Honor Academy interns are not allowed to date during their first year at Teen Mania. You might be surprised to find that I don’t have a problem with the idea behind that guideline. The problem is how its enforced and built into the culture at the HA and equated with sin.
Did you know that many interns are even afraid to be seen walking down the sidewalk with only a member of the opposite sex? Does that sound healthy to you? Last fall, an intern blogged about the Gauntlet week message that Dave Hasz gave to the intern class:
Is there anything healthy about that suggestion? It doesn’t even matter if Dave Hasz meant it as a joke because I can guarantee you that many, if not most, interns took it very seriously. And what kind of Godly man would even joke about calling the people in his care such names?
If a male intern at the HA tells a female intern that he has feelings for her – how does that make him a creep? It doesn’t. It might not be the wisest course of action – but that alone is certainly not filthy or disgusting. And it does not warrant this kind of a response.
If this were an isolated incident, it wouldn’t be worth mentioning. But sadly, Dave Hasz’s constant attempts at humiliating interns for normal emotions goes far beyond just this topic. (Wicked sinner, anyone?) By belittling their humanity, interns begin to feel dirty for normal human reactions. The message easily becomes “YOU are bad.”
And a lot of us internalized this message.
So we reject ourselves. Our inability to accept our humanity and all that comes with it – our limitations and our weaknesses – means we live with self-loathing and an ever present condemnation over our inability to be a super-Christian (whatever that is).
Contrary to the culture of the HA, self-loathing is actually not a fruit of the Spirit. God accepts us just as we are and He wants us to accept ourselves, too.
PS – On an ironic note, on the few occasions that Jesus called people derogatory names, it was always directed towards the religious establishment because they were harming those in their care. Hmmm…
30 comments:
Yeah, I definitely understand the rule. And I think it was great to not be focused on relationships that year… but I WAS focused on being above reproach all the time, mistrustful of guys on campus (even my friends) and generally disconnected with the other sex.
I think keeping the focus off of dating… yet developing better ways of “dealing with” attraction etc. has to be possible. But I’m always going to be in favor of a balanced lifestyle as opposed to something more… RADICAL.
It makes me especially sad… because I’ve seen how it can be handled in a healthy way. When I was an intern… I had “feelings” for a friend outside of the internship that I’d met at church. I liked him. A lot. So I spoke to my core adviser about it. She A) Validated my feelings (“He’s an amazing person. I see why you feel that way.”) B) Treated me like an adult and C) Trusted me. It felt so great to just be open and honest about it. And I never had to worry or stress from that moment on. I didn’t have to stop hanging out with him. But I was held accountable to how much time that was… and as my CA was someone I trusted and respected… I accepted her thoughts and concerns as they came. The breakdown happens when you consider that most CA’s aren’t this awesome (yes, I’m biased) and are more likely to inundate you with the typical Teen Mania silliness. But it’s proof that with the right people, healthy options are available. I married that guy years later. Thank goodness my CA encouraged me to be balanced and level-headed… instead of thrashing me and shaming me for struggling while I should have been “focusing on God”.
As to what Dave said… I don’t know. Was he talking about guys in general… or guys within the internship? I had guy friends treat me inappropriately while I was an intern. Saying really ambiguous things… using subtle hints… I admit I didn’t think very kindly on those guys. Knowing that we’d made certain commitments… I can say that those guys did NOT have my best interests in mind. So while I think Dave should be more careful about how he communicates things… I see where he’s coming from in a messed up sort of way. Again, in that situation I confided in my CA. And felt like a burden was taken off of me once I did.
Wow, what a rush of emotion. While I believe that everything works out in the end… including my second-year-rejection… I still get sad about never being able to be a core adviser when I think about what she was in my life that year.
February 23, 2011 9:00 AM
Thinks A Lot said…
When DH gave the girls this talk my year, I took it in the opposite direction. Completely, feeling like I was a “stumbling block” to the guys. I internalized this talk to mean that if a guy were to have feelings for me, then it was because I was leading him on.Probably for wearing my purse acrossed my chest or something (rolls eyes). In fact, I remember something being said along those lines. I had an amazing brother core (and core) but I didn’t get to know most of them because I was so afraid of becoming that “wicked” girl who made the guys feel something.
Before the internship, I spent more time with the guys. My best friend was a guy from 3rd grade to that point. After the internship, I rarely hung out with him anymore because this mentality was so strongly driven into my heart.
@RA You are right for saying, “By belittling their humanity, interns begin to feel dirty for normal human reactions. The message easily becomes “YOU are bad.”
In my life, the “YOU are bad” message seeped into more areas of my life than just relationships. It becomes crippling.
February 23, 2011 9:36 AM
heartsfire said…
Ugh I remember this talk clearly. It’s one of things that made my group of friends the most uncomfortable because there were 7 or 8 of us starting that August that had all been on the same Missions trip that summer, since we had spent almost 6 weeks either with each other 24/7 or calling each other every day ect we had gotten super close. Three of the girls and all of our guys ended up in the same Core family and we were so excited to stay with people we already knew and loved. From that moment on several of us almost were afraid to touch each other. Where the day before we had been making pyramids outside and being goofy like we had been friends for years not just a month after that speech the guys acted like if they were seen alone with “just us” they would get kicked out and who could possibly blame them.
February 23, 2011 10:13 AM
Anonymous said…
Probably for wearing my purse acrossed my chest
I actually had very deep bruising in my left breast from wearing a heavy messenger bag strap over it rather than logically, across my chest.
I’m actually surprised they haven’t come out with HA uniforms yet. Burkas perhaps?
February 23, 2011 11:04 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Are you guys saying that TM leadership specifically told you not to wear a purse across your chest?
February 23, 2011 11:07 AM
Stacy said…
I SOOOOOO remember that I was told not to wear my purse across my chest because of the way it looked and would cause guys to stumble. I was so brainwashed that I even gave that same advice to a group of young girls at my church after I left the internship. Sick.
February 23, 2011 11:22 AM
layne said…
RA – Yes, you were not allowed to wear a purse across your chest because it (I guess) made your boobs stand out. Or brought attention to them? Boys couldn’t handle it.
The HA is all about punishing ladies for the sake of the boys.
Thinks a lot – I had the exact same viewpoint. We were the stumbling blocks, not the boys.
February 23, 2011 11:47 AM
hecametolifttheshame said…
I have a larger chest and there is no way of hiding it. I too was told not to wear my purse across my chest because that would draw attention and make male interns stumble. I was told this by several peer interns as well as the Graduate Intern who lived in my room.
About relationships, I had a boyfriend back home who I broke up with to come to the internship. He was my very best friend for 2 years before we ever dated. He was part of my family and I was part of his. I was told by my CA and other leaders to cut off communication with him as he was writing me letters and ending it with “I know I’m not supposed to say this, but I love you”. The letters were mostly about how youth group was going, his family, etc. He was the first boy I ever loved. I began to feel like he was dirty, a loser, disgusting for even having HAD a boyfriend in the first place. So I treated him horribly. I wrote him an angry letter which my CA approved telling him to never write me a letter again if he couldn’t control himself. He sent me a sad letter saying it was better for us not to be friends, because it was hurting him too much that I had turned into a different person in 3 short months. He included a check for $500, money he personally had pledged to support my tuition. What integrity he had! What outrageous condemnation I was taught to have for him! I tried to apologize in person at Christmas, however, he was too hurt, and even left our youth group as a result. He was a very sensitive person, and like I said, I was part of his family, and he, mine. I begged him to forgive me for my arrogance, but he and I were never friends again. And he never came back to the Lord. I saw him last year at a wedding. It’s been 12 years since this happened. He has dead eyes, sad eyes, and I know that while his choices are not my fault, my unloving behavior caused a wound in him that destroyed part of his heart and allowed an opening for the enemy to steal from him. How very sad this attitude at HA causes interns to “righteously” hurt others in the name of purity.
February 23, 2011 11:54 AM
Thinks A Lot said…
@RA Yes. We were told not to wear our straps acrossed our chest. There was a whole list of things we were not supposed to do as “Women of God” “Sisters of the Brothers in God.” (Laughing a little).
Also, When I was at the internship it was encouraged for girls to wear A-Shirts under their top shirt, just incase. That got mega hot. I just stopped wearing those this year. FREEDOM!!
February 23, 2011 1:24 PM
Thinks A Lot said…
I didn’t mean to hijack the spread in the other direction.
I really hope to hear from some guys on how this talk affected them. I can’t imagine what a loving guy would feel after being rejected by just telling someone that they liked them? Or even wanting to be friends with a girl and us, girls running away from them to keep a ” Godly appearance?” Isn’t quite a big deal to guys to be accepted by girls in some sense? Even if it is just as friends?
February 23, 2011 1:44 PM
Elizabeth said…
Since my class was the first class at the GV property we didn’t really have the talk other classes had, that I can remember. We definitely went over the rules about no dating etc. and wanting to avoid the appearance of impropriety with those of the opposite sex, but it wasn’t like what I am reading about here. Of course, the isolation and close proximity of Interns at GV became realized our year and so I think many events that took place our year created/cause a lot of new rules and speeches for future classes. TM hadn’t ever experienced this type of environment in Tulsa as they lived in apartments in a city.
However in our graduation session, Dave talked about how men were easily susceptible to visual stimulation and that they didn’t pick up on subtlety. So we women needed to be direct/blunt with men in order to not lead them on. I took that information to heart and so anytime I felt something was going on with a guy I was blunt. Even when it came time to decide to date my now husband. After a month of corresponding with my now husband I asked him, What he wanted from this relationship. I shouldn’t have put him in that position but I wasn’t sure about where we were going and I wanted to be honorable to what I had learned/heard/internalized at TM. Thankfully my husband was/is a patient/loving man, who was also an alumni and understood where I was coming from even if it was wrong and backwards.
February 23, 2011 1:56 PM
Eric said…
Juxtapose this post with this line from Stacy’s Story: “We were encouraged to marry other interns someday because we’d have better marriages.”
So: interns are like your brothers or sisters, so it’s offensive and creepy and sinful and incestuous if they have any romantic feelings for you, and you should marry them.
Now that’s a good recipe for a better marriage!
February 23, 2011 2:03 PM
Eric said…
Also, the whole idea of “revealing” clothes “causing men to stumble” is cow manure. For instance, in Egypt, where women are required to dress a whole lot more conservatively than Americans, 83% of women say they have experienced sexual harassment. (Link.) 83 f***ing percent. In a country where most of them are nearly completely covered.
Legalism, not immodesty, is what causes people to stumble.
February 23, 2011 2:43 PM
jeff said…
I think you are really, really onto something with this one RA. It may not be as extreme as in the case with my cult; the Way International; but I am certain that nothing good can come from a negative, reactionary, and thoughtless handling of men/women relations in any ministry.
I have no doubt that you gals are right in thinking misogyny (that is bad treatment of women coming from the members of “The He-man Woman Haters Club”) characterizes how you were treated. But here women hating men is also being promoted.
No doubt in my mind that many of you all were hurting after having such thoughtless and cruel things given to you as supposed examples of good behavior.
And that’s not even mentioning the truth that being told to ignore relationships with the opposite sex isn’t even one of God’s commandments in the first place. Which IMO left apparently many of you hurting from hatred born of fleshy attempts to hold to a stupid man’s standard, not God’s.
February 23, 2011 2:53 PM
Music.is.passion said…
Maybe its just me…but does it seem like women always get the blame? at least as far as TM? like because she wore a strap across her chest, it COULD cause a guy to stumble? so what happens when these “men” go out into the real world where there are 16 year old girls dressed like strippers in Applebee’s?
Why is the focus so much on the woman’s behavior, and not on the guys? Should they not guard their own hearts?
I believe I remember a post where RL was talking about porn, and how a woman can’t blame her husband for looking at it if she doesn’t keep herself looking perfect…really?
This is the same as the people caught in adultery in Iran, they are stoned. Men are buried to their waist…women to their necks. Men have a chance to explain and make a get away. no such luck for the women…
Although TM may not be stoning people, it is the same attitude. This is not women “submitting” to their husbands, this is about women being viewed as a sub par human being… because by being a woman, you are clearly evil.
February 23, 2011 5:08 PM
Thinks A Lot said…
@ Jeff
I’m not sure why you wrote this.
“But here women hating men is also being promoted.”
I think RA’s post was taking a stand for the guys not against them.
Truly, what I wrote wasn’t meant to be hateful to men. I was just stating what I felt while at the HA and years post the HA. Excuse me for my sarcasm about “the strap.” It contributed in a small way to the bondage of this speech that DH gives each year.
I also chuckled about the “Sisters of the Brothers of God” for some of the same reason that Eric P. wrote,
“So: interns are like your brothers or sisters, so it’s offensive and creepy and sinful and incestuous if they have any romantic feelings for you, and you should marry them.”
Sorry to all the guys who read my comment and felt condemned in anyway. Once again my writing skills are lacking. You Guys ROCK!!
February 23, 2011 5:38 PM
jeff said…
MISUNDERSTANDING Thinks A Lot, that’s all.
When I wrote,”But here women hating men is also being promoted.” what I was referring to was RA’s recording that Hasz said,”Dave Hasz, a couple nights after we arrived, went over the rules. Of course the one of which requires us not to date this year. His words were, “Girls, if a guy approaches you and tells you that he has feelings for you….you say “get away you, creep…I’m your sister (in Christ)”…and then you run away as fast as you can.””
So the hatred of men I was referring to wasn’t RA’s words at all, but my opinion of what Hasz’s instruction amounted to.
If that doesn’t clear it up just let me know.
February 23, 2011 6:01 PM
Thinks A Lot said…
OHHHHH. So sorry about that Jeff. I knew I must have read that wrong after reading other comments that you have made on the blog. Thanks for clearing that up.
I’m always worried that I’ve said something that may hurt someone.
Big Smiles.
February 23, 2011 6:21 PM
jeff said…
NO problem Thinks A Lot, I’m just glad you said something so I could clarify things.
Big Smiles right back at you.
February 23, 2011 6:26 PM
Krista said…
RA’s right, the overall message ends up being, “YOU are bad” if you don’t act the way the HA wants you to. Therefore, everyone ends up just putting on a show and and repressing how they really feel. Reminds me of one of my favorite Ben Folds Five songs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k4Lb-yBwQs
February 23, 2011 6:32 PM
littlegraygirl said…
I remember the women being told in a meeting not to do things like tuck your sunglasses into your shirt collar in front, because it brings attention to our breasts.
I think the HA’s handling of gender issues is terribly ill-informed and irresponsible, and it has seriously damaged both men and women, their relationships, how they see themselves, and how they view the opposite gender. And the sad thing is, most of them will never realize it. 🙁
There is SOOOO much that could be said about this topic….but I’m overwhelmed to the point that I’m not even going to try to start right now.
I just want to say one thing: As much as it sucks as a woman to be held responsible for the men’s shortcomings, I would imagine that it sucks as a man to be given so very little credit….
February 23, 2011 6:56 PM
Micheal McComber said…
if you looked at a girl you would get confronted.
i had some great friendships with some girls on campus. I would have to say one was my bestest friend. So if i hung out with her. I would get campused. My year i was campused for a total of 6 weeks ( that is no weekends going off campus )
also during my year not all guys/girl were held to the same standard by leadership. there were guys/girl that could pretty much get away with anything. if i did the smallest thing it was dish duty and another weekend campused. (I would have to call them the golden interns who could do no wrong) but cause of them i felt I could do no right. The message is you are wrong, and weak so there for God can not use you. I have to agree with littlegraygirl she hit the nail on the head with
“I think the HA’s handling of gender issues is terribly ill-informed and irresponsible, and it has seriously damaged both men and women, their relationships, how they see themselves, and how they view the opposite gender. And the sad thing is, most of them will never realize it.”
February 23, 2011 7:49 PM
phoenix said…
I have often wondered if the humiliation and self loathing that DH dishes out is a result of insecurities he has. Part of my has never cared about TM’s/DH’s ‘dating suggestions’, the other part of me couldn’t figure out how to let go of it.
LGG I think you summed it up perfectly, what the HA is doing/handling relationships is truly damaging.
MM – one a bestie always a bestie. At no point were you weak or wrong.
February 23, 2011 10:59 PM
Ben said…
this one affected me less than many others because I’d already decided on my own that I didn’t want to date anyone until I was ready to move toward marriage. that said, I was definitely skiddish about any physical contact with a girl. i also avoided spending time with girls so i wouldn’t risk developing a crush, and because I always thought that the girls would think I had poor motives and was dishonorable.
that did wonders for my interactions with girls afterwards. :\
February 24, 2011 9:21 AM
julie said…
The most confusing thing is there is a conflicting message here. Women are told to be attractive (“paint your barn,” dress neatly and stylishly, those pants are too baggy) but not to be attractive to anyone (you’re wearing too much makeup, your purse strap has shown us you have boobs!). It’s impossible to live up to both! While I’m getting confronted for not wearing makeup, my roommate is getting confronted that her makeup makes her too attractive! It’s enough to make anyone confused and crazy…and all of it stresses outer appearance too much!
February 24, 2011 9:46 AM
mouse said…
Excellent point julie
February 24, 2011 10:17 AM
gracemakesfree said…
Ok – just like the thing with Emmie encouraging EVERYONE to go to the mission field, I think Dave is projecting here as well. I think he, more or less, struggles with these issues and he assumes that means all men struggle with them as well.
Believe me – I understand that men are stimulated by what they see. From what I know of men, a woman can be covered up from head to toe and they still may wonder “what’s underneath” … men just have to discipline their minds to not go there.
I really don’t like how HA puts the emphasis / blame on the women – teach these men to be responsible for their actions.
I think this sort of thinking also makes women think that every man out there is just trying to get her clothes off (which, I understand there is a great majority of men who do think that way), but it’s just something that women should be aware of, they shouldn’t have to live under some legalistic rules.
I am not responsible for someone else’s thoughts, or actions. I am responsible for my own. And that is between me and God – period.
February 24, 2011 10:34 AM
LisaMarie said…
As soon as I read this blog post, my mind immediately went to how much the HA made me struggle with the fact that I am a woman with a feminine body that is attractive to men. At the HA and for awhile after, i felt like all my body was good for was making good little christian boys stumble when they are just trying to defeat lust and all i did was making hard simply by BEING a woman. Ugh.
A book that’s help me a ton in coming back to a healthier understanding of this is “real sex” by lauren winner. I highly recommend it.
February 24, 2011 1:14 PM
Curious George said…
Excellent Points everyone. We were taught the whole year to stay away from the the opposite sex. Then in debriefing with four days left, we were told we should marry someone from the HA and that we should already have someone in mind and should start making plans for after the internship. Goofy
February 26, 2011 2:57 AM
Brad said…
I definitely identify (and am still processing through) years of self-loathing. This didn’t even come or start from TM… it started with religion in general.
Thanks for addressing this.
March 2, 2011 12:40 PM