Pushing Jesus is blog focused on recovery from spiritual abuse. For me, the content is hit or miss, but I really appreciated this post which is reprinted below. (Bold emphasis is mine.)
Refer to STEP 6: I made a commitment to turn away from my pride and refused to become just like those who abused me.
No man, for any considerable period, can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true.
—Nathaniel Hawthorne
A surprisingly large number of narcissistic men and women lead major Christian ministries. Because their unique “Christianized personality disorder” is not easily recognized, these men and women routinely abuse those they have been called to serve. As part of their disorder, these leaders never recognize or acknowledge the true nature of their wrongs or the consequences of their behavior, which influence every aspect of their ministry.
They behave ruthlessly, while calling it God’s leading, misleading many in the process. Their egocentric worldview allows them to embrace a mind-set, which equates their will with God’s will. From their perspective, the two are one and the same. Because their calling is higher than others, they consider themselves to be more important, and act accordingly. To them, what they think and say carries more weight than others. Leaders like these actually feel contempt for people who don’t agree with every word that flows from their mouths.
By the message they preach, they would deny this but, by their actions, they validate it consistently. They rarely admit wrongdoing because they never believe they are wrong, which is integral to their disorder. They not only lack empathy for others; they don’t even understand what it is.
What makes people like these so difficult to recognize is that they have great empathy for “the lost”—for nameless, faceless people, who are idealized and not tangible. While loving the lost, however, they are quite willing to trample upon anyone who gets in their way to reach them. Narcissists love loosely defined groups rather than real people because they are incapable of dealing normal interpersonal relationships. It’s the idea of helping people they love, not getting involved in the lives of ordinary human beings.
30 comments:
Anonymoussays:November 12, 2010 at 8:27 AMReply
Thanks for posting this RA.
I personally believe that Dave Hasz suffers from disorder and have referenced this opinion on a regular basis throughout this blog.
Unfortunately, people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder do not have the capacity to recognize this within themselves and seek help. They are often incapable of feeling any depth of emotion and more importantly, they are incapable of experiencing EMPATHY. Additionally, many therapists will not treat patients with NPD because they are nearly impossible to work with. In the mind of the narcissist, they have done nothing wrong.
The charismatic nature of the typical narcissist only adds to the dilemma of interacting with them. They have a way of drawing people in, making them do what they want them to, and making them believe everything they say. They thrive on praise and adoration en masse, and they truly despise anyone who goes against them. It eats them up. By telling current interns that reading this blog is a “sin”, Dave Hasz is exemplifying this point to perfection. Narcissists are masters of manipulation.
So, if you read this and find yourself thinking remembering the time when you practically trembled as Dave or Ron passed by on the sidewalk, or the times in chapel you wanted to disagree or challenge a point but just couldn’t because you were afraid to, bingo. You were part of a narcissists fantasy land. There are more examples of this. Dave Hasz’ wife Beth recently wrote a facebook post in defense of Dave, and it was no surprise to me that she painted a picture of PERFECTION –this act is TEXTBOOK typical behavior of those the narcissist has chosen to be around him or her–they can have nothing less than adoration.
When I first found out about NPD after dating a man with it for three months, I suddenly found that all my anger and disbelief at his actions melted into compassion and sadness. As I realized the emotional empathetic part of his brain was shut down, I became less attached to his reactions and behavior. This was truly someone suffering and isolated, despite their charisma and popularity.
This information may or may not help someone trying to recover from the influence of a narcissist in their life, but I know it helped me.
heartsfiresays:November 12, 2010 at 8:41 AMReply
Narcissists love loosely defined groups rather than real people because they are incapable of dealing normal interpersonal relationships.
This goes for everything at TM. They love the lost, interns, teenagers, ect. but when place into a situation with a hurting teenager with anything other than a basic perfect Christian life they condemn them for not being a person who sees the world the same as they do.
Mike Doughneysays:November 12, 2010 at 8:42 AMReply
This post and comment leads me to one other observation – that from what I’ve seen, the role of a lot of Christian ministries, and the objective of the prominent personalities of the Christian subculture of which Teen Mania is one small cog in a very large machine, is to drive empathy out of people. Perhaps NPD is contagious?
juliesays:November 12, 2010 at 9:14 AMReply
“is to drive empathy out of people”
I don’t think lack of empathy is contagious, but you certainly can learn it! In the high pressure world of constant confrontation about “sin,” empathy turned into “rationalization.” You could no longer empathize with your roommate for being tired and stressed out after a long day. Those are “excuses” for her to sin by “rationalizing” why the joy of the Lord isn’t her strength right now. This is why interns are so hard on each other. You have it drilled into your mind that putting yourself in someone else’s shoes is wrong because you are only looking for excuses and rationalizations for their sin, which of course is the most unloving thing you could do because a loving person confronts his brother for a lack of strength in his moment of weakness instead of seeing his pain and offering to carry him! This also explains why the Honor Council lacks empathy toward interns who break the rules.
laynesays:November 12, 2010 at 10:48 AMReply
Another reason why the HA program is so damned deceptive. I remember believing that the HA would be a place a healing and graceful acceptance of everyone from all different walks of life, and based this opinion upon Ron’s outspoken “heart” and “brokeness” for the lost, abused, and hurting teens (via ATF). I used to believe that he was made of pure compassion and empathy. Maybe he is in a sort of abstract, disconnected way.
Ericsays:November 12, 2010 at 11:16 AMReply
“I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not welcome us. So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.” (3 John 9-11, NIV)
First century diagnosis? I think so.
Anonymoussays:November 12, 2010 at 12:10 PMReply
Was Jesus a narcissist? Was Paul a narcissist?
Recovering Alumnisays:November 12, 2010 at 12:12 PMReply
If you are going to comment, please say something that makes sense and adds to the conversation, otherwise I will delete it.
Watchman Trentsays:November 12, 2010 at 1:20 PMReply
I think that this may be overstating the case with regards to Dave. I would totally agree with this in Ron’s case. I think that Dave’s problem relates more to having bound himself in honor to Ron and when you bind yourself in honor this kind of thing is definitely contagious. Dave was called to be a missionary, it’s right there in his testimony and I think that maybe if he obeyed what he claims was God’s will for his life maybe he wouldn’t be whet he is now. Power corrupts, and it’s sad that it has corrupted him.
Anonymoussays:November 12, 2010 at 1:49 PMReply
Dave can unbind himself anytime he wants…what honor is there in binding yourself to a “bully” for God’s love to hurting teens?
Watchman Trentsays:November 12, 2010 at 1:57 PMReply
Here is the sick thing. Dave has invested too much in his time at the HA too see that. More than that he actively won’t see it, it means that too much of his life was spent doing evil rather than good.
Reminds me of a certain kind of wife to an abusive husband, the kind that constantly says, “well he’s not perfect, but…”
Wait a minute that sounds kinda famliar…
Anon 12says:November 12, 2010 at 3:12 PMReply
RA, this post is the best answer I’ve heard so far in regards to RL and DH. I wonder if there is any research about people who “follow” these leaders? Do those followers take on the same behaviors/personalities as the person with the NPD?
Cassiesays:November 13, 2010 at 6:24 PMReply
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a serious mental illness. As with any mental illness, Anon 12, I don’t think that everyone who associates with an individual with NPD would exhibit the same behavior….however, there would probably be some interrelational difficultes with other as a result of interaction with such an individual.
Shilohsays:November 13, 2010 at 7:24 PMReply
So, I’ve heard this said a few times. I’ve never heard of this syndrome. can you guys help me out here. what makes you think Dave has this? or Ron?
I’m genuinely confused. It seems like one thing to call them jerks when they are acting like it, but to say they have a mental disorder?
Anon 12says:November 13, 2010 at 9:54 PMReply
Cassie,
Thanks for the reply. I wasn’t trying to imply that NPD isn’t a serious illness. I understand that NPD is a disorder and not contagious. My interests are more about the effects on people who try to mimick the behaviors of such a leader with NPD.
I’ve always been interesting in the long term effects on the people who live with someone with this disorder.
I don’t know if I agree that DH or RL suffer from NPD but I wonder if NPD has influenced their type of leadership somehow.
I wish I was better with words. I know I am not communicating this well. I’ll stop now while I am ahead, hopefully.
LizBRsays:November 14, 2010 at 11:27 AMReply
Please allow me to give my input on this issue:
We do need to be careful making an armchair diagnosis, whether or not we have a background in psychology.
You know when a celebrity has a downfall and someone like Dr. Phil diagnoses them without ever having treated them — and he gets lambasted for it because you can’t diagnose someone you’ve never treated? We don’t want to be the Dr. Phils who are diagnosing Dave and Ron with disorders, when we have no real basis to do so. (I believe that the only basis for diagnosing someone with a mental illness or disorder is actually seeing and treating them one-on-one.)
I think it is absolutely valid to point out behavior that appears to be narcissistic in nature, and to look to scripture for guidance in recognizing and responding to truly selfish behavior. . .but I really don’t know that it’s appropriate for us to branch into armchair diagnosis.
I’m not saying we can’t have this conversation. We just need to be careful as we have it.
Lisa Mariesays:November 14, 2010 at 5:36 PMReply
LizBR…thank you for that excellent comment. I wholeheartedly agree, and i appreciate you coming at this with such a positive attitude, encouraging us to continue dialogue while being careful where we’re going with it.
Anonsays:November 14, 2010 at 6:25 PMReply
Liz.
I am not diagnosing anyone.
But I can have an opinion.
And I can express it.
And I do think Dave has Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
This is my opinion.
Like it or leave it.
LizBRsays:November 14, 2010 at 10:09 PMReply
Hi, Anon.
Yes, I understand that that is your opinion. And you are certainly allowed to have it. However, it is not our place to diagnose someone, which is what it appears you have done, even if you don’t feel like you have. That would be like me saying about someone, “I believe she is anorexic,” even though I don’t actually know the person I’m talking about.
It would be safer for me to say, “As an outside observer, it looks to me that she appears to have some of the symptoms of anorexia.”
Obviously you are welcome to express yourself; if you were crossing a line RA would have put a stop to it.
I simply think that as this conversation continues, we should avoid using labels that can be easily debated and instead focus on the actions and words of the person at hand.
Also, may I suggest creating a pseudonym to use on the forum? It will help us differentiate you from the other Anonymous posters that comment here and there.
Kristasays:November 15, 2010 at 8:44 AMReply
I think it’s also important to, instead of focusing on whether or not DH & RL have this sort of personality disorder, to focus on what might be the effects of this sort of teaching, charisma, narcissism, whatever… on the participants of the HA?
gracemakesfreesays:November 15, 2010 at 11:59 AMReply
I agree with Krista.
I think the ministry as a whole operates under a dysfunctional, narcissistic, elite attitude …
Not only that – there is a sense of “honor” in being the victim as well.
How absolutely perverted.
Anon 12says:November 15, 2010 at 8:41 PMReply
LizBR,
I will definately take your advice on creating another pseudonym for the forum because that last ANON wasn’t me. That is confusing. Sorry about that. I haven’t posted anything since my last post November 13. I wasn’t labeling DH with NPD. I’m not sure if the last ANON was trolling or if they just did’t realize that there was an Anon 12 posting.
In so many words I was trying to make the same point as Krysta when she said,
“I think it’s also important to, instead of focusing on whether or not DH & RL have this sort of personality disorder, to focus on what might be the effects of this sort of teaching, charisma, narcissism, whatever… on the participants of the HA?”
Her words are way better. I shouldn’t have posted anything really. My thoughts weren’t very clear at that time.
I’ll think of something else for a name on the forums. Anon 12 does actually stand for something but I don’t like that it can be confussed by another Anon.
Thanks. The REAL ANON 12 soon to be something else.
Cassiesays:November 15, 2010 at 10:00 PMReply
LizBR…I coudn’t agree more.
LizBRsays:November 16, 2010 at 7:52 AMReply
Anon12 — Thanks for clarifying! 🙂
jacksays:November 16, 2010 at 2:27 PMReply
On February 1,2011, Simon & Schuster will release “Recovering from Religious Abuse,” which is based upon the 11 steps to spiritual maturity. I’ve written it for people like us.
Jack Watts
Pushing Jesus
Recovering Alumnisays:November 16, 2010 at 2:54 PMReply
That’s great, Jack! Congratulations.
Anonymoussays:November 30, 2010 at 12:22 PMReply
Hmmm….this post makes me wonder how many naive christians or interns have gotten into relationships and marriages after the internship with men or women with “christian personality disorder” otherwise disguised as zeal for the Lord? Doesn’t make for a very healthy marriage. I should know.
Anonymoussays:November 30, 2010 at 8:50 PMReply
@ Anon 12:22 *raises hand*
Jessysays:June 5, 2012 at 7:51 AMReply
I don’t think Jesus was a narcissist. However, I think the apostle Paul was likely a narcissist and since Christians follow more of Paul’s teachings than Christ’s teachings (most of Christianity is the teachings of Paul, not the teachings of Jesus), Christians have a narcissist i.e. the apostle Paul, as the founder of their religion. Thus it is no surprise the modern church is full of people with NPD, especially the leadership and those in authority.
Anonymoussays:November 24, 2014 at 1:18 AMReply
Jessy. Interesting perspective, well said.
I found this discussion by googling keywords (“Paul Apostle Narcissist”) after reading Corinthians#2 tonight……I have a TON of biblical resource stuff on my bookshelf; Bible itself has gotten little attention from me in the past, because I just go by the virtuous teachings (as summarized in key principles/quotes & topic-based stuff by ‘authors of faith’ etc.) – but I recently was drawn to flipping to the book of Acts,which then peaked my interest in Paul……so i grazed through to mark off all the chapters authored by Paul, and having always been a big glazer-thriu I actaually was