Katie Luce teaches a women’s class at the Honor Academy called Risen. Some wonderful people inside Teen Mania have provided me with the audio and PowerPoints from some of her messages during the fall semester of 2010.
Katie often likes to talk about God’s power and desire to give us physical healing. During that sermon she said:
Is God this God that puts sickness on us just to teach us? Well, did Jesus do that? Can anybody tell me a Scripture where Jesus put sickness on somebody to teach them? You can’t find it! Its not there. I’ve read the whole bible a bunch of times.
After I listened to this statement and read the PowerPoint slide above, I wondered to myself what she must think about ESOAL. After all, the entire premise of ESOAL is that it uses physical pain to “teach a lesson.” In fact, Teen Mania uses (or should I say twists?) Scripture to back up the fact that physical pain is a part of spiritual transformation. Why else are the interns forced to memorize I Cor. 9:27?
Or Isaiah 21:3-4?
My curiosity was quickly satiated when she started her class the week after ESOAL with this statement:
I feel like the most important lesson that you come away with from ESOAL is just learning how to push through past what you know you physically, emotionally and mentally can do. Really learning to trust God and go with His strength, the joy of the Lord is your strength. That’s something that. You will use that the rest of your life, every day of your life. I just think its one of the most amazing learning experiences here that we have at the Honor Academy.
So Katie teaches that God won’t give us sickness (or pain) in order to teach us spiritual lessons yet Teen Mania can inflict injury, infection and pain through ESOAL and she deems it “one of the most amazing learning experiences at the Honor Academy.”
Huh??
35 comments:
Wow….TM double speak in action??? I read this, and sat there scratching my head cause you’re right RA, it doesn’t make sense that she would preach about God not inflicting us with sickness and pain, yet they can beat you physically and inflict pain, and recently have used ESOAL for punishment.
February 28, 2011 7:34 AM
Anonymous said…
If TM were a sundae….Katie Luce would be the nuts.
I have never heard anyone (outside of TM) alledge that God afflicts us with illness/pain to teach us a lesson. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it KL who has attributed illness to sin in one’s life?
So…God doesn’t put sickness on us, but TM creates an environment that fosters sickness/pain (not just ESOAL, but the hectic, sleep deprived life interns are expected to live)to teach for the glory of God, so can be your strength.
My darker side would pay money to see Katie Luce do ESOAL.
February 28, 2011 8:00 AM
Charlie Brown said…
I’m confused as to what your point is. It seems like KL would agree with you, and yet you’re lambasting her for double speak?
Are you looking for a resolution, or a fight?
February 28, 2011 9:02 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Charlie Brown – How can I agree with doublespeak? Your comment does not make sense to me.
February 28, 2011 9:13 AM
Eric said…
Yes, you should definitely say “twists.”
February 28, 2011 9:20 AM
Thinks A Lot said…
“So Katie teaches that God won’t give us sickness (or pain) in order to teach us spiritual lessons yet Teen Mania can inflict injury, infection and pain through ESOAL and she deems it “one of the most amazing learning experiences at the Honor Academy.”
Huh??”
On one hand she is saying, “God won’t hurt you.” On the other hand she is saying, “We think it is good to hurt you so you can learn how to function while hurting.”
Double speak. Yes.
February 28, 2011 9:36 AM
heartsfire said…
KL is one of the most messed up in her thinking I have ever met. Her teaching a class for all the women of the HA really worries me for those ladies.
February 28, 2011 9:58 AM
Committed Christian said…
I thought “all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose” (Rom 8:28), the purpose is to conform us more and more into the image of Christ (in righteousness) and God uses anything to do that, including sickness?
February 28, 2011 11:50 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
The point of this post isn’t so much to dissect the various theologies that Katie advocates – but to point out that this kind of doublespeak creates confusion for the interns. This is one of a hundred examples of interns being told totally conflicting things – both of which are supposed to be “God’s will.”
February 28, 2011 11:57 AM
catsaved said…
It’s clearly doublespeak for the intent of supporting what the HA does, I can’t believe she’d encourage her children to participate in ESOAL…
I do really like the background for her pp slide though- cute trees!
February 28, 2011 8:10 PM
Charlie Brown said…
Ha Ha. You people are making up quotes like she said them.
If you take the things she actually says and put them together they make perfect sense. There’s no double speak.
[Paraphrased]
“The creation of pain is not Godly”.
“You can leave ESOAL with an understanding that you can break through your presupposed barriers.”
Both of those are true, and neither of them promote the artificial infliction of pain.
The things you’re attributing to her are born of your own idea’s. They’re not implied by her statements.
February 28, 2011 8:44 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Charlie Brown – there is a difference between saying that you can learn to “break through your presuppopsed barriers” and saying that WE ARE GOING TO PURPOSELY INFLICT PAIN so that you can learn that lesson. She is one that says God doesn’t inflict pain to teach a lesson, yet that is exactly what the HA does. See the doublespeak now?
All of these are direct quotes from Katie Luce, spoken during the current intern year.
February 28, 2011 9:00 PM
Charlie Brown said…
@RA
You’re right. There IS a difference. That’s the point I’m trying to make. She doesn’t say “we are going to purposely inflict pain”. She says “learning how to push through past what you know you physically, emotionally and mentally can do”.
“WE ARE GOING TO PURPOSELY INFLICT PAIN” is NOT a direct quote from KL. That’s an RA quote, or maybe a Thinks-A-Lot quote, but not a KL quote.
If you take her actual quotes, instead of the made up quotes that are being attributed to her, her original quotes support you, and there’s no double speak.
February 28, 2011 9:07 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Wow, really? I am afraid you are perhaps being deliberately obtuse.
“WE ARE GOING TO PURPOSELY INFLICT PAIN” doesn’t have to be a direct quote from Katie, as its the entire premise behind ESOAL – and she supports ESOAL – therefore she supports that idea.
I’m not sure how you can miss that…
February 28, 2011 9:09 PM
Charlie Brown said…
I’m being deliberately objective, and looking at what was said, instead of making things up to support a preconceived notion.
February 28, 2011 9:16 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
You’re entitled to your opinion…
Recovering Alumni said…
And for the record, I didn’t make anything up. 🙂
February 28, 2011 9:18 PM
Brad said…
Ah… sorry. One more response to address this:
“On one hand she is saying, ‘God won’t hurt you.’ On the other hand she is saying, ‘We think it is good to hurt you so you can learn how to function while hurting.'”
Thought:
The US Marine Corp continues to practice the policy of “no man left behind.” They literally and willingly put their lives on the line for each other and are some of the world’s most aggressive and courageous soldiers in the battlefield.
However, during training, in order to teach survival and train focus for military operations and hostile encounters, there are several boot camps that a Marine must go through in order to be classified a Marine. This is essentially ESOAL: a VOLUNTARY PROGRAM to test and build mental and emotional strength in the face of direct adversity, struggle, etc.
Now, I do think the ESOAL is kinda whacky, personally. I didn’t do it, and I struggled with another five letter called GUILT for years afterward. However, I’m realizing that I’m getting past that guilt, and I’m recognizing that I shouldn’t have felt guilty either. I clearly and deliberately made my choice.
But if someone wants to host a voluntary program–manipulation or not, and if someone else wants to attend this voluntary program, I see no problem with it, no matter how weird it may seem to the outside world.
Most of the world never join the armed forces either.
Peace.
February 28, 2011 9:41 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Whether or not ESOAL is actually voluntary is debatable….
But I think the real question here is, if you claim to be like God and you claim to teach people God’s ways – how can you use methods that are totally different than the methods that He uses?
Brad – I don’t think the military analogy holds up simply because we are talking about two totally different situations – one is a physical battle and the other is the spiritual life. Those two things are quite different.
February 28, 2011 10:08 PM
Thinks A Lot said…
@Charlie Brown
Let me get something straight quickly, I wasn’t quoting KL when I said,
“On one hand she is saying, “God won’t hurt you.” On the other hand she is saying, “We think it is good to hurt you so you can learn how to function while hurting.”
**I was trying to sum up the message I understood from her two different points in her speeches. I was just making heads or tails out of what I believe she teaches.
@ Brad With tons of respect here but I’m not sure what point you are making?
My quote wasn’t just speaking about “voluntary” ESOAL. I was pointing out the two VERY Different teachings KL is presenting to the interns.
I’ve never been in the military but I’ve had people close to me that have been in different areas of armed forces. I have heard several of them say that NO training could really prepare them for some of the things they saw. They had to rely on themselves and their fellow soldiers to help them through.
Personally, I don’t believe ESOAL prepares anyone for EMOTIONALLY STRETCHING experiences. In my own experience, I’ve learned that God’s love and His Word in all truthfulness is what gets us through those times. They can’t be faked in a “training” situation. However, it can confuse and hurt people with double speaking teachings like the ones above.
I hope this makes some sense. I’ve said it a million times, I’m not the best writer.
March 1, 2011 2:52 AM
Thinks A Lot said…
@RA VERY WELL SAID
“But I think the real question here is, if you claim to be like God and you claim to teach people God’s ways – how can you use methods that are totally different than the methods that He uses?”
March 1, 2011 3:07 AM
layne said…
@Charlie
—-[Paraphrased]
“The creation of pain is not Godly”.
“You can leave ESOAL with an understanding that you can break through your presupposed barriers.”
Both of those are true, and neither of them promote the artificial infliction of pain.—-
Wait, how is the second part (referring to ESOAL) true? And how does ESOAL not promote the artifical infliction of pain?
March 1, 2011 9:16 AM
heartsfire said…
I tend toward this view of the HA in general, if you were one of the lucky ones that were really REALLY able to ignore all the crap and double speak and get some good moments out of the teachings and therefore had a fully positive experience I am glad for you. However don’t come to the place where those that didn’t meet and discuss the dangers of what they see and start saying they are wrong for what they see. I have heard a great deal of the Risen’s lectures from 10-11 and what they teach women is almost fully double speak and very much a dangerous mindset. Be beautiful, wear makeup, be attractive, but not TOO beautiful, don’t wear your clothes in this way or that. Pain isn’t from God and its not something God uses but he asked you to go through this DANGEROUS and pain filled experience to teach you…. There are hundreds of examples through last falls Risen class and I feel sickend by these ideas. To listen to what is taught there you have to wonder if KL really believes all that (specifically since as someone reminded me she once had an Eating Disorder) or if she just feels that this is the life she accepted when she got married. I dunno I just really don’t but if she does believe all these things then she must really confuse herself sometimes.
March 1, 2011 9:42 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Somehow Brad’s first comment last night got deleted…I’m reposting below.
March 1, 2011 10:20 AM
Brad said…
Just being honest here, but the difference between deliberately inflicting pain on someone is that ESOAL was (whether we want to recognize this or not) voluntary. And there was definitely a guilt trip and manipulation thing going on in some circles to participate, but in the end, we still had a choice.
Those of us who unwillingly participated were probably simply too insecure or immature to recognize their own freedom, which is completely understandable–most of us were fresh out of high school and quite accustomed to religious authority. =)
Secondly, *and I obviously can’t/won’t speak for God’s full motivation at all, but it certainly seems that presuming the story is factual and not fictional–which many Biblical scholars continue to debate today, Job certainly endured sickness and suffering in order to learn some valuable lessons. But even then, I personally “translate” that God did intend to be merciful and good to Job regardless of whatever character flaws/weakness he had.
Just some honest food for thought, if this was alright. And last thing: there’s no need to bash on Katie Luce… she’s just a human being trying to help other human beings in the way she was taught by other human beings. I’m not offended by people taking jabs at her, by the way… I don’t know her, and I doubt that Katie is participating on this site. I just don’t think it’s necessary, very nice, or productive is all.
And I’m NOT excusing any negative crap that went down at TM… I know there was a lot of it; there’s no denying. Nor do I feel that anyone would be wise to “just move on” without dealing with painful experiences in their lives.
I’m just trying to focus on some of the facts and be honest with what I see here–in this post and in the responses.
Thanks for hearing me out. =)
March 1, 2011 10:21 AM
jeff said…
One of the things with the doublespeak that RA rightly points out with her posts is that it tends to promote an atmosphere of confusion within a closed group where nobody REALLY knows what to expect in their own life. And unfortunately (IMO) is that in this case Hasz or one of the other leaders are left to fill in the blanks for people under their care.
The problem with this situation is that these guys (and gals as appropriate) are too full of themselves and tend to think that their stupid opinions are the ultimate arbiter of truth for the students. This is why many of you are painfully aware of institutional abuse towards yourself and others while in Honor Academy IMO.
And let me say that whether or not a leader is aware of their abuse or not doesn’t really mean much to the victims. But of course, if a leader is aware of the abuse they inflict they deserve a full measure back at them in response, because in the gospel of Luke, the Lord said He would deliver those abusers many stripes, referring to a whipping.
March 1, 2011 10:34 AM
enlightenmentisntsoscary said…
@Charlie Brown. It is not “more correct” for one to objectively look at only her direct quotes in any one particular message. You can’t separate each line and take it out of the context of everything TM is, stands for, does, supports, everything else she’s ever said, done, stood for, and supported. Implied meaning, connecting the inferences, etc. are all standard ways to observe and crituque ANY speaker. She is not giving an objective opinion and we are not meant to be only objective when deciding what to do with it. It’s called critical thinking.
March 1, 2011 10:45 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
+1 enlightenment
March 1, 2011 10:46 AM
Brad K said…
Hey everyone:
“Brad – I don’t think the military analogy holds up simply because we are talking about two totally different situations – one is a physical battle and the other is the spiritual life. Those two things are quite different.”
RA: maybe the problem is simply one with wording/perception then from TM… that they should be offering such a program for emotional/mental/physical reasons and not “over-spiritualizing” things as they so often do.
But it is voluntary. It always has been, even if they manipulate people.
HEATSFIRE: I definitely can’t (and wouldn’t want to) disagree with you, man… the doublespeak is evident and factual. This certainly isn’t limited to TM though either! Crap… there’s been so much doublespeak throughout my experiences with Christianity that it’s literally laughable. *I did grow up attending a very legalistic fundamental Baptist school (listening to freaking Hillsong would get you literally expelled) and going to a “non-denominational” pentacostal/charismatic prosperity church obsessed with how things looked and very weird and hierarchal behaviors in general. I’ve pretty much seen/heard it all! =)
…
Last thing to address for now… “But I think the real question here is, if you claim to be like God and you claim to teach people God’s ways – how can you use methods that are totally different than the methods that He uses?”
Again, I feel that had Teen Mania not over-spiritualized things and encouraged people to engage in ESOAL (to the point where it felt pretty darn manipulative), there’d be little problem with the program. ESOAL, to me, is far from TM biggest problems… it’s a few day very intense/exhaustive exercise on multiple levels.
It’s that TM over-spiritualizes things and has quite obvious double standards (whether they intend to or not) that damages many people that they connect with and severely tarnishes their reputation as Evangelical Christians.
But truthfully, and this is MY view–and I’m not telling or advising anyone else to have my view–I really don’t think that most of the people at TM consciously realize what they’re doing. They have been wrapped up in the religious bubble for a long time and are starving for oxygen… it is not merely a constructive greenhouse, but a very segregated our-way-or-the-high-way (which is not necessarily always the true “Christian” way at all) community.
And I don’t think it’s any of our responsibility to fix them… I don’t think we can make anyone see the things from an angle they have never actually been in (how long have they seen things from the same ground??? bubble bubble). Plus, we clearly have enough issues and/or confusion to deal with on our own–speaking for myself, anyway. =)
March 1, 2011 10:47 AM
Brad K said…
And RA: thanks for reposting, man. Don’t know what the heck happened… sorry I freaked out over email.
March 1, 2011 10:48 AM
jeff said…
Brad said,
“And I don’t think it’s any of our responsibility to fix them… I don’t think we can make anyone see the things from an angle they have never actually been in (how long have they seen things from the same ground??? bubble bubble). Plus, we clearly have enough issues and/or confusion to deal with on our own–speaking for myself, anyway. =)”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IMO you have every right to speak for yourself Brad and to decide for yourself what you are capable of dealing with.
But when you say, “And I don’t think it’s any of our responsibility to fix them” you clearly are not speaking for yourself. Personally what I try to fix or not, who I try to help or not, & who I talk to about any of the specifics I feel I either need to learn or feel I have something to add is entirely not up to you.
March 1, 2011 11:11 AM
Renae said…
It may not be our responsibility to fix them, but I certainly feel it’s my responsibility to point out the hurt and pain they’ve caused me and others, as well as make known their false doctrine so hopefully future potential interns will hear the other side of the “Teen Mania is so awesome it changed my whole life” mantra.
March 2, 2011 12:13 AM
Anonymous said…
Teen Mania is beyond fixing
March 2, 2011 2:46 AM
Brad said…
Wow… a little defensive guys. I’m not your enemy, nor do I represent or defend people at TM for ridiculous things they have said or done.
If you do feel that it’s your responsibility to try and fix a massive organization like TM, I’d love to hear your strategy, and I’d love to help however I can. I’ll write letters, attend meetings, and do whatever else I can.
I simply also know that I’ve done these things on my own–even with some of the people that I know and love there–and so far, it just hasn’t worked out, and it’s brought me even lower.
I guess my only question/plea for those who do want to fix it directly is this: please just be careful that it doesn’t further drain you or wreck your life. Because while I do believe in social responsibility, TM is far from the worst thing out there (just thinking about the sex trafficking that my friends are fight against), and truthfully (and this is just me), I tend to take on so much responsibility that’s not mine that sometimes, it really cripples me from being able to do anything, let alone feel like I can breathe.
So I’m definitely not telling anyone what to do. If I’ve misrepresented that in any way, I apologize, and let this statement be a reassurance that I’m not telling you what to do. However, I am asking–only because I care, not because I think it’s the “right” or “wrong” thing to do either way–that we all be careful, just as I have to be careful.
I’m sure that others have a higher tolerance for focusing on a goal and achieving it. For me though–again, FOR ME–I just know that I have to be careful for my own soul/sanity’s sake.
So let me in on the game plan then, because other than this blog, I’m not currently aware of very much that can challenge and/or improve them.
And I don’t think that simply picketing with signs would really change what negative aspects of their programs may still be going on either… I think that the only want to really change is to want to change: to be willing to see.
And if there are those at TM that still aren’t willing or able… what can I do about it?
***AGAIN… these are only MY thoughts and feelings. Please do what you feel is best, and I’m behind you.
I love and care for you all, and I’m not attempting to be politically bs’ing you either. I also care for people at TM, even the ones who I have staunch disagreements with.
Thanks for listening to me ramble on… trying to be honest and thorough at the same time. PEACE OUT.
March 2, 2011 12:36 PM
Anonymous said…
TM teaches us to be “world changers” let’s start with changing their world (to perhaps a 9/5 office job)
March 2, 2011 8:38 PM