This week I’ll be taking a much needed mental and emotional break from all things TM. Since there won’t be any new posts this week, feel free to browse the archives. If you are a new reader, there is lots of great stuff from last year, especially critiques of popular TM teachings. Or you can watch the entire 2.5 hour ESOAL video from 2002: (2021 update: videos have since been taken down)
I’ll be doing my best to not think or speak of TM for a week. Nunquam Honorablus will be moderating the comments. I won’t be checking my RA email or visiting the forums.
See ya next week!
23 comments:
RA You are amazing for helping so many people find their voice. Take the time that you need and realize you are a blessing for helping and working towards real freedom for hundreds of men and women. You are beautiful. Thank you for doing this and being willing to gift people with this kind of healing. Take as much time as you need.
August 2, 2010 8:57 AM
Moriah said…
I second that!
August 2, 2010 10:31 AM
shommalommadingdong said…
Enjoy your break! I am glad you are doing that for yourself. You will be missed. 🙂
August 2, 2010 1:19 PM
katydid said…
I third that!
August 2, 2010 3:01 PM
JMillerFam said…
so why all the griping on this blog?
Kidding Kidding!!!
Enjoy the break!
August 2, 2010 5:58 PM
Shannon Kish said…
Wow, I am anxious just watching the first 5 minutes of Part 1.
August 3, 2010 7:35 PM
Shannon Kish said…
Word used to describe ESOAL by the interns in the video-
-Concentration Camp
-Scary
-Hell
Which of these words mean “growing closer to God”?
Which of these words mean anything positive?
August 3, 2010 7:43 PM
Shannon Kish said…
It is really hard to watch friends and people I know go through that. This was the year after mine and so the GIs were from my year. And some of them were from my core.
August 3, 2010 7:53 PM
Candor said…
You deserve the break. Thanks again!
August 3, 2010 9:22 PM
Fitz said…
Honestly, I laughed so hard when Randy Olsen described ESOAL as ‘like a concentration camp’ and ‘an awesome, awesome experience’ in the same breath. I disagree though, it’s not like a concentration camp. It’s like Jonestown except more capitalist and no mass suicide. I wouldn’t call mass mortification a huge step up though.
Also, I hope you’re enjoying your break RA. ^_^
August 7, 2010 3:57 AMi
an said…
I think people sharing their stories is important. Working through wounds and heart issues is vital to living. I support that, and I think it is important that people be allowed to do that without being chastised.
However, if you expect this NOT to be a debate, you need to put an end to your commentary. I believe you’re right about most of the things you say, and I think they need to be said, but if you want this site to be a refuge, this isn’t the place to say them. You can’t expect to deconstruct TM, and disallow resistance at the same time.
7/29/10 Honor Academy: Missing The Point
7/21/10 Ministry Placements: God’s Will or Manipulation?
You can’t make posts like that if your goal is to make this site a refuge and not a debate.
August 7, 2010 1:23 PM
Anonymous said…
The longer this week went on I found myself coming back here and praying that you kept to your vacation time. I prayed also that those who comment here would take their breaks from posting anger. The thing that also came to me is this is graduation weekend down there. I know the HA hurt us each in some way no matter the level pain we have had/still have. I do ask you though that no matter what stage of hurting you are in no matter what stage of faith you are in that you send love and prayers (good thoughts) toward all who graduated this weekend. Regardless of what we think of the leadership/actions/behaviors we all at one time were in their shoes. (or at least were for a while) We have each drove onto campus with a heart for God and wanting to be changed. While we would argue that the changes were not always for the better let us pray for those who are now leaving that any hurt/burden/sadness would be met with love. That those who are stuck in the legalism find grace. That those who got dismissed somewhere along the way are shown mercy and love by those who were there now that they are no longer on campus. That each of us will be able to love and hold them in our hearts as they start their real world journey.
August 7, 2010 9:00 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Hey guys- sorry that it took awhile to moderate some of the comments! I’ve been away from the Internet for a couple of days, so as soon as somebody threw their laptop (er, literally) at me I checked ’em out and moderated accordingly.
Thanks for being patient with me 😉 And RA- have a GOOD and RESTFUL break! You totally deserve it 🙂
(Now I’m off to moderate my own comment! Mahahahaaa)
August 8, 2010 8:33 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
ian – Its my blog, I can do whatever I want with it. 🙂
August 8, 2010 8:01 PM
Anonymous said…
To Shannon Kish post 7:43 Aug 3rd
Your very selective on the words you choose out of the video. Here are some phrases by interns to describe their experience in esoal in the 1st video:
(1st video) 1:20 Adam Grimm… He asked God a question and, God anserwerd him.
(1st video) 10:30 Keren Alvarado… She raised up hands (in esoal) in worship to God. I’m sure that she was tired and hurting she still worshiped the Lord in esoal.
(1st Video) 15:55 a esoal instructor talks about the reason he pushes the interns because he wants to see the ones that need to be broken, broken and also mentions he actively prays for them.
(1st Video) 22:40 Sarah Sorrell… Esoal taught her that those that are in Christ there is no condemnation.
(1st video) 23:10 Anthony Fontanello… He Talks about God working in him during esoal
(1st Video) 26:48 Elizabeth Hebert…. She talks about learning to lean and trust in the lord.
(1st video) 29:47 Sarah Weikert: She talks about God giving her biblical wisdom and she also says that it was God that lead her to do esoal. Also it was when she trusted in God that she learned she could not only ring out, but that God loved her.
(1st Video) Liz Duma 31:40 Got through esoal because she trusted in God.
(1st video) 32:15 Naomi Geist Also had to learn to trust in God and God got her through the tough times.
(1st Video) 48:30 Jim Wilson talks about God showing him the most when he was rolling the hill and gave him the strength he needed to accomplish the hill.
Now I know there are some of you who learned nothing and it was a painful and hurtful experience, and for that I am sorry. Now Esoal as we all know is optional and is not forced on anyone (I know some interns who did not do it at all), I do not say this to belittle anyone’s opinion of the ministry. But just to ask you to consider that for alot of people not only learned from esoal but also became closer to God through being broken.Also Here is a link (from Trailer Club) where interns are sharing their experiences from esoal 2009:
http://trailerclub.blogspot.com/
God Bless you all
August 9, 2010 1:25 AM
ian said…
@RA – I suppose that says it all.
August 9, 2010 10:09 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
ian – As soon as TM allows dissenting viewpoints at the internship, the alumni forum (now defunct), their FB page, etc – then maybe I won’t need to protect this place as much.
August 9, 2010 11:08 AM
Eric P. said…
Anon: “a esoal instructor talks about the reason he pushes the interns because he wants to see the ones that need to be broken, broken…”
Here are a few things the Bible says about “brokenness”:
“A joyful heart is good medicine, But a broken spirit dries up the bones.” (Proverbs 17:22)
“The spirit of a man can endure his sickness, But as for a broken spirit who can bear it?” (Proverbs 18:14)
“My servants will sing out of the joy of their hearts, but you will cry out from anguish of heart and wail in brokenness of spirit.” (Isaiah 65:14).
“This is My body, which is broken for you.” — Jesus (several references)
So in other words, according to its leaders, ESOAL is destructive, abusive, and contrary to the Gospel of Jesus.
Glad we could clear that up.
Yes, I’ve known a whole lot of people who have indeed grown closer to the Lord through experiences of abuse. So what? ESOAL is abuse. Any ministry that does this to people is abusive. Any person who willingly abuses another person needs to repent. Any system that perpetuates abuse in the name of Jesus is blasphemous.
August 9, 2010 12:02 PM
Anonymous said…
Heath, Thank you for at least acknowledging that hurt could come from ESOAL that is a big step and one that I have not heard from TM leadership before. I realize that there are some at least short term helps I just am concerned as a professional with the long term ramifications of such a LTE when the pressure is put so high on so many to participate. I thank you for being respectful to all here that had bad experiences as well. While there are some that only get good things out of ESOAL there are many like Emma (see a few posts down) that got hurt and may not have noticed the full extent of what they felt was wrong with it till later. I would love for you to see what interns that are 8-12 years out have to say in a poll where they wouldn’t have to put their honor rings on the line by stating their true feelings. God is Good and his love overflows so we would just like an honest discussion with those who gave of themselves for 1-3+ years
August 9, 2010 10:13 PM
Krista said…
“(1st Video) 15:55 a esoal instructor talks about the reason he pushes the interns because he wants to see the ones that need to be broken, broken and also mentions he actively prays for them.”
Since when is it our job as Christians to create brokenness/break people? Last I checked, that was God’s job. And for that matter, how does this person (esoal instructor) come to the conclusion that another person/intern needs to be broken? Aren’t there enough painful experiences in the real world without the TM going about trying to “break” people through experiences like ESOAL?
August 10, 2010 5:24 AM
Anonymous said…
The alumni forum never disallowed dissenting viewpoints of the ministry.
It just did not allow advocates of subjects like pornography, homosexuality, obscenity… etc.
August 10, 2010 10:19 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Anon – I don’t think that was Heath, just someone sending a link to his blog.
August 10, 2010 4:32 PM
Shannon Kish said…
Anon who sent the links… Yes, those that were participating in it had some good things to say about ESOAL and I NEVER denied that.
But, it is odd to me that someone would use the words that I pointed out.. concentration camp, hell, scary.
Since when is it our job as humans to put people through experiences such as “hell” and a “concentration camp”? Ellie Wiesel is a concentration camp (Nazi era) survivor and his book _Night_ talks about his struggles. I guarantee you that he grew personally from the experience, but that doesn’t take away from the pain and torment that he went through.
Do I think ESOAL is like a concentration camp? No, because at least in ESOAL there is an option to ring out with the worst consequence being ridicule from fellow participants. A concentration camp is not an optional experience.
Do I think they both have similar characteristics? Yes. The object of both ESOAL and a concentration camp is to control and break down the participants. Breaking down the participants in order to control them is what happens.
How many interns, from the video, refused to call their fellow _family_ losers? How many GIs refused to taunt those under their wings? NONE. They all did what they were told. DH even went as far as taunting some of the interns, providing sexist digs at some of the females.
When I went through ESOAL, I too believed (wholeheartedly) that it was a good experience and that God is who brought me through it to the point that I was injured.
Those in Jonestown surely thought that they were called to die the day they drank the kool-aid and that it was God that provided it for them.
Humans are gullible and vulnerable people, especially when they come from a broken past. Humans long for love and acceptance (see Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs). This is why you find the girl who didn’t receive affection and love from her dad or surrogate parent clinging onto the first boy that gives her the time of day.
So, Anon, I recognize that those participants didn’t see anything wrong with their experience and I will grant you that a majority of them grew from their experiences. But, does growing from an experience make the experience itself acceptable? No!
I grew from what my sister went through at 15, but I would NEVER wish it upon anyone. I grew from my mom’s death– but that doesn’t mean that I don’t wish, everyday, that she were alive again. I grew from my time at the HA, but you couldn’t pay me enough to go through the hell that I went through at the HA again–despite the growth I endured.
August 10, 2010 10:36 PM