child and pursue my graduate degree. It’s why I can serve Christ in the church and in the world in whatever way he deems fit — in any way that a man can. It’s why I can choose to have an egalitarian relationship with my husband, while others choose to be more complementarian in their marriages. Feminism advocates for equal pay for both genders, it combats a pervasive rape culture, and it protects the marginalized from harassment.

Feminism is not an evil. Reversing it would be bad for everyone. Reversing feminism would mean silencing women’s voices in the arts, the media, and the sciences. It would mean returning to an era where women suffered silently through the extreme depression that accompanied being told they should receive total satisfaction from waxing the floor. It would mean relegating women to a severely limited sphere of influence, to the point that we would not longer have women’s input in anything from education reform to foreign policy.

Feminism is what allows women to discover their own paths in life, whether that means being a housewife or a working mother, purposefully single or child-free.

Thank God for feminism.

And Thank God for you Liz.

I can’t even speak to anons comment… it makes my head spin that someone would think that way.

This list of ways to be a woman is the reason I was so out of place on campus. As a woman who likes to work with my hands, who likes to be outside, who is strong… really strong and likes to use that strength… and who speaks her mind… I was completely out of place.

I love to look beautiful… and for me that does not include wearing make up (most of the time) or dresses/skirts… I don’t find them comfortable most of the time.

And I like to talk… a lot. But I’m also shy…

And the whole thing about treating all men equally… I hope they told the same thing to the men… because it was clear to me that traditionally beautiful women go more attention on campus.

It’s late and I’m not making much sense.

THANK YOU, LIZ. 🙂

True Feminism says, we are equal and different. It does not say I have to be a man to be a woman, and I fear that many women take it that way. There are differences in men and women no doubt and those differences are meant to be cherished, not erased. Women need to be proud of their femininity and specifically their UNIQUE femininity. Cowgirls too!

However and this is a big however, fundamental Christians often swing the “submission” bat at women’s heads. Do we really believe that this Jesus who delivered prostitutes and adulteress women with compassion and mercy would have it that these very woman would be beaten into silence by their superior husbands? That doesn’t jive. It makes my heart sink when I think of all the examples of this I have seen. It’s evil.

littlegraygirl, I was definitely NOT a GI. I was a January. 🙂 Now I want to know who you are. 🙂

Okay okay, at the risk of having my woman card taken away, I’m going to have to say I know where the infamous Anon was coming from. I, personally, think feminism has gone WAY too far. Me being able to vote? Awesome. Saying that being a housewife is oppressing me because I want to have babies and stay home with them, that the nuclear family is keeping me down? NOT COOL.

What drives me nuts about feminists (like, the HARDCOREEEE ones), is that they want to be totally one hundred percent equal, but still want special treatment. Actually, a lot of minority groups have this mentality and it drives me bonkers (but that’s unrelated).

I’m not saying get pregnant stay in the kitchen and shut your mouth. I’m just voicing that there are certain feminists out there that are… super wonked out.

What you are talking about Cesna is not “feminism”. Feminism is -nothing more- than the EQUALITY of women to men. Calling extremist ideas feminism is like saying Muslims all believe in blowing up people or Christians all shoot abortionists. Don’t equate extremist elements with the movement at large.

“Special treatment” exists to fix deeply ingrained imbalances that are still there. If you don’t believe they are you aren’t looking.

Liz covered it quite nicely, but I must chime in to add that I wish complementarians like Anon 9:30 would notice that the verse alluded to (Ephesians 5) is addressed to wives and husbands, not all “men and women” inclusively.

Really, complementarians do just as much unbiblical eisegesis as egalitarians do; they’re just borrowing from the secular culture of the 1950s instead of today’s.

Anybody else ever read Dorothy Sayers’ witty little book Are Women Human? It re-frames the questions very cleverly.

I will forever recommend that people read books on fuzzy subjects before solidifying definitions of said subjects. Feminism is one of those.

I WILL say that much of my definition of feminism comes from a sociology course I took in college. With a huge liberal slant. And also it came up in a smattering of education courses I took as well, and many of the feminists leading the movement now (egad, Hillary terrifies me) are… yeah. I wish there were more conservative feminists in action right now. I am in NO WAY saying that the extremists define the movement (why must people put words into my mouth? oie vey, I say enough offensive stuff without you guys having to help me out), I was simply trying to point out where the previous Anon was coming from. Cripes.

Is it possible that at the heart of feminism is the power of choice?

Equality…that’s the key to understanding true feminism. Giving a woman the right to be who she wants; who she was meant to be. If a woman wants to be a housewife because she’s fulfilled by that, she has the right to choose that. If a woman wants to be Secretary of State, she has the right to choose that too.

I won’t get into gender roles here (If you’ve never been over to the forums, we have a couple of great discussions over there on the topic.), but I will support what I view as a very scriptural and very American idea, and that’s equality. Every human should have the same rights as every other human.

To me, that’s what feminism is. It isn’t saying that men and women aren’t different. That would be ridiculous. It’s saying that we are different, but our rights shouldn’t be.

“To me, that’s what feminism is. It isn’t saying that men and women aren’t different. That would be ridiculous. It’s saying that we are different, but our rights shouldn’t be.”

Very well put.

I know im a little late on this one, but it reminds me of something a pastor said about when someone makes lists of “do this, do this, dont do that dont do that.” when all is said and done all you end up with is a bunch of “do-do”.
Lists are just a way for someone to compare themselves with others. When it’s used in a text of how to be a “Godly representation” of a TM woman it takes away the opportunity of for that woman to find out for herself what God truly wants them to be.
Jesus himself didn’t even give us a “list”. Its us that need to put a standard on things and say exactly what to do.
BUT, what if we just Loved the Lord our GOd??? Would that be enough??? Enough to guide us in what we think is appropriate behavior? Enough to show us how to interact with each other without “seducing”? Enough to push us to exonerate others in their gifts (Not just the men)?
NAaaaa……
Bring on the DO-DO

Where I always had issues with TM teachings on the relationship between men and women is that they did tend to cite verses in the Bible targeted specifically at husbands and wives, as a previous poster mentioned. When I chose my husband, I was empowered. I married a man I loved, trusted and respected. It is a pleasure and a joy to submit to him because he values and esteems my opinions, perspective and other contributions (ie, he never makes major decisions without me, trusts me with the family’s finances and works his ass off so that I can stay home with our daughter). While I do have male friends that I highly respect, I will never “submit” to them in the way I do my husband. When I was an unmarried woman, I didn’t view every man as my superior. As a married woman, I don’t view every man as my superior. I was careful to choose a man who would lead our family without being cruel, overbearing or arrogant.

I like to think of myself as a true feminist… and I consider Jesus the first feminist. He did things for women that were unprecedented. He gave them back the worth and value that they were created with. And that’s why I love Him so, so much.

“and I consider Jesus the first feminist.”

agreed.

I remember reading in Oscar Wilde’s “De Profundis” that Wilde considered Jesus to be the first Romantic. (As in, Romantic era, which Wilde’s Victorian era followed, and not romantic as in full of romance.) He said he was the first figure who was a true individualist, and who valued the individual over the group.

I can’t even begin to say how upset this makes me! I was an intern in 1994-1995, and I have to say, it was not NEARLY as bad as this when I was there, in fact, being on the road, the women were expected to carry their weight when unloading the trucks, etc etc. No special treatment, no men offering to let us put our feet up while they unloaded or loaded the semi with heavy equipment. We were all there til 2am together. And that I appreciated – feeling like a valued contributing member. Our class might have even made it worse for those who came after (sorry about that!) because as I recall, we had quite a few belching ladies (they were pretty darn good at it too!) and my very best friend (to this day still 15 years later) who would fireman-carry even the biggest guys right over her shoulder just for fun. The guys all called her “hoss”. Sweeet. There’s videos of it even. 🙂 Ahh, those were the days…

I love how in this thing they say women should be surrounded by women (aka, have only women friends – her best friend cannot possibly be a dude) but then they say that women should treat all men like friends and not deprive themselves of the platonic relationship that can form… how? By glancing at them from across the room? no, that would be flirting. By allowing them to carry my… books? Ok i see. NOW we are friends. Platonically, of course.

The wardrobe thing is highly disturbing…because if we are not supposed to be judging each other, then how and why am I noticing what the girls around me are wearing enough to feel like i am going to tell her she’s wrong and should go change? That creates an environment of catty-ness, if you ask me. “Did you see what ___ is wearing? I’m going to confront her.” ew.

My husband (NOT a former TM person, thankfully – i went against the grain on that one) of 12 years jokes with me about how I am a feminist. Just a little bit. Proudly so. 🙂 Fist held high, burn this list! LoL

I like you. Yes. Lets burn this list.

Sadly, I don’t have the time in my life to read everything on here because I would really love to. I do remember being reprimanded for flirting, however… You have to realize, I came to TMM having grown up with many of these same ideals so I didn’t question them very much. Until I got confronted for flirting the first time. I liked the guy, yes, but did not intentionally act any different around him, nor was I aware that I did. I simply felt I could be myself around him, and was, but he was far from the only one this applied to so I was at a loss for how this ended up singled out (other than we worked together!) I remember saying I didn’t even know what flirting was beyond the obvious sex-laden stuff from the movies. I never said he was cute, never touched him inappropriately, never whistled at him, said anything suggestive to him… The most that happened was I recognized and said nothing to anyone about the fact that he managed to stand next to me whenever there was prayer (K-crew always began the day with prayer), which allowed him to hold my hand. He never did anything to make it obvious to anyone, least of all me, I just noticed and I don’t think I ever even told him that I noticed this, even when we talked about getting together, well over a year after I graduated. That was my only “sin” in that situation. That and my ensuing TM-inspired lie when he asked if I liked him (I was angry one day that they kept accusing me of stuff and ranted at him about it)… I was so afraid of getting dismissed simply for answering the question honestly. I lost him as a friend for 4 years from the lies that became a habit from this season. The great thing about that experience is that I absolutely refuse to lie to a direct question anymore and live as honestly as I feel I can.

I never went to Teen Mania but I had a youth pastor that spouted off things that implied that he believed that women were spiritually inferior to men, should look good for men, to be seen not heard, etc. I was thinking of starting an uprising with the support of their discontented girls that were being neglected by the youth pastor. I was not about to live silently. After all, I had a high opinion of my own knowledge of the Bible and wanted to share it with others as a missionary. And thought that may not have been very “womanly”, there was a man that liked me for me. And now I’m engaged…so go figure. The point being that women should not follow guidelines for godliness that are made up by people, instead look to the Bible for it.

“She realizes that men are visual and she doesn’t want to be the stumbling block to any of the men on campus.”

I find quotes like these to be abhorrent. It not a woman’s responsibility to make sure that she doesn’t “tempt” the men. It’s the men’s responsibility to keep it in their pants and ignore their “temptations”. This is the same “she was asking for it” mentality that rape victims face. They are essentially accusing these girls of being sluts just because they might accidentally be showing some flesh.

Incidentally, aren’t clothes just a social construct? Plenty of societies have their people run around naked and it hasn’t caused any more sexual harrassment.

This entire list is a load of crap. Honestly, why shouldn’t your current partner know about your previous partners? If you’ve had sexual relations with someone in the past and you have moved on to someone else, why would that upset anyone? Unless that person is very immature or has some kind of neurosis, I don’t understand why it’s neccesary to be DISHONEST to your partner.

I am so glad that there are christians who agree with me on this organisation,

MindBlind

Soo…. Women have to watch our emotions and how we talk and dress because men don’t like it?

A womens opinion doesn’t matter?

My favorite line: “men are visual and she doesn’t want to be the stumbling block to any of the men on campus.”

Seriously? We have to watch ourselves because men don’t have self control?

I would just like to say I know this doesn’t apply to all men, it just aggravates that thats their “perfect” picture of men and women.

I’m surprised it doesnt say “She defends herself. If a guy flirts with her she will castrate him”

Yuck. We never saw this list my year (my core didn’t at least) but we saw variations of it. Two instances stick out to me from my intern year that made me absolutely sure I would never, EVER be an HA “woman.”
The first was in a class for emotional/sexual healing they offered to the girls who wanted it. I can’t remember the name of the teacher, but I remember in one of her lessons she said that she had been in a serious relationship with a man, but had called it off because she felt that she was just slightly more intelligent than him, and women shouldn’t be more intelligent than their husbands. (Sadly, I considered having a private meeting with her later on because I felt that my disagreement with this statement must mean I struggled with rebellion. I realized later I just don’t have much of an appetite for crap.)
The second was when our family core was going on a trip and our brother CA got us lost. My CA knew the directions, but told us she wasn’t going to tell him because it would make the men feel empowered to feel that they could do it themselves. She said, instead, she would hint at what to do so he could think that he thought of it all on his own. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for encouraging our brothers in Christ, but.. seriously? If we’re following that train of thought wouldn’t it be better to tell him to turn left so he didn’t feel so stupid for driving around town an extra 30 minutes?

Also, as far as the double standards for men/women. I know for me, and a few of the girls in my core, it was NOT easy seeing a whole bunch of bare-chested men strutting around in the summer heat. But, we pulled ourselves together and tried our darndest to keep our thoughts where they needed to be. It was freaking HOT, and I am not going to blame a man for trying to cool off. But if I want to wear shorts and a tank top I think that is completely fair. We were told in our dorm that we could wear either jeans and a tank top, or shorts and a t shirt. Because shorts and a tank top would just be “too much.” Seriously, part of growing up is getting a grip. Far from creating healthy relationships, this doctrine succeeds in making men feel women are the fault for their sexual struggles, and making women too afraid to take off their coat (there might be a struggling brother nearby, ready to pounce.)

So glad I’m outta there.

I received this list as well in 01-02 in our Women of God class/conference. I have a terrible memory on names but I think it was Shannon…who taught us. We then graduated as a Women of God on stage. I remember thinking wow this is a long check list will I complete this class successfully? I never thought about it until now but I have issues with a lot of attention and I use to love attention. I haven’t seen this in 10 years and every time I read a new story on this blog I realize where things in my life stemmed from.

I went to an ATF event one time, other than that I have never been involved with TM.

However, you could show this checklist some grace. I think it offers a good picture of what a godly woman could look like. Finding her hope in the Lord and not in the praises or attention from men or woman. Sure, there are some things that sound silly, but I think I can see the heart behind each thing she says.

One can follow rules and not be “legalistic.” Look at the spirit of the law behind her statements.

Women can be leaders of other woman. We are encouraged to teach younger woman. So yes, women should not be leading other men. But we can lead other woman.

At the HA, we were constantly told to try to understand the “Spirit of the Law” and not just the “Letter of the Law.”

We were still very legalistic from it.

And why can’t women lead men? One of the best churches I ever went to had a woman pastor. Another great church I went to, the denomination was founded by a woman. I constantly learn from woman and have received life changing lessons from women.

TM is very misogynistic and damaging to a developing woman’s psyche.

Yeah the checklist has SOME good points, like the first three. Even then, only the first one stands out. Bollocks I say!

I actually agree with the majority of these points (they are just VERY POORLY written, probably with someone who never got past 8th grade) and therefore, easily misunderstood by someone who doesn’t understand the genuine meaning behind them. However, there is at least one or two dumb ones, this being the main stupid one: “She realizes that guys are here to seek the Lord and when she starts seeking a guy, then she has just become a messenger of Satan or a thorn in his flesh.” The other stupid one is about not farting in public. Like she can actually help it if a little gas escapes by accident? GOSH!

Moriah! Woo hoo!! If you’re reading this (which I don’t know if you’ll see it) … I love your free spirit! Look me up on Facebook, k? Annie McIver

So I’m commenting two years after this post originated, but …. I’m aghast at this list. Utterly aghast. BB came in during my year and I thought she was cool. Someone said on a different post that the internship changed right after my year, and it seems it did. I especially appreciate the references from August B depicting what the 94-95 year was like. That’s the TM I remember too (I was ’97). This list …… is unbelievably absurd. So absurd as to be laughable if no one took it seriously. A downright outrage if anyone did.

I also want to say though that I find it pretty awful that most of these comments are discussing the legalities of this list!!!!! Are you serious?! “Oh no, that one’s too far; I would say this or this instead, but this … no.” Seriously????? The whole point of WHY this list is such a travesty is because NONE of it (or almost none) has to do with how a woman treats other human beings. Which, for the record, IS THE ONLY DAMN THING GOD HAPPENS TO CARE ABOUT!!!! Let the women dress how they like! Let them say what they like! Let the men look! Let them walk around shirtless! Damn, if someone feels the need to act out, act out! When was loving God EVER (except in the mind of the Pharisee) about what it LOOKED like? Didn’t the list of rules REALLY go out the window? Because when a heart is pure, believe me, ONLY THE IGNORANT SEE FAULT IN THE PETTY. And it should be SAID that it is ignorance and legalism talking, not informed godliness.

For the record, ladies, if anyone ever hears me: IT IS SUPREMELY FEMININE TO BE YOURSELF. Whoever that is. There are roughly 3.5 billion ways to be feminine, because there are roughly 3.5 billion women in the world. For God’s sake, chuck the rules!! Walk around naked! Walk around in turtlenecks and Victorian dresses! Wear gemstones! Wear shells! Wear paint. Damn, I don’t care! Be yourself. Love yourself. The first person to love you is you. Anyone who is worth knowing will love YOU for the you you are. Anyone who tries to change you is an imposter and should be treated as such. THAT’S the standard. THAT’S godliness at it’s core. Why? Because the God of the universe fucking loves HUMANS. Not puppets. He’s clearly capable of creating hundreds of thousands of things without individualism and identity; without a will to choose and a mind to imagine something different. If all he wanted were puppets, he has already got PLENTY. He made humans because he happens to ACTUALLY LIKE WHEN WE THINK, ACT, AND LIVE FOR OURSELVES!!! Be you!!! Live out loud!! So some people may turn up their noses if you fart in public. THEY are not worth your time. They will find their own little circle of repression where no one farts and everyone has bowel problems. You be you. Live it. I guarantee you, you will not only be happier, you will find an incredible circle of people who know what it is to live free. Live free, ladies (and men) and don’t look back.

The only questionable line in this whole post is “a women of few words.” Most of those guidelines are amazing quite honestly, I could only pray and hope they were followed in my church. The fact that you actually have the audacity to complain about this is a feat in itself.

I could literally go through every one of these bullet points and explain why they are great rules to follow. Do women often dress like skanks even in church? YES. Does that sometimes negatively effect others? YES. Should we strive to change that? OF COURSE.

Do guys/girls often replace God with their boyfriend/girldfriend? YES! Should they? OF COURSE NOT! Are Christians often far too dependent on their parents while at the same time not honoring them? UMM DUH. Is teaching otherwise a bad thing? Maybe to the students lol. I could go on and on but you get the picture. Complain about things actually worth complaining about.

Anonymous: Why is it our job to “strive to change” what other people do? It’s none of my business. The Bible condemns those who are meddlesome (1 Timothy 5:13, 2 Peter 4:5).

Every line in this whole post is questionable, because anyone could ask a question about all of them. The question I would ask is this: “Where in the Bible is this rule specifically taught in these terms– not a prooftext or principle but this rule itself?”

I’ll wait.

(If you want to save some time— maaaaybe one or two are scriptural if you stretch some verses a bit. The rest, not at all. Believe me, I’ve checked.)

Jesus condemned the Pharisees for “teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:9). That’s what Teen Mania is doing in this list. They’ve made up their own commandments for “character”, which are not based in Scripture at all but in outmoded sexist cultural assumptions about women. Or in TM jargon, they are blindly following our culture instead of standing for truth. I’m glad to see people complaining about this false teaching. The sooner more people start questioning it, the better.

On top of that, women aren’t supposed to be visual nor hold doors open and carry heavy things for men. Men don’t tolerate that.

I just busted out! This was my year. HAHAHAHAH. Oh the memories. This place was nuts. I def. did not make the grade, but I turned out ok 🙂 Loved my time there, because of the awesome friends I made. We all look back and laugh at our experiences with this joint.