When an intern quits or is dismissed from the Honor Academy, there are a few common reactions:
1) Wicked sinner!
2) They weren’t “called” to the Honor Academy.
3) They weren’t cut out for the Honor Academy because its not for everyone.
I’d like to especially take a look at this last response. I hear it alot. Many people assume that since I take issue with the HA, it must mean I wasn’t cut-out for it. After all, the Honor Academy is not for everyone.
Really?
Then why do they accept nearly everyone?
From my understanding, it is pretty difficult to not get accepted into the Honor Academy. If you accept people into your program at various stages in the Christian life, with varied backgrounds, strengths, struggles and wounds, it is only right that you are prepared to deal with everyone right where they are.
Jesus is not selective. He accepts everyone. I think that anytime we become more selective than Jesus, we are treading on dangerous ground. Understanding that, I do concede that at times it might be prudent to limit involvement to certain types of people – but this should be stated up-front and not marketed as a program for every single Christian teenager.
Instead, Dave Hasz openly says on his blog (emphasis in bold is mine):
I am looking for 100 alumni to commit to recruiting 3 students each to be interns this coming year.
These students could be from your church youth group, your family, a local school or even some of your friends—any young person you know would benefit from being at the Honor Academy.
So the director of the Honor Academy himself says that the Honor Academy is for everyone.
57 comments:
Hmm, interesting thoughts. First of all since TM is accepting to admit anyone, then they originally give the benefit of the doubt to everyone. However, in doing such it is highly probable that these initial lack of high standards in admittance will result in lack of quality (in TM’s eyes) participants, ergo dropouts.
Should TM be praised or reprimanded for this approach? TM gives an opportunity for growth to anyone who is willing to “commit” a year of their lives . However, they themselves admit that the HA is not for everyone, so logically they would expect dropouts from their programs.
Lets pretend that TM does not have the many issues and concerns that you and others have brought up (again, was not my experience) under this scenario, I personally think that anyone who is willing to commit a full year or two of their lives to serve God with all the rigid lifestyle requirements SHOULD be admitted and given the opportunity to go through and complete the programs they started. That way they remove prejudice and allow God (not TM) to make a change in that individual
March 12, 2010 10:06 AM
Josh said…
This is definitely an interesting one, yes. I
was a member of the mobilization team as my
ministry placement at the Honor Academy, and
it often seemed like we were trying to get
about anyone there (with some standards thrown
in for good measure). As a member of the Mob
is frequently on the phones (most of the
ministry is, really), I got to hear from young
people the nation over, learning about various
experiences and talking with kids who have
lived through things I could never have
dreamed of. It was in recruiting for the HA
that I learned that it’s hardly for everyone.
Now, I think Mr. Hasz is a pretty awesome guy,
but I’m also 90% sure he’s human, that he
makes mistakes (*It should be noted that the
10% that’s unsure does not think he’s G-d or
some demi-god, but it’s the 10% of my head
that’s more than a little strange). Because
he’s human, I think it’s safe to say that he
makes mistakes. I personally do believe that
everyone would benefit from the HA in one way
or another, but that doesn’t mean I believe
everyone should drop what they’re doing and
go, nor do I believe that everyone should go
at all. Some people shouldn’t go, it’s that
simple.
Yeah, people benefit from it (likely), but
there are some people who are in life
situations that would not be kosher to go.
Should the guy who just got his girlfriend
pregnant go? Er, no. Someone with severe
parental issues? No. In fact, we were
encouraged to be something like counselors to
them on some issues like that (obviously not
on a professional level), to encourage our
kids to go through the process, and if
possible, help them to get here. Oddly enough,
some of my favorite kids to call were people I
knew would never go to the Honor Academy. Not
only was I okay with that, when I would hang
up the phone, I’d schedule when I’d call them
again (to see how they were coping or doing,
whatever), and feel more encouraged than I
could possibly have made them.
Now yeah, it might seem like it’s hard to NOT
get accepted… this is partly true. There is
a bit of screening that goes on, mostly at
something like step 4 of the application
process (history involving questions like
“Have you struggled with homosexuality?” and
“have you ever been sexually active?” and the
like). The purpose of those questions is to
see if the applicant has had those experiences
(Captain Obvious), but also how they’re doing
in moving past some of those issues.
Obviously, you don’t want someone who is
currently struggling with suicidal thoughts
and actions coming to the internship,
particularly if they have issues coping with
stress. You don’t want a guy who is absolutely
girl crazy, and whose life motto happens to be
‘anything that moves.’ Yeah, a bit crass, but
it gets the point across. Perhaps courtesy of
my naivete, I’m thinking that most Christians
the HA shoots for are mature enough that most
of those things won’t be issues (though it’s
perfectly understandable for them to be in a
romantic relationship, and to have dealt with
at least one of those issues they have
listed).
I dig that Jesus picks everyone. I’d be really
in a bind if He didn’t, because I’m about 100%
sure that I’d be on His ‘naughty’ list if He
were selective. I do agree with you on the
idea that it should be stated up-front that
it’s a possibility that a person could not be
accepted to the HA, at least at the present
time. When I left the Honor Academy, I was
given the impression that the standards for
acceptance were going to be tighter. I think
that’s a good thing, personally, but not as a
personal affront to any person that applies
and doesn’t get in.
March 12, 2010 10:56 AM
Lisa said…
Security, I agree that it’s logical to assume that there will be people who drop out of any type of program after realizing it isn’t for them. Of course. But it’s so contradictory to the way (particularly during times like the ring banquet, job placements, counseling in times of struggle, telling them you want to leave, etc.) they make statements like “If you made it here it’s God’s will for you to be here” Thats pretty bold and was drilled in pretty hard. To the point of telling those who did not receive the “encouraging letters from home” for the ring ceremony that they needn’t feel disappointed that their families weren’t supportive, it was more important to realize they were there under God’s approval just for the fact that they were accepted and had made it to that point.
Humans make mistakes, absolutely. Aren’t we to then admit to those mistakes and correct the behavior as not to continue the same mistakes? This sounds familiar…I think it’s called rep..repents? repentance?
March 12, 2010 11:11 AM
Nick said…
RA, just found your blog thanks to the e-mail, and it looks like you’re doing a really good thing. I was an intern 01-02, and made it through relatively unscathed, largely because I was blessed with an amazing group of friends and placed in a department that sheltered me from the crazy. After reading this blog all morning (when I should be working on my papers for grad school), the thing that has struck me the most is not the ways people were hurt, but those instances where someone fought hard to clear a place for grace there, like Brenda Bertrand in Carrie’s Story.
That said, I feel obligated to give a shout out to the I.T. department of 00-03, especially Ron Fuller, Jordan Gross, and Jason Kallner. They carved out a safe place for all of us in their department, and for a number of people that weren’t in the department but were part of that family.
I had a lot of negative experiences, most of which pale in comparison to the stories here, but when I think about my Honor Academy experience, all I can think of is that place of grace, which drew its strength from NOT being a part of the overall culture.
So, I just wanted to highlight that cool aspect of grace I see in other people’s stories, and to share my own.
March 12, 2010 11:25 AM
natalie said…
My views from the mob were a little different than Josh’s (who I think was actually IN the mob when I was. lol.) Granted I LOVED being in the mob and was their number 1 cheerleader at times. The way we went about getting people to come to the H.A. often could be… wrong.
There was some serious lying and cheating that went down -I know of one of my good friends, and this still makes me laugh, would actually not put down the true answers to the questions so the kids would get accepted. (and this may or may not have been because they were giving away an ipod to who ever could get the most app’s completed…)
We all had our pitches, maybe some people actually believed what they were saying, but I was sitting there like, “Your core adviser will be awesome! (uhhh.. I haven’t even TALKED to my core adviser in a month.), the LTE’s are great! (accept they don’t make a whole lot of since.), Classes rock! (actually, they’re kinda lame…), Your family core will be there to protect you! (Mine just ditched me last night… and I’ve never even talked to my bro core adviser and some of the guys in that core.)”…
In my year there was this big deal about getting 500 interns. So Mr. Hasz would come in and give us pep talks. He told us that calling for the H.A. was our main priority. And though there were going to be kids that had struggles we were not their counselors. We needed to make our call times and not be worried about their actual lives. And – it made since. I sure went with it. It still makes since. I’m just saying, he wasn’t caring too much about our generations spiritual lives in that moment, he definitely wanted 500 interns.
We only got 380 or something. then like 50 left.
I don’t really know what’s up with security’s and Josh’s comment. Because my experience was, ‘anyone is accepted.’ I mean, VERY VERY VERY few were NOT accepted. But if you couldn’t make it through you were obviously a terrible Christian.
Oh shoot, the way we used to talk about people who got dismissed, or worse! Just left!!! It was not, “The H.A. isn’t for everyone…” It was, “Do you KNOW what HE/SHE did?!” in some pretty judgmental conversations. And we all felt pretty justified. Gossip is a sin. But surely THAT wasn’t gossip. We were protecting ourselves from being like… THAT. uhg.
I don’t know, that’s what I saw. And I heard the staff members talking about the applications. They could be pretty harsh (to say the least). I also heard what the interns had to say about some of the incoming class. “I can’t believe THEY got accepted! They struggle with such’n’such sin. If I were Mr. Hasz I wouldn’t let um in.” you know, an intern all hyped up ready to judge someone else and change the H.A. to make it, ‘better.’
Anyways, I think when he says, ‘any person would benefit from being at the Honor Academy’ he means it. That’s what he ingraved in our heads as the mob. and that’s what he told us in class.
March 12, 2010 11:53 AM
Anonymous said…
The intent of his comment “any young person you know would benefit from being at the Honor Academy” is being misrepresented in this post.
Dave is saying that you should contact people if you are confident that the person would benefit from being at the Honor Academy.
March 12, 2010 12:04 PM
Anonymous said…
It seems that when the HA says “We’re not for everyone”, it’s in relation to some disqualifying factor. The idea that some strong believer may not be a “good fit” because of something that the HA is committed to isn’t even on the radar.
March 12, 2010 12:45 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Last anon – I think that is a GREAT point. It deserves to be shouted from the roof-tops.
The reason I bring up this issue is the shame associated with the statement “the HA is not for everyone.” Normally, though not always, this is said with condescension. You might as well be saying to the intern “You are not good enough.” I think Natalie highlights this well in her comment.
Of course, in any program you will have drop-outs for various reasons. The issue is that people are SHAMED for leaving. They are told that they are either breaking their word (bad Christian!), being disobedient, rebellious or possibly even losing their salvation. Why can’t people just leave without condemnation?
I’ll tell you why – because then TM couldn’t count on their free labor.
March 12, 2010 1:14 PM
Anonymous said…
i’ve said this before and i will say it again…ron luce is a freakin’ genius! RA, it’s not free labor, it’s profit labor! we all paid to work for ron luce. brilliant. absolutely brilliant.
March 12, 2010 2:29 PM
Dan Gross said…
I will say that I can’t relate Jesus’ universal acceptance of people to every human program on earth. I’m sure that’s not exactly where you were going with that comment, RA, so this is more of a general statement than a rebuttal. Scuba diving isn’t for everyone. Charismatic churches aren’t for everyone. Chess clubs aren’t for everyone. And surely, whether we love or hate the Honor Academy, it’s not for everyone either. I suppose the question this blog posts as a little more akin to “Is the Honor Academy for anyone?”
I don’t have the answer to that question, but I will concur that making the statement “this isn’t for everyone” certainly feels condescending, whether they say it with that intention or not (I don’t believe that they do). And Anon 11:53, I get your point, but I don’t think RA was trying to misconstrue Dave’s words as much as show that everyone, Dave Hasz included, speaks in contradictions from time to time. The thing that makes HA and TM staff unique is that it feels like they draw such a hard behavioral line, and yes, to quit or be dismissed from the Honor Academy, culturally speaking, is a shameful thing to do.
The contradiction there being, if you’re going to invite everyone, and accept everyone, then say it’s not for everyone, why shame people when they get there only to discover they’re one of the everyone it’s not for? Just doesn’t make much sense.
March 12, 2010 3:18 PM
Dan Gross said…
Gosh I wish I could go back and edit my comments. Grammatical errors and slips abound!
This:
I suppose the question this blog posts as a little more akin to “Is the Honor Academy for anyone?”
Should be this:
I suppose the question this blog poses is a little more akin to “Is the Honor Academy for anyone?”
March 12, 2010 3:19 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Dan – Yes, I think your last paragraph sums up the problem well.
But, let me respond to something you said in your 1st paragraph:
“I will say that I can’t relate Jesus’ universal acceptance of people to every human program on earth. I’m sure that’s not exactly where you were going with that comment, RA, so this is more of a general statement than a rebuttal. Scuba diving isn’t for everyone. Charismatic churches aren’t for everyone. Chess clubs aren’t for everyone.”
Yes, scuba diving isn’t for everyone – but I that would be comparing apples to oranges. People come to the HA to grow in the Lord. It is a distinctly Christian program meant to encourage spiritual growth – so we do have to hold it up to the light of Scripture. Obviously, scuba diving, boy scouts, chess club, etc. are not held to the same standards.
I don’t think you are doing this, but I hear alot of people make excuses about how TM doesn’t have to act like Jesus b/c its an organization. That makes NO sense. Especially since the supposed point of the HA is to make people more like Jesus.
March 12, 2010 3:29 PM
Dan Gross said…
Totally see your point there, RA. Very well stated. I suppose where we may differ somewhat philosophically (maybe theologically? I wouldn’t go that far 🙂 is that I wouldn’t say it’s apples to oranges. I’d say it’s more like, Red Delicious to Granny Smith.
One of the beliefs I hold that has drastically changed since my time with TM is that organizations of its kind, or any kind, really, are actually a very human affair. My participation in scuba, for me, is very much akin to my participation in TM’s internship program.
The danger I see, that I feel TM and organizations like it often do, is when an organization uses terms like “vision” or “calling” or “cause”. Or worse: ordained. I’m not saying these things don’t exist, but rather as you’ve stated on this site several times, when someone positions themselves as the “voice of God” or the “man of God” or whatever, it’s very difficult to differ from them. Suddenly, to criticize them is to criticize God Himself.
TM’s Honor Academy, nay, TM itself, is a human endeavor that may or may not be operating under God’s blessing. I guess what I’m saying is that whether I’m on a cruise (which I will be in a month…woo hoo!) or running 50 miles or sitting in a Bible study, I think it all should be to God’s glory.
Then again, this is really just my opinion. 🙂
March 12, 2010 4:30 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Dan, I think we probably agree and it may just be an issue of semantics. Yes, everything we do should be for God’s glory. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise, only to point out that groups that bring themselves under the authority of Jesus and the Bible do actually have to answer to that authority.
You hit the nail on the head here: “Suddenly, to criticize them is to criticize God Himself.”
I think THAT is an issue that is bringing a lot of condemnation on interns/alumni.
March 12, 2010 4:34 PM
Former Mob Staff said…
When I was on staff with the MOB I made it my greatest effort to bring grace and love to the youth we called. The questions that Josh referred to on the application weren’t to disqualify an individual from attending to HA but to help them in any way possible. I met with Jose Cano (professional counselor) for hours upon hours and spent my personal time researching resources in which to help each individual grow before starting their internship. (Or not starting at all.) I know that many teenagers will not take the time to read the books we recommended or to seek out the ministries that were better suited for their needs but nevertheless we offered the information. I was only there for a short time (9 months) and I only pray that these standards are still in place. I read thousands of applications (I prefer to look at them as stories of people’s lives) and my heart was touched. Many nights I would cry after reading the stories of what people have been through.
One girl who we felt was not ready to attend the HA due to a stress level she would not be able to handle, I had to tell she and her mom that she wasn’t accepted. Her mom pleaded with me and I still had to stand on that decision. I later referred her to another ministry where she got help with her struggles and the mom called me months later crying and thanking me.
Many times I would tell the MOB, “The HA is a tool that God uses but it is not the ONLY tool.” I believed that humility needed to be conveyed on he phones and if someone was to say there were going to Bible College or attending IHOP then we should bless them and send them on their way.
As a graduate of the HA and a youth pastor who many years later became a staff member (for a short time) let me just say this: If you are looking for an organization to be perfect and to represent God in 100% light of who he is, you will never find it. I have been burned by TM and it has taken me a long time to get over it. But unforgiveness and resentment only hurts me and it only hurts you.
I once met an alumnus on a mission trip that I was leading for another organization. I saw his honor ring and told him I was an alumnus too. He looked at me with a frown and frankly declared, “Oh! I believe in grace now.” Cheerfully I responded, “That’s wonderful! Me too!” After getting to know him I think we were on two separate pages. After much study about grace let me just say this- Grace is not a license to sin. (I’m not saying any of you believe this but many people do.) In fact, GRACE is the power in which God enables us NOT to sin. Not because God demands perfection out of us but because he loves us and knows that sin hurts us. And how cool is He that He gives us the power to overcome the very thing that destroys our lives. I am not walking in the 100% fullness of his power but I know it lives in me and through me. Each day I am being changed from glory to glory and only HIS WORD transforms me. (Not an organization.)
Over the years I have realized that too many interns start their journey at TM with eyes wide open only to be disappointed and left hurt and wounded. This saddens me. I commend your efforts, RA, for reaching out to this group of people. Unfortunately there are a lot of us out there.
I will leave you with this: Fix your eyes on JESUS, the author an perfecter of your faith! He will NEVER leave you nor forsake you. =) Grace & Peace to you all.
March 12, 2010 4:47 PM
Dan Gross said…
@RA Yes, I’m certain we agree way more than we disagree. 🙂 And yes, if TM purports to be a Christian organization, they really do have the responsibility to conduct themselves like Jesus. Then again, so should my scuba instructor, if she claims Christianity as her faith.
I guess what I’m saying, and perhaps you view it this way as well, that outside of holding them accountable to scripture, and inside my life experience, I literally equate the internship and all of my trips with TM with my time in the military, my hobbies, and on some level, even my marriage. They are all experiences that add up to make me who I am today, and I don’t necessarily attach any “divine meaning” to any of them any more than others. Whereas, TM will use verses like Psalm 37:23 and suggest that being there is some kind of God-ordained experience, more so than, say, eating a cheeseburger for lunch that day. Thus, to quit or be dismissed is actually in stark contrast to the divine will of God, whether it’s “for you” or not.
Anyway, I’m REALLY taking this down a rabbit trail that only remotely resembles your original post. 🙂 I suppose the way I’d bring it back around is to say that based on how I see things, I’d say that the answer to whether the Honor Academy (or anything else) is right for everyone is no…and yes. It’s really up to the individual. I’m not sure God has anything more (or less) to do with someone participating in HA than He does with whether they accidentally slip and break their arm on the ice when leaving their house on a wintery day.
But then we start to get into Calvinism vs. Arminianism, and wow, we’ll have opened a can of worms then (and drastically diverged from the purpose of your site). 😉
March 12, 2010 5:10 PM
Dan Gross said…
And because I’ve been commenting in two’s lately…
I do want to clarify that I’m not suggesting that certain events or experiences aren’t more important than others. Certainly my time with TM is vastly more important to me than what I had for lunch today. And perhaps God is more involved in those types of experiences. I’m not sure. My point above is simply that for me, the internship and my trips with TM weren’t part of some grand Godly scheme any more than other major life experiences have been.
March 12, 2010 5:13 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
@Dan – I hear what you are saying. I think we’ll leave the Calvinism vs. Arminiasm to another post, or better yet, another blog. That conversation just makes me tired. 🙂
March 12, 2010 5:16 PM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
RA – Yeah don’t even get me started on the whole Calvinism vs. Armenism debate! Haha! Had too many of those at the HA.
At the end of the day, we’re supposed to be a messianic community; THE church; a BODY of believers. Yet there is so much division. We need to stand united against the enemy 🙂
Oh by the way, i’m not necessarily referring to this blog – I’m talking about Teen Mania, YWAM….believers all over the world 🙂
I knew quite a few MOB people. Who also called themselves “PIMPs” ….but I can’t remember what that acronym stood for?
I can also attest to how much they were pushed to focus on numbers more than the individuals. Wow – what a great way to change the world huh? From what I’ve heard from ex-MOB guys (and GE and ATF callers) it used to be about the people. You used to prayerfully make each call, and frequently break for prayer together. But now it’s like call, call, CALL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great business mentality, awful Kingdom mentality.
March 12, 2010 7:14 PM
Josh said…
To Natalie- I can’t honestly say that I know who you are off the top of my head, but I don’t doubt you. When it came to applications, I tried to do mine in all honesty. I might have wanted the iPod that week, but I wasn’t willing to cheat for it. Actually, I apparently was naive enough to not have had the thought occur to me that others were doing it at all. I believed all the things I said on the phone, and if that makes me a little odd or naive or out-of-touch, then I’ll take those and be happier with it. My HA experience is probably something approaching the ideal, perhaps, because I enjoyed almost every facet of it- I loved my family core, and we did dang-near everything together, I enjoyed most of the classes (though some I could have done without), the LTEs did make sense to me, and I enjoyed my MP greatly. Needless to say, I tended to gush a bit on the phone, so… yeah.
I do seem to remember the push for a lot of interns, more than the year prior, and your recollection of Mr. Hasz’s talks to us is probably a little sharper than my own. Regardless, if he did ever say to not be their counselors, I diregarded that as if my life depended on it. Half the time, that was my favorite part of the call. During that push, yeah, a lot of people were accepted. I had kind of forgotten about that.
On dismissal, I’ll admit that my views on interns who are dismissed are far from the norm. My experiences in the MOB and with my friends who left were all good, and I still talk to many of them. The HA isn’t for everyone, or maybe G-d only called them for 6 months. I don’t know, but it’s not my place to judge ’em or trash ’em for it, and I frankly don’t have the heart to do so. For interns who had done ‘certain things,’ I wish that we could all look at one another with the eyes of Christ, and just say “Hey, I’m screwed up too,” and let that be it.
To Mob Staff, I think I might know you. Pretty sure, actually. I remember praying for the kids on all of my assorted lists (they kept changing! AH!), and praying with them were some of my favorite parts of the calls. If my list got switched up, I’d hunt down those who I felt needed some help, and if they were transferred to another intern, I’d tell them about that person. If they got no one, well, I could take another person back onto my list- to me, people are important, always, and they will always trump numbers. It’s like the parable of the shepherd and the one lost lamb- it’s just as important as the 99 left behind, so it’s worth sacrificing for. Maybe I didn’t make much of a difference in their lives, but they made one in mine. The idea that the HA is one tool among many was one of the conclusions I came to, and I would often encourage the kids on my list to do whatever they felt G-d called them to- MC, YWAM, the military, the workforce, college, whatever- G-d knows better than I what they should do.
Ex-Intern- PIMPs? If I missed that train, I’m more than glad, even if it stood for something good. Not a word I’m particularly fond of. As for the numbers thing again, as above, I loved each call I made. Sometimes I didn’t want to make them, but when they got on the phone, that always changed. We should love people too much to care about numbers.
March 12, 2010 7:59 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Josh – you are a rare bird. I like you and I like your comments. Shoot me an email, I’d like to ask you a few questions.
March 12, 2010 8:51 PM
Anonymous said…
The Honor Academy for everyone? Nope it isn’t. There is no way it is for everyone. I think that the intent of that comment is entirely different from the way you have interpreted it.
In my opinion, it is saying that you should contact 3 people that you are confident / that you have an inkling of knowledge that they will thrive and grow at the HA.
As for the matter of acceptance, well, my first application was turned down. I can look back now and say that it was a good thing for me that it was. Because I had quite the person talking with me I was able to see past my anger at that and see that I really wasn’t ready. Of course, this was a decade ago (literally) and the way things are being run and have been run the last 5+ years are probably quite different now.
March 12, 2010 11:52 PM
Natalie said…
@-Josh. Yeah, after I typed it I remembered you were a January AFTER I graduated. (I think?) either that or you were in the mob when I was. I just didn’t get to know many of the newer interns.
oh, It WAS NOT the norm to lie on the paper work. haha. I might have got caught up in the craziness of what we actually did, saying it from my perspective NOW not then, making it sound a way worse than it was. Goodness. We were all striving to be world-changers. And when he would do that, it was FUNNY because of his boldness and desire to get interns to go. I was blown away like, “Wow. That’s dedication. Risking his job to get someone in.” The thing about the IPOD– haha, though true– was not the ONLY motivation.
But. On that note. It WAS about the ipod often. From what I remember we were constantly being pushed with different promotions. And hounded on to get more apps. And the ones that got more apps completed were the ones that moved up in leadership.
At the time I thought I was really doing something! I actually thought that by not telling the truth, and making the H.A. sound good, was the right thing to do. Mostly cause I thought I was the only one whose C.A. didn’t like them or was confused after UPG or really hated fasting. By getting that ‘young person’ to go to the H.A. their lives would be changed and they would know God more.
Oh and I mentored them all! Shoot. I think I MIGHT have completed like, one application. haha. I was always over on my call times, It was common to have two or three half hour long conversations that just ended up with, “yeah, so you want to come to the H.A.? no? cool.” hahahaha.
But I was not one that was looked at as a ‘good worker’ that’s for sure.
So I guess I’m expressing my opinion from what I see NOW understanding just a little bit more God’s grace, love and mercy toward us.
Like I said, I didn’t THINK I was gossiping. I didn’t THINK lying to people was wrong if it got them there. I was trying my hardest to really please our loving God. Cause I really love Him.
I don’t regret a second at the H.A., now. But when I left it was a really terrible situation and it took me probably a year and a half to actually realize all the damage that was done. But now, I’m practically rotfl (with Joy) at the thought of my time at T.M. cause *like Dan Gross said* It’s all to the glory of God!
March 13, 2010 1:14 AM
Josh said…
Natalie- I’m a whole lot better with faces than with names, but I think I’m getting something. I remember a lot of people coming in and helping the MOB out quite often, so it would hardly surprise me if you were among them. I ended up meeting loads of interns, though, both Jans and Augusts (of both August classes), and I’m sure there was more than one of almost any name.
We did seem to have a whole lot of pressure on getting apps, for sure. I think that, for many people in the MOB, it might have taken the focus off of what this was all supposed to be for. I don’t think that it was necessarily a bad idea, but I don’t think there was a person in the whole of the MP that DIDN’T want the iPod, y’know? I’m right there with you, though- I’d have some conversations that were hours-long, sometimes multiple in a day. I’d have like 12 calls on a 5 hour day, but hey, those calls were at least 20 minutes apiece! I had some weeks where I maybe finished 3 apps, and others where I’d knocked out 5 each day (I think that happened… once, and it was all from the work the week before).
As I mentioned before, I probably had something approaching the ‘ideal’ intern experience. My family was largely close, with those few that went off to do their own thing, I enjoyed my MP, I liked the classes and LTEs- it really, honestly hadn’t occurred to me for some time that others wouldn’t have that sort of experience, that it could be so drastically different from my own. It wasn’t the fault of the HA, just from my own personality. Yeah, interns had problems, but we all did, and most of the people I knew were smiling… It’s easy to hide, but it seemed that most of the friends I had were being as open and honest as I tried to be day-in and day-out.
March 13, 2010 2:25 AM
Anonymous said…
I was the HA Admissions Manager for 4 years. Although none of us are perfect, I can tell you that I prayerfully considered each and every application that came across my desk for those 4 years. If I did not have peace to accept an applicant, I stood by the decision. I only share this not to judge or appear defensive in any way, but to shed some light on where our hears were when reviewing applications.
March 13, 2010 10:20 AM
Natalie said…
@Josh – I actually worked in the mob when I was a GI too. That’s how I remember you. (Your light shown BRIGHT. I instantly thought – “Now there is a kid who is humble and loves God.” and it still does. Even reading your comments. You’re a peace maker (Matt 5:9 😉
@anonymous. Really?!?!? I believe you totally. I just NEVER saw that. Granted. I got involved with the mob at an awkward time. There were two staff members who had just left and entirely new leadership took over litterally just weeks before I was added. I had heard the previous staff members were AWESOME (and something tells me that was you. 🙂
But when the leadership structure changed so drastically things sort of fell apart. That was the consensus I took from my other co-workers.
And that was also the same time when the goal of getting 500 new interns to come was initiated. So I was brought in with the mentality of “Get as many apps filled out as possible.”
I want to apologize for my potentially off base comments. I really am not in ‘intern’ mode any more. I’ve been posting my comments based on where I’m at NOW with my walk in the Lord and after realizing a few of the deceptions I believed at T.M. (mostly due to having never experienced that type of church culture, being newly saved and thinking it was the greatest thing in the world. I had never learned HOW to ‘take things with a grain of salt.’)
When I was an INTERN – I LOVED the mob! I didn’t think their was a single thing wrong with the application processes. I thought it was great that they accepted everyone. I wanted everyone to come and grow in the Lord.
My co-workers and I would go to the caff and stay up until midnight (but never break curfew of course.) stratigizing new idea’s of how we could reach people on the phones, make the mob better. And we followed through on a lot of them, even starting prayer meetings and seeing a mini revival for like a month where kids were getting saved every day or breaking free of strong holds. We would even come in AFTER work and make phone calls cause we just… LIKED it.
There were bright sides, God was TOTALLY at work in our lives, oh man, I LOVE our God! He NEVER leaves us and uses all things to His glory and for OUR good! I don’t regret a SECOND of my time at T.M.
But taking my entire experience (which was a little more ummm… hellish? than most..) and looking at the whole picture, I see MOSTLY a very messed up system that left me very confused for a year and a half.
March 13, 2010 11:02 AM
Keith said…
This comment will be all over the place, but I hope it comes together in the end and makes sense as a response to the initial post and some of the comments prior to this.
I went through my year at the HA with a sense of not belonging there as much as I thought I initially needed to. Did I feel condemned or unloved from God….NO! When I hear the comment “The Honor Academy is not for everyone” I don’t think of it as being condemning in any sense. I felt like it wasn’t totally for me, but I was still able to take a lot away from it and able to learn enough to know that a program and rules can’t make me closer to God, nor was it ever intended to.
When I was in the HA (02-03), there was a strong push from nearly all of the instructors that our relationship with God is not based on “performance”. This gave me the sense that the HA was set up with a duel purpose: 1 To provide labor for TM while providing opportunity for ministry (serving) to willing vessels and 2 to provide a framework one could use to solidify their walk with God.
I will briefly touch on the first purpose since it seems to have come up several times throughout this blog: I personally don’t think TM makes a ton of money off of interns. I truly believe the money I paid to be there was a great deal to live for an entire year volunteering for a ministry and getting all of the classes and activities they provided. I personally spend almost as much as the entire internship cost me in 2 or 3 months just to survive (food, shelter, medical & transportation for my family).
As for the second point. A framework is a tool one can use or not use. It is very tempting to put your faith in a framework, especially one as rigid as TM’s. I think, despite what I was told (“don’t have a performance based faith”) I often put my faith in the HA process rather than treating it as a tool. If anyone puts their faith in an organization to “bring them closer to God” they have a very flawed approach to start with. Do I think this framework is evil? No way! I think it turned out to be a great tool for my life and one that has helped me stay focused on God’s eternal goals and His loving heart. I would never want to suggest that an individual would be at fault for putting their faith in a system rather than their creator, it would have to be an organization’s fault (sarcasm, sorry).
An interesting side note. The woman I married was dismissed from the Honor Academy (No, we didn’t meet in the HA). Of all the people who left, she is one of the few who I know the reason why. She had to leave because her mother became terminally ill. I’m pretty sure she doesn’t feel guilty for it, nor was she judged by “everyone”. I think a lot of the “not for you”/dismissed/didn’t finish judgmental mentality may come from a personal problem which likes company (hence the gossip).
Do I think that anyone could benefit from the Honor Academy? Yes, anyone who wants to can benefit from the Honor Academy. Is the Honor Academy for everyone? No, it’s not for everyone, and this has nothing to do with how disciplined, spiritual or “called” the individual is.
March 15, 2010 4:09 PM
Anonymous said…
The Honor Academy as a lot to offer. every one can find something to take away from there experience. but i also feel that some personality’s do not do very well there. for example if you are the type that learns by questioning things or needs in-depth explanations, you might find TM has no tolerance for you.
March 15, 2010 4:28 PM
Keith said…
Excuse me, I’m the type of person who asks a lot of questions and I also require in-depth explanations. I found they had plenty of tolerance for me at TM. No, I didn’t fit in as well as some, but fitting in has nothing to do with having a good or bad experience. Now, on the other hand, if you’re the type of person who is consistently cynical and wants explanations to prove your own point, no one but your own personal, complaining, circle of friends will tolerate you.
March 15, 2010 4:58 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Or, if you don’t have anything to contribute to the points presented on this blog besides the typical “ur bitter”, then you’ll do great at the Honor Academy.
March 15, 2010 5:21 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Haha, my bad Keith; I didn’t see your thought-out comment above.
However, your last comment did come off slightly douchey, just so you know.
March 15, 2010 5:29 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Keith, glad your questions were answered patiently – others did not have that experience.
March 15, 2010 5:36 PM
Anonymous said…
Sorry about shooting back like that. It’s hard to express your feelings in typing. It is at least for me.
Keith
March 15, 2010 11:55 PM
Keith said…
I need to explain something from an earlier comment I made. When I said “complaining, circle of friends” I was not referring to this blog site, I was referring to a certain personality type.
March 16, 2010 3:14 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Ah, I see. I apologize for taking it the wrong way; I’m used to seeing such accusations and automatically jumping to the defensive 😛
March 16, 2010 4:03 PM
Anonymous said…
ok so I’m normally a bit on point with you but I think this is reaching a bit. When I read that statement that Dave put on his site, knowing that the HA isn’t for everyone, I know what he is getting at…..I don’t know I think sometimes we make things seem bigger than they really are and I think this may be one of those times……just my opinion
Lastly let me say that that the HA in no way accepts everyone, I used to work in admissions and trust me when I say, they definitely DON’t accept everyone 🙂
Thanks, keep the posts coming!
Josh, 99
March 16, 2010 4:39 PM
Anonymous said…
Josh, you will find that most of the stuff on this site is “reaching” a bit.
March 16, 2010 5:42 PM
Candor said…
I was in the MOB and it was definitely a numbers game. It was so systematically calculated that we had to fill out a sheet every day with how many people we’d called. We would document if they answered, weren’t home, it was a wrong #, they didn’t speak English, etc.
I was so tired and wore out from the constant “telemarketing” that after several months, I would call a number, let it ring once, and hang up for the sole purpose of having called X number of people that day. I was honestly too depressed and dissatisfied with my time there to encourage anyone else to attend the HA. It was emotionally and spiritually draining to have to live with the guilt of lying to prospective interns by telling them everything was “great” and that “I love it!”
(For the record, nobody in leadership forced me to lie but I guarantee I would have been BV’d had I spoken with candor and told any of the prospective interns that I cried myself to sleep many nights and couldn’t wait for my one-year contract to expire.)
Other times I was so eager for contact with the outside world that I would have 30-45 minute chats with prospective interns about new music and movies I was missing. My supervisors had several talks with me as they wanted quick calls. The calls were expected to hear how interested they were in attending or if they had been already accepted, to make sure everything was in order for their arrival (finances, insurance, etc). We were told to end every call by asking if we could “pray with them.” Frankly, most of the time, I just wanted them to pray for me.
March 20, 2010 12:57 AM
Anonymous said…
I wasn’t accepted at first. I was told my relationship with the Lord wasn’t where it needed to be.
yeah… should have seen the red flag.
April 22, 2010 12:58 PM
Anonymous said…
You know, yall really need to stop… its really immature.
May 13, 2010 6:20 PM
Anonymous said…
do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. WHY DO YOU LOOK AT THE SPECK OF SAWDUST IN YOUR BROTHERS EYE AND PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE PLANK IN YOUR OWN EYE???? Matthew 7:1-4
iam just saying….
May 13, 2010 6:28 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Oh dang, LOOK OUT YOU GUYS, it’s the Immaturity Card!
Do you even know what that word means? Is everything that disagrees with TM “immature”?
May 13, 2010 7:46 PM
Eric P. said…
Anon @ 6:28 — You’re saying that TM supporters should stop judging us for the speck of “complaining” because they have a plank of abuse in their eye? Sounds reasonable to me.
May 14, 2010 11:06 AM
Anonymous said…
You guys just need to take it to God and realize that He will get you through any bitterness, rage, and anger you have with people. The cool thing about it is that i am so happy that this is happening to the Honor Academy, because like the bible says in James: Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be MATURE complete, not lacking anything 🙂
God is so good!!!!
and also in James Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood to the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
Amen!!!
prays the Lord the Honor Academy is going through persecution and trials because that means we are doing something right
I pray for an end to all this and that all you guys go to that person you have bitterness for and get forgiveness in your hearts 🙂
because each person here at the Honor Academy has an open heart to each and everyone of you.
How can you stand and worship and praise the Lord All Mighty when you have no forgiveness and bitterness in your heart???
The bible says Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive the men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your father will not forgive your sins.
And i am sure you know this one to…
Mark 11:24-25
Therefore i tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against ANYONE, FORGIVE HIM, SO THAT YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN MAY FORGIVE YOU YOUR SINS.
🙂
Love yall and i am praying…
May 14, 2010 11:10 PM
Anonymous said…This post has been removed by a blog administrator.May 14, 2010 11:16 PM
Anonymous said…This post has been removed by a blog administrator.May 14, 2010 11:20 PM
Anonymous said…
dear last anon.
you exhaust me with your non-sensical bible babble.
go read a psychology book.
or is the bible all you need to respond to what i consider in depth conversation about behavior, identity, community and psychological healing?
sorry but that is not gonna work here.
May 15, 2010 12:43 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
I’ve already addressed the bitterness comments in a throughly Biblical manner…try reading the comment policy.
May 15, 2010 1:35 AM
Shannon Kish said…
Anon, next time I deal with a rape victim (which in my field happens all too often) I will be sure to counsel them the way you have, “Just take it to God. He will get you through the bitterness, rage, pain, anger, and other feelings you experience from being raped.”
By all means, rape victim/person grieving, do NOT talk about it with other people who have had similar experiences because that isn’t following Biblical guidelines on how to get over your pain.
Anon, please go somewhere else.
May 15, 2010 11:12 AM
Eric P. said…
Anon @ 11:10– “But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it?” (1 Peter 2:20).
It’s only “persecution” if it’s for doing something good–systematic cover-ups of physical and emotional abuse doesn’t count.
May 17, 2010 9:51 AM
Anonymous said…
yes and the bible is my source that should be your only source thank you!
🙂
May 19, 2010 4:17 PM
Anonymous said…
oh hey let me tell you something. i have been raped before… have to say i did take it to God and he walked me thought the hole thing 🙂
so maybe you should do the same.
May 19, 2010 4:19 PM
Anonymous said…This post has been removed by a blog administrator.May 19, 2010 4:21 PM
Anonymous said…This post has been removed by a blog administrator.May 19, 2010 4:22 PM
Anonymous said…
you just said the bible shouldn’t be your source.. sounds like a messed up world view to me… are you not a follower of God… because i believe his world is way stronger than any other book…. wouldn’t you say?? hmmm. i know Gods word can get anyone through anything. Do you not believe that it can???
May 19, 2010 4:33 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Anon – Nobody said that. I’ve made it clear that I believe in Scripture, but I obviously interpret it differently than you do. If you can’t abide by the comment policy, I will continue to delete your comments.
May 19, 2010 4:34 PM
Shannon Kish said…
anon- I will be honest.. I do NOT believe that the Bible can get anyone through anything. It certainly didn’t provide me with any comfort when I lost my mom. But, again, I am in the minority here on this blog, as I am an atheist.
May 19, 2010 5:49 PM
