October 18, 2012
Guest Post: Teen Mania’s Version of Love
- Love crosses boundaries. Love is messy. It doesn’t fit into a box or our best-laid plans.
- Love is the birthright of everyone on this planet—it’s not something we work to earn or be worthy enough to receive.
- Love is worth fighting for and it’s worth the pain it takes to get it. But love is also natural and easy–we were born to love.
- Love isn’t perfect. And that’s okay.
- Loving our community doesn’t require a sermon. Nor does it require drawing attention to ourselves or religion. It simply requires doing something that people need or could be useful to others.
- Love can surprise you with a plan of its own. You don’t have to make it happen and be in control.
- Love makes us foolish and a little bit of foolishness can be magic.
- It’s okay to hope for the type of love you want, to dream of and desire romance.
- Sex doesn’t need to be scary or weird. It’s even okay to enjoy it. You don’t have to worry if you’re doing it wrong because Ron Luce said your preferences are bad!
- Even good people do stupid things and hurt the ones they love.
- You don’t have to be ashamed if you’re divorced. You haven’t lost your chance to be loved.
- Loving and instructing do not always go hand in hand. Even a “confrontation in love” can be something someone never had any business saying to you.
- Love does not excuse abuse—that includes emotional and spiritual abuse too!
Among my deepest regrets after Teen Mania is buying into their idea of love. Love at the internship was all about pain—I worked beyond my limits because I loved God. God pushed me past the needs of my body and soul because he loved me. I felt lonely and far away from God because he was revealing sin in my life. Retreat facilitators called me names because they were doing it out of love. Daily confrontations happened to me because I was such a bad person, and my confronters all were speaking out of love to guide me to be a good person.
26 comments:
“In my mind, I believed that if I punished myself by being with someone I didn’t quite love as much as I’d wanted to love someone, I wouldn’t be taking a good man away from a girl who was better than me. Who actually deserved his love. It also meant that I wasn’t basing love on a feeling. When I finally lived in an extremely unhappy marriage, I believe that there was no way out, and
it was my lot in life. I believed that making the choice to stay with a liar and a cheater was even a form of obedience to God.”
Wow….this has been my experience too. Thank you for putting words to it. I am finally out.
I actually agree with a lot of what TM discussed (or taught) about
love–not everything, and not necessarily how it was translated or played out, but hey… has any leader or program ever been perfect?
My issue is more with the underlining/unspoken legalistic attitude
toward “love” according to a set of rules and the external displays of those either approved or unapproved by those rules. Put bluntly–and I’ve said this SO many times before, I think that the problem is one of religious ignorance and pride within modern Christianity–or just humanity.
I don’t believe at all that a guy like Dave Hasz, with whom I regularly interacted and conversed, ever intended things to be this
way. And if Dave was a bit sexist by any of his remarks, which I
simply can’t speak to, let me remind you that all men have an issue
with sexism. At least Dave–if he did have any–also had a profound
love and care for both men and women. Of this, I cannot be more
certain.
The issue of misunderstanding and miscommunication and furthermore
misrepresenting “love” is simply not a problem exclusive to Teen
Mania; it is most definitely a reflection of the Western Evangelical
Christian religion.
As Teen Mania is a hub for those of this religion, the flaws therein
will be (and have been) quite amplified.
But let me be clear that as much as I will not defend those ignorant
or belligerent involved with Teen Mania/HA, I can no sooner pin the
faults of an entire religion on them than blame any one person for all the world’s problems.
My point is simply that Shannon makes some great points, but they are
certainly non-exclusive to Teen Mania, nor are they completely to
blame. Generations of self-righteous, politically correct, moralistic
Christians were around long before Ron Luce–even if he doesn’t really hear or understand what’s going on, for which I feel very badly for him.
Yes, I can agree that these lessons are not exclusive to TM. But I don’t think anything about what happened there really ever was exclusive to the ministry either. The first thought that comes to mind when you say you agree with most of what was taught about love, is that you are a man and I am a woman 🙂 I’ve often suspected that we girls received a very different message about who we were supposed to be within the kingdom. The lessons I learned there also did not come from Dave or Ron alone, but the women in leadership as well.
There was a real absence of love in my TM experience. Between constant confrontations, mixed messages and a refusal to help me go to the doctor or get picked up from the airport, etc. everything I learned about love involved suffering, not joy. And it will always stick out in my mind how inward focused it all was–there were actually very few opportunities to engage in loving service for the community because we were so overbooked just keeping TM afloat.
Regarding TM’s perspective that it is the wife’s responsibility to be attractive … it reminds me of Ayn Rand’s objectivist philosophy that beauty is a moral imperative.
I also agree with most of what TM taught about love. Whether or not all the individuals were actually loving, or whether they just translated the teachings into a set of legalistic rules to follow however, is a very different matter. And I am a girl too.
I’m confident that you’re right, Shannon. And that’s just the thing:
there may have been accountability and confrontation among interns on
every minute level at Teenage Mania, but many in leadership were not
only failing to be responsible, but they didn’t seem to have others
keeping their ideas and attitudes about life in check. That or those
who were had some very flawed ideas as they were themselves way out of
check. (RONNN!!!) (But I still love you, Ron. I’m human too.)
And that is the danger of religion in general: people in it it don’t
just teach you what to do, but how and why to do it and what you
should be thinking about yourself. Some of the information taught is
just really dangerous, especially without room to question and grow
TOGETHER. Any leader who solely leads quite quickly becomes a fool.
And for the other commenter: yes, I believe that all men do or have
struggled with some sexism. I’m not saying it’s intentional, and
obviously, many of us don’t want to, but it’s definitely part of the
human confusion.
I do have some thoughts for why this is, of course, but whether I’m
right or wrong in my reasoning, it’s very sad that women are
suppressed by men and/or religion in general.
As a non-sexist man and an evangelical Christian, I agree with no more than three of the Teen Mania teachings on love only if you remove the parenthetical qualifiers; otherwise none.
How about this one: If you say you love God and don’t actually love your neighbors, you’re a liar. (1 John 4:20)
Or: If you wish people well but actually don’t do something tangible when they need it, it’s worthless. (James 2:16).
Also, probably worth noting that nobody’s said that TM is to blame for originating these teachings, just that they’re taught there, which is quite bad enough.
Eric, you said it. TM didn’t create these teachings, but they’re taught there nonetheless.
This entire issue of love and how we see it after a cult or abusive group is a good example of how differently trauma affects individuals. I have no doubt that there are interns who did not take most of these lessons to heart. Just like the internship year did not leave every alumnus in a deep depression. I know people who were able to better resist the manipulation than others. But that’s how abuse operates in the human race. We all exit with a different set of hang-ups.
So I understand why a fellow alumnus (including a female) might disagree with me. Count herself blessed to not have an issue with love after TM.
That said, I’d be interested to hear about people who genuinely say TM taught them any of the ideas I mentioned from my second list… really, any “outreach” we did during my time at TM was simply putting on a show in one way or another.
I do genuinely say that TM taught me (or reinforced in me) many of those things from your second list. There were certainly some comments made by TM leaders (yup, Ron) that I did not agree with (that’s part of why I look in here occasionally), but the majority of information that I was fed on a daily basis from DI, CA, and fellow staff and interns was full of love. There was a lot of legalism from certain individuals, but I was surrounded by a community of people who genuinely cared for those who came across their path. I realize that this is because I was lucky (or blessed) and that not everyone has the same experiences, but let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. For me personally, the love and friendship that I experienced was true and real enough that it is still an integral part of my life to this day.
Here’s what I learned about love from 1st Corinthians 12:4-7
Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no records of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes and always preserve.
Much more useful than any of the Teen Mania guidlines on love anyday. 😉
Plad, I don’t know when you were at the HA, but am glad for you that you’re able to say you learned a real love at TM. I don’t wish negative lessons or doctrine upon anyone. As far as throwing the baby out with the bathwater… people say that an awful lot when I say anything negative about TM. And I’ve got to say, don’t make the baby suffer in stagnant bath water, either. We should not have to abide false teachings or abuse just because not every staff member drank the kool-aid. I think that staff who don’t live and breathe HA doctrine generally don’t stick around for long. Or when they finally leave, it’s with much turmoil or drama.
Jeremy, it took me a long time to be able to read that 1st Cor. passage on love. During my HA year, TM used that passage and bent it around their ideas of love, honor, and armor bearing. I’m glad I don’t have to see TM’s version anymore.
Shannon, I’m sorry to hear that TM used the verse to justify their version of love as a means to an end. It just goes to show that they show no respect for those who have a sophistication of how the Bible is read.
Kinda like a famous quote from George Carlin… ‘It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it. It’s the same big club they beat you over the head telling you what to believe and what to think. The table is tilted, folks– the game is rigged. And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care.’
Anyway, aside from that little intellectual tibit, I’m listening to U2’s Pride in the name of Love. 🙂
Shannon, I was there from 2000-2002ish. And of course I do not mean that anyone should have to keep silent and deal with false teachings or abuse because a few people are getting it right. However, in my personal experience, the legalism was the minority. I don’t deny that it existed, or that people weren’t seriously hurt. My point was only to say that this post portrayed only one side (your experience I understand), but not mine. I had (and still have) a lot of very real problems with TM, but finding genuine love there was not one of them.
Jeremy, I like the quote–that’s a very good way to say it. And U2 provides great music for musing.
Plad, thanks for your input. I was there 2000-2001. Again, I think it’s nice that finding genuine love there was not a problem you had. But I’m certainly not alone in receiving a negative or mixed message about love from TM. And while this post is about my experience, I hope it would not be discounted that there were and are indeed alumni who have been hurt in the same way, and that they should not be ashamed for having learned those lessons or for struggling later on in life with love.
It is my belief that Christian leaders should really go above and beyond in “being above reproach” and not leading their students to stumble. We don’t need perfect leaders or perfect people. We need perfect honesty and genuine love. If I had ever received a satisfactory response from HA staff regarding my concerns or issues with the internship, this might have been a very different post. But it is what it is as the HA staff I have dealt with have never chosen to speak openly or actually consider that interns are emerging truly wounded.
Thanks Shannon.
George Carlin was really vocal when it came to the American politics in this country, as well as censorship– he managed to encorporate it well into his comedy.
Anyway, I may consider sharing my personal story here on this site someday. Though, it’s not really a big story to tell. But I’d like to share it.
Jeremy,
I hope you do choose to share your story here. Not for the “RA cause” but for yourself. Sharing our experiences can be such a personal relief, and truly, I don’t believe there are any small stories. It all matters.
I’m probably going to– I just need to find the time to really sit down and write it down (I’ve actually have shared it before indirectly to the public[one was on Roger Ebert’s journal]).
I want to share my experience not just for personal relief, but for the sake of awareness of how American Christianity is in this state of decline because of people like Ron Luce.
And I think because I had a similar experience as everybody else here, I really think if we get the word out and talk more about the corruption of organizations like Teen Mania, or various Word of Faith ministries, it could inspire more of an intellectual Christianity in the future (like folks such as GK Chesterton, CS Lewis, etc.) If you don’t mind? 😉
I was kinda inspired when I did discover some of those authors, as well as read about Ross Douthat’s new book ‘Bad Religion: How America has become a nation of heretics’. However, while the concept being an interest of mine, I can’t fully devout myself to it because of my cartooning and my storytelling. Currently, I’m working on a Gideon comic for my OT class.
Jeremy,
I feel like the intellectual Christianity you refer to is so hard to find these days. I see a very commercial “feed the need” type of religion popping up everywhere, kind of a branch off of the original mega churches. Like mega churches that are trying to be hip, serve coffee, and cater to an iPod generation. But the really substantial ideas like those of Chesterton or Lewis are long forgotten. It’s too bad. The Problem of Pain changed my life.
I would love to see more Christians acknowledge and speak out about all forms of abuse. And I would love to add to that dialogue.
I’ll have to check out Bad Religion. Cartooning and storytelling? Sounds very interesting.
Well I can tell that American Christianity is really trying to hard to be ‘hip’ just like your saying– although, regarding the “feed the need type of religion” definition, you’re referring seems to vary and too vague. Don’t get me wrong, I do think we need to go beyond a selective approach on how churches are doing things– but aren’t Christians suppose to help the needy and love their neighbors? If you mean something else by ‘feed the need’ definition, then correct them if you can. I’m glad we’re having this conversation.
Also, if I may add, I too think not enough Christians are speaking out on all forms of abuse going within and outside the church. I think these are one of the reasons why the New Atheists [Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, etc.] have been hitting hard on religion, especially Christianity, and are trying to declare it’s man made, or that it poisons everything. While I do think it’s good that they’re putting religion on the table of discussion, I think they’re communicating in the same preachy tone that’s no different to what you hear from the Religious Right in America.
And like you, I would like to add to the dialogue on the stances of abuse that Christians need to speak up against.
I haven’t read Bad Religion, but I heard some what it’s general thesis is; even the author, Ross Douthat, has appeared on multiple shows– CSPAN, Bill Moyers’ show on PBS, Andrew Sullivan’s Daily Beast, and surprisingly 700 Club and Realtime w/ Bill Maher.
You can check his interview with Maher here:
And yes, I’m a cartoonist and writer. After I finish my Gideon comic for my OT class, I hope to become more of a graphic novelist, and animator in the professional world. You can check out my art blog here:
downindeep13.blogspot.com
And while I do not 100% agree with Mr. Douthat on every issue (like his stance on cutting Medicare or perhaps his partly weak defense on the death of Bin Laden), I do like his dedication in really trying to dig back into the glory days of Christianity and really give it back it’s intellectual side.
He’s also a breath of fresh air of a Conservative writer whose not acting like ultra-conservatives or Ron Luce’s philosophy of saying ‘culture is evil.’ And this kind of praise is coming from a person like myself whose not a conservative nor liberal.
I’ll have to come back and respond better, but briefly, yes, by “feed the need” I’m referring to a more consumerism Christianity. Giving church-goers more of what they want or think they need.
As far as feeding the hungry and helping the poor, I would say that is LOVE–and that it’s (supposed to be) the Christian mission at its core.
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“In my mind, I believed that if I punished myself by being with someone I didn’t quite love as much as I’d wanted to love someone, I wouldn’t be taking a good man away from a girl who was better than me. Who actually deserved his love. It also meant that I wasn’t basing love on a feeling. When I finally lived in an extremely unhappy marriage, I believe that there was no way out, and
it was my lot in life. I believed that making the choice to stay with a liar and a cheater was even a form of obedience to God.”
Wow….this has been my experience too. Thank you for putting words to it. I am finally out.
THIS! Thank you, Shannon!
I actually agree with a lot of what TM discussed (or taught) about love–not everything, and not necessarily how it was translated or played out, but hey… has any leader or program ever been perfect?
My issue is more with the underlining/unspoken legalistic attitude toward “love” according to a set of rules and the external displays of those either approved or unapproved by those rules. Put bluntly–and I’ve said this SO many times before, I think that the problem is one of religious ignorance and pride within modern Christianity–or just humanity.
I don’t believe at all that a guy like Dave Hasz, with whom I regularly interacted and conversed, ever intended things to be this way. And if Dave was a bit sexist by any of his remarks, which I simply can’t speak to, let me remind you that all men have an issue with sexism. At least Dave–if he did have any–also had a profound love and care for both men and women. Of this, I cannot be more certain.
The issue of misunderstanding and miscommunication and furthermore misrepresenting “love” is simply not a problem exclusive to Teen Mania; it is most definitely a reflection of the Western Evangelical Christian religion.
As Teen Mania is a hub for those of this religion, the flaws therein will be (and have been) quite amplified.
But let me be clear that as much as I will not defend those ignorant or belligerent involved with Teen Mania/HA, I can no sooner pin the faults of an entire religion on them than blame any one person for all the world’s problems.
My point is simply that Shannon makes some great points, but they are certainly non-exclusive to Teen Mania, nor are they completely to blame. Generations of self-righteous, politically correct, moralistic Christians were around long before Ron Luce–even if he doesn’t really hear or understand what’s going on, for which I feel very badly for him.
Yes, I can agree that these lessons are not exclusive to TM. But I don’t think anything about what happened there really ever was exclusive to the ministry either. The first thought that comes to mind when you say you agree with most of what was taught about love, is that you are a man and I am a woman 🙂 I’ve often suspected that we girls received a very different message about who we were supposed to be within the kingdom. The lessons I learned there also did not come from Dave or Ron alone, but the women in leadership as well.
There was a real absence of love in my TM experience. Between constant confrontations, mixed messages and a refusal to help me go to the doctor or get picked up from the airport, etc. everything I learned about love involved suffering, not joy. And it will always stick out in my mind how inward focused it all was–there were actually very few opportunities to engage in loving service for the community because we were so overbooked just keeping TM afloat.
all men have an issue with sexism????
Regarding TM’s perspective that it is the wife’s responsibility to be attractive … it reminds me of Ayn Rand’s objectivist philosophy that beauty is a moral imperative.
I also agree with most of what TM taught about love. Whether or not all the individuals were actually loving, or whether they just translated the teachings into a set of legalistic rules to follow however, is a very different matter. And I am a girl too.
I’m confident that you’re right, Shannon. And that’s just the thing:
there may have been accountability and confrontation among interns on every minute level at Teenage Mania, but many in leadership were not only failing to be responsible, but they didn’t seem to have others keeping their ideas and attitudes about life in check. That or those who were had some very flawed ideas as they were themselves way out of check. (RONNN!!!) (But I still love you, Ron. I’m human too.)
And that is the danger of religion in general: people in it it don’t just teach you what to do, but how and why to do it and what you should be thinking about yourself. Some of the information taught is just really dangerous, especially without room to question and grow TOGETHER. Any leader who solely leads quite quickly becomes a fool.
And for the other commenter: yes, I believe that all men do or have struggled with some sexism. I’m not saying it’s intentional, and obviously, many of us don’t want to, but it’s definitely part of the human confusion.
I do have some thoughts for why this is, of course, but whether I’m right or wrong in my reasoning, it’s very sad that women are suppressed by men and/or religion in general.
As a non-sexist man and an evangelical Christian, I agree with no more than three of the Teen Mania teachings on love only if you remove the parenthetical qualifiers; otherwise none.
How about this one: If you say you love God and don’t actually love your neighbors, you’re a liar. (1 John 4:20)
Or: If you wish people well but actually don’t do something tangible when they need it, it’s worthless. (James 2:16).
Also, probably worth noting that nobody’s said that TM is to blame for originating these teachings, just that they’re taught there, which is quite bad enough.
Eric, you said it. TM didn’t create these teachings, but they’re taught there nonetheless.
This entire issue of love and how we see it after a cult or abusive group is a good example of how differently trauma affects individuals. I have no doubt that there are interns who did not take most of these lessons to heart. Just like the internship year did not leave every alumnus in a deep depression. I know people who were able to better resist the manipulation than others. But that’s how abuse operates in the human race. We all exit with a different set of hang-ups.
So I understand why a fellow alumnus (including a female) might disagree with me. Count herself blessed to not have an issue with love after TM.
That said, I’d be interested to hear about people who genuinely say TM taught them any of the ideas I mentioned from my second list… really, any “outreach” we did during my time at TM was simply putting on a show in one way or another.
I do genuinely say that TM taught me (or reinforced in me) many of those things from your second list. There were certainly some comments made by TM leaders (yup, Ron) that I did not agree with (that’s part of why I look in here occasionally), but the majority of information that I was fed on a daily basis from DI, CA, and fellow staff and interns was full of love. There was a lot of legalism from certain individuals, but I was surrounded by a community of people who genuinely cared for those who came across their path. I realize that this is because I was lucky (or blessed) and that not everyone has the same experiences, but let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. For me personally, the love and friendship that I experienced was true and real enough that it is still an integral part of my life to this day.
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Here’s what I learned about love from 1st Corinthians 12:4-7
Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no records of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes and always preserve.
Much more useful than any of the Teen Mania guidlines on love anyday. 😉
Plad, I don’t know when you were at the HA, but am glad for you that you’re able to say you learned a real love at TM. I don’t wish negative lessons or doctrine upon anyone. As far as throwing the baby out with the bathwater… people say that an awful lot when I say anything negative about TM. And I’ve got to say, don’t make the baby suffer in stagnant bath water, either. We should not have to abide false teachings or abuse just because not every staff member drank the kool-aid. I think that staff who don’t live and breathe HA doctrine generally don’t stick around for long. Or when they finally leave, it’s with much turmoil or drama.
Jeremy, it took me a long time to be able to read that 1st Cor. passage on love. During my HA year, TM used that passage and bent it around their ideas of love, honor, and armor bearing. I’m glad I don’t have to see TM’s version anymore.
Wow!!! Yes! Thank You for this post. Sooo TRUE!!!
Shannon, I’m sorry to hear that TM used the verse to justify their version of love as a means to an end. It just goes to show that they show no respect for those who have a sophistication of how the Bible is read.
Kinda like a famous quote from George Carlin… ‘It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it. It’s the same big club they beat you over the head telling you what to believe and what to think. The table is tilted, folks– the game is rigged. And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care.’
Anyway, aside from that little intellectual tibit, I’m listening to U2’s Pride in the name of Love. 🙂
Shannon, I was there from 2000-2002ish. And of course I do not mean that anyone should have to keep silent and deal with false teachings or abuse because a few people are getting it right. However, in my personal experience, the legalism was the minority. I don’t deny that it existed, or that people weren’t seriously hurt. My point was only to say that this post portrayed only one side (your experience I understand), but not mine. I had (and still have) a lot of very real problems with TM, but finding genuine love there was not one of them.
Jeremy, I like the quote–that’s a very good way to say it. And U2 provides great music for musing.
Plad, thanks for your input. I was there 2000-2001. Again, I think it’s nice that finding genuine love there was not a problem you had. But I’m certainly not alone in receiving a negative or mixed message about love from TM. And while this post is about my experience, I hope it would not be discounted that there were and are indeed alumni who have been hurt in the same way, and that they should not be ashamed for having learned those lessons or for struggling later on in life with love.
It is my belief that Christian leaders should really go above and beyond in “being above reproach” and not leading their students to stumble. We don’t need perfect leaders or perfect people. We need perfect honesty and genuine love. If I had ever received a satisfactory response from HA staff regarding my concerns or issues with the internship, this might have been a very different post. But it is what it is as the HA staff I have dealt with have never chosen to speak openly or actually consider that interns are emerging truly wounded.
Thanks Shannon.
George Carlin was really vocal when it came to the American politics in this country, as well as censorship– he managed to encorporate it well into his comedy.
Anyway, I may consider sharing my personal story here on this site someday. Though, it’s not really a big story to tell. But I’d like to share it.
Jeremy,
I hope you do choose to share your story here. Not for the “RA cause” but for yourself. Sharing our experiences can be such a personal relief, and truly, I don’t believe there are any small stories. It all matters.
I’m probably going to– I just need to find the time to really sit down and write it down (I’ve actually have shared it before indirectly to the public[one was on Roger Ebert’s journal]).
I want to share my experience not just for personal relief, but for the sake of awareness of how American Christianity is in this state of decline because of people like Ron Luce.
And I think because I had a similar experience as everybody else here, I really think if we get the word out and talk more about the corruption of organizations like Teen Mania, or various Word of Faith ministries, it could inspire more of an intellectual Christianity in the future (like folks such as GK Chesterton, CS Lewis, etc.) If you don’t mind? 😉
I was kinda inspired when I did discover some of those authors, as well as read about Ross Douthat’s new book ‘Bad Religion: How America has become a nation of heretics’. However, while the concept being an interest of mine, I can’t fully devout myself to it because of my cartooning and my storytelling. Currently, I’m working on a Gideon comic for my OT class.
Jeremy,
I feel like the intellectual Christianity you refer to is so hard to find these days. I see a very commercial “feed the need” type of religion popping up everywhere, kind of a branch off of the original mega churches. Like mega churches that are trying to be hip, serve coffee, and cater to an iPod generation. But the really substantial ideas like those of Chesterton or Lewis are long forgotten. It’s too bad. The Problem of Pain changed my life.
I would love to see more Christians acknowledge and speak out about all forms of abuse. And I would love to add to that dialogue.
I’ll have to check out Bad Religion. Cartooning and storytelling? Sounds very interesting.
Well I can tell that American Christianity is really trying to hard to be ‘hip’ just like your saying– although, regarding the “feed the need type of religion” definition, you’re referring seems to vary and too vague. Don’t get me wrong, I do think we need to go beyond a selective approach on how churches are doing things– but aren’t Christians suppose to help the needy and love their neighbors? If you mean something else by ‘feed the need’ definition, then correct them if you can. I’m glad we’re having this conversation.
Also, if I may add, I too think not enough Christians are speaking out on all forms of abuse going within and outside the church. I think these are one of the reasons why the New Atheists [Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, etc.] have been hitting hard on religion, especially Christianity, and are trying to declare it’s man made, or that it poisons everything. While I do think it’s good that they’re putting religion on the table of discussion, I think they’re communicating in the same preachy tone that’s no different to what you hear from the Religious Right in America.
And like you, I would like to add to the dialogue on the stances of abuse that Christians need to speak up against.
I haven’t read Bad Religion, but I heard some what it’s general thesis is; even the author, Ross Douthat, has appeared on multiple shows– CSPAN, Bill Moyers’ show on PBS, Andrew Sullivan’s Daily Beast, and surprisingly 700 Club and Realtime w/ Bill Maher.
You can check his interview with Maher here:
And yes, I’m a cartoonist and writer. After I finish my Gideon comic for my OT class, I hope to become more of a graphic novelist, and animator in the professional world. You can check out my art blog here:
downindeep13.blogspot.com
And while I do not 100% agree with Mr. Douthat on every issue (like his stance on cutting Medicare or perhaps his partly weak defense on the death of Bin Laden), I do like his dedication in really trying to dig back into the glory days of Christianity and really give it back it’s intellectual side.
He’s also a breath of fresh air of a Conservative writer whose not acting like ultra-conservatives or Ron Luce’s philosophy of saying ‘culture is evil.’ And this kind of praise is coming from a person like myself whose not a conservative nor liberal.
I’ll have to come back and respond better, but briefly, yes, by “feed the need” I’m referring to a more consumerism Christianity. Giving church-goers more of what they want or think they need.
As far as feeding the hungry and helping the poor, I would say that is LOVE–and that it’s (supposed to be) the Christian mission at its core.