Jeremy: I hesitate because everything I say is potential fodder for you RA people. But I will say something here that I feel is okay to share. My issue is with Ron (Luce) specifically. Everyone is a tool, a pawn in his militant attempt to get his vision accomplished. He is militant about the vision, Dave (Hasz) is militant about the vision, and so is anyone who sticks around for any length of time. And, when you fail to dance “good enough” for the king, he just decides you are “not a good fit.” My issue with Ron is that he seems to discard people like toilet paper when they don’t please him—his arrogance knows no bounds (he is right no matter what, and you better fall in line) and he had the compassion of a European dictator. But he’s sociopathic, so he can win anyone over to his side of things… and those that don’t aren’t a “good fit.” I mean, people give up so much to come serve Ron’s vision—lives, careers, friends, income, houses, etc., etc., etc… and when Ron is done with you, you’re out on your butt. I can name multiple people whom this is happened to. Ron is a very bad man in my eyes.
Everything flows from the top. I witnessed a lot of things and was privy to a lot of things that made me never (ever) want to advocate for the leadership of TM… or, by extension, the organization as a whole. Everyone is constantly in survival mode, while they frequently throw each other under the bus just to save their skin, and they fight for resources like hungry Africans fight for UN rice—aggressively shoving and maiming along the way. I did not handle this toxic environment well and I too got sucked into it, and it brought out the worst in me that I’ve ever seen; it’s about survival on the inside. The entire time I was there, it was toxic to my spirit, my family, and my health. It would take me two hours a night to decompress after my day at TM. No exaggeration.
But, at the same time, I don’t want to be part of bringing down an organization that has a mouthpiece as big as TM does. Ninety-nine percent of people who engage with TM will never see or experience these things… all they will see and experience is a special move of God on their lives, where many of them will surrender to His salvation. I’ve seen the Lord move too many times in the midst of things that TM has facilitated (be it HA, GE trips or ATF events)… and I don’t want to be a part of limiting that reach that no other organization in the country has at this time. This is why people give up so much and work for so little to serve TM.
TMM will fall on its own. It will fall in the court of public opinion as it continually gets more and more extreme and continues to create enemies through its militant nature and its works-based vision of holiness. Every ministry they have is declining in attendance, and attendance equals dollars, and dollars equal their ability to continue their operations. If they cannot win in the court of public opinion, they will cease to be.
To me, this is a tragedy.
43 comments:
“and they fight for resources like hungry Africans fight for UN rice—aggressively shoving and maiming along the way.”
…wait. Seriously? How is this an okay metaphor, when there are literally THOUSANDS OF OTHERS that could be used that all seem wiser as they don’t mention stereotyping starving,impoverished, and already marginalized people? Pack of wild dogs, anyone? Tigers? Heck – preschool children and Transformers stickers? Is there some well known example of African people aggressively fighting for rice that I am unaware of, because right now when I think “starving Africans” and “rice” I picture sad, malnourished children when I think I’m supposed to be picturing a pack of wolves. Which means I’m supposed to be equating an entire people group with feral animals, which is also not okay.
So many well known metaphors that don’t come laden with racism and wouldn’t have interrupted the flow of thought so drastically as to inspire this comment.
I’m not sure I would agree that 99% of people involved with TM will never experience the crazy survival mentality & brutality described here. My opinion is that almost everyone is affected. For some it may not”register” on a conscious level, but abuse and toxicity doesn’t magically turn into loveliness and life.
This is amazing. Jeremy. All I can say is thank you. If you do see this, you do not know the peace this brings.
Here’s the thing, the % you mentioned about having a God encounter isn’t accurate.. I do not know one person who has been affiliated with Teen Mania that did not have a horrific experience. What they do though, is walk away blaming themselves entirely. They hate themselves! And eventually turn away from God quite confused. That would be the view from my eye see’s.
Hearing this is such a load off. Like, I had a conversation with Ron once where he scared me so bad I wouldn’t talk about it to any of my eager friends who wanted to hear what he had to say. Now, to see he was like that everyone who stood in his way… Eye opening.
I just went to ATF and they do not preach the gospel. Well… They sorta do. They add to it. It’s gospel of salvation by works. (if you’re saved you need to go on a mission trip/save your high school/ be radical.)
As a former staff member myself I will agree with the mentality that “Its Ron’s way or the highway for you.” If something goes wrong you better be ready to CYA, with very little room for forgiveness if you made a error or to chalk something as a learning experience. And then that mentality is reapplied to interns below it in many cases. The really good staff members insulated their interns from this.
But just like the internship, for staff members its all about looking and dressing the part, having a fancy notebook, walking with the TM swagger. and those would succeed.
This is a classic description of a cult–the authoritarian, charismatic leader; the messianic vision; the sacred science; the manipulation and oppression; the sharp division between insiders and outsiders; the “means justifies the ends” ethic; and the distortion of God’s character.
I empathize with how hard it is for Jeremy to come to grips with the fact that his time there did not do himself, God, the church, American society, or the world at large much good. After you have worked so hard, sacrificed so much, and had such good intentions, you want so badly to believe that you accomplished something positive, that there was something redeeming about the experience. And, certainly, there are positives to be gleaned from even terrible situations—friends made, lessons learned, etc. But that is not enough to compensate for the amount of evil that is being done by this organization.
Doug and everyone, could you tone down the extreme rhetoric?
I understand that this is a “healing” space and people need a place to vent…but everyone, you’ve gotta understand – the harsher the rhetoric gets, the more you will see this place become polarized…feels like there’s no place here anymore for anyone in the middle.
Comments about how Teen Mania has no redeeming value…comments making extreme armchair diagnoses about the mental health of senior TM staff…it’s just incredibly polarizing.
I would gently caution everyone here: think about toning it down a smidge, or you’re going to find yourself surrounded only by people who agree completely with you…the exact thing that you (rightly) criticize TM of doing.
Anon,
I don’t recall seeing anything that’s been overstated. It is hard to reconcile how brutal TM is with the what we all initially thought we were buying into. However, the reality is it is cruel and abusive, maybe even to a greater extent than has yet been voiced.
What extreme rhetoric? The former staff member’s whose fb comments are posted made comments about his opinion of Ron and Dave, etc. based on his experiences, but he does not identify as one of the recoveting alumni on this site.
TM is a polarizing place. Yet many of us RAs are able to come to ths site and have our own opinions about TM. There is no pressure to agree with anyone else here. Some want TM shut down, some think it can be saved, etc. But we are all free to express those opinions.
@Anon.
That’s interesting.
I mean, I can definitely see what you’re saying and after thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that – this blog has been through A LOT.
There have been conference calls, contact, media coverage. A nationwide documentary.
A lot of the new people on this blog heard about it because of some outside source stating the position the blog has taken.
I dunno, it was AWESOME in the beginning because everyone was so blown away that they could actually be accepted and face this giant. But it is a giant, and you can’t keep hiding in the shadows.
Now I think its gone a little big further than, “lets just kiss the scrape on your knee.”
Thoughts?
PLUS- there are the forums, which are a great place to discuss. and a facebook page too.
Hmmm. I don’t want to be guilty of “extreme rhetoric,” but I don’t really see my last comment as being that extreme. I actually see it as sort of a balanced statement, in which I express some empathy for Jeremy who is struggling with the implications of what he already knows to be true. I also acknowledge that there are goods to be gleaned from terrible experiences. I suppose I could have made that last sentence read, “…that is not enough to compensate for the amount of DAMAGE that is being done by this organization,” instead of “…that is not enough to compensate for the amount of EVIL that is being done by this organization.” Still, I am old enough to remember some of the civil rights struggles in the 60’s. There was tremendous pressure on people who were fighting for their basic rights not to use extreme rhetoric. It was upsetting to the moderate people in the middle, which was basically the majority of white people who did not want things to change too quickly.
This is a different Anon than the extreme rhetoric one. I however do feel that you all are a little blinded in some respects. I for one, have had both good and bad experiences at TMM and the good far outweigh the bad.
I think it was Shiloh that said they’ve never met anybody who had a good experience. There’s a website called flourishingalumni.com that lists several.
For the statement RA made earlier that everybody is abused there and sometimes it just takes years for them to recognize it, that’s hogwash. My first trip with TMM was in 1998 and I’ve been involved on a consistent basis ever since. I was never abused and neglected. Negative experiences? Absolutely. Abused? Not at all.
You guys are very biased, and rightfully so. However, you have to leave those biases behind to accomplish your goal.
I think this is a good conversation to have.
One clarification first, where have i said all interns are abused?
Let me know and i will correct it. I do not believe that. I believe many and perhaps most are abused.
If I remember correctly there are 13 stories on the flourishing alumni site.
Only one earlier then 2003.
I also personally know two of them. And one of them was one of the reasons I left Teen Mania because they treated her so terribly. so I’m VERY surprised to see that she thinks they way they treated her was ok.
There is a spectrum of opinion here. Some think tmshould just make adjustments while others feel it should be shut down… I think its only fair for the comment section to reflect that. Im not sure i understand why that would make moderate voices feel unwelcome? Ive never deleted their comments nor indicated that they are unwelcome.
With that in mind, in order to be respected any moderate opinion will need to be backed up w fact as to why gross and criel abuse and lying should be tolerated or minimized.
Please forgive typos. Im on my phone
Shiloh, that’s true, however in my circle of friends I can name quite a few from the early 2000’s late 90’s that had positive experiences. For obvious reasons I’m not going to name them on here, so you’ll just have to take my word for it. Just off the top of my head I can think of 5.
RA, I’ll take some time to look through and find that comment you made. It might take me a bit to come up with it, but I do remember somebody saying that. I could be thinking of someone else that said it though.
Stick to your guns, RA. You’ve got a “good” thing going, just don’t let it become so biased that you lose those of us who still believe in the good that can come out of TMM.
I am happy to take on the role of designated bomb thrower, while others try to parse how much lying and abuse should be winked at. I guess it comes from my experiences with dozens of other abusive religious organizations. The pattern here is the same.
In RA’s defense, exactly how do you propose she not “let it become so biased that (she) lose(s) those of (you) who still believe in the good that can come out of TMM.” Should she censor or edit other people’s comments? Are you saying she should control the outcome of discussion? Your suggestion actually comes from an authoritarian perspective, anon. I wonder where you acquired that?
Sometimes the devil will use leaders to lead astray the people who hunger for God. Remember there is a battle between God and the devil for the souls of men. Has anyone read in Isaiah 9:14-16? God will cut both the head and the tail. The prophets who TEACH LIES are the tail! People don’t always go by your leaders or pastors or whatever. We have to read and search for the word of God ourselves sometimes! Don’t go by human teachings but the teachings of the Lord instead. True leaders are put in church to help guide us, but we should always check with the bible and also pray. Pray for the holy spirit to be present and when your pastor or leader start to speak may it be God who places the word on his tongue. Revelation 22:18 and deuteronomy 4:2. And again don’t just go off by what I say either, but read it for yourself. When you seek for truth, you will find it. May God bless you.
Remember Herman Cain? When allegations surfaced of sexual harassment from his workers, his response was, and I quote, “For every one person that comes forward with a false accusation, there are probably thousands who would say none of that sort of activity ever came from Herman Cain.”
As though he seriously expected people to think, “Oh, well maybe he harassed those women, but there are thousands of women he didn’t harass, so that’s all right, then!”
It sounds just as silly when Teen Mania says it.
Abuse is abuse. Those who abuse are abusers. Jesus said, “In as much as you did it to the least of these, you did it to me.”
Anon- you are spot on!
I have been teaching my kids that anything that does not square up with Scripture then leave it. Trust the Word and trust in prayer. Many run here and there searching to find a closer walk with God- The Holy Spirit dwells in those who believe in Jesus Christ. He is right there with you- you find the Lord by trusting in Him and submitting your life to Him. He is the ONE that changes you- not some pastor or leader or organization. He is only interested in your heart and what comes out of it- not works, feeding the poor, prophesying, speaking in tongues, healings. He is interested in the fruits of the Spirit, like love, patience, kindness, long-suffering, joy, peace, gentleness. When we grow in these things and love the Lord with all our heart- these good works will flow out of the abundance of our hearts. But they won’t be so that we can say “Hey, look at me and see what a great person I am”- that becomes self-righteousness.
What I have heard from many who have come on here claiming for THEMSELVES (notice the SELF part) of how wonderful TM was for THEM- Great! but did you ever give consideration or compassion for the ones who were abused and oppressed? This is what this blog is here for and it is to give comfort and an ear.
RA and Doug- I commend you for what you are doing here and standing by it. There is definitely enough evidence to show the abuses that are occurring at TM.
If we must talk about numbers, it’s interesting that Concerned Alumni currently outnumber “Flourishing Alumni” 4 to 1.
i’m just guessing, but i think the reaction was to doug saying, “… And, certainly, there are positives to be gleaned from even terrible situations—friends made, lessons learned, etc. But that is not enough to compensate for the amount of evil that is being done by this organization.”
if all someone does is read this blog, then the evil is apparent…it’s shocking and horrifying, but this blog is not the entire story.
LET ME BE CLEAR: just because some people have not experienced pain or abuse or mistreatment because of TM, does not mean that the ones who have should be silenced or marginalized IN ANY WAY. but i do know…a LOT…of people from my class who still think TM is great and who would say, overall, that they had a positive experience. i know a lot of people who are in my shoes and want nothing to do with it.
but jeremy even said…despite decrying the leadership and refering to the ministry as a machine…that he has seen God move far too many times to completely write TM off.
again, i’m GUESSING…at what first anon meant when he/she said “polarizing”…but that’s what i would have meant if i’d made the same request. and i completely agree with this, “I would gently caution everyone here: think about toning it down a smidge, or you’re going to find yourself surrounded only by people who agree completely with you…the exact thing that you (rightly) criticize TM of doing.”
**final disclaimer: i don’t think it’s ok to silence anyone’s voice or treat anyone poorly. i think there are major problems, and, in fact, i think the problems are systemic and not fixable, BUT…i don’t see grace in this place anymore, unless it is for someone sharing their story or someone saying that TM should cease to exist.**
“BUT…i don’t see grace in this place anymore, unless it is for someone sharing their story or someone saying that TM should cease to exist.”
A rather graceless comment, I think. I see plenty of grace here.
My perspective is that of an outsider. I do not have the good experiences at TM to inform my view of the place like some of the former interns. I can relate, though, because I had plenty of positive experiences at the quasi-Christian cult I once belonged to.
For the record, though, let me say that I understand that people had a range of experiences. Some people had mostly positive experiences, some mostly negative, and most people probably had a mixture of both positive and negative. I get that. There are people who have good experiences in every cult and spiritually abusive organization. If it was all bad all the time, nobody would stay.
What I bring to the discussion is my experience as a counselor and anti-cult activist who has dealt with the damaged disciples from a number of cults and spiritually abusive organizations. After awhile, you notice the patterns of deception, exploitation, authoritarianism, and abuse. Teen Mania fits the profile.
gc1998 – I’m the anon that kicked this discussion off – that’s more or less what I meant. My intent was not to advocate that people don’t express their views or people who were wronged stay silent. I was just suggesting that some of the harsh rhetoric I’ve seen people use get toned down a bit.
Basically, it just seems like neither side is talking to the other anymore (not saying that’s RA or the RA community’s fault), and it makes me sad.
I don’t want anyone to throw bombs at anybody. I’d like people to talk, discuss, repent, change, and grow.
Anon, I have seen a lot of even-handed comments made by people on this blog. Personally, I have been quite critical of Teen Mania, but the worst and most offensive comments have come from the trolls who come here to defend Teen Mania and to denigrate the experiences and perspective of people who are hurting.
Just because there are two opposing parties in a disagreement that does not necessarily mean that the two sides are morally equivalent. Israel, which is fighting for its right to exist, is not morally equivalent to the radical Palestinians which would deny it that right. People who come here to process the pain they have as a result of the abuse they experienced are not necessarily morally equivalent to the people who want to defend the abusive system which hurt them.
As a matter of fact, I think it would be a great idea if some people would “talk, discuss, repent, change, and grow.” Wendy and I went out to Garden Valley and had a long meeting with Dave and Heath, but repenting, changing, and growing were absolutely the last things they were interested in.
“Basically, it just seems like neither side is talking to the other anymore (not saying that’s RA or the RA community’s fault), and it makes me sad.”
agreed. i mean. it’s been demonstrated over and over again that there’s no point, but i don’t see much difference in the approach/tone on either side at this point. and THAT makes me sad.
A friend of mine recently wrote this blog post on the subject of “change,” and its applicability to TM is rather striking:
“As far as the restaurant owners and chefs on Kitchen Nightmares, what they really want is for Ramsey to tell them how awesome their restaurant is, how awesome the food is, et cetera, and that the problem is the ignorance of the clientele. Usually, the restaurants are a mess in more ways than financial, the food is atrocious, and the service is poor. They don’t want to hear that. That would require real change on their part. It’s easier on their psyche to believe that the restaurant is empty because the customers are ignorant. Lots of denial. …”
http://thecommandmentsofmen.blogspot.com/2012/03/change.html
gc 1998:
I agree. I don’t want to be holier than TM, or even “righter”. I want to be softer. Because even though they are abusive, they are still god’s children.
There is a time for softness and there is a time for anger.
There is no “one size fits all” solution to this problem.
gc1998 says, “but i don’t see much difference in the approach/tone on either side at this point.”
There is not a moral equivalency between the two sides. It is inappropriate to compare the tone of people who are trying to stand up for their rights and their dignity with the tone of those who would deny those rights.
if you follow that logic, though, then “the ends justify the means”, which is TM’s argument for the way they treat people…they believe they are doing God’s work, and if some people get chewed up and spit out along the way, that’s sad, but FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM!
if RA stands for love and acceptance and grace and healing…that needs to be available to everyone…Love doesn’t have an agenda other than itself. Love is patient. Love is kind. Love is gentle.
i agree with the perspective about TM…i think it’s no bueno…in just about any sense. i don’t believe in what they’re doing anymore, and i DO believe RA is providing an important place for people who’ve been spit out by the machine, i’m just not really comfortable with the tone it’s taken lately. there is a way to stand up for yourself with grace and respect and dignity and Love…and i think jumping all over someone who is not vehemently anti-TM, or who is trying to keep an open mind or…i dunno…which i have seen happen time and time again (for instance, the way i was called “graceless” for having the nerve to express discomfort with some things about the RA site) is not conducive to Love.
i’ve been reading/commenting on this site since it started, pretty much, and it was incredibly helpful to me in processing the “christian mindfuck” that TM put on me. i have made friends, deepened other friendships…but i don’t like what it has become. and i have every right to say that. and saying that doesn’t negate anyone’s pain or experience.
well said gc1998, I agree with you. I think in many ways the way that we say TM treats people is the exact way we treat people…not always but we are definitely guilty of it whether we want to admit to it or not
I think the problem (if you can call it that) comes partly from the fact that this started as a support/recovery group. At some point, it also became a place to debate the merits at TM – and those goals are not always in sync with each other. People in the midst of processing their very raw emotions should not be expected to respond graciously to their abusers (or those who defend them) while they are in the midst of recovery…There is a time and a place for everything. There is a time for gracious debate on both sides and there is a time for TM defenders to leave people alone to process their hurt, pain and anger – without making it worse by defending the system that traumatized them.
PS – The idea that people on this site treat others the same way TM does is laughable. There is no systemic abuse here, no teaching people they are worthless, no demand that they give all their time, money and talent….please, be more reasonable with your statements.
well laugh all you want then I guess but there are people on this site, yourself included RA that make people feel stupid by your comments because they may not fully agree with you even if they are not full supporters. I myself could care less about TM and was a full supporter of the RA community however have moved on as of late. When I say that you this site treats others the same way TM does is that if someone doesn’t full agree they are belittled and debated to the point where they don’t even want to be a part anymore. This used to be a group focused on healing and recovery and I loved it for that but it seems to have moved away from that focus in a very big way.
No need for a response, those are just my thoughts.
gc1998 says: if you follow that logic, though, then “the ends justify the means”
Huh? I don’t think I’ve said anything like that at all. Making a distinction between people who are taking up for themselves and those who would put them down is not saying that the end justifies the means.
gc1998 says: for instance, the way i was called “graceless” for having the nerve to express discomfort with some things about the RA site
I did not call you graceless. I said that a comment you made was rather graceless. I am sure you, personally, are not graceless.
My feedback to you is that when you make broad-brush statements like, “i’m just not really comfortable with the tone it’s taken lately” that comes across (to me, anyway) as you being very superior and somewhat judgmental. If I have said things where my tone is not appropriate, it would be more helpful for you to point out the specific statement—that way, if I need to clarify something or even apologize, I can do that. But there is not a way to really respond to amorphous, global statements about the “tone” of the discussion, and so such statements are just irritating and are thus likely to produce more of the kind of rhetoric that you find offensive.
forgive my grammar errors…I was typing on an IPAD 🙂
Doug your statements above sound like an answer David Hasz would give
How so, anon?
For the record, the last couple of Anon replies have not been me, the Masked Anon of Great Mystery, who kicked off the discussion on tone and clarified what I was saying after GC replied to it. The last thing that was me was the March 2, 11:06 comment.
I’ll use a name or something from now on to avoid confusion.
RA, I appreciate the situation you’re in. You started this as a recovery group, and it ended up filling a void you may have never meant for it to fill. I get that. I just wish things had gone differently with TM and their alumni.
A few observations.
First, “Tone” is highly subjective, a fact which manipulators (including TM leadership) have often used to their advantage. “TM staffers sexually harassed people!” “You need to watch your accusatory tone.” Facts deflected, victim blamed, whistleblower made defensive–check! So it’s understandable that that idea raises some hackles, if not being an outright trigger.
However, I think we all can agree that civility is a virtue that it doesn’t do anyone harm to cultivate. And, frankly, surpassing TM and their lackeys in it is a very low bar. (Let’s be clear– all the most inflammatory and aggressive comments I’ve ever seen here have come from TM supporters. So it’s a bit odd when the “recovering alumni” get singled out for their tone.) If TM wants to paint this site as “a handful of bitter alumni with an agenda” or whatever, all the more reason to demonstrate they’re wrong.
I’d also point out that, for many people, seeing evidence of HA’s abuses is a big step in the healing process. I’ve seen many comments such as “Thank goodness I wasn’t alone in thinking there was something wrong with TM! I always thought I was crazy!”– see Shiloh’s first comment above, for instance. Seeing that the problem is with the abusive actions can be very healing and liberating for those on the receiving end. In that respect, this site is frankly one of the best I’ve ever seen.
mifune says: I’ll use a name or something from now on to avoid confusion.
Greatly appreciated!