Conspiracies, Persecutions and Catastrophes, Oh My!

Oh that poor kid. I have heard Dave say things like that over and over in his world awareness lectures this year. Small comments about how “these are the things your current leaders believe” or “be ready for when they won’t let you preach the gospel because saying there’s no other God is intolerant”. It is of course a gross misstep on Dave’s part to keep telling the these kids that. When they do come into the world and away from TM I hope someone teaches them the difference between persecution and being wise in when and how you do things. It’s this type of mindset that cause teens to think that they are “warriors” as they walk into another religion’s place of worship and sing loudly over their worship. Learning class in presenting your religion is what it takes to be a real grown up I just wish these kids would find it out soon.

Yeah, this reminds me a lot of the whole “war against culture” sort of thing… I swallowed that whole when I was attending ATFs growing up, but I’m beginning to see how more and more ridiculous this is. I mean, yes, there are a lot of problems with our country and culture, but whatever happened to being all things to all people? Missionaries who go into other countries have to learn the culture of wherever they are going and try to blend in to a certain extent… what’s any different about it here? heartsfire is right, we should be teaching people how to present and defend their faith with class instead of teaching fear, hatred, and rebellion towards the culture outside that of TM.

Well, the lte traumatized me big time. It’s actually kinda angering to watch now. I think the key is in the end of it. ‘Everyone just acted like it was a game instead of a learning experience. just shooting off their airsoft guns.’
What he doesn’t know is it wasn’t a game for most of them. Most of them were fairly bent on hurting each other.

What keeps running through my mind is 2 Tim 1:7 – For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline.

We learned “discipline” as “sound mind.” My father used to remind us that God is not one of confusion and fear, because he is Perfect Love, which casts out fear. It’s sad that TM would hold up fear or impending doom as some sort of value, when what the Lord values is a spirit of fearfulness.

This is the same kid from the video clip of the room devotions several weeks ago. He cracks me up! LTE’s do not crack me up however. The only ones I enjoyed was the unreached people’s group retreat and the crosswalk. Yes, I am old enough to have experienced the crosswalk. Haha! The Babylon retreat and the another retreat we did like it with crossing into borders,etc. was traumatizing with staff yelling at you, fear of being hunted down, etc. I ended up hiding in the woods alone for several hours which I ended up so far to the edge of Teen Mania’s property that I actually was outside of it, alone, which is totally unsafe. I didn’t learn anything from that retreat except for that the staff and GI’s seemed to be on power trips.

I do have to give props to the kid though. He does crack me up as well. Good guy. Gonna do big things I’m sure. 🙂

He’s on ministry team next year hope he won’t be two screwed up! His youtube account is interesting.

wow this topic is crazy. Its an event to help you semi-experience the last days as referred to in Revelation. Its not a bad event, I went to TM and did it and it was pretty fun. The Event was voluntary, and everyone enjoyed themselves. My core and 2 sister cores kept telling everyone how much fun we had during it. Great LTE!

So why do we need to simulate the events that are going to occur in the last days? What is the purpose of that? What biblical relevance does that have? How is that supposed to stimulate growth in the christian life?

Shannon, I personally did this LTE, and it really helped me grow and was fun. I didnt know much about revelation or what the persecution would be like; but after the event I learned alot about what it would be like through the examples used in this LTE. It helps stimulate growth, in that it pushes you to work together with your fellow Christians and survive government persecution in the last days. Everyone I know loved the event, and my core and 2 sister cores are all planning to do it again. Its one of the interns favorite LTE’s. Its funny when I hear see less than 20 maybe even 10 people complain about it on here, when hundreds love it. Its a huge growing experience because of the trials it provides you. Every LTE isnt for everyone, you can totally choose not to do it, but you miss out on an amazing growing experience.

But, again, my question is WHY do you need to know what these events are like? What purpose does having that experience have?

How does being mockingly tortured stimulate growth?

And where does it show any resemblance to the Bible or Jesus? I don’t recall Jesus sending his disciples out to play a game of “end times warfare” as a lesson.

I can think of a lot of other LTEs that would be more beneficial than this or ESOAL. As a matter of fact, when I was in college I participated in Cardboard City. For 36 hours, those that wanted to participate, were given a cardboard box and instructions. We were to live life as a homeless person for 36 hours. This gave us an opportunity to experience the REAL hardships that people experience in the here and now— not the potential hardships that may or may not occur during our time, literally or figuratively.

Out of touch with the outside world…our Family who follow Christ experiences untold persecution in the “outside world”.They get chased. They get shot. They get bombed. Death and imprisonment is their fate and has been has been since the inception of our faith. the U.S. is not a magical place where Christians will never be persecuted.What kind of America worship is that? If anything the World Awareness LTE is out of touch because it is such a blast..

I want to bring a different perspective to this, During my year I heard from many people that things like DnD and White Wolf role playing games were from the devil and evil. The thing is those were the people who payed for my internship as my dad is a avid role-player. I learned to love the improvisational theater style that was LARP I was told that this was a sin, the thing is then you have UPG and WA retreats which are effectively a more DANGEROUS version of a LARP. In LARP when anyone does any physical action to you they have to just tell you because they are not allowed to physically harm you. In DnD all physicality is done on dice. NEITHER of these cause danger and are really just people playing pretend for a few hours which is no different than what these two LTEs are doing it’s just that they are LARPing an end of the world scenario with less safe guards and in a way that half the participants don’t know exactly where the aggressors will stop.

dfree,

I would like to know what horrible persecution Christians face in America?

Now, being mocked, picked on, or made fun of is hardly persecution.

American Christians (and really any religion or sect in America) has it VERY easy compared to other countries where it is one religion or else.

It makes me sick to hear American Christians claiming that they are persecuted because an atheist group stood up for their right to freedom of religion (or lack there of), or because someone made fun of their religion. Seriously, grow a pair!

American Christians spend more time bashing ppl groups (or anyone who disagrees with them) here in the states than they do preaching the love of their God. So. Who’s being persecuted? Who’s trying to deny who their rights? Would that be gay couples? Women? Or, wait, right-wing Christians?

From Wikipedia (Original Reference: Barry A. Kosmin and Ariela Keysar (2009). “AMERICAN RELIGIOUS IDENTIFICATION SURVEY (ARIS) 2008” (PDF). Hartford, Connecticut, USA: Trinity College. Retrieved 2009-04-01.):

“The majority of Americans (76%) identify themselves as Christians, mostly within Protestant and Catholic denominations, accounting for 51% and 25% of the population respectively.”

So Teen Mania is saying that within the US, 76% of it’s population is being – or will be – persecuted, hunted down, thrown into jail, shot on site, etc. ? I just don’t see it.

heartsfire- you have the coolest dad ever.

Shannon Kish,

American Christians don’t face horrible persecutions. America is not the only country in the world. It is called World Awareness LTE not American
Awareness LTE. Persecution is the norm for Christians in some countries. It is good to stand with them and identify with them. And to try and learn what they go through. Hence the World Awareness LTE.

Also I think that being mocked, picked on, and made fun of can certainly be a form of persecution. It seems that those in the recovering alumni have experienced such emotional abuse. It can be truly hurtful.

Finally I think the “grow a pair” advice could equally be given to those who freak out about World Awareness LTE…People have it way harder elsewhere.

Nunquam 🙂 Yeah I know for Noah’s 8th birthday we bought him a munchkin set he now is one of us 😀

dfree – As said in the article, “However, things changed a bit this year. Instead of acting like a closed country, the government was “pursuing absolute tolerance at any cost.” (According to the video below). This would indicate to me a fear of persecution not just abroad in a closed country, but a fear of persecution led by the government here in America.”

They were emulating persecution in the States as it would be if the US government decided to hate on a belief system that chose not to tolerate other belief systems (or what they consider immoral, such as homosexuality).

Tolerence… what a “scary” concept. *shakes head no* Let’s have an RA LTE, let’s come up with an emergency plan just in case one day this country decides to call bullshit on all religion. Tragic.

The problem that I have with this LTE is all it really simulates is fear. The real persecuted church is made up of some of the most courageous, fearless Christians I’ve ever met! No LTE can simulate how God grows your faith in the face of persecution. I’ve worked with the persecuted church in several countries and what always amazes me is their joy! What would accomplish this LTE’s purpose more effectively would be to have speakers like Nora Lamb come speak and interact with the interns. Instead of pretending to be persecuted for a few hours, interns could learn what persecution is really like from those who’ve lived it!

Dfree, I agree that there is little, if any, persecution in the US. I don’t see mocking or picking is persecution– especially when you consider real persecution. No doubt being mocked can be hurtful, but to label it as persecution is a bit much, especially when you understand the definition of persecution-is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group.

Here is my issue with the LTE and many of the others that are at the HA. Sure, it simulates what other Christians in closed countries (of which there are not as many as the HA would have you believe) may POSSIBLY go through. The simulation can produce an understanding and empathy towards those that experience that type of persecution. However, there are other ways to get that point across that are not as dangerous.

Let me explain, a famous social psychology experiment shows how dangerous simulating these types of things can be. The Stanford Prison Experiment illustrates human’s capacity to truly take on the roles that they are instructed to play and that taking on this role can have lasting damaging affects on them. In this experiment volunteers were asked to participate. They were broken up into 2 groups– guards and prisoners. They were charged with the responsibility of living in a mock prison environment and taking on their roles.

The results, which can be read all over the internet and even viewed on youtube and netflix, were that the prisoners truly took on the mindset of a prisoner–including the degradation, behavioral patterns, and similar. Similarly, the guards took on the role of guards.

This is dangerous, because as the experiment showed, just by role playing the experiment altered who the volunteers were and what they believed. The prisoners who were once friendly with a guard not hated and despised the guard. Vice versa also occurred. The effects of this experiment didn’t just stop once the experiment ended (which it was forced to end early).. they have lasted for years to come.

The HA puts interns— who are highly vulnerable in the first place (given the nature of the HA, their age, maturity levels, etc)– and places them in roles that can quickly become dangerous for them. While it is fun and games when it happens– sometimes it’s not.

Watching a movie, hearing a speaker, visiting a memorial— all of these ideas can also create TMs desired effect of placing you in the shoes of others and each of these ideas are a LOT less dangerous than the LTEs that TM uses.

Shannon Kish,

I still don’t see how mocking or picking is not persecution..what if an individual or group is systematically mocked or picked on (I think specifically of individuals in the gay community). People commit suicide over that junk.

I think the biggest difference between the Stanford Prison Experiment and the World Awareness LTE is that the leaders are on both sides. When I did it both Dave Hasz and Randy Olsson were on our camp among many others. They were even arrested. I have been on both the “persecuted” and “government” side and the jail was really not that big a deal. I hardly think it counts as “simulation” of a real prison. I don’t buy the comparison. WA LTE is not a social experiment run by psychologists. I would also like to point that WA LTE included watching movies and hearing speakers..So I think HA would probably agree with you.

Christians in closed countries live under the shadow of persecution every day. They have for centuries. In many countries. It does not matter how many and frankly I don’t think HA gives a specific number of how many closed countries it thinks there are..

I would also question the categorization of all HA interns as “highly vulnerable.”

Dfree–

If I pick on you that doesn’t mean that I am systematically mistreating you. I may be mistreating you, but not systematically. Regardless, it doesn’t matter if you consider mocking persecution or not. If you do, it is a very, very mild form of it.

Um, there were leaders during the Stanford experiment as well. They video-recorded the entire thing. The World Awareness LTE (and Esoal, UPG)are all eerily similar to the Standford Prison Experiment. But what does a “big deal” mean to you? I recall my UPG and being arrested… and it was a “Big deal” to me. While it may not have been to you.

I am not suggesting that the WA is a simulation of a real prision– it isn’t. It is a simulation of supposedly “real” events that are to occur in the world (during the end times, during mission trips, etc).

The LTEs may not be run by social psychologists and may not be treated as an experiment– that doesn’t change the fact that it is dangerous. In fact, given that there is only ONE LPC (or licensed clinical staff at all) on the payroll at TM, I would say that this fact makes the LTE even more dangerous than if it were run by social psychologists. Experiments have ethics boards they have to answer to, and a host of people who are specially trained in safety, and the conditions in which they are introducing the subjects to– TM does not have that.

I categorized all individuals between 16-24 as “highly vulnerable”, not just HA interns. Developmentally, they are more vulnerable– that is fact, not just my assumption or categorization. (Read up on developmental psychology) Why do you think it is that the HA is only open to those in that age range? Why isn’t there an HA or similar for adults older than 24-30?

Wild Momma, you hit the nail on the head. Teen Mania has become a Religious Right organization…much more so now than even when I was there (August 98-99). And the Religious Right is based on conspiracy theories and fear. “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind”!. “But what if X?!?!”, “Power, love and a sound mind”!

Shannon Kish

But you could in fact be systematically picking on someone. Thus mistreating them. I would fully agree that it is mild compared to say death, torture, and intimidation. But it could be quite serious for those who go through it.

What I meant by leaders in the LTE is that there were leaders as participants not facilitators. They were on the “persecuted” side. Mr. Stoner had Mr. Hasz arrested (I imagine some here would have loved to see that).

At 18 or 23 what exactly are people more highly vulnerable to? Throwing everyone in that age range into one category is dubious at best..consider the diversity of experiences people go through in such LTE’s even though they are in the same age group and are in the same event. Their Psychology could be a spurious variable.

And if it is not an experiment then why have social psychologist present?

dfree