If You Leave the Honor Academy Early….

Wow.

And going along with the blasphemous trend… there’s a slide of Hasz as a Jedi in there as well. I just threw up in my mouth.

Dang, RA. Great post.

Also disturbed by the Jedi slide. No ego problem there.

God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. James 4:6

Seriously … Jedi’s?? Do they realize being a Jedi is all about mind control?? Bizarre.

I have heard Dave say he doesn’t even know what spiritual manipulation is … this slide show is a perfect example of spiritual manipulation.

When I was an intern, I really felt like everything I did was serving the Lord. I did fairly well and had a lot of pleasant experiences at the HA. Now that I’m a little older and wiser, I see the ministry as a business and the leaders twisting scriptures just to keep the machine running.

And these people wonder why so many graduates walk away from organized religion … not to mention God. Honestly, I don’t think the leadership has the time to care. They will work their interns to the bone, then make them sit through evaluations of their spiritual life, as seen by their CA’s (or whoever) and drain every last big of energy and zest and life out of them.

The Honor Academy makes you pledge to them, not God … then they use you and throw you to the wolves when they are done.

Gracemakesfree, That’s so true. What is that thing about making oath’s to men? I mean it gets abused but I think this is the type of thing they mean.

I agree with Jami C……I just threw up a little…….so, so wrong…and so, so sad

I think one of the most damaging things about this whole situation is that, if someone chooses to leave, they feel the judgment of every intern and staff member looking at them and saying, “God hates you because you did not keep your oath.”

Now, every intern and staff member may not really truly think God hates that person, BUT if I left, I would think that is what everyone else is thinking … and that’s where the real damage is done – in the mind.

Not only that, although I had extensive experience with Teen Mania before I became an intern, I still did not realize everything that was going to happen at the Honor Academy. I remember Dave saying something to the effect of, if God is calling you to do this, He knows what’s going to happen this year, so He will give you the strength (kind of like, you don’t have to know EXACTLY what you’re committing to, because you’re committing to God). Again, looking back, I feel like this is disingenuous. I just feel like they are taking advantage of overzealous youth and the thing with that is, the youth don’t realize they are being taken advantage of until the zeal is gone. 🙁

I also think if most parents knew EVERYTHING that the Honor Academy entailed, they would not send their children. My mother still is in shock at some of the stories I tell her.

“You have also heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not break your vows; you must carry out the vows you make to the Lord.’ But I say, do not make any vows!” –Jesus. Matthew 5:33-34, NLT.

Jesus is stating that His teaching specifically supersedes the OT regulations on vows, oaths, and commitments– He quotes Numbers 30:2, and then says “But I say to you…”

So. You can believe the Honor Academy doctrine says, or you can believe what Jesus said. They are two different and opposite things.

(Hint for which to choose: Honor Academy is a lying, deceptive, coercive, Scripture-twisting, manipulative, anti-Christian cult.)

A very interesting quote I just found:

“The fulfilling of a lawful oath is of Divine law, but not the fulfilling of an unlawful oath. Wherefore if a subsequent obligation makes that oath unlawful, whereas it was lawful before, he who does not keep the oath he took previously does not disobey the Divine law. And so it is in the case in point; since he swears unlawfully who promises unlawfully; and a promise about another’s property is unlawful.” –Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica

In other words, if your commitment to the Honor Academy ever attempts to supersede your prior commitment to God, then your commitment to HA is automatically void. Even if the commitment was valid at first (which as we’ve seen is debatable), if they ask you to do something against your will–such as staying if you don’t want to– then it goes against Scripture and is invalidated. “It was for freedom that Christ set us free, therefore do not be subject to a yoke of slavery.” (Galatians 5:1)

About the Jedi thing- in their defense, they said that somebody from Marketing whipped that up as a joke one day. I guess they liked it enough to slip it in as a tension breaker?

However, to the point, I totally remember squirming in my seat over that slide.

Also RA, these posts keep hitting the Truth, hard.

“The only way God can hate a believer is if God can hate Jesus.”

Heavy. I’m gonna be sitting on that one for awhile.

Oh I’m sure it isn’t meant to be a serious thing. But as a Star Wars geek I still have to protest the defilement of anything Jedi related 🙂 If they’d put Dave’s head on Luke’s body, now that would be different. Since we all know that Luke is a pansy…

Sorry for the derailment…

RA, did you ask Dave to clarify to you what he meant to communicate through this slide?

I may be going out on a limb here, but I think Dave meant to say that God hates those who don’t keep their word.

Yeah, it’s pretty hard to interpret it any other way when he went out of his way to find a no longer printed version of a scripture from an obscure translation.

Duh- LOL best comment

Jami C- Ah, gotcha. I know pretty much nothing about Star Wars, so I appreciate your feedback all the same 😉

Every time I come to the blog and read a new post I want to watch Saved! again.

Its a movie from 2004 about a Christian high school with Mandy Moore, Macaulay Culkin, Mary Louise Parker and Jena Malone. It’s a precise look at how Christians behave. When I first saw it I was fresh off the compound so I took offense to it – but the more i see it – the more I see it’s cinematic truth of the state of Christianity. Watch it now.

Do you think that Hasz busted out with the Revelation 21:8 song during this lecture??

Revelation, Revelation 21:8, 21:8
Liars go to hell, liars go to hell
burn burn burn. burn burn burn.

I think that you can nit pick anyones words and make them into your own interpretation, based on offenses and past hurts. I would be careful speaking about anyone God is using…even if you dont agree with them.

Anon, forgive me for this stupid question….

How do you KNOW that God is using DH? or anyone for that matter?

Anon 6:02- Hi there! This is just my take on it, but I don’t think there’s anything to “pick apart” from:

“God hates those who keep their word (Careful)”.

It’s pretty blatant.

Shannon- LOL THAT SONG we would sing that all the time my year.

… wow.

“God hates those who *DON’T keep their word (Careful)”.

oops

Anon 6:02-“I think that you can nit pick anyones words and make them into your own interpretation…”

Would you agree we shouldn’t do that to God’s words? But that’s exactly what Dave Hasz is doing in this example. (Look up Proverbs 12:22 for yourself if you think it isn’t so!)

Wow! So many of us had a strong reaction to the picture of Dave and Ron as Jedi!

Goodness, how egotistical and narcissistic could they be?!

Didn’t we get a Biblical warning that in the final days that men would be lovers of themselves (self-centered)?

How ironic… the Jedi picture should scream a warning to anyone that sees it. People do not need to be around leaders that are so absorbed with themselves that they have Jedi pictures. We need HUMBLE leaders that share the Gospel by the way they their lives – exclusively to the Glory of God and not man / institution.

… yeah, and ditto the comment about the movie Saved!

~Blue Lantern

The part that makes me laugh is

“Teachable
A Committment to a soft moldable heart”

In other words…

“We expect you to listen to everything we say and NEVER question our Authority. In the event that you ever question us in areas that we do not wish to give you an answer, you will be labeled with a hard heart and not teachable. Here’s the TWISTED scripture to prove our point.” (not an actual quote but this is what I understood DH was saying when I was at the HA).

And… My heart sure was “soft” when I left the HA (emotionally). It felt like Jello. It hasn’t been strong since.

“Oh, and why this LABEL is so important to you is because GOD hates people who don’t keep their word and by not being teachable, you are now going against your word. Here’s the contract you signed so you won’t forget.”

By the way, “What happened to the good ol’ days when people had great integrity and just shook hands to seal the deal? We don’t trust you to have that integrity so sit here while I talk for hours on keeping your committment without ever mentioning that I have not intention on even making a committment to you. SIGN HERE.” (Sarcasm here)

I have a serious and honest question. I am not looking to disprove anybody only curious.

I do not %100 agree with everything TM believes. But I definitely appreciate there ministries. I attened HA several years ago, and had an overall good experience. I feel it was huge part in my spiritual growth and certainly brought me closer to God.

Many of you not only had bad experiences but disagree overall with their beliefs and philosophy. How could something that you would consider false teaching and such a horrible place, have a positive impact on so many as well(including myself)?

– John from PA

Anon – 2 main reasons I can think of:

1) Because God will always come when people are seeking Him. Just because the Honor Academy is abusive doesn’t mean that God doesn’t still care for the interns and minister to them as much as possible.

2) You might think it was beneficial, but change your mind in a few years. A lot of people have done that….

Let me preface my comment with 2 statements:
1. I am NOT saying that leaving HA does or does not make you rebellious.
2. I am NOT saying that there are not things in our lives that bring consequences.

However, I am saying that making the statement that God hates people who leave HA or who do actually sin(which we all will do – we are not perfected yet) is NOT correct scripturally. And here is one of many examples from the Bible and it is even from the old testament. Psalm 32:1-5

1 Oh, what joy for those
whose disobedience is forgiven,
whose sin is put out of sight!
2 Yes, what joy for those
whose record the Lord has cleared of guilt,[b]
whose lives are lived in complete honesty!
3 When I refused to confess my sin,
my body wasted away,
and I groaned all day long.
4 Day and night your hand of discipline was heavy on me.
My strength evaporated like water in the summer heat.

5 Finally, I confessed all my sins to you
and stopped trying to hide my guilt.
I said to myself, “I will confess my rebellion to the Lord.”
And you forgave me! All my guilt is gone.

So even if breaking a commitment to stay at HA for a year was a sin (which it is not literal and that is between you and God – DH is not in that paygrade), to tell someone that this choice or many of the others that appear to be “going to ruin your life, your marriage, etc.” is to deny the power of God to forgive and to deny the price that Jesus paid on the cross.

It is very frustrating when others attempt to bring all into their bondage of legalism. The thought for today then is, considering their outlook on legalism – think how much bondage they must be under – trying to fulfill all their laws which they have created to keep themselves (and others) from straying. Don’t take that yoke of bondage back – from anyone.

@John from PA– God is sovereign and can use even evil things to accomplish His good purposes. See Genesis 50:20. However, that doesn’t mean that He, or we, should condone evil practices or false doctrine. Just because God uses something doesn’t mean He approves it.

@greysheep– Excellent, but too many disclaimers! (I admire your tact, though.) Since you demur from saying it, I will: Leaving HA does not make you rebellious, and probably the only tangible consequences of leaving will be some passive-aggressive emails from Heath Stoner.

@Eric – I agree with your statement that God CAN work through evil. But what you’re saying then is after all my seeking of God and time in prayer that God opened the door and led me to a false teaching cult. So you would believe that someone seeking after God’s face and wisdom and guidance God would lead him to a place that you consider evil?

– John

I use the example of a miscarriage that my family suffered through often. It was a horrible, horrible experience. From it I learned true empathy, compassion and more about God’s love for me. I realized that all the things I proclaimed about trusting God were just empty words, and when I was provided an opportunity to really put those claims into practice… I saw how they fell short.

Do I recognize that good came of the experience? Yes. Would I wish it on anyone else… or hope to experience it again? Never. God uses the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. He brings beauty from ashes. He makes everything beautiful in its time. But to condone evil practices… abuse etc. just because God can (and WILL) work through those things is just silly.

And to address John’s last comment… I struggle with that as well. I KNOW that I was called to the Honor Academy. And thank God for it. It lead me to Texas. Where I met my husband. And I have a full and wonderful life. But the Lord also knew what Teen Mania was, would become etc. So if He lead me to the Honor Academy… just so I could have a hand in bringing an end to its deceit and manipulation… then I’m not going to point my finger at Him and accuse Him of leading me there under false pretenses.

I think someone like Eric would have an easier time explaining the theological ramifications of that issue. I can only go off of what I feel like I’ve learned in the time I’ve spent praying about this issue… and coming to terms with the mixed feelings I have about my time at the Honor Academy. Thankful for the things it brought about and produced… and angry and resentful toward its practices.

“GOD” a mythical being in the sky, did not lead you to TMM. You, through your own intention by spending so much time “praying” and “seeking his face” conjured up feelings in yourself, situations in your life that may have appeared to be “signs” and sent yourself down a path where going there “felt” right.

Do you know that feelings are chemical reactions in your brain and that your brain doesn’t know the difference between things actually happening to you and things you imagine are happening if you spend enough energy on it? This, my friends, is why you were “called by God” YOU ARE GOD and you did it to yourself. There’s one theological explanation.

The fact that AFTER you went there and met your spouse and are living happily ever after is merely consequence of other actions and decisions you have made despite being indoctrinated by a cult.

John – I have no real answer for that. Indeed, its something I’ve struggled with a lot in my life. Why would God lead me to such a dangerous place? Or if he wasn’t leading me, why didn’t he stop me? I don’t know….free will, I guess. I’ve never really been able to come to a satisfactory conclusion.

Enlightnementisntsoscary-
You’re right, that is one theological explanation. I don’t agree with you, but you’re entitled to your opinion as much as Jami and others are in that they feel like they were led to the HA by God (whether they understand it or not). Either way, I don’t know that there’s a real way to “prove” either side so I don’t think it does much good to try and argue with someone’s experience.

Krista, you took the words right out of my mouth.
elightenmentisntsoscar, who the hell are you to tell someone how or how not to feel? Maybe you should just change your sn to Dave Hasz.

Krista–I wasn’t arguing. It was asked, by John, how that would be possible. I was offering, as I stated, one possibility.

John– A good friend of mine got saved when some friendly Jehovah’s Witnesses gave her a copy of their New World Translation. She started reading the Bible (such as it was) for the first time and eventually accepted the Lord. Of course the JWs are an out-and-out cult by most definitions, and the NWT is a travesty of the Scripture filled with dubious doctrine. But my friend was genuinely saved (and she’s still a solid believer) because of her encounter with this cult.

Did the Lord lead her to the cultists? Probably. Did good come of it? Definitely. Does that mean that they get a free pass on their false doctrines, authoritarian practices, etc.? Not at all. It just means that the Lord can use whatever the heck He wants to use. If anybody ever asks me “Should I get involved with the JWs?”, I’m still telling them No Way.

So, if it’s indeed the case that the Lord directed you to HA– if you’ll pardon my touch of skepticism. Note in Hannah’s story, for instance, how they appealed to “God’s calling” as part of a manipulative recruiting/marketing pitch– then what it proves is that He wanted you there and He had a good reason for you to be there. It does not prove that their documented false teaching (as in this post) and abuse (approaching 100 true stories on this website alone) are things anyone should just let slide.

For the theological background, Peter Kreeft has written admirably on it, or Alvin Plantinga if you like technical philosophy. One takeaway line: “It is not true that all things are good, but it is true that all things work together for good to those who love God.” (Kreeft)

As RA commented this is not something that even those who consider themselves recovering alumni, and still christian, can find an answer to in their biblical knowledge or knowledge of god. I don’t think I deserve to have people jump down my throat because my explanation isn’t from a christian perspective. Although, sadly, it’s what I’ve come to expect from christians in general.

I think it’s a sad point though when Christians point fingers and tell one another that their decisions weren’t based on a calling or where God wanted them to be.
I understand your perspective, but maybe you should choose your words more carefully.

All I know is that I have learned so much out of my rotten experiences at TM. I have learned that it doesn’t take much for me to be judgmental or for me to behave like a Pharisee. I have learned that there is no end to God’s grace in my life. If it took God allowing me to go to the Honor Academy, or if He even called me to go there for the simple fact that I needed to be sanctified through certain struggles, than I trust that God is completely Sovereign. Job is just one of many examples in God’s Word that I look at as proof of this.

elightenmentisntsoscary,
We’ll have to agree to disagree. That’s really being too generous, but I don’t want to derail this conversation by mocking your “explanation”. Sometimes, tone is everything… and your tone is argumentative.

I didn’t care for Teen Mania at the time I felt I was “supposed” to go. My brother had gone and I didn’t really like the attitudes it produced. I wasn’t smoking a peace pipe or listening to emotionally charged worship music when it occurred to me. It happened very calmly and logically. I wrestled with the idea for some time. Because of the way things seemed to happen from my perspective, I will always be the last person to mock, criticize or try to explain away someone’s personal experience.

The God of the Bible hardened pharaoh’s heart. I’m sure there are much better examples. I choose to believe that God is able to incline our hearts in certain directions. In the same way that many Christians believe the Holy Spirit can lead us to pray for people and ask for things that we wouldn’t necessarily think of on our own.

Anyway, I digress 🙂 I won’t be baited into any further arguments over the semantics of it all.

I think its sometimes hard to determine “tone” through a written exchange. I didn’t find enlightenment’s tone argumentative. He/she was just offering an opinion and he/she is welcome here as much as anybody else.

I know this is a topic that engenders strong feelings, but lets all try to take a deep breath before we comment. 🙂

John,

Just a question. You’re not the same John who started his own cult after leaving the compound, are you?

The second comment posted by elightenmentisntsoscary made his/her perspective make more sense.

I’ll have to disagree about the tone, though. Maybe there’s a better word for it. “Happily ever after”? That’s a subtle attempt at mockery.

In reference to why God would lead/allow/whatever for us to go through difficult things, including going to HA if that was your question, it makes me think of so many in the Bible, new and old testament. Paul spoke of so many places he was led to go and tell about Christ. And get shipwrecked, beaten, imprisoned, etc. Or what about Joseph who was thrown in to a hole to die, then sold in to slavery, repeatedly imprisoned when he was innocent and ends up saving his family from starvation.

The Bible also says that we comfort with the comfort we have received – which is code for – you are going to suffer. I have noticed in my own life, it is much easier to be patient with, understanding of and less judgmental of others when I have had to endure similar suffering. If something had never been a problem for me, such as questioning God, I did not see how others would not trust Him. It was not until I had gone through extreme hardship that pushed me to that point that I understood and was capable of compassion rather than judging.

And to enlightenmentisntsoscary, yes our bodies, thoughts, brains, etc. do work in a pattern both affecting and affected by what we think and feel. I also know how a car works but that does not make it any less of a great tool or harmful if misused. Just because we understand how something works does not make it not a creation of it’s creators. I know who made my car but I am no less thrilled about it and appreciate when I have some instruction of how to use and take care of it. My God is not afraid for me to understand how bodies work. Knowledge if a gift which I appreciate and God through out the Bible speaks of the great value of both knowledge and wisdom. The workings of the brain are, as you implied, a wonderful thing! But that is fodder for another place. This place is about healing from the hurts and hoping to be a part of the change of harmful dogma and legalism experienced by HA interns.

I think the whole Teen Mania STAFF starting with Ron Luce, DAVE HASZ, and HEATH Has to be Stoned out of this freaking mind to do what he does should all read THE PRODIGAL GOD by Timothy Keller. Because they are the definition of the Elder Brother.

Oh PS the Prodigal God is my GROWTH PLAN that I am recommending to those three especially.

I think the “if God called me then why? question is easily answered with He didn’t and Doesn’t call people there. He calls people to press into his ministry in some way. I question if any of you looked into other options or if because of the MOB and other people in your life that were talking about how this experience “would be amazing and life changing” if you even looked at the other ministry opportunities that presented themselves? I was called to work within a ministry and to press in greatly to God but I don’t even remotely think when he was telling me that he was meaning the Honor Academy I firmly think he intended for me to either be a leader in my campus ministry or go to the Bible college just down the road from where I was. I believe that because others worked on my calling to go deeper I walked off of Gods path onto a parallel path. Much like I could choose the thing I want to research as a graduate student or I could choose my calling. If I don’t choose my calling things will stand in my way more often than not. I don’t believe anyone is ever called to the HA over bible college/college ministries at public colleges/ect… I do believe that if you choose wrong though parallel God will still teach you some awesome lessons but that those lessons may take a harsher toll on your body/mind/spirit which is what happens with the HA

“This place is about healing from the hurts and hoping to be a part of the change of harmful dogma and legalism experienced by HA interns.”

That’s really good. I’ll come back when this is a safe place again 🙂

@jami You stated yourself that you were holding back from “mocking” my explanation. That was your word from the beginning. I would venture to say that there is a bit of projection involved with you thinking that’s what I meant to do. “Happily ever after” is a term to sum up “in all it turned out for good” or something to that extent. Not a mockery. We already agree that tone is difficult to decipher online.

I was a victim of TM and it’s “harmful dogma and legalism” as well. I too felt “led” to the HA. I am not an outsider coming in to stir the pot. I happen to bring a very different perspective than most but certainly not all of the readers of this blog.

That I offer a non-biblical perpsective doesn’t make me insensitive to those who have been hurt.

Jami for my part I am sorry, I really don’t think there are set places you are suppose to go even if there are people God will put in your path. I believe part of free will is having multiple places you can go still being in the will of God. That meeting your husband or learning a specific lesson has little to do with where you are and a great deal to do with the Hand of God holding your shoulder during your choices.

Case in point my husband and I grew up far from each other 300+ miles away at our closest point. However we shared many interests and felt interested in going to several events of various types. Regardless of the When or the where we would have met even if neither of us had been in the activity we met at. God was guiding me to him through my own choices putting other choices like a maze along the way to make sure both of us were in the right places at the right time for each other. I honestly believe you were called to meet your husband and Grow in the Lord I just take issue with the idea of ONE set path vrs many set paths that walk you the right way and a few that take you really REALLY off course.

Thank you for this R.A.

Regarding being called to the HA… (because I’ve struggled a lot with the fact that the Lord would lead me there, too)

I had two very clear options to choose between during my senior year of high school, so I asked the Lord to take away my desire to do one or the other so that I could clearly follow His will. That very thing happened quickly and permanently; I no longer had a desire to go down a path that I had been wanting to for years.

I wish that I could say that I misread the Lord’s will or that He used a bad decision of mine for good, but I honestly, to this day, still believe that the Lord led me to the HA.

Maybe it’s not so black & white?

If God hardens people’s hearts, then why does he punish them for choosing what he already chose for them? Makes no sense to me….

Peter Kreeft, I’m tellin’ you….

@Eric – But Peter Kreeft doesn’t acknowledge sociopathy (says that the conscience must be repressed) or even the hardening of hearts in his philosophy, correct?

@Anonymous 10:09PM – The only answer I’ve heard when it comes to that is from Romans 9:22-24:

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.”

But I am sure that there are others… from both sides of the debate.

But heartsfire, God clearly led people in the Bible to very specific places. And they weren’t always good. We always have the free will to obey or not, but there is no denying that he told Jonah to go to Ninevah, or told Joseph to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt. I think sometimes there are very set places we are supposed to go. He also leads us into trials sometimes I think and that does not mean that we are out of His will or abandoned.

I agree that it’s not really black and white. I don’t think there’s a blanket statement or thermometer we can use to decide whether or not God called someone to the HA. I think that’s between God an that person to decide, and that if we start insisting that we know whether or not God called someone else to go or if they were mislead or heard wrong or whatever, we head down the same path we abhor from the staff at TMM. It’s a good reminder that only God can judge what is/was truly in someone’s heart when they made that decision and for us to try to do so is rather arrogant.

@LLL We don’t know how the story may have been different if Jonah had not gone to Ninevah, or Joseph, Mary, and Jesus to Egypt. Because the bible tells us that they did. We don’t know that things would have been better worse or no different if they had made different choices.

AnnaH I completely agree. I was just responding to the fact that sometimes God does call us to very specific places. Maybe other times He doesn’t.

@LLL We aren’t in agreement then. Because, what I am saying is that we don’t know that God specifically called these people to these places any more than we can judge a person today by them saying God called them somewhere specific. We don’t know. We aren’t them. We weren’t there.

I have a simple question.. That I would like a thorough explanation for 🙂 What about this blog doesn’t scream gossip or slander? We’re the freaking body of Christ people!! This is nothing but all of you severing limbs from the whole! But my question….. If you could, justify your gossip(sin)?

Anonymous @ 12:30am,

I will make an attempt to answer your question, but please, everyone else, feel free to jump in: it is the belief of the creator of this site and also of many, many of us who’ve contributed to it, that due to false teaching, inadequate training, immature leadership, and legalistic philosophies, a lot of harm has been done by the Honor Academy to interns. We want to raise awareness, and to provide a place for people who have been hurt to come and heal and get their head on straight. If someone is doing something to harm someone else, it would be wrong not to say anything! Even more so, if the damage is being done in the name of Jesus Christ. We SHOULD be talking about spiritual and emotional abuses that have occurred and continue to occur at the Honor Academy, because maybe it will spare some from having to endure it, or maybe it will help others who’ve already endured it to realize that they aren’t alone and that what happened to them isn’t right. I think you and I can both agree that it is terribly manipulative and hurtful to teach that God HATES you if you leave the Honor Academy. If, for some unimaginable reason, you don’t agree with me on that, then there is no reason to dialogue any further.

Hope I made sense.

Anonymous– Why not call it “boldly taking a stand and speaking out against the sin and evil of this generation”?

“What about this blog doesn’t scream gossip or slander?” The fact that it’s true, for one thing. Teen Mania / Honor Academy are the ones severing people from the body of Christ (see Anna’s story or Hannah’s, just recently), and we’re simply pointing out the undeniable fact that, by biblical standards, they’re false prophets. Just like Jesus did (Matthew 23).

“I think you and I can both agree that it is terribly manipulative and hurtful to teach that God HATES you if you leave the Honor Academy.” – just for the record, that is a very assumptuous statement.. The slide clearly says “God hates those who don’t keep their word.” Which I would agree with. In the sense that I believe not keeping one’s word is a sin. And that God hates sin! Of course if we are in Christ, we are cover by His blood and thus made blameless.. I think the argument of the slide is clearly taken out of context.

I won’t get into whether or not TM is teaching false doctrine or not, but I just think the way you all have attempted to make a stand for “righteousness” has been carried out in the wrong manner. God is the ultimate judge, and not I. But in my opinion, this just doesn’t seem right.

Anon- Read above about how the actual verse for that slide is not only taken out of context for that slide but taken from an old (out dated/mistranslated) version of a single translation. Honestly the verse he references talks about those who lie not those who get involved with something wholeheartedly and find out it isn’t right for them. Honestly those who don’t keep their word though they try are not considered to be sinning or doing anything wrong in the eyes of god and you have a very judgmental attitude assuming that. If you honestly believe you are suppose to be somewhere and make a commitment to that thing but then GOD puts things in your path to make you feel not right about continuing to be there, that isn’t a sin it’s following HIS leadings.
The thing that doesn’t seem right to me about any of your comments is that they don’t come in any sense of love or of understanding, these things aren’t slander because they are real they happened every last story on this site everything we feel is because of something done to us by the HA. We have hurt from it and many of us will for several more years. I worry for you that you can’t come in love and understanding for the hurting. I feel that you should be ashamed that you have lost that aspect of God in his love and grace!

Anon – What Scripture, specifically, makes you think that God hates people who have been made blameless? Isn’t there a bit of self-contradiction in that idea?

See also RA’s post on “slander” here.

So. In a case like this, where
(1) Hundreds of people have been hurt by a professing Christian ministry,
(2) They have already approached them according to Matthew 18 and had their attempt at reconciliation rejected,
(2a) Matthew 18 says “tell it to the church” in that case,
(3) They want to discuss their experiences to find healing from the pain,
(4) They want to evaluate the group’s teaching and expose the false and hurtful elements to protect other people…

…I’m curious what your idea is of the right manner to go about it! What’s your approach to ministering compassionately to those wounded by religion, as Jesus did?

I was not being “assumptuous”, whatever that means. Dave Hasz was using that scripture during a sermon that was directly about keeping your commitment to the Honor Academy. What on earth could he possibly be implying, other than that God hates those who break their commitment to remain at the Honor Academy?

And yes, God does hate sin, but I think He made it pretty obvious that God loves US (sinners) since He came to earth as a man to die in order for us to be redeemed.

AnnaH, God specifically told Jonah to go to Ninevah in Jonah 1:1. The Bible tells us that. Now if we don’t agree that the Bible is the infallible Word of God….then that is another story, in which case we might as well not go any further because we just won’t end up seeing eye to eye.

I think the Nineveh / Honor Academy parallel is one of the most accurate I have heard so far …

Maybe God is calling people to go to Nineveh (i.e., Honor Academy to, “preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

Yes, this is a tongue in cheek comment. 😉

And people … leaving the Honor Academy is not a big deal (or, at least it should not be a big deal). I am sure there are many people who God did NOT call to the Honor Academy that become very confused once they find themselves in the middle of week of the ring with this sort of teaching.

When it comes to the ring / oath, the Honor Academy is more like a fraternity than a ministry. Actually, if you think about it, the entire Honor Academy program is more like a fraternity than a ministry. I think it would be healthier if they just told people that’s what it is.

I got a serious question, ive read this website, ive researched the honor academy, Teen Mania ministries has helped me and other youth in many ways through their exstreme camps and aquire the fire. I do think there are some legitiment points on this site, and even tho it… idk the word for it, but disheartenes me from wanting to go to the honor academy, i still feel God is calling me to go there. I heard Gods voice clearly, and even after reading this stuff its impossible for me to deny what i heard. im going to seek pastoral guidence in a week or two but im wonder about your take on the situation?

Anonymous – I was in your shoes. I know what you’re going through. A lot of things that happen at ATF and Extreme Camps are hyped up emotional experiences that may or may not be the voice of God leading you on. I think if you’re passionate about God and want to get a similar experience you can save yourself some money and heartache and get involved with a good church while you attend a junior college and serve and get some great books on leadership and seek out a mentor and you’re not having to go to through all the TMM hoops and still come out with something. If you really feel like God is taking you there – then Go – but at least you are armed with information before you get there – and you will be able to spot their BS – and maybe you won’t be afraid to speak up – the problem is – they don’t like that – so in the end if you challange them too much they will say you’re being rebellious and they will kick you out. It’s a hard line. Sure TMM does good things – but really, save your money and time and seek God through other avenues. Keep us posted. 🙂

Thanks Andy for responding. Im involved with a great church, im on the worship team. I really believe God has called me to the worship ministry, idk if that means just playing in church, or writing and recording songs, or some where else.. one of the reasons i am signed up for school of worship. Last sunday are pastor was teaching us on spotting this very thing, ive been looking for links to audio or video of sermons or what not to analyze biblicaly (if u have some they would be much apreciated)

@Anon The american association of Bible colleges have colleges in every state. Most allow for you to get an associates degree there before going on to a state school and getting a specialized education in many things. These colleges do so WITHOUT pushing a political/legalistic rules that say you can’t be Christ follower without thinking a very small way. These AA programs can be in things like worship ministry and they also PLACE you in a church after your two years to work while finishing your BA. These institutions will teach you to be a Christian Leader while NOT pushing legalism. I highly suggest them if you are so inclined. Another avenue is Campus ministry provided at many state institutions. Some have full church ministries run by the students save for a pastor while they are in college for things as mundane as Engineering. Seriously consider these options before you jump into the HA. The good things taught at the HA are taught at BOTH of these types of places without the idea that you are somehow entitled to be treated as better christians or the idea that your politics have to measure perfectly against a specific standard. I will hope the best for you no matter what your decision and if you choose to go still let us know so we can pray protection over you. *HUGS*

Anon- The fact that you see the truth in the things that are posted here even though you feel drawn to the HA means you’ve still got a good, thinking head on your shoulders. I urge you to consider with as much ferverence, your other options. That fact that there are some who have “good experiences” at TMM does not excuse the gross abuses that take place. You can have amazing life experiences and opportunities to draw near to God and figure out your life’s passion in many many many avenues. You do NOT need the HA for those experiences. There are so many options available to you at this point and any one of them that you feel interested in would be a good choice. The options that are NOT the HA will also flow naturally from experience to experience as you write your life story. As opposed to the HA where you will have an intense time of living in an unrealistic bubble that once it bursts, even if you have come out relatively unscathed, you will have a hard time relating to your peers and that emotional let down is SO unneccesary! The draw is in the emotional hype. Period. Good luck with your decision.

Anon – I recommend that you have your parents, pastor, and/or responsible adult friends research TMM and the HA. Have them read this site and ask questions (questions that maybe you haven’t considered asking). Listen to their advice. Sometimes the “voice of God” can come from the wisdom of others.

@ the last three comments

Thanks for the input everyone! i hope to have a meeting with my pastor soon, and a decision, im holding on to a check right now a company donated to me until i know for sure if im going or not, if not ill just rip up the check. ill be sure to post on here with my decision.

well my pastor was able to meet with me today and had some good advice to share with me. I decided i will not be attending the honor academy. now i just have to grow the kahonas to break the news to my parents….

That’s the hardest part, fighting against your parents…not everyone wants to please their parents, but it’s understandable for those who do. For me, my parents were against my 2nd year at the HA and fought me tooth and nail about it, and when I ended up doing it anyway, they badmouthed me to all my supporters and made it extra hard financially to remain there. However, I believed it was what God called me to do and I pressed on anyways, and it worked out in the end.

I pray that everything works out between you and your parents as you pursue the other plans God has for you.

@Anon good luck lead with the discussion with the pastor and that there are lots of ways to Grow in God not just in one place in the middle of nowhere in Texas. Some of us grew leaps and bounds at home or in state school. My state school experience included campus ministries where I learned how to LOVE God not fear him. I learned what other denominations believe and found what my own Beliefs and thoughts of God were. I have a best friend that did the same at a AABC college so this is why I suggest these options.

@ Anon It’s so great to have wise counsel of those we trust! Good luck and HAVE FUN pursuing your other options!

I think the year commitment contract is one of the things I disagreed with most. You should be allowed to leave at any time you want without hassle. After all, you’re paying them to be there and if you’re unsatisfied with what your getting for your money, it’s your right to leave.

Nebbie, I would agree. This is one of those areas that makes the HA more aligned with a cult.

I get commitment and I respect the need and desire for commitment— but circumstances happen and therefore there should be some leeway with the commitment aspect.

Unfortunately, at the HA, it is an act of congress to try to leave without feeling an overwhelming amount of guilt and as if you are a failure in god’s eyes because you broke your commitment.

I liken it to the belief that divorce is condemned. In certain circumstances, I think divorce should be and is permitted. While I take commitments very seriously and think highly of them, again, there are circumstances that do not allow for the commitment to be followed through— and I think that god and most people are understanding of that.

Buying a house/car is a commitment and contract… however, certain circumstances happen that may cause that commitment and contract to be broken and I think that should be okay.

Anonymous poster who decided not to attend – I would love an update on your life and situation. I hope your choice has brought you peace. Cheers to you. God Bless.

My children’s lives have been so positively changed due to their experience at the Honor Academy. It is all a matter of perspective. The more you pour into the Honor Academy experience, the more you get out of it. My boys have been come and are becoming more and more grounded in the intimate relationship with Jesus and I am so grateful.

What a biased place on the web, when the “reviewer” will delete any comments they don’t see as their “truth.” No one should believe unless all comments are allowed to be posted. Sure there are those that don’t like HA but there are a ton more that love it.

No one can judge the Honor Academy unless you’ve actually been there yourself! If you do then your basing it all on some one else’ opinion. That’s LAME!

“What a biased place on the web, when the “reviewer” will delete any comments they don’t see as their “truth.” No one should believe unless all comments are allowed to be posted.”

…………………….

are you aware that the HA website does that too?

Only comments that violate the comment policy are deleted, not because someone disagrees with the comment.

And anon @7:30am – pretty much everyone here have been to the HA. So these would be our own opinions.

I have, like two, maybe more if i think of another, things to ask/say but the first one is on the policy…Why would you delete a post that is saying that the HA is a great place? because that is going against the free speech amendment and I don’t care for this message that the HA website does the same thing. I only post this question because te policy was brought up in an earlier post.

The other thing is about a teaching that Jesus says about hate…and not bashing opinions or whatever i am just responding to some of the things I have read on here. And this thing has slightly been mentioned, but at the same time you need to apply it to the way you talk, is the fact that when you feel hate towards something you are basically murdering whatever your hate is toward. I bring this up because I see that some of the statements can mean that but also see how it might not. And before you ask which ones I won’t say because it would take me too long to do it and i will get distracted and not remember to post it.

I am typing this as a warning to be careful on what you say and how you mean it and to at least clarify what is being said when it may not be clear.

You guys are crazy.. I personnaly didn’t think about going to the honor academy while i was at ATF.. but got home and prayed about it.. decided that it may be somthing I would be called to.. talked to my mom about it.. but soon decided there was no way we could afford it.. later that year at extreme camp I got this huge scholarship for like no reason.. if that isn’t god calling to me then I don’t know what is.. I pray hard that I live my life after highschool exactly how god wants me to, I have complete faith now that by attending HA I will grow in christ.. it is a good program that has changed alot of my youthgroup they are on fire for god now.. I will go to my bible for everything I learn at HA so I won’t necessarily agree with everything.. but I honestly love what they are doing.. and most of you guys who had bad experiences need to grow up and move past whatever blockage in your faith you ran into here.. I agree that this site is bias and I hope to see this comment on here later.. I am gona read my bible and go to bed.. Love you all.. in a Christ Like way of coarse..

To all of you who are wrestling through the question: “how could I feel God call me to a place that ended up being abusive”, I say: Keep questioning. Your pursuit & questions are good, and important, and needed in the healing process.
And, as a former TMM-er, and after many years of detox, my thought is this: if you left the HA before your year was up… then, you left before your year was up. That’s it. It doesn’t “mean” anything about you, except maybe that you have a lower tolerance for BS than other people might. It certainly isn’t a symptom of sin.
Unfortunately TMM is feeding people poison and calling it Christianity. It happens with a lot of ministries that become machines. Keep up the questioning, searching and healing 🙂

Anon….
It is what I call the ACC- American Church Corporation.
We are in now what I call a time of the Laodicean Church which the Lord says they think they are rich, but are poor; think they see, but are blind.
Others watch out for legalism…it is a catchy disease and will either destroy or infect others to pass it on. This is not only TMM, but also in many of the church organizations today. Works is the product that they are selling, not grace. In NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING can we ever achieve more of God’s grace or more of God’s approval. We are justified by grace through salvation of Jesus Christ and we are sanctified by grace as Christians through the salvation of Jesus Christ. Works is preached today because we feel man has something to do with it. The preaching of this is wrong and damaging to Christians and non-Christians alike and must not be tolerated, but be proclaimed that works don’t have anything to do with our standing as Christians before the Lord. Faith, Hope, and Love is what is important to the Lord. Faith and trust that He is our salvation and that He will complete His good work in us. Hope in that our Savior will deliver us in ALL things and our Hope that we will be with Him in eternity. Love, in the fact that we are to love Him and love others as He first loved us. I do not see these things in the ACC- American Church Corporation. I see an institution for gaining profit from unsuspecting believers and non-believers.

I’ve been to HA and though most of this article is bias and blown way out of proportion(as usual) there is some truth behind it.

Dave Hasz really was bad for ATF I don’t know how he ever got hired he’s so opposite of the spirit of the entire ministry and many of the negative posts/comments can really be pinned on him. It’s a shame but don’t let one bad apple corrupt your opinion of the whole tree.

Anon @ 1/27: Funny how he headed up the HA for 17 years, in that case. You’d think someone might have caught on before then that the guy they put in charge of the ministry was actually the opposite of what they wanted….

“The only way God can hate a believer is if God can hate Jesus” “If you are in Christ, God can NEVER hate you. Its absolutely impossible!”
While you may be onto something here, your logic is fallible. First of all, God can do whatever He wants to. “All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”” (Daniel 4:35) If God decided to be merciful to Hitler, then Hitler could be in heaven right now. In the same way, someone who did lots of good things and worshiped God with their tongue, but not their heart could be dismissed to Hell by God. Or don’t you know that it’s possible to call yourself a believer but not truly be one?
Here’s what I’m getting at: You’re saying many valuable things that could be of some help to those still feeling shame or guilt by leaving the academy. However, in the same way going through “persecuted church” training is off the mark in terms of what we should be focusing on, so is casting shame on someone else to bring relief to yourself which is essentially what you’re doing. Stop painting Dave Hasz as the next KKK leader so you can feel guilt-free. Instead, find your identity in Christ, who God loves, and who we are made blameless through. Dave is right, God doesn’t like liars. And if what Jesus said was true (and I believe it is) and not even an iota will be taken away from the law, then people who tell a lie will still be cut off from God’s people unless they repent of it (this is implied in Leviticus 19). For you to say God would never hate a Christian is possibly mistaken. If God deems them a Christian, I’d say you’re correct, He wouldn’t hate them, but bless them. However, How many people do you think there are who call themselves Christians but aren’t? Have you met anyone like that? If we’re referring to those people as Christians too (since it’s hard for the world to see past the broad label and distinguish the two), then it is possible for God to hate “Christians.”
All in all, your arguments sound fairly weak. I can tell you’ve been hurt by the program, and you didn’t like it. Do some studies and surveys on the rest of the Bible. I’m sure you’ll find that the Hebrews were a cult too. Moses was probably high when he claimed a bush spoke to Him. A lot of Christian things are going to be foolishness to the world. Therefore, you can’t always depend on the world as a means to explain them. The Esaul/Pearl program was a way of experiencing what persecuted Christians world-wide go through. Therefore, I can easily see why your leaders saw value in what they were making you do. And of COURSE you wouldn’t like it. It’s representing SUFFERING and PERSECUTION! But I also don’t think mock persecution to the extent of physical or mental harm and neglect should be sought after. If perseverance, trust, love, and spreading God’s message to a hurting world are sought after, experiencing real persecution is inevitable and we will endure it when it comes. It’s like practicing healing people through faith. It’s something you indirectly practice by focusing on drawing closer to God instead of focusing on the gift itself. So, to be clear, while I think your leaders had the right idea of how they wanted you to grow, I think they were going about achieving the results through an improper means. You, on the other hand, kind of sound like a whiny activist. “Pain” does not equal “bad.” See the value in what they were trying to teach you, now move on.

“I think they were going about achieving the results through an improper means.”

I thought you weren’t allowed to break your commitment to never speak ill of the Honor Academy or its leaders. Does that mean, by your reasoning, that you’re a false Christian and God hates you?

As for studying the Bible more, here’s what it says on the subject: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39) If you’re saying that “lying” can separate a Christian from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord, you’re wrong.

As for advising RA to “move on,” that’s strange advice coming from someone who’s so upset about a blog post that was published three years ago.

Just note that in Aug. 2011 while still under the direction of Dave Hasz the HA STOPPED requiring the interns to commit to a full year. Dave Hasz said they were stopping this commitment because the spirit of it had been abused and since interns were being made to feel like they were ungodly to quit this practice of asking interns to commit to a full year should be stopped. He said it “smacked of cult like behavior”. There was NO commitment to a full year required from interns in Aug. 2011 or Jan. 2012. Since Dave Hasz has left the HA the commitment to a full year has been reinstated so I guess we know where that was coming from – not Dave Hasz but instead Ron Luce.

Anon @8:16 — Funny that Hasz doesn’t mention that change in his November 2011 list, if that’s so.

Regardless, the issue is not the full-year commitment but the teaching that breaking it causes God to hate you– a doctrine seen above in Dave Hasz’s own words from 2011.

It’s interesting that Dave Hasz would say “it had been abused” but neglect to mention that, as shown, he was the one responsible for abusing it.