I was put on probation at one point during the year for not having enough money. My honor ring was taken away, which was an important outward sign; not to be allowed to wear the honor ring was something to be ashamed of. The part that seemed most unjust to me was that I was being punished not even because of something I did, but because my supporters weren’t sending in the money they had pledged. Does this seem petty? I don’t mean it to be, but I am trying to provide enough details and stories to give a sense of what it was like there. I did eventually get my ring back, when my supervisor intervened. Rob Eicher was a bright spot at Teen Mania, and was someone in leadership that I still genuinely respect. I think that many of the leaders and staff felt as much pressure and condemnation as the interns felt. The Eichers didn’t stay on, they left after my year.
We were a mass of eighteen year olds, and so much time and energy went into worrying about honor rings, exercise, quiet times, and being good enough. We would work a full time job, have a three day fast, and build hundreds of bunk beds in a week before the summer missionaries arrived. We were an army of young people, just like the mission statement proclaimed, constantly being pushed to ignore our physical limitations and just do more. But the worst part was that this enthusiasm was not joyful, but manipulated through the spiritual pressure of all those lost souls hanging in the balance. I almost had a breakdown while there, just thinking about all the billions of people that were going to hell, and how no matter how much I did it wouldn’t be enough. One of my friends spent a good part of the year thinking he was going to hell and had lost his salvation. Other people had actual mental breaks. I remember one of the interns who worked in the cafeteria took to wearing a cape and pretending to be a superhero. I think his father had to come and get him.
Despite knowing that I was a bad intern, leaving Teen Mania was hard. It didn’t take long on campus for it to feel like the whole world. We knew it would be hard to follow God once we left, and were tempted by the world to become lukewarm. If people wanted to stay on fire for God then they would stay involved with Teen Mania. It was hard to imagine how anyone that wasn’t an intern could really know God like we did. And to be honest, even though the fact that not being good enough at Teen Mania made it easier not to feel better than everyone else, I did still feel like I wouldn’t really be following God when I went to college. It was a sad feeling, and made me more prone to finding another group that would provide a rigid structure and demand total commitment. I needed some outward way to show God that I really loved Him, so that He would keep loving me.
I don’t blame Teen Mania for all my misconceptions or lack of trust in God. I had eighteen years of life before Teen Mania that contributed its fair share as well. God is much bigger than Teen Mania or myself, and has been correcting me and drawing me to Him all along – before, during and after the internship. However, I do think the environment at Teen Mania was often at cross purposes with the mercy God was trying to show me, and with the grace He wanted me to understand.
The issues of abuse raised on the Recovering Alumni blog are real, and have been consistent over time. If anything it appears that the internship has grown more extreme since I was there twelve years ago. It is hard to believe it has been that long. Of course not everything that Dave and Ron are teaching is wrong, but I don’t think you will have to look too hard to find a gospel of works and legalism that has hurt many, many people.
31 comments:
Hey Katie – just wanted to say thanks for saying I was a bright spot at TM 🙂 You have been on my mind a lot lately – ever since spending a weekend in Columbus last month.
My heart breaks for those who have been hurt by Teen Mania, and I’m praying for you all as I read your stories. I pray you find grace, mercy, and healing.
I called TM after discovering this blog, and they are aware of it, and trying to make changes, as well as reconcile with people who have been hurt. I thought that was cool.
I don’t really like it that “comments spouting the TM party line will be deleted,” it doesn’t seem like that allows the “other side” to share their side of the story – but that’s just my two cents.
If any of you guys want to talk to an alumni and previous staff who feels like they can see both sides, you can find me on facebook.
Rob Eicher
February 25, 2010 9:36 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Rob,
Thanks for stopping by and adding your comment. Just to clarify the comment policy:
Comments that fall into the category of TM party line include variations of:
1) Teen Mania is doing great things so you can’t criticize them.
2) You shouldn’t blame or attack other Christians.
3)You are causing division.
4) You need to forgive and move on
5) You are not honorable. Pray to God and repent.
I’ve addressed all of these ideas on the blog already and NONE of these comments do anything to actually address the substance of my arguments here. They are therefore off-topic (and truly evidence the level of brainwashing that goes on at TM – since nearly EVERY intern says these things to me.)
However, sincere questions/comments that address the SUBSTANCE of the post will be approved. Stay on topic and deal with the specific ideas presented and I’ll be happy to approve them, even if I disagree.
February 25, 2010 10:28 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Also, you said,
“I called TM after discovering this blog, and they are aware of it, and trying to make changes, as well as reconcile with people who have been hurt.”
Honestly, that is hard for me to believe based on the fact that:
1) I have gotten emails from Dave in which he states that he essentially does not recognize the truth in the claims I am making. How could he then make changes?
2) I have Dave on video saying things like he doesn’t need to answer any of the charges on this blog b/c he is only accountable to Ron and the Board of Directors.
If he has changed his tune, my guess is it would be because the Board is now asking questions.
Just my two cents on the matter…
February 25, 2010 10:45 AM
carrie said…
“I almost had a breakdown while there, just thinking about all the billions of people that were going to hell, and how no matter how much I did it wouldn’t be enough.”
I remember that feeling vividly. The guilt that comes with that is crippling. I remember many times crying myself to sleep because the burden to share the gospel and get EVERYONE saved was just so huge. I am so thankful that I know now that it is not my job to save the world. It’s God’s. My only job now is to live in Love with Him and people I come into contact with.
Katie, I was in your class, and resonate with your story. Thank you for sharing. 🙂
February 25, 2010 11:50 AM
gc1998 said…
katie…i was also there your year, and i think you’ve perfectly encapsulated how it was. like lisa’s comment on one of the other posts…i have thought back on you and your clan and felt jealous; i didn’t question much while i was there…maybe more than some, but certainly not enough!
February 25, 2010 12:00 PM
Rob Eicher said…
Thanks for the clarity on the guidelines. I just got off the phone with Heath Stoner (Operations Director for the Honor Academy) and he said he would really like to talk to any one who has been hurt by TM. TM knows they have made mistakes in the past, and have been looking for ways to improve through the years.
Their discipline system has been completely revamped since I was on staff in ’99 and currently, it is pretty difficult to get dismissed. No more “one and done” policy. They are really trying to get people healing, rather than immediately dismissing people with issues (like all of us have).
I guess Heath had tried to respond a while ago, and somehow, what he had written was edited and then posted on the site, so he is a little gun shy to re-post. He would love a phone call to talk through things in order to see reconciliation. Ext. 8052
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 is my prayer. I’m so glad He no longer counts our sins against us, and thankful He loves us right now – not some future version that is a little more perfect.
Rob
February 25, 2010 12:32 PM
Rob Eicher said…
Thanks for the clarity on the guidelines. I just got off the phone with Heath Stoner (Operations Director for the Honor Academy) and he said he would really like to talk to any one who has been hurt by TM. TM knows they have made mistakes in the past, and have been looking for ways to improve through the years.
Their discipline system has been completely revamped since I was on staff in ’99 and currently, it is pretty difficult to get dismissed. No more “one and done” policy. They are really trying to get people healing, rather than immediately dismissing people with issues (like all of us have).
I guess Heath had tried to respond a while ago, and somehow, what he had written was edited and then posted on the site, so he is a little gun shy to re-post. He would love a phone call to talk through things in order to see reconciliation. Ext. 8052
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 is my prayer. I’m so glad He no longer counts our sins against us, and thankful He loves us right now – not some future version that is a little more “refined.”
Rob
February 25, 2010 12:35 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Woah, I have NEVER, EVER, EVER edited Heath’s comments. I’d like to know exactly what he is referring to there…
And, I know that Heath, Dave and Ron talk a good game when it comes to this – but I know several people who have dealt with them in the last weeks/months who say differently. The concerns they bring up have been continually ignored.
Its hard for me to talk about this b/c it becomes a my word against their situation. Maybe some of the people who have spoken with them recently will comment.
I truly do hope for changes and reconciliation – but despite all the claims of seeking reconciliation, I have yet to actually witness reasonable steps toward this.
As far as I know, TM has never even admitted wrongdoing. Admitting where they have actually wronged people instead of a generic “people were hurt” would go a long way.
Rob, I don’t want to scare you off with my opinions on this, b/c I value your contribution here, but I just have to be honest about what I’ve seen and heard based on MANY conversations and emails over the past few months.
February 25, 2010 12:39 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Off the top of my head, the only comment I recall on the blog from Heath is here.
February 25, 2010 12:41 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Mr Eicher, thanks for stopping by 🙂 It really does my heart good to see a member of leadership (past or present) be able to step into this blog and see BOTH points of view. Really, good show.
I would love to see your input on other posts here as well. I think you have a lot to contribute as a former staff member, to help us understand more of where leadership is coming from. Let’s be friends!
February 25, 2010 12:49 PM
Cesna said…
I think it’s possible, Mr. Eicher, that an intern was posing as Mr. Stoner. On previous posts, we saw it was possible to make it appear as if you’re actually that peson? Wasn’t it Mom with the ‘period’ comment that realized this?
Either way, it is against RA’s character to edit posts (aside from deleting off topic comments). So that’s a rather stupid assumption on Mr. Stoner’s part. Just calling it how it is.
February 25, 2010 2:39 PM
Rob Eicher said…
Glad I found this place – thanks for the welcome. I’ll shop around the site and make some comments when I have more time. I continue to ponder the question that has plagued me since giving my life to Jesus in 1991… “Why can’t we just all get along?” 🙂
Clinging to the Cross
February 25, 2010 2:48 PM
Rob Eicher said…
Cesna, seriously – you think an intern would pose as Heath? Not sensing a lot of objectivity there.
You all can call me Rob : )
February 25, 2010 2:52 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Well, one reason we all can’t get along is that if anybody speaks ill of Teen Mania then they are a backslidden, rebellious wicked sinner. Kind of hard to shrug off something like that when your entire validity as a person is discounted upon not thinking highly of the ministry. 😛
I recently informed my TM friends of my opinions on the place, and half of them treated me like a suicide patient!! No joke. They were like “noooo don’t do it we looovveee yooouuu”. You kind of leave that experience feeling rather dehumanized.
Also, while I do agree that I do not think Mr Stoner’s posts were false (no intern would even think to do that; the whole “intent to deceive” thing)…
I do think it’s unfair of him to claim that his posts were edited like that. It doesn’t happen. Really.
February 25, 2010 3:02 PM
Cesna said…
I don’t see any reason to be truly objective when my sister, my best friend, was turned into a judgemental legalistic pharisee by a ministry that betrayed our whole family. 🙂 And that’s quite obvious from your judgemental and coy manner of handling my suggestion, Mr. Eicher. I call my friends by their first name; which you are not yet. I do say ‘yet’, because out of anyone who served as TM staff, you seem the most open to seeing both sides come to an agreement and better understanding of the Grace Jesus died for. Which is very commendable.
However, I have very little tolerance for BS, which I don’t think you’re putting off, but I do think other staff members have oozed it. Forgive my reservations in fully trusting you. As of now. Though the fact you’re engaging in a critical thinking conversation is a good sign.
February 25, 2010 3:18 PM
Cesna said…
On that note: It’s not very objective to assume RA edited Heath’s posts. Just sayin’.
February 25, 2010 3:20 PM
carrie said…
rob,
thanks for being brave enough to comment, and to stay in the conversation. i am so thankful that you could be a loving presence in katie’s life, and the lives of other interns. i wish i could have known you myself. 🙂
RA is very reliable…i know this from personal experience and interaction. i think what many of us are looking for here is a place to admit how difficult our time at TM really was, a safe forum to be heard, a dedicated space to come together, vent, heal, and also be a resource for other alumni who have found themselves in similar circumstances. and maybe one day, ron and dave, etc., will take us seriously and DO SOMETHING about the nightmare they (inadvertently)created for so many kids over the years. i, personally, sent my story in after RA posted it on the blog earlier this month, and have not had more than a polite “thanks for writing” response. this is completely okay. i didn’t write my story to get an apology, i wrote it because i needed to do it for myself, for my continued healing, and for the 20 year old kid inside of me who is still a little scared to speak up.
i, too, wish we could all just get along. 🙂 that first requires everyone being heard, validated, and paradigm shifts on all parts. the absence of conflict does not always indicated the presence of peace, and i think that most definitely applies to TM. i think this blog is the best thing that could have happened to them right now.
thanks again for being a loving presence in this conversation.
carrie (jan 99)
February 25, 2010 4:08 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Okay, Immaletyoufinish, but I want to address this in Katie’s story:
“I was put on probation at one point during the year for not having enough money. My honor ring was taken away, which was an important outward sign; not to be allowed to wear the honor ring was something to be ashamed of.”
Okay, for them to take your ring is RIDICULOUS. I was financially dismissed and they didn’t take away my ring! What sort of reason was there behind that??
February 25, 2010 4:21 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Ok, I went back to look for all of Heath’s comments & this is what I found:
Aura of a Statesman
Dangerous Leadership
And this one where I copied from an email he sent me:
Why Are the Videos Gone?
I just doublechecked the post against the email he sent me and it was a DIRECT copy and paste. Absolutely no changes were made.
So, if I missing something, please let me know. I have never and would never intentionally change your statements, Heath.
In addition, I think its obvious that I really don’t need to lie to make my points about Teen Mania. Everything I have said has been backed up by multiple witnesses and I’ve even provided links to videos/blogs from TM when possible.
I have yet to be provided evidence by a single staff member or intern that I have ever misrepresented or lied about anything on this entire blog.
February 25, 2010 4:43 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
I know we’ve gotten a tad sidetracked, but I wanted to especially point out this line which I think Katie expressed so very well. This is EXACTLY how I remember my year.
“We were an army of young people, just like the mission statement proclaimed, constantly being pushed to ignore our physical limitations and just do more.”
February 25, 2010 4:51 PM
mom of ex-intern said…
to quote Rob quoting Heath:
“Their discipline system has been completely revamped since I was on staff in ’99 and currently, it is pretty difficult to get dismissed. No more “one and done” policy. They are really trying to get people healing, rather than immediately dismissing people with issues (like all of us have).”
REALLY??!!! My child was dismissed in 2009….
I do want to comment that Heath has reached out to us after I posted on the blog about my child’s dismissal and the ensuing mistakes the HA made during that process. He did apologize to us for the way my child not followed up with and has reached out to both child and us as a family in an effort to reconcile with us.
That being said–the reason that I continue to post comments on this blog is because 1) we, as a family, are processing all that has happened to our child and learn from it and grow, and 2) like RA, I want others to be able to process and heal from the experiences they had with TM. I also want to see changes made at HA–especially in the area of the Honor Council and the whole dismissal process. I was surprised to see the quote above that it had been revamped–I PRAY that now that leadership seems to be reading this blog–that they will see the errors in their teaching and policies and make changes.
February 25, 2010 6:45 PM
Ben said…
rob,
i’m really wondering about what you think of this particular thought from “Caleb’s Story” This challenges the very existence of the HA, and I think may be the most weighty consideration of everything on this blog.
…
The role of the church in the New Testament is vast. They are charged with evangelism, ministry to the poor and needy, missions, church organization, prayer, the list continues. Amongst all of these activities is the challenge to train and raise up leaders to continue the efforts. How is it that Teen Mania decided to take on the task of sort of reverse outsourcing everyone’s leadership training? In doing so, they have removed a core role of the church. This could be an acceptable choice IF Teen Mania saw themselves as or accepted the responsibility of the church. The problem with this proposition is that really becoming the church requires a long term commitment to people despite their situation.
…
February 25, 2010 7:44 PM
Rob Eicher said…
R.A. – just want to say that I misunderstood Heath Stoner this morning – he did not say that anyone edited his blog post on this site. My bad. I mis-spoke and I’m sorry for any bad feelings I stirred up. Please forgive me – it was completely my fault.
Cesna – I also misunderstood your post. I thought you were trying to tell me that an intern was posing as Heath, when I called him on the phone this morning. I thought that was a funny idea…again – sorry. Didn’t mean to come across as coy or judgmental – but can clearly see that I did come across that way. Can you call me “Rob” now, and can we be friends? I’ve never like the “Mr. Eicher” title – always felt like it went against Matt. 23:8-12.
Mom of ex-intern. Sorry about your son and what you guys have gone through. I don’t know your situation, but I can tell it has been tough on the fam. If it brings you any comfort, I can tell you that the 2010 discipline procedures are night and day different from when I was an intern (1993-94) and when I was on staff 98-99.
Ben, I’ll try to find Caleb’s Story, and comment there. I’ve drawn enough attention away from Katie’s story – sorry Katie. If you read this please contact me – Erin and I would love to hear from you.
Shalom
For the record, God really used TM in my life – but I know it isn’t a perfect place, and some people obviously come out of the system damaged.
Thanks again for letting me be a part. Sorry I screwed up a few times – already had to apologize twice – and this is only my first day on the site…that will add humility to my life!
February 25, 2010 8:15 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Rob,
Thanks for clearing up Heath’s alleged comment. It did bother me to be accused falsely, so I appreciate your candor and humility in correcting the situation. 🙂
Glad to have you aboard.
February 25, 2010 8:51 PM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
I shall call you Rob (although part of me still feels like i’m not respecting people by calling them by their first name!) 🙂
I tried numerous times after I left to speak with people at the HA (in leadership) and nobody was interested. And although I’ve forgiven him (which took a while), I do not wish to speak with Heath Stoner again after the way he treated and spoke to myself and my friends during our intern year. I don’t have the capacity to put up with being spoken to like dirt for doing what I have been told to do during my ministry placement.
I’ve always said that I don’t regret what I faced at the HA, or what happened after I left, no matter how horrible the experience was. But I learned a lot from what I went through. The lord really opened my eyes to see what was happening – and not just with Teen Mania, but with other organisations and churches too. Over 3 years on and I still find it tough to trust organisations and churches after what I was put through. I’m really not bitter about it, and I apologise if anything I have said may seem that I am.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. There has got to be change in Teen Mania. And not just a few things, but a complete overhaul! If it doesn’t change and get in line with the Word then it needs to shut down before it causes more damage to believers, because they’re only heaping more judgement upon themselves.
February 25, 2010 9:22 PM
Anonymous said…
Hey guys, I just wanted to vouch on behalf of Rob….I do happen to know him and though yes he may have been part of TM “staff” I assure you that he actually is a man after God’s own heart, and though I had a HORRIBLE experience with the internship myself, I can say that Rob is not someone to feel threatened by, as many others within TMM are….just wanted to throw that out there…because though it’s easy to sort of throw everyone into the same category when it comes to TM leadership, I don’t think that Rob necessarily fits…and has never exhibited any reason to not be trusted, at least in MY experience….
February 25, 2010 9:31 PM
mom of ex-intern said…
I want to clarify that Heath’s attempts to “reconcile” with us have been based on his apologies for not following up with my son after the dismissal. He was doing what was ‘required’ of him (I’m quoting here).
Yes, my son violated a rule. But even more than being dismissed without grace or mercy, it was the way my son was treated by staff and interns alike during the dismissal process that was extremely hurtful. After he confessed his sin, he waited over a month for his appointment before the Honor council. I cannot tell you the agony that we as a family experienced while awaiting his verdict. With the delay in his judgement, we were so hopeful and prayerful that the HA was going to have mercy on him. He was unable to eat, sleep, or concentrate, had lost at least 10 pounds and was a wreck when we picked him up.
Meaningful reconciliation can not happen until there is repentance for the way they treated my son as a pariah. This has not happened.
I’m not a parent who demands the world for their child without consequences. I sent my son to be trained by people I trusted who then ultimately betrayed us with their words and actions. My son went there hopeful and hungry for the Lord – and he came back wounded and devastated.
I think CalebPhil’s comment from his story back in January sums up my feelings and are worth repeating here:
“It was the experience of watching many faithful friends come to the HA with genuine faith and leave in shame and heartache that I was convinced of a problem with the organization.
Their failures are not solely the fault of the organization, but surely there is something corrupt about a community that sheds the broken so easily.”
February 26, 2010 10:42 AM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
Mom – I’m surprised that Heath called you. Usually when people are dismissed for anything other than finances (I have no idea why your son was dismissed) it’s Jose Caano that does what is “required” and call around. How is your son doing now? I pray that the Lord would continue to restore your son, and keep drawing him closer in to that place of intimacy with the Lord. I pray that the Holy Spirit would continue to guide you and your family, and that you would all be completely overwhelmed by His love and grace each day. If your son is ready to speak to others that have been through similar experiences and are going through that healing process still, then he is more than welcome to contact me. RA has my email address if you wanted to pass it on to your son, or if you yourself would like to contact me?
“…surely there is something corrupt about a community that sheds the broken so easily”
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but in how many sermons and books has Ron stated “the Church should be a hospital of healing for the broken hearted”? (not Church building, but as a body of believers – I asked Ron for clarification on what he meant by the Church) – hmm…now, something isn’t adding up…
February 26, 2010 8:34 PM
mom of ex-intern said…
to 007…(I hope your new nickname is OK…)
The only reason Heath called me was because I spoke out on the blog..my son was never contacted by Jose…his dismissal was due to a broken rule..
On the blog back then when I originally posted (10/30/09)..I had written in the sequence of postings that my son received closure..but we realize that is not true–yet–he is still healing from this, but praise God, he is clinging to the Lord…
I will request your email address from RA so we can connect..
February 27, 2010 9:20 AM
Dan Gross said…
Well, I just finished up my second pass of this blog, this time making sure I read all comments (my first time through, I simply ready RA’s posts and some of the comments). This comment in particular is on behalf of Heath Stoner and Dave Hasz.
Now, before anyone gasps, please note (especially you, mom of ex 🙂 that my official position is that I’m sorely hurt by much of what I view as wrongs perpetrated by TM on participants of this blog, and not knowing any of these specific situations on a first-hand basis, I am not in any way discounting your experiences nor am I suggesting that Heath or Dave are incapable of wrongdoing or hurting people. If you’re a reader of this blog, you have the right and responsibility to make your hurts known. I’m very happy that this blog exists (sorry, Heath), and as far as I can tell, it’s a very healthy way to work through these issues. It’s moderated well, and the vast majority of participants are respectful. No trolls or flamers. I wish something like this had existed 10 years ago.
That being said, I know that nobody here, the least of whom being RA or mom of ex, is insinuating that Dave or Heath are bad people inherently, nor that they have evil motivations. So when I say what I’m about to say, please don’t think that I’m in any way suggesting that anyone here has made this claim. I’m more inspired by anon 9:22 above and just want to bring another perspective to the table.
Of Teen Mania’s leadership, Ron Luce, Dave Hasz, and Heath, I have known and been friends with these three men (Heath, Rob and I were interns together. Hi Rob. 🙂 for a long time. Heath, specifically, is someone who I’ve been through a lot with, and at one time we were close friends. Dave and Ron, to be fair, are more like acquaintances and former colleagues, as Ron is, well, Ron, and Dave was after my time. But I will say, knowing these men personally, that your suspicion that they are well-intentioned people is absolutely correct. Heath, specifically, is one of the most altruistic people I’ve ever met. (Sorry, Heath, if you’re reading this.) I do disagree with HA’s methods, of which Heath is an integral part. And I think that he may have a manner of dealing with people that can be…well, let’s just say it. Bad. But I assure everyone reading this that Heath is truly a good person who loves God and sincerely loves the young people with whom he’s entrusted. I’m not saying you can’t criticize him or Dave or Ron, or anyone else at TM. You have the right to do so, and I’m not going to tell you that what you say is false. Just know that even if you have personal conflict with these guys, or if they have otherwise wronged you, in their hearts, they are good. (more…)
March 12, 2010 4:15 PM
Dan Gross said…
(…cont.) There’s a pretty cool phrase that was tossed around in my college days: hurt people hurt people. Meaning that when you’re hurt, you tend to dole out more hurtful things. We all do it. I do it. And Heath and Dave specifically have spent the better part of their adult lives creating this thing we love to hate, The Honor Academy. They’ve committed their professional careers to it and I’m sure a LOT of their personal energies. For better or for worse, this thing is what they’re all about. Whether they admit it or not, their identities are intertwined with the Honor Academy. And when you attack it, which you have every right (and responsibility) to do, they feel you’re attacking them. In some cases, they are being directly confronted here (again, a good thing), and that also feels like an attack to them, I’m certain, even though that’s not the intent.
It hurts.
So when they comment here abrasively or defensively, or maybe they deal with you abrasively after this, please just keep that in consideration and treat them back with love and respect. It’s what Jesus would do. It’s what RA does, from what I’ve observed, and so far, it’s what everyone commenting here as done. I’m happy about that. Let’s make sure we keep that up.
Sorry to have rambled, but in my interactions with this site, I want to be clear that even if I agree that TM and HA have serious flaws that need to be addressed, I’m not backstabbing my friends, who I still love very much despite my disagreements with them.
March 12, 2010 4:15 PM
