Next week, I promise to get back to the dating/sex/marriage series. But in light of the story yesterday, I wanted to make a few points.
First, if there has been any doubt in your mind about Ron Luce’s character and the stories on this website, yesterday’s story should fully convince you. The way he continues to treat his family is absolutely outrageous and proves that he is a massive fraud.
Second, the fact that he lied about his family AGAIN, even after apologizing earlier this year, shows that we cannot trust any statement Teen Mania makes that “things have changed.” One of the biggest criticisms of this site and the stories on it is that these are all old stories and things have changed. The current Honor Academy is (supposedly) nothing like what we are reporting here (even though we have multiple stories from 2009 & 2010). And yet, they have NEVER once issued an apology or statement of repentance about the VERY SPECIFIC ISSUES we have raised. They’ve only given vague promises saying “things have changed.” Now we have demonstrable proof that Ron Luce offers fake apologies and then just continues lying about people in order to puff himself up. Truly despicable. So why in the world should we believe Teen Mania’s vague promises?
Not one iota of repentance has EVER been shown by senior Teen Mania leadership: Ron Luce, David Hasz, Jonathan Hasz and Heath Stoner.
Third, another common criticism of those of us in the recovering community is that we are bitter and we just need to forgive. To address that very important question, I would like to refer you to the following interview of David Augsburger which shows us how prematurely forgiving abusers actually enables them to continue abusing and also discusses the difference between false and authentic apology. This interview is the BEST advice on forgiveness that I have ever heard. It’s realistic, it acknowledges the pain and the journey and what our responsibility as an injured party is. I can’t recommend it more highly. Here are a couple of snippets that stood out to me:
DAVID: Actually, I have a significant hesitation about ever encouraging people to ask for forgiveness. Requests of this kind can very easily contain a coercive element. When I ask you to give me forgiveness, how can you say ‘No’? You may not be able or ready to forgive yet. Asking can easily feel like demanding. It can become a kind of pious blackmail.
STEPS: So, we should forget about asking for forgiveness?
DAVID: The twelve steps have a much better, and more biblical, instinct about what is appropriate if we have injured someone. The focus is not on asking them for forgiveness but on making amends. If I have injured someone, it is not appropriate for me to ask them to give me something. What I need to do is to become entirely ready for God to change me and then to make amends for the wrongs I have done. The focus is not on asking for something but on demonstrating repentance. I can go to the one I have injured and say “I have wronged you. I recognize that. I deeply regret what I have done. I will live now in a different way. And I hope that someday forgiveness will be possible between us.” This takes the injury seriously and allows the injured person however long they need for the process of forgiveness to move to completion. It is very different from just requesting that the person I have harmed change how they feel about me.
On forgiveness as religiously sanctioned denial:
My own view is that forgiveness in the absence of repentance is almost meaningless. It may sound gracious and loving but usually the person who forgives prematurely, preemptively or unconditionally is trying to avoid the hard work of the forgiveness process. It’s saying “I don’t want to struggle. I can’t carry this any longer. I can’t face the burden.” This leads to a religiously sanctioned form of denial which allows the person to wash their hands of the circumstances. In this case my “I forgive you” may mean only “I refuse to look again at the injury you have caused.”
13 comments:
This makes sense to me. Personally I feel like if I say to DH and all ‘I forgive you’ even though you’ve not ‘made changes’ I’m basically saying to them I no longer feel what you did was wrong and you may continue abusing people. If they had any remorse, or actively sought change I’d feel differently.
I’m at the point were I will no longer be held down by the injury’s they’ve caused me, nor will I stand by silently as they hurt others. If that makes me bitter in they’re mind…oh well.
I don’t know… while I agree that immediate forgiveness without dealing with the hurt and pain is avoidance, I do think that eventual forgiveness, even in the face of an unrepentant abuser, is necessary to complete healing. And I don’t think forgiveness is the same thing as condoning what the person has done. I think true forgiveness is the opposite, as in: “What you did to me was terrible, it was a sin against God and me, and affected me in more ways than you will ever know. And I absolve you of it.” I mean, if God waited until we were repentant of every little sin, even the ones we don’t remember, none of us would ever make it to heaven (and our walks would look a lot more like Dave’s “make restitution with your teachers or God will take his Spirit away from you” speech).
I went through a twelve step recovery program through my church; and although we didn’t talk about forgiveness of our abusers until month 5 or so, and went through a long process of really acknowledging and accepting what happened to us, and that we didn’t deserve it nor were we to blame; it was brought up. We weren’t forced to forgive them. Our leaders stressed that we had to be ready. Our abusers didn’t though… some people’s past abusers were already dead, or refused to acknowledge that anything had happened, or even worse, still blamed the victim for what had happened. In that group, a place of love and support and gentle leading, we were able to forgive them, or come to terms with why we weren’t ready yet.
A victim of abuse has every right to be angry, to never want to see their abuser again, and to take as long as they need to come to a place where they can forgive their abusers. But I do think it’s dangerous (for the victim) to take forgiveness completely off the table until the abuser is repentant.
Almost cried reading what David said.
I can’t believe how emotional that makes me.
good post RA. Really really good post. It is so important to remember how a concept like forgiveness, which is beautiful and pure, can get twisted into a tool of manipulation and control by those who want to retain their power and status.
My cult leader’s definition of forgiveness is “to defend their right to have done what they did to you.” What a bunch of hogwash! Forgiveness is part of the healing process, but it can’t be forced or guilted on someone. I hate when believers say things like, “Well, you just need to forgive.” That is so not helpful!
Man, I really believed (or wanted to believe, I guess) that Ron really didn’t understand what he was doing and that once he did, he’d be repentant. Now it’s clear that he’s being just as evil as Dave and Heath.
I love David’s words stated up there. And while I used to agree with what Renae wrote above, I now think that the victims of any sort of abuse would be smart to keep their guard up, which in a lot of cases means not saying or thinking that they forgive their abuser. Maybe I’m going out on a limb here, but I think that a lot of victims would be easily pulled back into the abuser’s shenanigans if they’ve mentally/spiritually/emotionally forgiven them even if they don’t condone the behavior. Maybe it’s part of the mindset? Maybe we need to be a little callous until things have changed? Maybe it’s just me, but in the past, once I forgave someone, it was hard to draw up the boundaries showing that I didn’t condone their behavior, so maybe it depends on how strong the victim is and where they’re at in their recovery for the forgiveness spoken above to successfully take place.
And that’s why I don’t think “blanket forgiveness” is a good idea. I think it’s very possible, because I’ve done it in my own life, to forgive an abuser, not condone their actions, and also keep strict boundaries regarding that person (including never seeing them again). I didn’t reach out to my past abuser when I forgave her. When I was going through the process of forgiving her during the program I went through, and she friend requested me on facebook, I denied it. Now that I’ve forgiven her I still have no desire or wish to speak to her. I really don’t need to know if she is repentant or not… I’ve forgiven her either way and now I can move past what happened to me. If I found out she had been abusing others the same way she abused me, I would have no problem testifying against her in court, either. And that doesn’t mean I haven’t forgiven her.
Have you ever been through any sort of 12 step or recovery program? That was what really helped me understand what forgiveness while maintaining boundaries meant. It changed my perspective on forgiveness.
As I said before, I think it’s pretty dangerous to tell a victim of past abuse that forgiveness isn’t something they should eventually work towards during the process of recovering from their abuse. Unless I’m interpreting scripture wrong, and I might be, the Bible seems pretty clear about unforgiveness. And like I said before, I absolutely do not think victims of abuse should be pressured into forgiving early or to forgive before they’ve gone through the difficult process of recovery. But to take it completely off the table (to tell a victim they shouldn’t forgive, ever)… that seems unscriptural to me.
Renae – I think what you’ve said here is pretty much in line with the original article, especially because its on a recovery blog and coming from that same perspective.
I didn’t mean not forgiving ever. I could have clarified that in my comment.
Along with what’s been already said, forgiveness is for the specific wrongs you have done to me. It doesn’t mean I condone you continuing the behavior or hurting others in the future. It’s letting go of my right to harbor anger, bitterness, or hurt for what was done to me. Forgiveness is part of healing the hurts in my own life. I can forgive TM for what happened to me, I cannot forgive TM for what they’ve done to someone else…does that make sense? I can’t say, “TM, I forgive what you did to RA, Renae, and Shiloh.” That’s not mine to give. That’s how people in this community can forgive what was done to them personally but still be against TM. I forgive what happened to me, but do not condone the continued abuse I see happening to others. Forgiving and condoning are two different things.
Perhaps there needs to be a delineation between, forgiveness, reconciling and accountability. As RA and Renae discussed, they are different. And I agree, rushing to forgiveness can just be an avoidance of processing what has happened to you or someone pushing you to not hold them accountable. If someone molested me or my child, I am sure I would need to work through my feelings of anger, hurt, etc. but eventually for my own peace and to avoid continual hurt to myself I would need to forgive – a one-way move. It really requires no involvement of the other person,they don’t even need to know about it. It just means I am not carrying the poison of the bitterness in myself which only hurts me and I no longer let the other person have control of my life by allowing their actions to affect my life.
Reconciling takes 2 people. I may forgive you but I may never reconcile with you; it may not be healthy for me or you may not want to.
Accountability means even if I have forgiven you and may even have reconciled with you (perhaps you are a close family member and I have chosen to allow you to have a small part in my life) I will NEVER allow you to be alone with me/my child as you cannot be allowed to be there without someone to keep you accountable.
And yes, someone who is not willing to take responsibility for their actions often will try to throw the blame back on the person who was victimized by saying that they must forgive them. That is a common move of narcissist.
I*t is to my somewhat consistent sorrow that narcissism is at the root of apparently many ministry leaders. Narcissism actually helps some people keep up with good appearances. Just ask kids who happened to be raised by successful yet narcissistic parents have to face the pressure they grew up in to keep up appearances while things were somewhat brutal behind the scenes….:(
While it seems many of you honestly recognize signs of this malady in Luce and other TM leadership while also recognizing the signs in yourself of needing to recover from the hidden from public view of the results of living within a ministry system that is brutal behind closed doors.
The real problem IMO is that such a ministry is actually ANTI what Christ represents in terms of love, mercy and faith.
Deal with different people accordingly.