In case you can’t read the screencaps, the conversation is reprinted below (emphasis mine).
Jeremy: yea, it was a bad piece of journalism, but from being inside sitting directly under Ron, seeing and witnessing the arrogance that Dave and Ron have about the faults of TMM and the HA is appalling. They are both dismissive of all things negative of them, their ministry and their leadership and are highly judgmental of those who’ve been legitimately scarred by their experiences with TM…regardless of their public claims about seeking reconciliation and whatnot. And what they have done to ‘make things right’ was a good whitewash from what their perceptive is of it all privately. RA does have an agenda and they are malicious and that was bad journalism (if you can call it that), but that doesn’t erase the glaring issues that TMM and it’s leadership has. The comment that Ron said on the christianpost (sic) article about (that I will poorly quote) “we’ve had millions of people attend our events and we have 4 people upset about it” is pretty tell tale.
Jeremy: “Here’s the quote “We’ve had literally millions of young people come to our events…and out of all these years – this is our 25th anniversary – they have four people that are saying, ‘This is really a bad thing,’” Luce said. There is a problem with this perspective – they are dismissive of anything negative and think people who have problems with the ministry and people who are genuinely hurt by their experience are isolated cases but not indicative of anything systemic and do not require any responsibility on their part…and it’s pervasive with the internal leadership.
Alumnus 1: I take that quote to mean that over the course of 25 years, millions of people have found TM’s events worthwhile enough to come to, and the RA group has four people that are against TM. Ron didn’t say that only 4 people have ever disliked TM.
Alumnus 1: That’s how it comes across to me.
Jeremy: that’s not what I’m saying either. Ron didn’t say that “only 4 people have ever disliked TM.” He said “we have had millions of people attend events, they have 4 people here saying it’s not good.” He’s dismissing the accusations and the basis of the documentary – which is people who have legitimate issues with the organization. The fact is (and people who aren’t inside seeing these things would never know this), TMM has multiple lawsuits against it, they have hundreds of people engaged on the RA site and there are also other sites like it. This is a much larger issue than many people know.
84 comments:
WOW is all I have to say! I guess it’s easy for Dave and Ron to get up on their high horse when they think they’re doing it for God. But seriously, going to an ATF event doesn’t exactly constitute all the abuse that TM puts out there. I mean, ATF is their bait, if people get abused there, no one will go on GE trips or go to the HA.
I can’t say I’m really surprised, although I would like to know more about said lawsuits…
Hmmmmmm… Wonder if there’s talk of taking another “mulligan” at the TM executive offices after seeing this post…..
Oh so they are the same assholes in private as they are in public. Integrity.
SNAP!!!
Contrast the attitude of Ron and Dave with this: http://www.harvestnet.org/teachings/truthteller.htm
TM has always been dismissive of real problems. They are much happier to whitewash the tomb to conceal the death it holds. Behind closed doors they’re very clear about the dead body inside, but they won’t let on in public.
TM’s days are numbered. Their spectacular demise is inevitable. There is no love left in that ministry, at least from the top. All the PR shenanigans in the world can’t turn this around.
This confirms what I’ve suspected all along…very disappointing. However, we know that they will stand before the Lord to give account for their behavior and excuses one day….
I’m also interested in those “multiple lawsuits.” It’s about time.
The question for anyone tempted to defend TM leadership is simple: If this assessment isn’t true, then why did Ron Luce make that dismissive remark in the “Christian Post”? What does a dismissive remark show if not a dismissive attitude?
Bear in mind that even the Wikipedia page for Teen Mania reports that there are over 200 “recovering” HA alumni, a little bit bigger number than 4. Surely Luce can’t be unaware of the fact.
Consider also Jesus’ description of the “good shepherd”:
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.” (Matthew 18:12-13– yes, that Matthew 18.)
Yes, as good shepherds we should love and come along side Teen Mania to bring them back to the fold.
Its hard for me to agree with you Eric when I want to see their spectacular demise. Nothing brings me more rejoicing to see my enemy fall and to see them stumble will bring exceeding gladness to my heart.
PS: Please, don’t cite Wikipedia as if it were a reliable reference.
The multiple lawsuits is interesting to hear about.
I think that it should be relatively easy for those familiar with such legal matters to get information on these lawsuits.
I think that it is safe to say that 4 is an inaccurate number. Between those of this site, as well as concerned alumni, I think that there are many more out there not speaking up. “We’ are quite likely to be the tip of the iceberg. There are many more out there that are hurting and they need healing.
I do not think that those are part of the RA community are malicious. I think we have been more than fair over the past two years contacting TM as a group as well as individuals to seek reconciliation. It is because of the harsh dismissive attitude and lies from TMs leadership that the effort to bring this issue into the light of day has continued.
As for the ‘bad journalism’: I assume the former staffer is referring to ‘M.O.M’ – the journalism was commonplace for this day and time. Of course, it was limited to less than an hour for airtime – and many issues were not able to be addressed or in a more ‘whole’ manner.
Well, good Job Micah (or whoever posted this)…after me saying that I would not like being all over your blog…good job blowing that request off. You have the integrity of a gnat. That said, I was NOT the Director of PR…there is no such thing “officially” at TMM. It would be wise for them to hire one, but that would cost money to either outsource or hire a qualified person. As to the multiple lawsuits, to be clear (and a fact check would be in order) this is something that I have not been able to personally substantiate…so if you guys would like to hold on to the tiny shred of unbiased perspective the blog still has, it would be wise for you all to fact check some of these things. I have only heard of this from a few other people (mostly past employees who have had similar experiences but who wisely do not engage on this blog).
That’s all I’ll say about this…but thanks for not honoring the wishes that I expressly relayed to you.
Jeremy – I have kept the contents of our private conversation private, just as I promised. However, these comments were made on a public page. If you didn’t want them repeated, I’m sorry to say that you should have made them in private.
I will update your your job title accordingly.
No, it’s your right to publish what you want on your blog, that’s not my issue…I just thought we had an understanding. But it’s cool. I stand by what I said…but it’s just unfortunate that you’ll blow off my wishes about not being a part of your blog in order to get some new fodder. (I shouldn’t have expected more…my bad).
Jeremy – I would much rather prefer you to share openly here but you declined. It is curious to me why someone like yourself, who has first hand knowledge of wrongdoing by TM leadership – including outright lies and manipulation – fails to come forward willingly? Your silence just enables the evil to continue.
Jeremy,
I hope you didn’t sign a non-disclosure agreement with TM. I had to once at a church that I worked for, more specifically for the pastor I worked directly under. I refused. Luckily, I had another job lined up so I quit just before they could fire me. However, I know many people who DID sign it, violated it, lost their jobs and then the church pursued them in court for violating agreement.
I hope this is not the case for you at TM. Truly.
That being said, RA in this instance did not violate a private conversation between the two of you. If this was publicly available content on a social media site with no privacy restrictions set, then it is a matter of public record. I’m sure you’re upset by it, understandably so. But this isn’t RA’s misstep…Nor is it fodder. It’s the truth that TM has worked very hard to try to keep under wraps.
I agree with ishouldcareless on this issue. I understand both sides of this issue but RA did nothing wrong in sharing a public posting and refraining from posting private conversation.
The “TRUTH”! You’re kidding me, some guy gives a negative opinion on a blog and you treat it like its an infallible, irrefutable fact. So, Ron and Dave joked around about some of the people on this site. Hmmm, I wonder if anyone on this site has joked around about Ron or Dave?
It’s just like Jeremy said earlier. You will look for whatever fodder you can. He admits this is a conversation involving opinion and hearsay, not some excerpt from a professional journal or some guy testifying under oath.
Why would it be ok for the leaders of an organization to joke about those they have wounded?
As leaders in the Christian world, shouldn’t Ron and Dave be held to a higher standard?
And, for the record, Wendy and I did go meet with Dave and Heath last summer and share our concerns about what was happening at the Honor Academy. While I appreciate the fact that they were willing to meet with us, all they did the entire time was justify themselves. There was no openness to take an honest look at themselves, and no willingness to make amends where they had been in error.
What’s wrong with joking about hurting someone?
Picture this. A woman who happens to be a prostitute encounters a man at the local watering hole. He knows of her pain, and outright mocks her to his 12 closest friends. He does not see her and love her as she is: broken and hurting. Instead, he shrugs his shoulders and then walks away completely unaffected by her wounds.
Too much Jesus in that for you? Okay.
A man verbally brutalizes his wife every day for a year. Calls her a liar, a bitch, and insists that she must be unfailingly perfect or she will pay the price of getting it wrong. She tells him it hurt her deeply, that she is starting to act on those feelings of worthlessness, and she asks him to change his behavior repeatedly. He does not. She asks him again. He does not. He blames her for not getting it right. He makes public platitudes, but behind closed doors he and his buddies laugh it off, and continues his verbal assault.
Sounds like Jesus, right?
The lawsuit comment might be hearsay, but its pretty clear that Jeremy directly witnessed TM’s dismissive and scornful attitudes. He was at a director level position and privy to the inner workings…
If the comments are even 25% true and they made jokes about anything that anyone has ever had wrong with Teen Mania – then I think every dime they have ever been paid should be repossessed in a lawsuit – since every thing they have ever earned was at the hands of interns. Maybe they should think about that before opening their Mark Driscoll inclined mouths.
Oh and yes – another facebook lesson – post it online it is there to be screencapped – especially when its public. At least your laptop didn’t get 8 bullets in it.
Anon @6:05– A very Christlike attitude you have there. Though I think there may be a bit of a distinction between rescuing the lost sheep and stopping the wolves who are trying to eat them.
Wikipedia gives as a source for that statistic a news article that Teen Mania quotes on their own website, by the way.
Jeremy– It’s really odd to me that you “stand by what you said” yet you’re so angry with someone pointing out that you said it. Why shoot the messenger? Surely you should be glad that the RA site is acting as a whistleblower on an organization that you yourself think is “appalling” with “glaring” and “pervasive issues.”
Anyway, your remarks only serve to corroborate what anyone who’s been watching objectively can infer for themselves– as you pointed out, Ron Luce went on record with it in the Christian Post article, not to mention his smirking “Honor Academy is not for everyone” in the MSNBC interview. If any of my former employers were that rotten, and with the risk of ensnaring more people into thinking God is like that to boot, I’d be glad to help expose their corruption.
Whistleblowing takes integrity and a backbone. With all due respect, don’t be a coward.
So is “You will look for whatever fodder you can” the new stock TM party line for this site? How amusing. Bullet points:
– Fodder is a very nourishing food (at least for sheep), so failing to look for it is a very bad sign for health.
– Why isn’t TM making a similar effort to repair their public image by changing any behaviors that could be construed as abusive? Aren’t they supposed to live “above reproach”? Yet they’ve been reproached quite a bit lately.
– Oh right, they don’t care.
– The point is not that this site looks for it but that they’ve found it. Hundreds and hundreds of pages of it.
– We don’t have to try to make Teen Mania look bad. That’s what they’ve been doing.
Yes Eric, fodder can be nourishing, but not if you just use anything. Let’s say you use sawdust for fodder (you are just using whatever you can find). Will that nourish you’re livestock? Not unless you are raising termites. When hatred blinds a person, they will grasp for anything (grasping for straws) to use against their enemy. Bye the way, straw can also be a nourishing food for livestock.
Anonymous: So let’s see. You’re defending TM by being dismissive of this post’s negative claim about them. The claim in question is, “Teen Mania is dismissive of all things negative of them.” Don’t you see the irony? You just proved that very claim!
Since your own comment supports it, it’s clearly not a groundless accusation. That invalidates the “grasping for straws” line. Even the person quoted in this post (who’s evidently not happy with seeing his public remarks captured here) says “I stand by what I said” above. So, not sawdust, then.
Teen Mania’s obvious strategy is to get you to discredit this website without considering the many facts that it puts forward to support its position. Yes, facts. “Dave Hasz told lies to the media, you say? Ah well, some people will just use any stick to beat their enemies with, like these documented statements that show him lying.”
A better question is: if Teen Mania is about being “above reproach,” then how has this site been able to find so much to reproach it for?
I’m sure there are those who hate here. But to make a generalization like that is just silly and incorrect. To draw the (incorrect) conclusion that we are blinded by hatred is also silly. Bringing well-documented proof of TM’s unethical, immoral, and at times illegal behavior to light is not a slanderous media campaign against a spotless ministry. It is exposing the truth. The truth is ugly sometimes.
Most of us are recovering from spiritual abuse we encountered at the HA. Uncovering and untangling lies we were told there is a large part of that recovery. We, too, were blinded at TM and for many years after. Not by our hatred, but by our devotion. For many many years, it cost us far too much to admit how deeply we were hurt or affected and that the men we idolized in our late teens and early 20’s who are habitual manipulators and liars. We loved them and served in their ministry faithfully. We were completely blinded by our belief that we were doing the “right thing”, even though scores of teenagers were being exploited and millions of dollars were unaccounted for. Why? Because OUR hearts were good. I can’t begin to know what is in DH or RL’s heart, but the fruit seems to be rotting from the inside out.
RL and DH show little genuine repentance, if any at all. Certainly if they were genuine in their apologies, they would never make fun of people they hurt, right?
Another lie from Ron Luce’s mouth is when he keeps claiming that there are only 4 people on this site and he has millions. Four people? I am certain that he can count past 4 so that means that he is speaking with the intent to decieve to the media. They know plenty about the people that post here because TM FEARS this site. To lie (again) to the media is simply stupid Ron. Get your head out of your boyfriends ass.
Can I just bring this post back around and say I am so glad this came to light. Not because it shows Ron or Dave in a negative light, honestly – THAT is truly sad. But because so many interns are terrified to say something is wrong. So many alumni won’t even mention the name ‘honor academy.’ many can’t say what they believe, what’s true, which way is up because they’ve been so lied to and deceived.
And THIS helps a lot of people to beable to stand up for what’s true.
Jeremy, for what it’s worth if you see this and if you care, it means so much to me that you were honest. You seem to be quite intelligent and have a good head on your shoulders and probably don’t need compliments to feel good. But, for what it’s worth as one who keeps falling back into the pit of confusion and anxiety because I just can’t understand WHY this is happening… Thank you for speaking up so I and others can finally stop thinking that Dave might someday be on our side.
Did anyone stop to think that maybe Ron wasn’t referring to the entire group of people who frequent this blog site, but to the 3 or 4 people in the documentary?
I mean, I hate this ministry as much as anyone. But like Jeremy said, “if you guys would like to hold on to the tiny shred of unbiased perspective the blog still has” it would be wise to make our attacks count. We seem desperate and malicious. I can see why we seem to be coming off as people growing in “bitterness” (I hate that word) rather than seeking healing and reconciliation.
I do grow tired of people implying that posts like these do not promote healing. They absolutely do. Look at Shiloh’s post above. Seeing things for what they REALLY are and cutting through the lies is part of the healing process. Personally, I don’t see anything “desperate or malicious” here – in fact, I’d say its TM that is desperate and malicious.
I’ve had to delete more abusive comments today than ever – and why is that? Because they don’t like PROOF that their fearless leader is an egotistical maniac.
Guns-n-Roses wrote a song called “Civil War”. One of the opening lines of the song says “Everybody is fighting for their promised land”
You’re fighting for what you think is right, that’s honorable. However, you are certainly not without mistake. You’ve made some major assumptions and even some twists to somethings. Take for example your post about “communication consultant caught in lie”
I read the first page of her twitter, and I could tell she was a new intern. Come on now, if that’s not grasping for straws I don’t know what is.
TM certainly is not without fault as well.
I don’t think I need to give any examples for that 🙂
A bunch of people hiding behind screen names can’t be considered progress toward healing.
And a therapist who thinks that any sort of faith is “magical thinking”?
I agree that sometimes TM says some pretty crazy things in faith, but it’s certainly not magical thinking. I have some pretty major problems with the Duncan clan.
Actually, your understanding of the facts is mistaken. That communication consultant is NOT an intern – and never was. You may want to re-read some things…
And I will not publish anymore comments that call into question whether or not this website is healing. So be warned.
“A bunch of people hiding behind screen names can’t be considered progress toward healing….”
… said “Anonymous.”
The irony is so thick in here today I think I’ll spread it on some bread and have an irony sandwich. Mmmm, irony.
Anon 9:08
I think it’s questionable at best.
Eric- it would be more fitting to have a irony burrito drenched in BS sauce. There’s an over abundance of that too.
I find it somewhat ridiculous that random anons keep posting comments on these threads questioning the intent of this blog or how healing this all is. If you were to go to any site or blog where people come together to discuss various abuses inflicted upon them, you would undoubtedly come across something on that site or blog pointing out or detailing the abuses they have suffered. These facts will obviously portray the abuser in a negative light and will often come a negative statements in general…duh, we’re talking about abuse here, not puppies, kittens or flowers. I think it is important that the people on this blog can discuss their feelings openly , including any feelings towards Teen Mania or it’s leadership. Which lets face it, are going to be negative. If you want to read raving reviews of Teen Mania go to their website. If reading people’s positive views of Teen Mania is what you are looking for, I am very sorry but you will not be finding that here. Because all these people have suffered at the hands of Teen Mania, of course they are going to warn other people about the possible dangers in participating in their programs.
-Michelle
But see Anon..@10:24, they just cannot do that because of their own insecurities. Somewhere, deep down inside, they know the truth, but want to justify what is going on. Human idol worship is an addiction too hard to break for some.
I say right now- NONE, and I say NONE of these celebrity pastors, teachers, youth leaders, worship leaders are worthy of our worship. This only goes to Christ Jesus. It is time to stop putting these men up on a throne where they do not belong. These men and women want the adulation, power, and money- it has become an addiction for them. These people are no different then the religious leaders of the New Testament- This was the reason they foamed at the mouth when Christ took them down a notch. They even knew (because they knew OT prophecy) that this was more than likely God’s Son in the flesh, but their allegiance to power and money was far stronger.
It is true that many interns deify leaders like Dave Hasz and Ron Luce. People all over America put their pastors and religious leaders on a pedestal they don’t belong on. Pointing out what some interns have done as a mistake is not a nice thing to do. It is also not Chirst-like to point out peoples faults with a “Hah, got you!” attitude. Yes, Jesus confronted pharisees and sadducees, but He never said, “You their, Jebuzia, you had an affair and you treated your servant Joshua very badly last Tuesday.” These are accusations. Christ was not the accuser. There is an accuser, and his name is not Jesus. Be careful when you find pleasure in publicizing the personal faults of others.
Anon @4:34 — The scriptural guideline is pretty straightforward, actually:
“Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.” (1 Timothy 5:19-20).
Rebuke is not the same as accusation– the accusation is what leads to the rebuke. There is definitely a place for public rebuke of religious leaders, and this site has waaay more than “two or three witnesses” backing it up. Even by Ron Luce’s own duplicitous reckoning (see above), “four people that are saying, ‘This is really a bad thing'” is more than enough to take seriously and warrant a public exposure. This site alone has nearly 90 people who have come forward with stories of abuse covering the past 18 years– imagine how many more there must be who don’t publish their experiences.
I don’t think anyone here takes pleasure in pointing out the reality that TM’s leadership is spiritually abusive — vindication is not the same as vindictiveness. But it is necessary (in fact it’s biblically mandated) to warn others that there are wolves in the fold.
“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.”– Desmond Tutu
By the way, it would help if all you Anons would use screen names so we can tell you apart. Just choose the “Name/URL” option and enter whatever name you like (a nickname, “Batman,” whatever.)
Thank you for your input Eric. I don’t necessarily agree with you, but I am glad to hear you are not posting things out of spitefulness or a genuine dislike for someone. These symptoms would of course only point to one source, the enemy of our souls, and the one who would love to see Christ’s church divided, Satan.
[Insert comment about irony of policing for hatred or bitterness while letting blatant abuse go unchallenged.]
To the anons that say things along the lines of this site “grasping at straws” and looking for “fodder”: This seems to come up any time some concrete information comes up about the goings-on at HA. The problem (well, one of the problems) seems to be that a lot of the damage these people have suffered comes from much less tangible factors. When members of leadership speak to someone in a hurtful manner, when factors like overworking and lack of sleep come into play regarding a person’s emotional state…when the alumni bring those up, what are they told by people like you? “The HA isn’t for everyone.” “It’s a tough environment.” “That can’t be considered abuse.”…blah, blah, blah. Many ex-interns have convinced themselves that they are crazy for feeling like they were damaged by HA…significantly more than, you know, the 4 or 5 (forgive me, I forget how many exactly) that were willing to go on national television about it. Accounts like this which seem to be popping up more and more often are concrete proof for them that they are justified for feeling how they feel. But if you won’t take concrete proofs of abuse, and you won’t take accounts of less tangible factors, what exactly would convince you? If, as I suspect, nothing would, then why are you here?
I agree with Jessica. Great points.
Nickname: Naturally, I don’t require anyone to agree with what the Bible says if that’s not their thing. 🙂
However, if you’re concerned about uncovering the works of Satan, I concur with RA that you ought to set your sights a bit bigger. If the devil can divide Christ’s church with a few cranky commenters online, imagine what could happen if this kind of systematic evil goes unchecked! I hope you’ll keep up the good fight and direct your passion against those who are poisoning hundreds of young people’s view of God, in the guise of an angel of light.
Eric, are you saying that all your words are from the Bible?
Eric, sorry, but by the phrase “good fight” I was under the impression Paul was referring to winning souls, just as Jesus had sent us to do. I didn’t know it meant to put our energies and time into attacking missions organizations who we think are too hard on people. “Wolves” refers to those who present heresies for personal gain. If personal gain is working 90 hours a week for decade after decade, then I guess Ron and Dave are swimming in “gain”. From the tone of your last few posts, I am finding it very difficult to believe you are accusing out of pure motives. I said “accuse”, because “rebuke” would infer you are actually talking to the person you have a problem with, not anyone who will hear you.
Nickname: Again, “[Elders] who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning” (1 Timothy 5:19-20). Not all my words are from the Bible, but those are.
As for Paul, a “good fight” usually indicates the existence of an opponent, doesn’t it? A great way to present the Gospel is to show how it’s different from corrupt or abusive religious systems; apologists (like Paul) do this all the time.
I’m sorry to say that all evidence indicates that Ron Luce and Dave Hasz are indeed “presenting heresies for personal gain.” See this very post for a prime example. Other facts: Teen Mania’s theology is specifically legalistic and effectively denies the gospel— Heresy (to be precise, Pelagianism). Hasz has lied about his income (over $80,000 just from intern housing!), while interns provide Teen Mania both a free labor force and 42% net profit beyond their living expenses— personal gain. By your own definition, that qualifies them as “wolves.”
In related news, some people are making remarks about those sins in a blog’s comment section.
Objectively, which group of people warrants more outrage from those concerned about the overall effect on the church?
The motive game is too easy. I could just as easily point out that you’re putting your energies and time into attacking people who you think are too hard on missions organizations! 😉 I like your passion, but maybe you need to rethink your priorities. If even half the evidence on this site is true, then you’re attacking the sheep for bleating about the wolves. Please reconsider.
I am sorry nickname I for one do not see Eric here being the problem. Here is a verse you may want to chew on.
Walk in Light Ephesians 5:8-13
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.
You cannot in good conscience see ALL that are in these posts and not have reservation about what TM is and has been doing. When abuse and false teaching (and yes it is false teaching when you make people feel guilty and in shame when they are not quite making the grade for Jesus) are abundantly clear, yes it is right to stand up for the Gospel, truth, and the oppressed.
By the way “good fight” actually means keeping the faith- do not give up – keep believing that Christ will keep you to the end.
What I meant earlier about the false teaching of TM – making people feel in shame and guilt for not making the grade for Jesus- ACCORDING TO THE STANDARDS and LAWS OF TM.
These verses are a must read for those still holding on the Law and freedom for those who see what mans law is.
Colossians 2:11-23
Not Legalism but Christ
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[c] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having FORGIVEN you all trespasses, 14 having WIPED OUT the handwriting of REQUIREMENTS that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has TAKEN IT OUT of the way, having NAILED IT TO THE CROSS. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
16 So let no one JUDGE you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one CHEAT you of your reward, taking delight in FALSE HUMILITY and of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “DO NOT TOUCH, DO NOT TASTE, DO NOT HANDLE,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the COMMANDMENTS AND DOCTRINES OF MEN? 23 These things indeed have an APPEARANCE of WISDOM IN SELF-IMPOSED RELIGION, FALSE HUMILITY, AND NEGLECT OF THE BODY,but are of NO VALUE against the indulgence of the flesh.
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/teen_mania.html
I stumbled across a critical entry about Teen Mania on this website
and thought I’d note it for anyone interested.
Anonymous 9:45,
For the record, I do not say that “any sort of faith is magical thinking.” I am saying something very different: i.e. magical thinking is not faith at all. And most of what I see being taught at TM is magical thinking, not faith.
To go a little deeper into the question raised by anon 9:45, James Fowler’s Stages of Faith are instructive:
Stage 0 – “Primal or Undifferentiated” faith (birth to 2 years), is characterized by an early learning of the safety of their environment (i.e. warm, safe and secure vs. hurt, neglect and abuse). If consistent nurture is experienced, one will develop a sense of trust and safety about the universe and the divine. Conversely, negative experiences will cause one to develop distrust with the universe and the divine. Transition to the next stage begins with integration of thought and languages which facilitates the use of symbols in speech and play.
Stage 1 – “Intuitive-Projective” faith (ages of three to seven), is characterized by the psyche’s unprotected exposure to the Unconscious.
Stage 2 – “Mythic-Literal” faith (mostly in school children), stage two persons have a strong belief in the justice and reciprocity of the universe, and their deities are almost always anthropomorphic.
Stage 3 – “Synthetic-Conventional” faith (arising in adolescence; aged 12 to adulthood) characterized by conformity to religious authority and the development of a personal identity. Any conflicts with one’s beliefs are ignored at this stage due to the fear of threat from inconsistencies.
Stage 4 – “Individuative-Reflective” faith (usually mid-twenties to late thirties) a stage of angst and struggle. The individual takes personal responsibility for his or her beliefs and feelings. As one is able to reflect on one’s own beliefs, there is an openness to a new complexity of faith, but this also increases the awareness of conflicts in one’s belief.
Stage 5 – “Conjunctive” faith (mid-life crisis) acknowledges paradox and transcendence relating reality behind the symbols of inherited systems. The individual resolves conflicts from previous stages by a complex understanding of a multidimensional, interdependent “truth” that cannot be explained by any particular statement.
Stage 6 – “Universalizing” faith, or what some might call “enlightenment”. The individual would treat any person with compassion as he or she views people as from a universal community, and should be treated with universal principles of love and justice.
Using this paradigm, I would say that most of what is taught and modeled at TM is probably either Stage 2 or Stage 3 faith. Some of that is to be expected due to the age of most of the people who are there, but what is troubling is that the leadership—i.e. Ron, Dave, and Heath, does not seem to have moved past that level themselves. I don’t see anyone there pointing the way to higher levels of development.
Well, first of all James Fowler’s stages of faith is just one way to look at it. He’s not the final authority on what it looks like to progress through stages of faith.
Secondly, and most importantly, as a professional you just gave an assessment of several individuals without a proper clinical assessment. Not to mention all the privacy and confidentiality ethics that you just breached by sharing your assessment on a public page.
I would suggest that you take these and any other ethics violations down. If I continue to see them, they will be reported to the licensing board.
Thanks for your input, though.
Oh, and secondly, there’s no way you’ve spent enough time with any of the leadership at TM to properly place them in Fowler’s stages of faith. I know you’re thinking “I don’t need to, I hear stories and everything that people are saying” Well, again, as a mental health professional you can’t go on secondary information. Yet another ethic violated.
To put it another way, Doug, that would be like diagnosing an alcoholic wife beating husband solely based on the stories you hear from his wife and kids. Though valid, you can’t diagnose without a SASSI or something similar.
To be clear, I haven’t diagnosed anyone. I did say that Dave reminded me of the personality disordered people I saw in prison, but I certainly have not been in a position to diagnose him with a personality disorder. Diagnosis in mental health requires a defined process, and I acknowledge that I have not gone through that process with anyone in leadership at TM. Nevertheless, I find their behavior quite troubling, and my statement stands as an expression of how I felt during our long meeting with Heath and Dave.
As to the Stages of Faith, you rightly point out that it is just a way of looking at certain things–a paradigm. Still, I feel comfortable with what I said, which is that I do not see anything coming from Ron publicly or Dave and Heath either publicly or in our meetings with them which seems to me indicative of a higher level of faith–and I do not see anyone there pointing to higher levels of development. If you can show me something in their teachings or public pronouncements that indicates otherwise, I will be happy to withdraw that statement.
Anon at 2:37, you clearly know nothing about what can and cannot be reported to the licensing board, or anything about privacy and ethics violations.
You have however, succeeded in appearing quite foolish, and I for one appreciate the amusement. Thanks for stopping by.
I know what bo don’t know!
Here’s the website:
http://www.apa.org/ethics/code/index.aspx
If in fact Doug is licensed by the APA, then there are numerous violations.
I’ll be filing a complaint this weekend.
Thanks and good bye.
Here’s one of many, just as an FYI:
Standard 9: Assessment
9.01 Bases for Assessments
(a) Psychologists base the opinions contained in their recommendations, reports, and diagnostic or evaluative statements, including forensic testimony, on information and techniques sufficient to substantiate their findings. (See also Standard 2.04, Bases for Scientific and Professional Judgments.)
(b) Except as noted in 9.01c, psychologists provide opinions of the psychological characteristics of individuals only after they have conducted an examination of the individuals adequate to support their statements or conclusions. When, despite reasonable efforts, such an examination is not practical, psychologists document the efforts they made and the result of those efforts, clarify the probable impact of their limited information on the reliability and validity of their opinions, and appropriately limit the nature and extent of their conclusions or recommendations. (See also Standards 2.01, Boundaries of Competence, and 9.06, Interpreting Assessment Results.)
You are really on a personal vendetta here – to try to find something to punish those who are speaking out against the abuses that are happening in TM. WHY? What is your purpose here? I think these opinions would be considered invalid if Doug declared TM as his patients- he is merely giving opinions, not a diagnosis.
I meant to say that Doug HAS NOT given a diagnosis to Luce and Hasz, but merely opinions- which there is not anything wrong with that.
“Some of that is to be expected due to the age of most of the people who are there, but what is troubling is that the leadership—i.e. Ron, Dave, and Heath, does not SEEM to have moved past that level themselves”
Seem is quite different then making a diagnosis- you are grasping for straws my friend.
OAnon, good luck with that complaint. Especially since Doug is a counselor, not a psychologist. So, he is more than likely licensed by ACA not APA. But, regardless, he has done nothing wrong. There is no ethical code about giving your opinion. Example, I can give my opinion that it believe Hasz show characteristics of someone who has narcissistic personality disorder. BTW, I am a social worker, my organization is NASW.
Dear Anonymous: Based on the materials you supplied to us, it is our considered professional diagnosis that you are what is known as a “Cotton-Headed Ninnymuggins.” We will be happy to refer you to an elf or other qualified professional who will be able to help you deal with this issue. Thank you for your time and best wishes for your speedy recovery.
— The APA (maybe)
y’all are getting mighty defensive. chill out people. Let the APA decide. I’m sure they’ll be contacting RA or Doug within a week or two. Let justice prevail.
Anon: first of all a name would be nice instead of going by anonymous- we would love to know where you come from.
Secondly, who is getting defensive here? You are the one coming on and making claims that Doug is being unprofessional- you are on the defensive for someone (maybe like TM)? And this is what you call getting JUSTICE- that something that Doug has said as an opinion is a crime? Boy, if this is crime then what TM has done to countless of alumni is mass atrocities.
Have I mentioned how much I love all the rich irony I find here?
Doug, a private individual, expresses a personal opinion about a guy. Anonymous is so scandalized by this (an opinion?! The horror!) that he threatens to report Doug to a professional organization to which he doesn’t belong for violating a code of ethics that doesn’t have a rule against it.
…and then Anon. says “y’all are getting mighty defensive. chill out people.”
Ahh, sweet irony, I love it so.
I have no doubt at all that justice will be done, and that the APA has a great big file for letters from cranks. Sorry, anon– better luck next time!
Is this where I get to insert “This is clearly a spiritual attack from Satan, we better pray against it y’all!”?
I agree Esther- i prayed for Doug just a little while ago.
Clearly I’m pushing your buttons!
So you admit to trolling? Hold on, let me pray against that evil spirit.
Yes, anon, you just outed yourself as a troll.
First off you admit I’m pushing your buttons. Secondly I could care less what y’all label me. The APA will have a label for you!!!!
I doubt the APA has a label for any of us, including Doug.
What, exactly, is your goal here, other than to make a fool out of yourself?
Rofl… Dave, is that you???
Anon… you are not pushing anyones buttons here- I think most here are not as ruffled as you think we are. Actually, I am sitting here with my nice cup of hot tea and quite enjoying my day.
I think you are the one whose buttons are pushed, especially when your comment has four !!!! (boy someone is angry here). And a troll is a label of anyone who comes on a blog and tries to act like a victim,uses ad hominom attacks to create arguments and not focus on the issues that are being discussed. So if you are the one that is doing that then so goes the label- it is widely used on the web for such people.
Will pray for you too and pray that the Lord gives you peace in your heart.
Esther & Truth68,
Thank you, I appreciate your prayers.
Anonymous, it’s funny you keep mentioning the APA when you have already been informed that Doug is a COUNSELOR, not a psychologist. The APA has nothing to do with counselors. So good luck getting an organization he DOESN’T EVEN BELONG TO to do anything.
Renae– Anon is a troll. Fol rol de ol dol.
Eric– yeah, I know. I have a bad habit of feeding them though. :/