After each of the previous media stories done on Teen Mania, we’ve seen them lie both to the reporters and to the public at large. So it was no surprise that it happened again with the most recent story from the Fox Los Angeles story.
This time, the lies come courtesy of Teen Mania’s Communication Consultant, Cindy Brown Mallette. (This isn’t the first time Cindy has lied.) She made a very lengthy – and quite damning – comment on the FOX LA website. You can read the whole thing here. For this post, I’d like to one specific paragraph.
Regarding the ESOAL/PEARL event, Cindy said:
Gina also said that the interns who participate in PEARL are “pushing their bodies to the limit, all in the name of Jesus.” That is not true – Dave Hasz told Dan at least three times during the interview (because Dan repeatedly asked the question, to clarify) that Pearl is not designed to be a religious experience, but a team-building and endurance-building event. Obviously, since we are a Christian organization, we encourage the interns to look to Christ for strength to get through the event. But to say interns are doing this “in the name of Jesus” is a gross exaggeration and, again, extremely misleading.
So Teen Mania’s new PR line is that ESOAL/PEARL is NOT a religious experience and that doing it in the name of Jesus is a “gross exaggeration and misleading.”
Any former intern knows this is baloney. Please take a moment to pick your jaw up off the floor and/or laugh yourself silly at the absurdity of it.
Done? Ok, let’s move on.
For those of you who haven’t been interns, allow me to show you the evidence. This was compiled by watching the Honor Academy’s youtube channel for about 5 minutes and looking at the Honor Academy’s own website. Believe me, it didn’t take much…
First, according to the Honor Academy’s OWN website, the PEARL is designed to be a religious experience. The press release announcing the name change to PEARL includes a testimony that states:
“During ESOAL, I learned what it meant to not rely on circumstances and situations for comfort, but on God alone. I experienced the joy that Christ gives you when you encourage others through teamwork.”
Sounds like a religious experience to me!
In addition, on the ESOAL Testimonies page, there are descriptions of religious experiences:
I had a closed vision in which I saw myself through the eyes of heaven. It showed me how God has put special thought into everything about my life: how He created my needs and desires so that I would be dependent on Him.
I was stretched by God to not take any supplements for my health at the very start of ESOAL. Nervous, because of a weak immune system, I still chose to trust Him and to rely on His strength because I knew that I had clearly heard His voice in this challenge.
Lastly, on the page “What Inspires the Honor Academy interns during the PEARL?” there is a list of verses and the HA Hymn – a hymn of devotion and surrender.
Are you still with me? Good.
Now let’s take a look at the videos from THIS YEAR’S PEARL event. These are made BY Teen Mania to show the public what PEARL is and as a means of marketing to future interns. The content of these videos is completely controlled by Teen Mania – so you are seeing only what they want you to see.
And, as you’ll find with almost any random sampling of videos – PEARL is VERY much designed to be a religious experience and it is advertised as such – contrary to what Teen Mania’s Spokesperson said.
1:05 – This is definitely the Lord’s strength taking me through this. I’ve hit BAR like 5 times.
BAR is the sketchy theological underpinnings of ESOAL which stands for “Burial and Resurrection.” Read more here.
Heath asks this group of interns how they would explain Pearl to people watching at home…
1:50 – It really stretches you spiritually…you have to have faith in the Lord…rely on Him for strength. (paraphrase)
1:00 – Thats what this whole thing is about…the Biblical truth of selflessness…learning what Jesus meant when he said the greatest among you will be a servant of all….there’s Bible everywhere and its solid Biblical truth. (paraphrase)
1:40 – Dave Neal tells the interns that God has put the specific people in their PEARL groups for His purposes.
Worship Service:
So to recap:
There is a worship service, they memorize Bible verses, there is “Bible everywhere,” and God chooses who will be in your PEARL group, and you can reach burial of your flesh and resurrection of your spirit, and there is lots of group prayer and it stretches you spiritually….BUT ITS NOT DESIGNED TO BE A RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE!
Uh-huh.
Like night follows the day, Teen Mania scrambles and lies after every media expose. How they can continue to claim integrity and honor is simply beyond me
123 comments:
Ericsays:March 7, 2012 8:00 AMReply
Thanks for finding the clip proving that PEARL still teaches “B.A.R.” That confirms my worst suspicions.
This is the most damning remark I’ve seen from them since that HA Parents blog published the post, “Salvation Is Free, But…”
In fact I kind of agree with Cindy that what happens during ESOAL has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. (Though unfortunately she probably didn’t mean it quite that way….) Why TM claims a doctrine like BAR is remotely related to the teachings of Someone who refused to put God to the test is anybody’s guess. And of course according to the Bible, Jesus’ burial and resurrection, not ours, gives us spiritual strength.
What’s strange is she seems to think this is a selling point. Claiming that a group teaches Christian doctrine when it really doesn’t is a classic sign of a cult; see anything by Walter Martin. Either way, whether it’s Cindy or TM who’s intending to deceive us here, it’s not looking good for TM.
Anonymoussays:March 7, 2012 11:16 AMReply
And one day they will have to clarify and say that The honor academy in and of itself is meant to be an internship and not a religious experience
Recovering Alumnisays:March 7, 2012 12:08 PMReply
Anonymous – Isn’t that the truth!
Truth68says:March 7, 2012 12:49 PMReply
Sounds like this is a typical “switch and bait”.
I am tired of hearing of many of these people whether in our Christian organizations and churches or in our government tell or do one thing and then do or say another. This is getting ridiculous and people need to stop listening to these pathological lies and start thinking for themselves! Start thinking critically people!
Truth68says:March 7, 2012 12:50 PMReply
Sorry I meant “bait and switch” oops
Esthersays:March 7, 2012 2:19 PMReply
This has been tweeted to Cindy, right? I’d love to see her take on this.
Ericsays:March 7, 2012 2:33 PMReply
It should be pointed out (because I missed it myself the first time through) that Cindy attributes this falsehood to none other than Dave Hasz himself:
“Dave Hasz told Dan at least three times during the interview (because Dan repeatedly asked the question, to clarify)…”
suzysays:March 7, 2012 2:36 PMReply
@Esther…she’s probably in the unemployment line…
Wanderersays:March 7, 2012 2:39 PMReply
I’m not catching the difference between “encouraging interns to look to Jesus for strength to get through it” and a “religious experience”. Those sound the same to me, so why does Cindy differentiate? Somebody help me understand….?
Esthersays:March 7, 2012 2:48 PMReply
I just tweeted the link to her. Hopefully she’ll respond in the comments under her own name and not resort to “Anonymous”.
Wanderersays:March 7, 2012 2:48 PMReply
I just don’t see why it’s so upsetting to say PEARL is done in the name of Jesus … In the very next sentence after she says they’re encouraged to look to Jesus. So….how does that work?
Wanderersays:March 7, 2012 2:49 PMReply
Sorry for the redundancy but I’m baffled.
Nunquam Honorablussays:March 7, 2012 3:14 PMReply
Wanderer- I believe what she means, is that the event ITSELF, is “meant” to be a “team-building” thing. It just so happens to take place in a Christian environment, so they are going to encourage Christian values like looking to Jesus for strength, etc. The event itself doesn’t call for it, but leadership encourages them to do this, because of how they are being stretched.
It’s bullshit no matter what way you cut it, but I think that’s what she meant.
Ericsays:March 7, 2012 3:21 PMReply
Wanderer– “Lying is the intent to deceive.” TM apparently has finally figured out that doing such abusive things as ESOAL / PEARL (for which there’s clearly no biblical basis whatsoever) makes them look bad, especially when it’s revealed that they do it “in the name of Jesus” — a characteristic of many cults. It’s even worse in this case, since it would clearly be ludicrous to argue that Fox News of all people have a liberal agenda against religion. So now they’re overcorrecting, but taking a pratfall off the opposite side of the horse.
That said, I would hate to see Cindy take the fall if, as her comment suggests, Dave Hasz is the real source of the lie. Has Hasz made some more definite statements to that effect? Perhaps someone can fill us in further.
a. l. f.says:March 7, 2012 4:18 PMReply
this whole “BAR” thing is one of the most culty terms i’ve heard from teen mania! the burial and resurrection mentioned in the bible that takes place in a believers life is the symbolism in baptism, not something we do by pushing ourselves or each other to an abusive length. it says we were metaphorically buried with christ when he died and resurrected when he rose. the concept that you can make this happen by following dave and ron… tastes like koolaid.
lucas_rocheleausays:March 7, 2012 5:50 PMReply
I really hate that music…
ishouldcarelesssays:March 8, 2012 1:18 PMReply
Mulligan.
Thankssays:March 9, 2012 11:23 PMReply
Thank you for posting these videos. I think this activity looks amazing. You have helped to inspire me to raise some money so I can participate in the next PEARL event that comes around. I was invited to come to any of the ESOAL events they held in the past, but I never got around to it. I didn’t realize how beneficial a few day long activity could be until I stumbled onto these videos on your site.
littlegraygirlsays:March 10, 2012 12:14 AMReply
Thanks:
You have to raise money in order to participate? I thought the interns got to participate in this without additional cost. Are you not an intern? If you’re not, but you’ve been invited to participate in PEARL, are they making you raise money just for that specific event?
I’m genuinely curious, because ESOAL/PEARL is something I know that they offer to interns, parents of interns, and HA alumni, but I’ve never heard of the HA charging any of them for the opportunity to participate. How much money are they asking you to raise?
Also, for the record, it is not simply a day-long event. It lasts at least 2, sometimes as long as 4 (part of the challenge of the event is never knowing when it is going to end). I’m just saying this so that you’ll know to clear your calendar for the appropriate amount of time.
Beyond that, I would simply say, knock yourself out. If this sort of thing appeals to you, then by all means, do it. Some people are drawn to these sort of challenges. The danger is believing that just because YOU get off on this sort of thing, necessarily means that it is good for everyone. I personally think that that is the biggest problem with the ESOAL/PEARL event. A lot of people zero in on this specific LTE as if it’s the most heinous aspect of the internship, but I think there are many things about the HA that are MUCH worse. But I’ve done it twice, and TO ME it was no big deal. I happen to know, however, that some people were very much traumatized by certain things that happened to them while they were participating, and I don’t by any means want to disregard or belittle their experience. And I think that the fact that so many people really have been seriously hurt by this event should be cause for serious consideration. And that is the whole problem with the HA’s handling of this event. If they really want to have it, then they should proceed with sincere discernment to try and figure out how they can do it in such a way that it won’t cause harm to anyone.
Ericsays:March 10, 2012 11:25 AMReply
“Thanks” — It’s good to hear that when you searched for videos of ESOAL and PEARL, this site was the one that came up! Thanks for letting us know.
If you’re really sure that the kind of spiritual experience you want is to learn about integrity from liars, pay money to do things you could do for free, and submit to techniques of cultic brainwashing, then PEARL will definitely be a great fit. Break a leg!
Truth68says:March 10, 2012 12:43 PMReply
Thanks-
just a reminder….. This kind of activity will not make your salvation any more pious to God nor will achieve salvation. You won’t win any brownie points with Him- what he really wants though is our hearts and to be open to the Holy Spirit. He really wants the fruit of the Spirit, like peace, joy, long-suffering, patience, love, etc.. He wants to love Him, but not through putting your body through bootcamp.
We THINK we need to do activities like this because we think it will make us “model” Christians, but it the end it will either make one feel more guilty or more of a moralist.
Otherwise, if you are just doing this for the strenuous workout- knock yourself out. I could think of other better places that would be cheaper to reach the same goal. My child does rock climbing twice a week and gets a good workout.
Anonymoussays:March 11, 2012 1:31 AMReply
I think I want to Try it out as well…
Esthersays:March 11, 2012 2:22 PMReply
I think we have some trolls in the house.
Anonymoussays:March 14, 2012 7:51 AMReply
Doing something in the name of Jesus and learning to rely on His strength is different, bluring this line does not help the conversation to see meaningful change.
Doug Duncansays:March 14, 2012 9:15 AMReply
Posting as “Anonymous” does nothing to help the conversation, either. If you are not comfortable using your real name, then pick a handle so we can distinguish one anonymous poster from another.
I do find it interesting, though, that none of the apologists for TM are willing to post under their real names. Are they ashamed to be associated with the organization?
Ericsays:March 14, 2012 11:03 AMReply
“Doing something in the name of Jesus and learning to rely on His strength is different…”
How can you say you rely on Jesus’ strength without doing it in Jesus’ name? Do tell.
Of course, one could take the angle that PEARL is not really done in Jesus’ name– hence it’s “a gross exaggeration”– because it’s a cultic practice that has nothing to do with the actual teachings of Jesus or the Bible. (In the Bible, the devil tempted Jesus to do something dangerous that would show He relied on God, but Jesus said, “You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.” QED.) That would be a good argument, actually, but I suppose we won’t see Teen Mania making it any time soon.
shannon-ashleysays:March 14, 2012 1:13 PMReply
I definitely did the jaw drop. As interns, we were taught that the ENTIRE year was ordained by God and that every life transformation event at the internship was designed to grow our faith and strength in God.
Those of us who were able to get by with NOT participating in ESOAL have carried shame with us for years after the internship. It was always at the very least implicitly pushed as something we HAD to do if we wanted to be OBEDIENT to God and ALLOW Him to work in our lives. And most of us had at least someone pushing it as much more, loudly proclaiming that we would be deficient in our walk with God if we refused to participate.
I never even imagined that anyone at TM would even try to say that everything we do there isn’t for “Eternal value”. Because every waking moment we were taught that doing things without eternal worth or value would make us weak and lazy.
“I was stretched by God to not take any supplements for my health at the very start of ESOAL. Nervous, because of a weak immune system, I still chose to trust Him and to rely on His strength because I knew that I had clearly heard His voice in this challenge.” –Isn’t this the description of a miracle? This is a variation of the “God doesn’t want me to take medicine made by man” and TM should know this is shaky ground. They have a bit of leeway by saying “supplements” rather than medication but this is still alarming.
a handlesays:March 14, 2012 5:11 PMReply
Hello, I was an intern and never did ESOAL. I never felt pressured to either. When someone would ask me “why not” I just told them I didn’t see the benefit in it at that point in my life. I never denied that this exercise could and does have significance and that it could be very beneficial for participants. I have never felt guilty about not doing it and very few of my intern friends seemed bothered by the fact that I didn’t do this voluntary challenge. I would not mind raising money to travel back to Texas someday and try out PEARL. No, Teen Mania does not charge you to participate in PEARL, but it does cost money to take time off of work and to travel to Texas. With that said, feel free to attack this post. Happy tearing downs!
Doug Duncansays:March 14, 2012 8:16 PMReply
Far from attacking you, a handle, I laud you for choosing “a handle” as your handle.
Anonymoussays:March 14, 2012 11:43 PMReply
alksfdj;lasdkjf;lsakdjf;lsakdjf
sorry. had to clear my throat. I need to go put my boots on as well. It’s getting pretty deep in here.
laynesays:March 15, 2012 9:10 AMReply
“I have never felt guilty about not doing it and very few of my intern friends seemed bothered by the fact that I didn’t do this voluntary challenge.”
When were you an intern?
a handlesays:March 15, 2012 9:26 AMReply
Layne, I was an intern at Teen Mania’s Honor Academy. I’m sorry it bothers people so much that I didn’t feel overwhelmed with pressure to partake in ESOAL. It may shock you even more to know that I cannot remember a single staff member who looked down upon my personal decision not to participate. If they did, they never indicated it to me. Sure most of the staff openly promoted the growing activity, but no one in any position above a couple of other interns seemed bothered by me NOT doing ESOAL.
Renaesays:March 15, 2012 9:40 AMReply
A handle,
I don’t see anyone being bothered by the fact that you didn’t feel pressured to do ESOAL. I had a friend during my year who chose not to participate and she never felt pressured for her decision either. But that doesn’t change the fact that there were people who DID feel pressured into doing it. Your experience doesn’t negate theirs, just as theirs doesn’t negate yours. The fact that some people escaped without abuse doesn’t mean the abuse didn’t happen to others.
I think Layne was just trying to ask what year you were an intern, not questioning whether or not you had been an intern at HA.
a handlesays:March 15, 2012 10:05 AMReply
Sorry, I misread the question. 2002
I think people “feel” pressured all of the time to do things in life. I think I had a very similar experience to others my intern year. I didn’t feel pressured, because I didn’t let it get to me. I definitely have a different definition of “abuse” than you probably do Renae. So, do you think TM does ESOAL for the sheer pleasure of abusing interns?
wanderersays:March 15, 2012 10:44 AMReply
If there was no pressure, why did you have to choose not to let “it” get to you?
Doug Duncansays:March 15, 2012 11:17 AMReply
I don’t think anyone has suggested that TM does ESOAL, or anything else, for the sheer pleasure of abusing the interns. Personally, I see ESOAL/PEARL as a small part of the entire program of thought reform that is the Honor Academy. Those who are in favor of this would probably call it “discipling.” Doubtless they see it as an effort on behalf of God to raise up people to spread His Word and to help bring back a generation from the brink of the abyss. Others might see it as a grandiose project of Ron Luce’s to make a difference in the world and thereby assure himself that he matters.
littlegraygirlsays:March 15, 2012 11:45 AMReply
Cute tag, a handle! 🙂
I don’t think ANYONE here thinks that ANYTHING the HA does is for the sheer pleasure of abusing interns. I think we can all agree that the vast majority of the leadership/staff have good intentions, but that their ideas and practices have turned out to be harmful for people. This blog points out those harmful aspects in hopes that they will be carefully examined and changed, with restitution made whenever reasonable.
But I realize that not everyone agrees with us that things like ESOAL are harmful. Heck….while in theory I think ESOAL it’s a bad idea, if I were completely honest with myself, I’d probably do it again. So it’s okay that you see things differently. It’s totally okay that you disagree, and your opinions, as long as they are respectful (which they have been), are welcome. We only ask that you extend the same courtesy to us and allow us to express our opinions as well. And that you would not insult us with your misrepresentation of us–in other words, the whole “happy tearing downs” thing is both untrue and totally counter-productive to further civilized dialogue.
For instance, where is this: “I’m sorry it bothers people so much that I didn’t feel overwhelmed with pressure. . .” coming from? Only one person even addressed that, and they did so with a neutral question. What I mean, I guess, is that I want to request that you please dial down your defensiveness, since no one is even attacking you.
Renaesays:March 15, 2012 12:03 PMReply
A handle,
I don’t think abuse needs to be malicious in intent to be abuse. I have no doubt that HA does ESOAL with absolutely good intentions–helping interns get closer to God–but the way they go about it is abusive in many people’s opinion, not to mention unbiblical. I think taking young, impressionable kids through well-documented brainwashing and thought reform techniques and telling them it will get them closer to God is spiritually abusive. There are lots of passages in the Bible that are very applicable to arguing against a program like this, including the one Eric posted earlier. He also often posts one about how contests of physical strength don’t equal righteousness (help me out Eric! I couldn’t find it on biblegateway). So to me, telling some kid that going through this program will help them someday if their child dies or they are struck by illness, or that by quitting (in the ESOAL sense) they are damaging their relationship with God and won’t have learned how to deal with hardship in life, is ludicrous and dangerous doctrine. I dealt with major guilt after stopping ESOAL in the middle because I was sure I had “quit” instead of “finishing.” In the moment of ringing out I was sure I had finished, but later I started to question myself and really beat myself up over it. It’s not the only thing that gave me a major spiritual guilt complex at HA, but it definitely contributed.
Also, if HA is so sure they’re not being abusive and see no problem with their program, then why are they backpedaling, changing their story, and presenting a different “face” of ESOAL/PEARL to the world than what they present to actual interns? Because when I went through ESOAL it was DEFINITELY supposed to be a Godly experience. That sure sounds like intent to deceive to me… and if they’re lying to make it sound “milder” than what it is or whatever then it also sounds like they at least recognize that people have legitimate complaints about it, but aren’t willing to change.
Carl Litchfieldsays:March 15, 2012 12:33 PMReply
A handle: Are you saying that it’s not abuse if the “abuser” doesn’t enjoy it? I can beat the crap out of people and demean them as human beings as long as I don’t like doing it?
I was an intern in 2002 as well. There was definite pressure to participate. I mean, they only mentioned ESOAL at every turn, constantly with the reminder that we should “consider” participating, pointing out what an “opportunity” it would be. That is pressure. I’m glad you were able to ignore it. Not many were.
Ericsays:March 15, 2012 2:23 PMReply
Renae: You’re probably thinking of Colossians 2:20-23–
“If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.”
These three things are an exact description of ESOAL / PEARL: “Self-made religion” (ESOAL is nowhere in the Bible or any Christian tradition), “self-abasement” (give up and die to yourself, B.A.R., etc.) and “severe treatment of the body” (obviously). According to Colossians, ESOAL is therefore “of no value,” spiritually speaking.
Also, we should note that there is in fact evidence that at least some ESOAL facilitators enjoy harassing interns.
a handlesays:March 15, 2012 4:46 PMReply
I didn’t say there was “no pressure” to participate in ESOAL. I said I didn’t feel pressured to. There was a lot of encouragement to participate. Of course there would be people promoting it, if this is an exercise they believe to be beneficial why wouldn’t they promote it? I think most of the pressure people may have felt would be from a performance mentality that comes from within, a fear of what their peers would think.
On another note: I agree with what Doug said at 11:17. PEARL is a very tiny portion of an entire year long program. I also agree that the Honor Academy has a focus on thought reform.
Romans 12:2 “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.”
I also agree that we who are in favor of the things Teen Mania Ministries are doing see it as “an effort on behalf of God to raise up people to spread His Word and to help bring back a generation from the brink of the abyss.” I do not only think it is an effort on behalf of God but in obedience to God. I don’t see why such efforts should be mocked.
Ericsays:March 15, 2012 10:26 PMReply
A handle: Thanks for your thoughts. A few points in response:
1. I discuss in my article on HA’s theology that the “performance mentality” is specifically taught by Dave Hasz. Is the pressure still beneficial if it comes from without?
2. Doug is using “thought reform” as a technical term that means something very different from letting the Holy Spirit renew your mind. Again, it’s coming from without rather than within. He can probably speak to it better than I can, but here’s one link that goes into detail: link
3. It’s only “obedience to God” if God told you to do it. Nothing like ESOAL / PEARL appears anywhere in the Bible. Worse, the Bible specifically contradicts its fundamental principles, as I discussed in my previous comment. I’d maintain that, by pressuring people to follow “self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body,” and “putting God to the test,” ESOAL is an act of direct disobedience to God.
Doug Duncansays:March 15, 2012 11:13 PMReply
a handle said: “I do not only think it is an effort on behalf of God but in obedience to God. I don’t see why such efforts should be mocked.”
People also fly airplanes into buildings as an act of obedience to God. People do not get a free pass to do whatever they want just by saying they are doing it in obedience to God.
Anonymoussays:March 15, 2012 11:28 PMReply
It also doesn’t say anything about putting up a blog in the bible. Or for that matter, it doesn’t say anything about the internet at all.Or Church buses, interstate systems, diesel fuel, hybrid cars, GPS, cell phones, etc.
Does that mean everything we do that’s not mentioned in the bible should be cast away?
(Not making an excuse FOR Esoal, but come on, that whole “it’s not in the bible” line gets old after awhile.)
Reductio Ad Adsurdum
Doug Duncansays:March 16, 2012 9:30 AMReply
I actually agree with your point, Reductio Ad Adsurdum, about the “it’s not found in the Bible” argument. Still, I think Eric’s argument from the passage in Colossians is valid. The militaristic attitude of ESOAL has little to do with the ethic of love and non-violence taught by the Jesus of the New Testament.
A profound issue that has been raised repeatedly by Eric and others on this blog is that Teen Mania seems to have missed, somehow, the true Spirit of the Gospel. The gamey—and sometimes even snarky—replies of TM’s defenders on this site do not help their case. If Teen Mania was truly producing disciples of the risen Christ, I would think we would see some of His grace in the manner of expression by those who claim to be his followers.
Just sayin’.
Anonymoussays:March 16, 2012 10:00 AMReply
i just spent a week on the campus of teen mania and have never been reassured that the entire place is of God. The moment I drove on campus I felt the holy spirit. I am not dismissing that hurts have happened but for our family it truly is the perfect choice for our son is there and our second son who will be going in two years. I am thankful that I was able to go and see what is going on there with my own eyes to remove any of the doubts that the RA community had raised in my heart and mind. God erased those while I was there and the spirit of peace took over. By the way…I choose anonymous because I am not technically savvy enough to get a name…have tried..dont know how…..so I will be anonymous13 not to be confused with any others….
Doug Duncansays:March 16, 2012 11:16 AMReply
anonymous13: You sound like a sincere person, so I want to say this very respectfully.
How do you know that the feeling you got while you were at the campus was really the Holy Spirit? A “good feeling” is kind of a subjective criterion for deciding if a movement is really of God, don’t you think?
As somebody who has studied cults extensively, I can tell you that all cultic movements produce that same feeling of the Holy Spirit. Mormonism is pretty much based on it. How do you know that charismatic Protestant Christianity is the right path if the Mormons are just as good—probably better—at manufacturing the feeling of the Holy Spirit? Roman Catholics have nearly 2000 years of experience with the Holy Spirit; don’t you think they probably know more about Him than a movement that started in the early 1900’s in Azusa, CA? Hundreds of little cultic quasi-Christian groups around the country claim every day that they are led by the Holy Spirit, often in opposite directions from one another.
Hopefully, you have a bit more to go on than the fact that you got a good feeling when you were in a group of like minded people. Muslims, get that, Hindus get that, Buddhists are actually way, way better at it than Christians. It is not sufficient evidence for deciding that a group is meritorious.
Ericsays:March 16, 2012 11:33 AMReply
Anon @11:28– I think you misread me (though I’m sure I could have said it more clearly). I’m not saying that we can’t do anything that isn’t in the Bible– that’s obviously flawed for the reasons you point out. Rather, if someone is going to say “We’re doing this out of obedience to God,” it would be helpful if they could point to somewhere that God actually said to do it. And, if the Bible actually said not to do it, or to do the opposite, that would make the “we’re obeying God” defense very suspect. God doesn’t contradict Himself.
Anonymoussays:March 16, 2012 12:02 PMReply
Doug:
I never said anything about a “good feeling”….I can certainly decipher for myself when the holy spirit speaks to me….I am just so glad to be free from the doubts that all of you are on here creating….anonymous13
Ericsays:March 16, 2012 1:14 PMReply
Anonymous13: I have to echo Doug’s concerns. The idea of “feeling the Holy Spirit” and “being free from doubt” is invoked by cults and abusive groups just as much (or more!) as it is used by genuine Christians. A friend of mine, another cult survivor, wrote an excellent post called The Manipulative Power of Peace. I recommend it highly.
Frankly, I’d be highly wary of any group that said, “Ignore your doubts, especially the ones from that website that points out the fact that we’ve often lied to people; kids have been hurt here but that’s OK because we have the Holy Spirit!” Listening to doubts can be a very healthy and reasonable thing to do. What if the Holy Spirit was the one giving you the doubts? Ignoring them could be quenching the Spirit. Even you say you are “not dismissing that hurts have happened”– if I were you, I wouldn’t want them to happen to my kids.
The Bible is pretty clear on this point as well:
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:10)
This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.” (Jeremiah 23:17)
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)
See the problem? Just because something looks godly, says the right words, fills you with a sense of hope and peace, or even makes you “hear the Spirit” does not prove it’s really of Jesus. We have to look at what Teen Mania really teaches to see whether it’s the Gospel.
Doug Duncansays:March 16, 2012 1:39 PMReply
Wow, Eric, that post on the “The Manipulative Power of Peace” is really good. I hope anonymous13 will take the time to read it.
wanderersays:March 16, 2012 2:15 PMReply
Wow, yes Eric…. that is an amazing article. Thank you for sharing it!
I was just remembering today how during one period in my leadership experience disapproved of I felt in a “Christian” group (in this instance it didn’t happen to be TM) until I yielded and confessed to a leader that I felt convicted of “rebellion”. (In hindsight I realize I was feeling internally conflicted by the environment, but rebellion was actually 0% of my problem). Suddenly a switch was flipped from being marginalized and ignored to being “love-bombed” with acceptance, because I had seen the light supposedly, and left behind my rebellion.
All this because I was following the “peace”.
shannon-ashleysays:March 16, 2012 3:12 PMReply
I’m always amazed by how condescending people can be when expressing their opinion that TM is not an abusive place. And every time I read a comment that insinuates that only weak minded people feel they were abused, I find myself momentarily believing the TM lies again.
Someone said they were an intern in 2002 and never felt pressure to do ESOAL. That’s great. I was an intern 2000-2001 and I constantly felt the pressure. Then again, it was also traumatic for me to deal with the “fight or flight” stress of gauntlet, unreached people lte, and random drills in the middle of the night. But I’m now at a point where I cannot continue to pretend that being called a loser, wimp, quitter etc. was somehow edifying to me and my walk with God. And it’s obvious to me that we have a problem when TM staff suddenly tries to say that ESOAL/PEARL is not a spiritual exercise. Somebody is lying.
Any parent who has their child at TM or considering TM should take these issues seriously. They may very well wish a decade later that you had never let them go.
Anonymoussays:March 16, 2012 4:03 PMReply
my son chose on his own to not participate in pearl….he felt that he just didnt need to do it…he felt no pressure to participate and was not shunned in any way for not participating….it was completely his free choice…anon13
Green girlsays:March 16, 2012 7:01 PMReply
I wa san intern in 2000-2001 and I didn’t participate either. I volunteered to travel to the ATF that weekend to avoid being on campus when everyone else was participating and I chose not to. My core was incredibly loving and supportive, but most of the other staff and interns were not. Everyone’s experience is different Anonymous, and it is great that your son does not feel pressured. Please do not take it to mean that just because he is having a good experience, the claims of abuse are invalid. I was not abused, but I certainly witnessed some in my two years. It is wrong, and it is being covered up by so many.
Anonymoussays:March 16, 2012 9:14 PMReply
i have clearly stated on many occassions that i believe that hurts happened…i dont dispute that people have been hurt…it just has been an awesome experience for my family….my continual hope is that things have improved and leadership at all levels have learned from past experiences…i can only go on our own experience…anon13
Anonymoussays:March 16, 2012 9:43 PMReply
Also, TM has been forced into making some changes from esoal to pearl due to some of the media coverage. I can believe it that a current intern may not have felt pressured into participating. As Dave Hasz loves to grandly point out the changes they’ve made to the program, it’s clear that some aspects are kinder and gentler than ten years ago. I suspect however, that these are surface changes like cleaning the outside of a cup). And I fear that the lies of TM are becoming even more hidden and insidious. TM has had opportunity after another to deal with accusations in a mature and sincere manner but they have continued to lie and point fingers back at their victims.
Doug Duncansays:March 17, 2012 11:12 AMReply
Anon 9:43–are you the same as anon13?
Doug Duncansays:March 17, 2012 11:21 AMReply
It is easy to post as something other than “anonymous.” All you have to do is look below the text box and find where it says “Comment as:” There is a box where the words “Select profile…” are ghosted. To the right of that box is a pull down arrow. If you click that arrow, and number of options present themselves. Click on the one that says Name/URL, and a set of boxes will come up for you to fill in your name and URL. You can ignore the URL one and just fill in the name box with the one you want to use. Obviously, you do not have to use your real name if you don’t want people to know who you are, so feel free to come up with something whimsical.
Anonymoussays:March 17, 2012 11:51 AMReply
no….anon13
Doug Duncansays:March 17, 2012 10:01 PMReply
Anon13: I can certainly decipher for myself when the holy spirit speaks to me
me: How are you able to do that?
Reductio Ad Absurdumsays:March 18, 2012 1:29 AMReply
Well, you can call me RAA for short.
Doug,
What are your credentials? Would any of your colleagues testify to what you say? How can we be assured you’re really a cult expert?
You’ll need to come up with some proof that’s tangible and verifiable.
I think you’re just a naysayer in general and no matter what you see or hear, you’re determined to use TMM as a springboard for your own cause and recognition.
shannon-ashleysays:March 18, 2012 7:57 AMReply
RAA,
This site contains articles about cults–the description/definition/symptoms of cults. They show that their are other professionals in agreement with Doug and Wendy. I do not for a second believe that either Doug or Wendy are trying to use the TMM situation for their own gain. They were the victims of a cult themselves, so on a very personal level they understand the damage and consequences of spiritual abuse.
Additionally, the position of speaking out against the abuse of TM is an unpopular one. Many fellow Christians stand in judgement of us and pick apart every single word we choose. In my experience it is difficult for non-Christians to understand how anyone could “fall” victim to a cult at all. There is still such a stigma attached to the concept–it’s very hard for me to see the “payoff” or possible outcome of fame for being attached to this cause.
It really shouldn’t take a health professional to say that the actions of TM are wrong. Manipulation is wrong, abuse is wrong even when done in the name of God, and we should have a safe place to discuss what happened to us. And what is the point in trying to discredit Doug or demand proof from him? Are you trying to shift the issue or somehow invalidate the recovering alumni on this forum?
So while we’re at it RAA, can you please tell me, what are the credentials of TM leadership? Where is the proof on Ron Luce and Dave Hasz’s side? Are you sure they are not using TM and a host of young people for their own personal gain?
inagreementsays:March 18, 2012 9:25 AMReply
I agree with RAA
RAAsays:March 18, 2012 11:16 AMReply
Well, Shannon Ashley, TMM does not have the burden of proof nor the burden of support. I’m not calling into question whether or not people have been mistreated, I’m calling into question whether or not TMM is a cult, and whether or not Doug and his posse are credible.
As it’s your side that’s making these claims, you have the burden of support.
Support can not simply be a bunch of people who have been hurt. That’s one piece of the evidence. We need proof that Doug and his posse know what they’re talking about, as well as secondary and tertiary information in addition to testimonies.
RAAsays:March 18, 2012 11:17 AMReply
In addition, most of the testimonies on this website are unverifiable in the least. (There is ALWAYS two sides to every story)
Recovering Alumnisays:March 18, 2012 1:43 PMReply
RAA – your comments embody everything about teen mania that makes me furious. This post is about tm BLATANTLY lying and yet. U prefer to call into question the integrity of the victims and their advocates. Shannons comment was spot on. Is tm that exploits and profits from interns. And you enable them? It makes me sick.
Clearly you cant understand basic logic and factss so please take your offensive and ignorant comments elsewhere.
Recovering Alumnisays:March 18, 2012 1:44 PMReply
Please excuse typos from phone
Carl Litchfieldsays:March 18, 2012 1:52 PMReply
RAA
First of all, this is not a court of law. I hate to tell you this, but until an actual court appearance before a judge, everything is guilty until proven innocent. Child Protective Services is *required*, by law, to investigate every accusation of abuse, during which the accused must prove that they are not being abusive. Police are *required*, by law, to investigate any report of a crime. In that process, the police eliminate suspects by proving their innocence.
When I was in high school, I participated in a couple of different programs that placed me in charge of other teenagers. My denomination required that I attend seminars on my responsibilities, including how to handle reports of abuse. The one thing I recall clearly from those seminars is that when confronted with a report of abuse or misconduct of any kind, I was obligated to believe the VICTIM over the alleged abuser.
Even if we were in a court of law, I would say that statements from 70 or more people is more than enough to establish a pattern of behavior. And as stated in this post, http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2012/02/former-director-of-marketing-teen-mania.html, a former marketing director stated clearly, in a public setting, “Sadly I was unable to defend much of the negative because it actually happened.” While this doesn’t verify any specific statement, it does support the arguments as a whole.
Regardless of where the burden of proof lies in this argument, the question of Teen Mania’s credentials is perfectly valid. Teenagers are placed in their care every year for a variety of events and activities. The statements on this blog raise reasonable questions concerning a child/teen’s health, safety and well being while participating in Teen Mania events.
I cannot answer the question of Doug or Wendy’s credentials. I trust them because the RA community trusts them. I have little doubt in my mind that this is exactly why you *don’t* trust them.
So, while we’re on the subject, RAA, what are your credentials? How do you know/understand the burden of proof? Are you a lawyer, a criminal investigator, or perhaps a police officer? If Doug, or anyone else for that matter, were to list their credentials, how would you verify their statements?
Doug Duncansays:March 18, 2012 3:26 PMReply
RAA is engaging in a classic ad hominem argument, which is used to divert attention from the real issue. This is often seen in cults. In fact, my former cult leader was a master at it.
I am not the subject of this blog—Teen Mania is. The fact that you compelled to go on offense suggests that a part of you knows that Teen Mania and its behavior is indefensible.
Truth68says:March 18, 2012 6:27 PMReply
You are right on Doug- ad hominem. “Shoot the messenger”- the more you can put that one who is delivering the message in a bad light the more you cast doubt in other peoples minds.
Well, it ain’t going to work this time. This stuff is getting out and more are seeing what TM is all about.
truthinlovesays:March 18, 2012 10:10 PMReply
Doug D., I dont know if you or RA have thought about it, but I think a post on ‘groupthink’ would be a good idea: in its relation to TM/HA. My understanding of it has allowed me realize how good intentions may go awry.
Doug Duncansays:March 18, 2012 10:29 PMReply
truthinlove, I read a fantastic little book recently about this recently: The Tyranny of the Group, by Andrew Malcolm.
RAAsays:March 18, 2012 11:29 PMReply
No, it’s not ad hominy. I don’t even like corn. Doug, RA, Carl, and the rest of the group, you’re all just so biased that you can’t even let yourselves think clearly.
You automatically dismiss anybody who shows any support or arguments for TMM as brainwashed elite extremists.
Carl, you’re right. This isn’t a court of law. Again, that’s just like using the “its’ not in the bible” argument. It’s pointless.
To quote you, Carl, you say you believe Doug and his posse is legit because RA and the community accept him?
But yet you all bash anybody in the TMM world for liking Ron and Dave for the same reason? Because they’re accepted by their peers?
Let me speak into this a little bit, the reason you only see half cocked TM supporters here that offer slanted unfounded and sometimes irrational support for TMM is because you attract the very same type of people that you project yourselves to be.
All of the higher level thinkers on both sides of the issue won’t take time to argue on a blog or listen to unverifiable testimonies.
Yes, I said high level thinkers on BOTH sides. There are people out there who despise TMM way more than the RA community does, yet they don’t stoop so low as to offer a faceless blog.
RA, I’m truly sorry that I physically upset you earlier. I’m truly sorry that I reminded you so of everything you hate at TMM. It wasn’t my intention to do so. My intention is to get you all to see how biased and unfounded you are.
You could build a strong case against TMM if you’d just legitimize your methods and broaden your sources of professional inputs.
My guess it the reason you do neither is because it isn’t possible.
reductio-ad-absays:March 18, 2012 11:48 PMReply
The above comments were made will all due respect, of course.
Shannon-Ashleysays:March 19, 2012 7:52 AMReply
Of course you mean no disrespect. I should be able to hear your respectful tone even even from my “biased and ungrounded” position.
It’s interesting to me that you seem to have nothing to say about the actual topic of this post Cindy’s cover up).
Personally I have had lengthy email discussions with both Dave and Heath. And they have not once countered the validity of my story. They instead have tried to convince me that the program has changed and that everything is ok because they didn’t intend to hurt me. They have tried to spin the story in their favor, they have tried to twist my words, they have tried to guilt me into forgetting everything. But they’ve NEVER said my testimony is untrue. Interacting as you’d think my “biased” story could be easily refuted if it was so wrong.
You are definitely wrong in saying that since we haven’t put together real legal action against TM that proves we have nothing. Abuse at the hands of a religious group isn’t easy to fight. There are a lot factors to this including a statute of limitations. And spiritual abuse is particularly hard to build a case as it is not well understood or identified. That doesn’t mean the victims should shut up.
I dont know what you are saying we project ourselves to be. There are all different types of people on this forum. I’m a Christian despite my TM experience. I have found many churches unaffiliated with TM in my state who specifically avoid the ministry because of issues they sensed even prior to the RA site. Many other Christians know that something is wrong in Garden Valley, even if they dont get how bad it is.
I have confidence that if we are as wrong as you say, there would be no need for your personal attacks and avoidance of the actual post topic.
Shannon-Ashleysays:March 19, 2012 8:06 AMReply
Oh, I do not bash everyone who supports TM. I was an intern myself who supported TM for many years after my HA graduation. I still know people from my intern year who love TM and Ron and Dave. As time passes however, that margin gets thinner because people change their minds about the program since they saw the abuse when they were there even if they dont identify as a victim now.
Ericsays:March 19, 2012 10:42 AMReply
RAA: “No, it’s not ad hominy. I don’t even like corn.”
That’s nearly enough right there to convince me you’re a troll (it would be hard for anyone to be so ignorant about simple logic despite naming yourself after a logical term). But on the off chance you’re not, here’s a good introduction to the ad hominem fallacy, for which your comments serve as a remarkably pungent example.
Quote: The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
The question this post presents is: Based on the evidence above, did Teen Mania’s employees lie about the nature of PEARL, or did they not?
The fact that you are more eager to make wild speculations about the commenters’ “bias” and “credentials” than to focus on that simple yes or no question tells any intelligent reader all they need to know. Come back once you’ve learned how to make logical, evidence-based arguments rather than wearying us with yet more “slanted unfounded and sometimes irrational support for TMM.”
reductio-ad-absays:March 19, 2012 12:29 PMReply
Okay, Eric. I forgot that since you’re so logically minded that you wouldn’t get a joke. I was making fun of Doug with the hominy remark.
There, I said it.
I also figured by now that you and the rest of the RA community would know my answer to your question. You say yes,I say no.
There, I said it.
Wild speculations? That’s the pot calling the kettle black now isn’t it?
Need any more clarification, Eric? Or can we move on to more meat and potatoes?
RAA
Recovering Alumnisays:March 19, 2012 1:11 PMReply
Dear absurd one – please supply facts for ur assertions or i will no longer publish your victim blaming and abuse enabling comments. This is ur final warning
reductio-ad-absays:March 19, 2012 2:45 PMReplyThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Ericsays:March 19, 2012 3:06 PMReply
RAA: I like jokes when they’re funny.
The fact that you deflect Doug’s observation that your attacks are transparently ad hominem by “making fun of” him says it all. There’s no point trying to have a constructive dialogue when that’s your mindset– as we’ve repeatedly found with TM supporters and leadership.
Your disagreement that “there is there no good fruit that comes from TM” might carry more weight if it wasn’t accompanied by your fist-shaking threats, mockery, victim-blaming, blustering antagonism, and willful unreason. That this is the fruit of TM I can see; but where’s the good part?
If Honor Academy was really filled with the Holy Spirit, surely its defenders would fully exemplify the Fruit of the Spirit. Anon13 and other Teen Mania supporters, please take note.
Truth68says:March 19, 2012 4:03 PMReply
Hmmm…the Holy Spirit- boy, that is a part of the Trinity we have completely disregarded in the Christian arena today.
I have noticed, Eric, that what seems to be missing in many of the churches and Christian organizations today is vital fundamental basics of Christianity 101- Salvation, His grace, the Holy Spirit (filled with the Spirit); fruits of the Spirit, love, boasting in Christ (not oneself); truth, the armor of God, discernment and wisdom, righteousness, sinner saved and forgiven, the beatitudes, good old fashioned Bible stories of David and Goliath; hope and faith and joy.
The simplicity of Jesus Christ is like living water- refreshing to the soul.
reductio-ad-absays:March 19, 2012 6:19 PMReply
Okay, RA,
It’s on like donkey kong.
You’ll hear more from me within a week or two.
Doug Duncansays:March 19, 2012 8:12 PMReply
Whenever I read a post from reductio-ad-ab I feel like I need to go take a shower.
Katysays:March 19, 2012 8:31 PMReply
“Okay, RA,
It’s on like donkey kong.
You’ll hear more from me within a week or two”
@Absurd one…is that the next time you get your weekend pass??
reductio-ad-absays:March 19, 2012 9:07 PMReplyThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
WhyDoIStillComeHeresays:March 19, 2012 9:35 PMReply
Ok, so….maybe that person who posted that they experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit wasn’t making a relevant comment, per se, but…who the HECK do you guys think you are to question that individual’s relationship with God? SERIOUSLY? If it was someone who was saying they’d felt something evil when standing in the same room as Ron, or they’d left campus and felt the presence of God descend on their car, would you be questioning their ability/discernment?
It strikes me as WAY out of line to suggest you know better than someone else what they experienced.
Anon13 who made that comment…I have NO love whatsoever for TM, but there were times that I also felt God’s presence during my time in GV. And there were people that I don’t think should be in leadership through whom God spoke to me, so…just remember that the veil was rent so that you could approach the throne on your own, without the need for a high priest, and no one on earth can tell you whether you did or didn’t hear from God.
wanderersays:March 19, 2012 9:35 PMReply
Doug, I’d also like to echo these words of affirmation (though my tone is not sarcastic). I find your questions very helpful & insightful. I wish I had someone asking me hard questions like yours when I was diving in headfirst because it “felt” like God.
Ericsays:March 19, 2012 10:42 PMReply
@WhyDoIStillComeHere: Reading the comments carefully, I don’t see anyone questioning Anon13’s relationship with God. However, I do see lots of people (yourself among them) questioning Teen Mania’s relationship with God. I think there are excellent grounds to do so (they preach a false Gospel, for one thing). Unless the Holy Spirit has suddenly started contradicting Himself, there is plenty of reason to advise Anon13 to take a harder look and not just push all caution aside. According to the Bible, not everything that claims to be from God is the Holy Spirit. In fact we’re all commanded to “Test the spirits to see whether they are from God” (1 John 4:1). That’s all we’re saying.
@Absurd One: If TM was really so great, it wouldn’t need online bullies to stick up for it. In fact, if TM was really so great, online bullies wouldn’t want to stick up for it. However, your persecution proves RA and Doug are doing a great work! Thanks for the validation.
Mikesays:March 20, 2012 12:30 AMReply
reductio-ad-ab: Did Teen Mania lie about PEARL/ESOAL or didn’t they?
…And while we’re getting back to the actual subject of the post, why don’t you tell me where Cindy gets the audacity to slander Mica and this blog in a decidedly mean-spirited and unscriptural comment in which she also asserts that Mica has repeatedly expressed a desire to “see Teen Mania shut down”…a deliberate and desperate untruth concocted and uttered in the hopes that people will be too lazy to actually oh, I dunno, read this blog.
Between her blatant lies and your inability to logically or helpfully engage in any Christlike, helpful or encouraging talk, opting instead to wag an accusing finger at anyone questioning your precious little club, I’m reminded of why this unchecked spiritual abuse continues to this day at TM. Because of people like you.
You are every superficial head-up-his-own-ass intern who would publicly rebuke a person for owning a Darth Maul inflatable chair because it looks “demonic” (yes, this did happen to me). You are every stuck-up, arrogant, works-based, judgmental pharisee looking down on the “less spiritual” in Garden Valley who have the temerity to step on the hem of your white linen robes. Unfortunately, you’re also a doctrinal moron who’s bought into the worst kind of legalistic, works based, devoid of intelligent thought or reason theology that Teen Mania spends literally millions of dollars to proliferate.
What’s sad is, after a few years, when you’re distanced yourself away from TM and their ilk, allowed your head to deflate, and maybe read a book or two on theology by someone *other* than Ron Luce, you’re going to be horrified at just how un-Christlike your comments and actions and attitudes were. And you’ll be back here, just like so many of us, trying as hard as we know how to make Ron and Dave and Heath and anyone else listen to us. Trying to actually change the Honor Academy so *everyone* who goes can meet the Lord there, not just the ones who overlook or just don’t mind the elitism, stress and superficiality of a faith walked out by doing crunches at 6am every morning and having a mandated quiet time.
That’s what we’re doing here. We’re not trying to discredit or shut down Teen Mania. We’re not bringing up these concerns because we’re mean. We’ve been hurt. We *know* that people are still being hurt. We now know the ones in charge don’t care as long as the money keeps flowing in. So we’re fighting.
We may accomplish nothing more than to simply to be a comfort to each other and to all the other interns who come out of Garden Valley feeling useless and alone, but the only thing you have accomplished with your uncharitable and altogether ignorant speech is simply to remind us exactly what is wrong with Teen Mania. Congrats.
Katydidsays:March 20, 2012 8:07 AMReply
@Mike.Very.well.said.
laynesays:March 20, 2012 12:14 PMReply
I’d actually like TM and all of it’s attached ministries to close their doors, but that’s my very own personal opinion and while I am part of the RA community, I speak only for myself in this.
To bring it back to the topic at hand, I believe Cindy has lied or purposfully misled the public in order to accomplish what ever crazy-ass goal TM has set her to. She pretended to be an intern. Seriously, y’all, what was that all about?
Anonymoussays:March 20, 2012 2:45 PMReply
I frankly wish yall would just hire a lawyer and file a class action lawsuit. Get it over with and then when it is all thrown out of court you can be done with all this and heal and move on.
LAWYERsays:March 20, 2012 3:03 PMReply
ANONYMOUS:
Whereas on the 20th of March, 2012, you did with malice aforethought commit to electronic media a Christianese Cliche known in the state of reality to be glib, offensive, insulting, trite, predictable, banal, condescending, unoriginal, tiresome, supercilious, and otherwise characteristic of the self-styled ministry organization hereinafter known as TEEN MANIA, to wit, “heal and move on,”
It is the sentence of this court that you be taken from here to a place of worship, where you shall have Dave Hasz quotes read at you until you are convinced of the error of your ways. And may God have mercy on your soul.
(signed)
LAWYER
B.S., I.P.O.T., H.E.L.N., etc.
Shannon-ashleysays:March 20, 2012 5:04 PMReply
Seriously anonymous, I wish you’d quit making irrelevant comments. Legitimate cases of abuse are thrown out all the time for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with the validity of the allegations. That doesn’t make an alleged abuser in the right.
When I hear such comments, I’m amazed I still believe in a loving God. People like yourself speak so much but seem unable to actually say something Christ-like.
If this blog bothers you so much, you should probably get over it and move on too. But dont worry. I hear moving on is easy for heartless, loveless people!
Mikesays:March 21, 2012 12:38 AMReply
@LAWYER: So…much….win.
Anonymoussays:March 21, 2012 1:24 PMReply
You guys are so childish. You all quite frankly, deserve to wallow in your own self pity.
I, for one, have never been hurt by TMM, however I have been deeply hurt by individuals at TMM. I could name names and give examples but that doesn’t help. I’d feel like I’m beating a dead horse, and you guys do a well enough job of that.
I had grandiose plans to create a facebook page and try to point our your fallacies, but y’all are just as good as bunch of Jehova Witness’s that show up on my porch. No matter what sound logic and evidence is offered, you talk in circles and immediately dismiss any input from a reasonable, healed person.
Some of the things I said earlier you picked apart, and, perhaps some of that was my fault. I misspoke or didn’t get my point across clearly enough and you misunderstood me. But rather than give me another chance, y’all cast me in the pot with the rest of the trolls and accused me of terrible things (Mike)
I have completely overcome the hurts I’ve experienced at TMM, and believe it or not, it’s easier to do that RA makes it out to be. It’s called grace, mercy, and perspective.
It’s. Not. That. Hard. People.
Y’all have missed opportunities for healing. Your hurts are valid and it’s not your fault. What is your fault, is not being able to recognize healing opportunities that come along. Bitching on a website will only take you so far.
RAA
Recovering Alumnisays:March 21, 2012 1:34 PMReply
According to my sitemeter, RAA is posting from Lindale….
Recovering Alumnisays:March 21, 2012 2:00 PMReply
RAA – You just spent 38 minutes and 40 seconds of your life writing derogatory comments on this blog…guess that is what you learned at Teen Mania.
That redheaded onesays:March 21, 2012 2:10 PMReply
Who says some of us aren’t healed and are trying to help others to healing at least that’s how I see a grand majority of those of us who are here. We send love to each other treat each other like family and help each other through hurts and trials. You have learned to taunt and hate by your comments RAA we have learned to love and treat all with dignity and respect. I wonder which were Christ here he would be more approving of. Oh wait I just have to look at his ministry to see which he did!
Anonymoussays:March 21, 2012 2:15 PMReply
My connections with TM are very limited. I’ve never been to HA, or even heard of ESOAL until recently. I was active in my church youth group in the late 90’s/early 00’s, and went to a couple of ATF’s. I thought those events were awesome, and felt closer to God for them. I started following this site a while back after I saw it mentioned on another person’s blog, and noticed the affiliation with Aquire the Fire. I say all that just so you all know that I have no real affiliations one way or another.
I do, however, support RA in their attempts at healing, confronting TM and its leadership, trying to spread the word about their misdeeds, and trying to bring about change. From reading some of the stories, and seeing the false doctrines that TM propogates, I can see how many of you were hurt and are grieving.
I can empathize with your plight because I have seen first hand how emotional and spiritual abuse can affect a person. Without going into details, for the past few years, my wife has been suffering from emotional and spiritual abuse at the hands of her own parents. I’ve seen many similarities in things that are parents have said and things that TM. THey claimed to have her best interest at heart, and to be following Christian, biblical principles, but they were really following distortions of scripture, much like TM does. The irony is that they reaised her with excellent values and Christian beliefs, and from what my wife says, were once good Christian people themselves. Saying you are doing something in the name of God or based on biblical principles does not automatically make you right. And doing somethings well does not excuse doing other things wrong.
I’m very sorry so many of you experienced the hurt that you did, and I’m sorry that there are people that come here and continue the verbal abuse with some of the comments that they make. I just thought you’d like to know that you do have support and sympathy even from people without a dog in the fight.
God bless,
Joe
shannon-ashleysays:March 21, 2012 2:34 PMReply
“You guys are so childish. You all quite frankly, deserve to wallow in your own self pity.”
Does this really sound like a reasonable, healed person? The reason you are being cast into the pot with trolls is because you are resorting to ridicule and making jokes at the expense of hurting people.
It’s great that you feel you are fine with everything that happened at TMM. But that’s you. You do not know what any of us have been through as individuals. You don’t know the conversations some of us have had with Ron and Dave and Heath and other TMM staff.
It’s not your right to dictate how long someone takes to heal. And you’re making things harder for the people here who are seriously depressed and suicidal by picking at their wounds. Myself included. You say that we have missed opportunities for healing because you think we should be quiet. Seriously, what would make you happy?
You obviously get something out of this or why would you continue to post here? Is it that important for you to prove your point or do you just enjoy tormenting others?
Enjoy continuing to act as Teen Mania’s pawn. Your attitude and treatment of God’s children continues their legacy of abuse.
shannon-ashleysays:March 21, 2012 2:51 PMReply
Joe, thank you.
Doug Duncansays:March 21, 2012 4:21 PMReply
RAA,
There are a lot of people in this community, and each of them is in a unique place in terms of their healing process. Personally, I got over my own hurts a long time ago, but I still get angry when I see people abusing others in the name of God. I kind of think God does not like it, either. Why is it that you seem to enjoy it so much?
Mikesays:March 21, 2012 4:25 PMReply
RAA, What terrible things exactly did I accuse you of? I never claimed that you did anything. I simply made my own judgement of your character (or lack thereof) based on the comments you posted in this thread.
In case you’re wondering, nothing you’ve said in response to my post has served to assuage that original estimation.
So what “sound logic” were you planning on using to make your case? What fallacies do our stories and our feelings fall under? You’re entire case seems to be a rather long and obnoxious version of the same “get over it” rhetoric we hear from every other TMM mouthpiece who finds there way here when they’re off campus and using the internet and now you’ve graduated to painting yourself as the victim…congratulations, man. You’ll do well in Garden Valley.
And incidentally, who said we’re all wallowing in our self misery? As I type this I’m sitting with my Arby’s three cheese and bacon and a stack of curly fries, in my nice apartment with a view of the mountains waiting for my beautiful wife to get home. My life is pretty spectacular and I’m thanking the Lord every day for it. I don’t lose any sleep over the way I was treated at TMM, but I do take their faulty doctrine, abusive practices and power abuses seriously. More seriously than to nonchalantly simple tell a group of victims of that abuse to get over it.
If you sir, really are such an expert on healing, then why are your comments so short on the “Grace, Mercy and Perspective” that you seem so keen to have us engage in? You are trivializing the legitimate concerns of good people who have been hurt by the “leaders” you’re so keen to defend. We *have* forgiven TMM for their hurtful actions, we *have* moved on with our lives. That doesn’t mean we’re content to sit by while TMM churns out class after class, year after year of people either paralyzed with guilt at not being good enough or puffed with pride at their own self aggrandizing “holyness”.
TM gets the gospel wrong, and that is more than enough reason to speak out against them. One day you’ll learn that. In the meantime, why don’t you take your own advice, get past this conversation (in which you’ve only proven your own ignorance and personal bias), leave Garden Valley and develop a few of your own opinions. Believe me TMM doesn’t need yet another spokesperson here blindly repeating the company line. Trust me, by now we all have it memorized.
Ericsays:March 21, 2012 4:30 PMReply
@Absurd One–
Protip 1: If you want to preach about “grace, mercy, and perspective,” it’s much more convincing if you practice it.
Protip 2: Reasonable, healed people tend to let their words and actions speak for themselves, rather than having to explain how grandiosely reasonable they’re being.
Protip 3: If you didn’t like it when individuals from TMM “deeply hurt” you, then quit being an individual from TMM who hurts others.
Protip 4: Don’t you think there might be a reason that TMM attracts so many “individuals” who “deeply hurt” people like you and most of the commenters? Surely there’s a common factor in all those experiences.
Protip 5: If you don’t like it when people “miss opportunities for healing,” then don’t go around insulting people on a recovery website.
Shannon Kishsays:March 21, 2012 10:13 PMReply
RAA, et al:
I heard a wonderful and truthful thing at the Child Abuse Symposium I have been at this week. Trauma is unique and individual. What I find traumatic may not be traumatic to someone else.. For example, when I was a teenager, and my mentor, and a female, and I were talking at her house and somehow the conversation led to talking about her buttocks being ticklish.. I didn’t understand it so she touched my buttocks to show me it was ticklish.
Here’s the thing…. That experience wasn’t traumatic for me, but I worked with a child who experienced something very similar and it was very traumatic for her..
Is she crazy or over reacting or not letting go because her experience was traumatic? He’ll no!
We all experience things differently and our prior experiences shape how we experience new experiences. So, RAA, while I can appreciate and understand that you have been able to move on from your hurts and experience….not all of us are in that place.. Healing happens very differently for everyone, and including how long it takes, and how complicated it us, and how difficult it is, but etc..
Jessicasays:March 22, 2012 12:35 PMReply
“Support can not simply be a bunch of people who have been hurt. That’s one piece of the evidence. We need proof that Doug and his posse know what they’re talking about, as well as secondary and tertiary information in addition to testimonies.”
So abuse is only abuse if it can be proven? Classy. As far as secondary and tertiary information, have you actually read RA’s posts – her communications with Ron and Dave, her detailed documenting of very damaging HA teachings? Have you seen any of the numerous exposes and documentaries done? What do they have to do, abuse interns on camera? OH WAIT! They already did (reference to the Mind Over Mania documentary…)
“You automatically dismiss anybody who shows any support or arguments for TMM as brainwashed elite extremists.”
False. RA publishes pro-TM comments provided they do not violate the comment policy, and even publishes many that do (such as yours). She and the rest of the community may disagree, but people who have come onto these forums to respectfully disagree (those commenters that don’t show respect should not be surprised not to receive any in return) have, as far as I know, always gotten the same in kind. (Feel free to show me otherwise if a respectful pro-TMer has been treated rudely here, but I haven’t seen it.)
“All of the higher level thinkers on both sides of the issue won’t take time to argue on a blog or listen to unverifiable testimonies.”
First of all, again we are back to “unverifiable testimonies.” Judges rule in favor of the abused every day based on testimonies and no tangible proof. Second, who are the higher level thinkers on the TM side of the issue that aren’t arguing on a blog? Because Ron may not be on here, but he has made numerous attempts to discredit RA and have this blog shut down.
“It’s. Not. That. Hard. People.”
…Wow. I absolutely cannot respond to this in a respectful manner, so I’m just going to leave it.
Doug Duncansays:March 22, 2012 5:17 PMReply
Jessica said, “Because Ron may not be on here, but he has made numerous attempts to discredit RA and have this blog shut down.”
I don’t see any evidence that Ron is a “higher level thinker,” or even much of a thinker at all. To be fair, I haven’t read his books, but I don’t have the sense that they are like Kierkegaard, or anything like that.
Anonymoussays:March 22, 2012 7:16 PMReply
To quote Ron, whoever speaks the loudest gets to shape the culture–he’s definitely got the screaming thing down. It’s all mob mentality by TM…..
Shannon-ashley
Jessicasays:March 25, 2012 10:47 PMReply
Lol…Good point, Doug. I wrote that because I wasn’t sure who the pro-TM “higher-level thinkers” were that RAA was referring to, but didn’t want to imply that there weren’t any or anything like that. So I went with the “higher level” members of the TM organization.
Ericsays:March 27, 2012 4:46 PMReply
“…but didn’t want to imply that there weren’t any or anything like that….”
The “endorsements” on the TM website (aside from several alumni, parents, board members, and hilariously, one guy who doesn’t even mention TM in his quote) currently include Hank Hanegraaf, Myles Munroe, and Pat Robertson.
Just so we have that straight: Pat freakin’ Robertson endorses Teen Mania, and Teen Mania thinks it make them look good to cite him on their website.
Others on record supporting TMM include Ted Haggard, Rick Santorum, and Benny Hinn.
If these are the “higher-level thinkers” we’re talking about…. Well, I suppose Noam Chomsky, Alvin Plantinga, N.T. Wright, and Stephen Hawking might have just been unavailable for comment….
Jessicasays:March 28, 2012 8:47 AMReply
“If these are the “higher-level thinkers” we’re talking about…. Well, I suppose Noam Chomsky, Alvin Plantinga, N.T. Wright, and Stephen Hawking might have just been unavailable for comment….”
Ha! ‘Tis probably the case.
“hilariously, one guy who doesn’t even mention TM in his quote”
That can’t be!…*checks website*…oh. Oh, it is. Not the most resounding endorsement, is it?
Anonymoussays:April 5, 2012 10:07 AMReply
Haven’t seen any new topics or posts lately….whats up?
Recovering Alumnisays:April 5, 2012 11:37 AMReply
Another true story coming on Monday…
Anonymoussays:April 26, 2012 5:04 PMReply
I pray for each one of you…. that forgiveness would abound in your hearts and that you would be able to lay down your offense just as Christ did for each one of us. Its all about Him…not us!! Lets keep some perspective here…we are to be the hands and feet…Go out and be that to a hurting world and move on from this place of hurt…hand it over to God and He alone can give you the ability to forgive so that you can also be forgiven.
wanderersays:April 26, 2012 6:10 PMReply
Anon,
Thank you for your excellent example of a person who is able to memorize & regurgitate Christianeze. That must have come in handy while taking tests in school or being a good performer in church.
You do realize you’re not representing the actual heart of Christ, though, right?
Anonymoussays:April 28, 2012 12:07 AMReply
oh, oh, teach us, wandererere, teach us! We can’t wait for your expogaletical exposition on the text!
Jessicasays:April 30, 2012 5:43 PMReply
“Go out and be that to a hurting world”
That’s exactly what RA and most of the members here are trying to do 🙂
Also, if Anon 12:07 and Anon 5:04 are the same person, those certainly seem to be two very different attitudes. Wanderer is a hurting person too. If not, apologies to 5:04.
quizicalsays:May 1, 2012 5:31 PMReply
Doug: are you a Christian? im honestly curious because just glancing through these post ive noticed you made a comment saying something along the lines of “people also fly planes into buildings in the name of God”. then later you show….what i hope is heart felt worry toward a guy who said he “felt” the Holy Spirit…..im just curious. i know as a Christian i hear people in my church or in my life talking about how they have heard God speak, seen visions, “Felt” Him come closer…things like that….i believe them, as a rule, unless its pretty obvious that they lack wisdom in there life or its “i think God wants me to go have sex with my girlfriend!” (i.e. things that can be expressly seen in the Word of God…which is the written voice of God)….i know this is me digging up old dirt but if your a Christian have you considerd maybe that is the Holy Spirit talking….and your saying its not…..therefore at the least causing doubt….and at the worst saying that it is a diffrent Spirit (i.e. demonic?)….i dont want to be that guy but i think the Bible calls that Blaspheming the Holy Spirit…..but hey…its probly not….and you might not have ever met Christ so i guess this is a pointless post.
quizicalsays:May 1, 2012 5:35 PMReply
and please dont read that like im thinking that your less of a person if you dont know Jesus. this is an honest question.
Christ-likesays:May 14, 2012 5:16 PMReply
I say getting the word out is always important, and at the same time people should be able to share opinions and experiences freely. But at the same time I feel people attacking each other isn’t very christianly, Or Christ like— I say let go and let God to all sides involved. Pray for your enemies or those who have hurt you, or those u disagree with, and let God handle it. We need to be a good representation of Christ, since there is enough negative Christianity all over the place already. I pray God’s peace and healing on all involved, and that God lead us all in the ways He has for us.
