I was never in the Honor Academy. Honestly, I don’t think they would ever have let me in. But my experiences with Teen Mania have really colored the way I look at missions today, how I view TM, and the HA.
I went on a GE trip to New Zealand. It was a terrible experience and most of it was because of the interns. I was 21, as old or older than most of the interns in the program. Upon my arrival I was informed that my group was going to be learning a dance. 1. I can’t dance. I really do suck at it. 2. It was 100 degrees out. I’m 100% Norwegian. Me and heat go together like oil and water. At one point it occurred to me that I had drank around 3 gallons of water throughout the day and had not once gone to the bathroom. I was overheated and not learning the dance quickly. I was informed by one of the interns who was teaching the dance that not learning the dance was me being rebellious. Now, I am 21 years old. I quit being a rebellious teenager around fourteen so I was a little miffed. This apparently played a part in me not being chosen to be an MA. It never even occurred to me that this could happen. I was a freakin’ adult. I was definitely unhappy that now I was put on the same level as the fourteen-year-olds in my group. I was taken aside by the PA who said that my bad attitude was a problem. This was the first time I had even met her and we hadn’t even left Texas yet.
The following weeks were awful. I was sick almost the entire time with some terrible flu we were passing around. I was so sick that at night I would start coughing so hard I would throw up. Never once was I taken to the doctor. I was also told that if I prayed hard enough God would heal me. Well, I came home still sick and gave it to my roommate and all my friends so that line of thinking wasn’t right.
There were too many people on our trip and while other groups got to go to schools, churches, retreats, and rallys…my group was dropped off at local malls and told to walk around and talk to strangers about Jesus. Yeah, that worked. I was in NZ and all I saw most of the time was the inside of shopping malls. I lie to people when they ask me what I did in NZ. How do you tell people that you didn’t to anything relevant for anyone? Oh, and I never had to perform that stupid dance they made us learn. Not once.
My MA was an intern and two years younger than me. She actually did a good job of not talking down to me which must have been difficult because everyone else did. When the “adults” were allowed to go off and do things I was informed that I could not come because I was not an MA or any kind of authority figure. Don’t get me started about not being able to go to the bathroom by myself because they were afraid I would “get into trouble”. The people my age wouldn’t give me the time of day. At one point someone thought that my attitude may warrant me being sent home. They wanted to call my parents and talk about my attitude. I said, rather loudly, that I didn’t live with my parents and if they wanted to discuss my behavior then they would do so with me.
That was towards the end. I felt completely ripped off. $6500 wasted. And there was no getting closer to God, no wonderful experience, no friends (I don’t count the kids really). And all I thought was…wow…if that is just a taste of what TM is like, I can only imagine what HA is like.
Now I have a friend going there, and every few days she is sending these pleas on facebook about how she needs money or they will kick her out…and I think…God, they are ripping her off too. She had been kicked out twice. Her parents couldn’t afford to buy a bus ticket. Someone she knew found her wandering around Wal-Mart with all her things and decided to take her in until she could get her money. At that point I wanted to go down and punch someone. They sent her out into the cold because she didn’t have the money. After all the hard work she has done for them. Yet, she is convinced that this is the best thing that has ever happened to her, that this is God testing her or showing his goodness somehow. I read your blog because I hope that one day when my friend comes back to us and starts questioning the HA, I’ll know what to say to her.
53 comments:
Lorraine- unfortunately, this is the furthest thing from an isolated case. I was just like your friend, CONSTANTLY posting fundraising statuses and driving my friends crazy.
I hope she realizes what’s up, and soon.
May 19, 2010 8:36 AM
Candor said…
I’m so sorry you had to experience that. That’s a very familiar scenario for them to refer to anyone who questions them or brings up valid concerns as “rebellious.”
Good for you for sticking up for yourself and telling them they needed to talk to YOU and not you’re PARENTS when you’re an adult. Most people that age involved with them wouldn’t have the balls to say that. I didn’t. I was there for a year.
TMM’s “ministry methods” are more than a little questionable. I’m glad that you were able to figure this out.
Thanks so much for sharing your story. I hope you’re doing well in life and succeeding at all you do.
and P.S. – try to get your friend out of there. She’ll thank you later.
May 19, 2010 9:42 AM
Eric P. said…
Lorraine: Good for you for picking up on the abusive nature of TM’s leadership style, though it’s really too bad it was such an expensive lesson! ($6500 for a mall trip to NZ, really?! Sounds suspiciously inflated to me, based on international choir tours I’ve paid for.)
I’d encourage you if you haven’t already to do some reading on the subject of Spiritual Abuse. http://pureprovender.blogspot.com/ is a great place to start. You’ll see a lot of very obvious similarities in TM to well-documented patterns of religious abuse. This will probably be helpful to your friend as well.
I wish resources like this site and Provender had been available back when my friends were at HA.
May 19, 2010 9:58 AM
Eric P. said…
(And by “sounds suspiciously inflated” I mean they inflated the price, not you, in case that wasn’t clear.)
I checked on Bing and found a round-trip tickets from Chicago to Wellington for $1650-$2530 if you booked today. What exactly was the other $4000 used for, hmm?
May 19, 2010 10:05 AM
Anonymous said…
I saw similar situations to yours when I went on my GE trip to Panama. I defended TM, even when I felt that they were wrong in how they handled almost everything. I’m still not sure why. I had never been a “follower”. I was always very independent. I guess I just wasn’t used to experiencing so many different levels of manipulation all at one time.
AND just to throw this in there. It’s amazing how they get SOOOOO numbers driven in everything. I remember that our group saw like 600 people get “saved”. It’s funny though, no relationships were built. I never directed anyone to get involved with a church family. We spent 3 minutes praying with them and then left them with no direction whatsoever. It was like I was leaving them to fend for themselves. It was all just so wrong.
Anyhow. I read your story and I wish I had been able to see through them from the beginning like you were. It was an expensive mistake for you, but after I left the HA I would have given any amount of money to get that year of my life back:)
Thank you for sharing. It shows that the HA isn’t the only division of TM that is messed up. They need reform in every area of their “ministry”.
May 19, 2010 10:15 AM
Anonymous said…
I can’t believe the leadership felt entitled to call your parents at 21!
After I turned 18, even my highschool (grade 13 in Ontario) could not legally contact my parents about anything (report cards, missed classes etc).
I’m not positive, but I think depending on state laws there may be legal reasons why TM can not go tattling to parents of teens who are over the age of consent. If this is true, it would apply to most interns at the HA.
Does anyone know more about laws around the age of consent, parents and institutions?
I’m sorry you wasted your money on a crappy trip, Lorriane. I made the same mistake.
May 19, 2010 11:36 AM
Stephanie said…
The juggernaught that is TM is truly not fit to designate leadership… They have no clue who people are and love to make sweeping generalizations and lump people together for no reason.
Sorry you wasted all that money.
May 19, 2010 12:30 PM
Anonymous said…
I love Teen Mania and the organization! I for one am not going to take part in creating riffs in the body of Christ. At least they are trying and people aren’t perfect.
I hope this sites editor keeps opposing comments up too. I am sorry for all you have gone through, sorry to say this is not going to heal you.
May 19, 2010 12:41 PM
Shannon Kish said…
I am so sorry that this happened!
The pattern I am noticing is that this is not just an Honor Academy problem. It is not just a problem with the 18-19 y/o CAs, SAs, etc. It is a problem at the CORE of Teen Mania.
We have read SEVERAL stories from just missionaries, those that haven’t had the opportunity to go to the HA and the same themes are present.
May 19, 2010 12:53 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
What is the policy for financially dismissing people who don’t have the money to return home? They just dropped this girl at Walmart? Another intern said he was just dropped at the airport with no ticket to fly home and no money.
How can you even possibly justify treating young people that way???
May 19, 2010 12:57 PM
Shannon Kish said…
Eric,
TM would claim that the other $4000 was used for lodging, food, and travel within the country. I am not sure if this was a 2-week, 1 month or 2 month trip.
I doubt they were in a hotel for the entire length of stay and I doubt the food they ate was McDonald’s or Outback but rather home cooked food that either they cooked or their host church/organization cooked.
So, you got me!
May 19, 2010 1:05 PM
‘Derek’ said…
RA – I can’t remember really, but I know that they had my parents spring for my return ticket(they only got me a bus ticket since I was being dismissed vs a flight home), and then had to find a ride to the bus station. Of course, my entire year was paid in full, but I was not allowed to use that money to return home, nor was it refunded to my parents. I was told I could use it on a future GE trip, as long as it was within a year, then told I couldn’t go on a GE trip. Kinda odd huh???
May 19, 2010 1:18 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
“I hope this sites editor keeps opposing comments up too. I am sorry for all you have gone through, sorry to say this is not going to heal you.”
ROFL
May 19, 2010 1:29 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Fffff submitted before I was done.
The Lord has used this blog to bring me into the healing process to begin with! And He’s continued to use it. Soooo I don’t know where you’re getting your facts. Can you elaborate please?
May 19, 2010 1:30 PM
Eric P. said…
Anon–I guess I have to quote Jeremiah 6:14 again….
Shannon (et al)– My wife paid ~$2400 for a 3-week college choir tour to Singapore a couple of years ago. That covered airfare, room and board, a charter bus, and transporting lots of fancy musical equipment. I did a bit of googling and it appears a typical cost for a short-term missions trip abroad is $1000-3000. Here’s one to NZ for $1800 plus flight (which is ~2k above.)
Unless I’m overlooking any special circumstances, a $6500 ticket is starting to seem not just suspicious but downright incriminating. Follow the money!
May 19, 2010 2:11 PM
Lady E said…
Thank you for sharing your story. I am so sorry to hear about the way you were treated on your mission trip, Lorraine. It seems that anyone that doesn’t fall in line and drink the TM kool-aid is shunned or in some other way treated poorly.
I also agree with RA about how your friend (and I am sure many others) has been treated in regards to financial dismissal, how can that kind of treatment be justified? It doesn’t seem like there is any “financial dismissal policy” that is followed. I can imagine it is embarrassing and a huge letdown to be forced to leave because of financial dismissal and then on top of that to be dumped at Walmart or the airport with no follow-up? Humiliating.
These questions pop into my head after reading this part of the story: 1) I don’t understand why interns are allowed to come to the HA if they don’t have all of their funds in the first place? (seems a little money hungry to me) 2) When are these young people supposed to fund raise once they are there when they are kept so busy? 3) What exactly is the policy or process that happens (as RA asked) when someone is financially dismissed? From the stories I have heard there are many “begging” interns. I have even contributed to one of them in the past. ugh.
It really makes me angry that anyone is treated like this. How dare an organization that claims to love Christ treat the very one’s that serve and make that ministry possible like wandering beggars. Shame on you TM. TM you need to get it together or shut it down. Really, I don’t buy the line “Well, no ministry is perfect and look at the good things they are doing.” Like preaching an anti-gospel? Like deserting young people? Like teaching that quiet times and not walking on the grass is more important than loving your neighbor who God forbid might be a stripper or drink beer? Like taking people’s money and then leaving them when they need you most? Like being so focused on the “ministry machine” that you fail to see the people being hurt?
Makes me understand one of the reasons why people choose not to believe in God. Sure doesn’t sound like Jesus to me.
May 19, 2010 2:32 PM
Anonymous said…
Forcing kids to raise money for “missions” is how TM pays for itself. By their own admissions missions is their “profit center” and forcing kids to raise money for “missions” is how the ministry pays for all the leaderships housing, automobiles, caviar, etc. Don’t take my word for it, ask them!
Anon
May 19, 2010 2:40 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Lady E, the reason that they accept interns without the proper funds is this: “faith”.
I had my fair share of fundraising woes, and when I would call and ask if I could enroll in the next semester, they reassured me that “God had called” me to go for THAT semester, and that I just needed to have faith.
The vibe I got from the MOB was that if somebody tried to enroll for a later date, the driving flame would die out and they wouldn’t feel like going to the HA anymore. I dunno.
May 19, 2010 2:54 PM
layne said…
“What is the policy for financially dismissing people who don’t have the money to return home? They just dropped this girl at Walmart? Another intern said he was just dropped at the airport with no ticket to fly home and no money.”
I’m not sure about the financial dismissal process, but I personally was sent home on a “fundraising trip” (I was broke and hadn’t paid my tuition in a month or so) during my HA year. My parents were broke, I was broke, my friends were broke… but HA told me that I had to leave campus within 48 hours. I purchased a bus ticket and headed from Texas to Florida. It was a very long and scary trip for a 20yr old female to take alone.
I found the whole thing so ironic. I was confronted during the first 5 months (of my internship) on an almost weekly basis regarding my evil independant spirit and inability to “set aside my pride” and allow others to help and protect me. And then they tossed me out on my a** to fend for and protect myself as the moment I was unable to pay them. Hah.
May 19, 2010 3:23 PM
shouldcareless said…
Is there no end to the disturbing behaviors of Teen Mania?
I know that many people bristle at the word “abuse” but this is what it is, people: abuse.
forcing kids to work 16 hrs a day in 100 degree temps on a physically demanding drama (that is almost entirely ineffective as a tool to share jesus with people) is ABUSIVE. deeming them rebellious for no good reason? abusive. forcing them to live in filth, deprive them of sleep, and deprive them of basic medical care? abusive.
lorraine, i am so sorry you had to endure this. thank you for sharing your story. there is no excuse for how you were treated.
May 19, 2010 5:32 PM
CarrieSaum said…
how are these financial practices NOT considered money laundering? seriously. at the very least, they are “dis-honorable”.
oh, and i just started to get all indignant that they would threaten to send you home b/c of a bad attitude…and now i am remembering a girl in my group (I was her MA) who the TLs labeled as having a bad attitude, and I jumped in right along with them. we seriously contemplated sending her home, and threatened her with that unless she straightened up. *ouch*. looking back, she questioned, she was un-personable, and immature…she was also 15. reading this makes me wish i could call and apologize to her for making her trip difficult.
May 19, 2010 5:42 PM
Anonymous said…
Thanks everyone for the comments. For those wondering about the money…I still wonder about it to this day. We stayed at a camp where we didn’t even have hot water, breakfast and dinner were done cafeteria style and we had to clean and cook, our lunches were brown bagged and usually consisted of an apple and PBJ. Even then I started to wonder, after those awful domes, and no air conditioning, crappy vans, and bad food…what was I paying for? The waterfall at GV? You know the one good thing about being dropped off at a mall all day? Food courts. I used a lot of my own money in the food court. I had a lot of Kiwi Burgers.
When I first got back I thought that perhaps I had been rebellious. Maybe it was me. I know now that I did what my parents had taught me…question everything, especially leadership. I have never been a good follower, which is why I am a good manager now, but I learned from a young age to speak up if I ever had problems or questions. The best advice I ever got.
As for my friend. My dad emailed her yesterday to tell her that he won’t send her money, but if she needs a bus or plane ride home…he will do that for her. It made me smile a little.
Lorraine
May 19, 2010 6:52 PM
Anonymous said…
Nunquam, it sounds like they see a sucker and don’t want them to get a chance to change their mind. “Hurry up and commit to this semester”. I wonder if DH gets bonused based on admissions? My daddy always told me that if you feel under pressure to make a decision from someone its usually a bad idea.
Anon
May 19, 2010 7:45 PM
hitchcockhill said…
Anon @12:41 – puhleeze. Why hide behind anonymous? Don’t have the courage to show who you are with your opinion? Coward. Facts are facts – your little opinion means nothing here This group is far from trying to create “riffs” in the body of Christ – they don’t need us – they do it to themselves already.
All of these trips need leaders right? So I’m not sure about the Project Directors – but I doubt they are shelling out any money for their trip – i.e. tickets, hotels, food. I know for a fact that after a person completed one trip as a Team Leader – as an incentive to get them back on other trips if they went on trips totaling one month the next year – it was free of charge. So imagine how much extra money the KIDS must pay to get all their leaders to go on the trips too. I know at one point I wanted to be a Team Leader just so I could get the free trips later on, but thankfully I quit and left before I had the chance to do my first trip. Hallelujah.
Teen Mania is a business. Their product is an experience with God. These trips are great revenue sources. Yet sometimes not so great experiences with God – refund please.
May 19, 2010 7:54 PM
Jacqueline said…
My mission trip was very similar to yours, learn a drama– then don’t do it. Our evangelization efforts were all intellectual and relational, which I preferred and in fact had an incredible time meeting people and discussing their views on God and trying to help them see God as loving and good. It was a very good experience for me.
But what I won’t ever understand is why we spent so much time learning the drama instead of being taught how to evangelize in our particular situation. It seemed like an incredible waste of time unless of course that was suppose to be the “gauntlet” of the mission trips. . .but seriously isn’t there a better way?
Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwiches once sometimes twice a day does not make the tuition cost seem at all reasonable does it?
May 19, 2010 9:23 PM
Shannon Kish said…
Very well said Eric!
May 19, 2010 9:28 PM
squeakycheez07 said…
I hated my mission trip. I just went on the simple Dallas trip just so I could graduate the HA. But, because the place is run by immature teens, I didn’t pay for my entire trip. Haha.
I was put on a fundraising trip when I was an intern. I had no where to go. My RD made a few phone calls, and before I knew it I was at some house with a bunch of strangers. I cried myself to sleep. How did they expect me to Fundraise with no car, no phone, and no access to the Internet? Luckily one of my coremates picked me up from this random house and drove me back to the warehouse, in the back of campus. There i had access to communication devices and my day of being a begger began.
May 19, 2010 10:17 PM
Shannon Kish said…
The internets ate my comment.
I went to New Orleans for a Christmas trip with TM. Our accommodations were on the basketball court of a church. The food we ate was prepared by church staff. We packed our lunches and they were typically PB&J. My trip was $800 in 2001.
We didn’t fly, we drove a bus.
May 19, 2010 10:30 PM
Josh 00-01 ex-intern said…
My trip was to Mexico as an intern. On top of my tuition for being an intern, I had to pay an additional $800+ to take a bus to Jaurez Mexico and live in an orphanage. I will have to say that the food we were served, by the contacts there, was EXCELLENT. Of course, most days our lunches were the GE staple of PBJ. Now I know why I can’t stand peanut butter. Eating it in the back of a school bus with the temp being about 120+ was no fun. The interesting part is that we had a guy from NZ on the trip that LEFT and ENTERED the US without a visa for Mexico. Oops…not to mention that most of us guys were carrying some sort of illegal weaponary on us, and NO we didn’t get stopped by border police because of the fact that a drug dog hit on the car in the next lane!! Thank God since I had some illegal things, and no, drugs weren’t part of it.
May 20, 2010 7:09 AM
stirrin_up_the_hornets_nest said…
Just a bit of insight for you all…..most ministry internships require you to raise your own support and if you fall behind then you can no longer be a part of the program, not saying the way TM does it is right but this is pretty common anywhere, ie: YWAM.
Second, I’ve seen the HA budget for the past 8 years and trust me, the HA loses money based on what they offer the students….if they charged what it was actually worth then you’d have the same amount of complaints on here but just directed at something different.
Third, I was on that NZ trip and there must have been an alternate world because this is not by any means what my team experienced. Also the trip was not anywhere near $6500, did you have expenses that I didn’t? Not sayin I don’t believe you, my trip wasn’t that much though. I do believe that some GE trips seem pretty outrageous as far as cost, I’ll give you that one for sure
May 20, 2010 7:49 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Stirrin – I understand the concept behind raising support – the problem we are pointing out is that when people are dismissed, they are essentially “thrown to the wolves.” How about being considerate enough to make sure they have a place to go and a way to get there??
What does the HA “offer” the students other than a few retreats? Most of which are ON campus? Puh-lease….The interns are the only thing that keeps TM running. You can’t guilt my readers here.
How do you know you were on that particular NZ trip? I never said what year she was there…
May 20, 2010 8:50 AM
Z said…
Josh – why were missionaries on you trip carrying weapons?
May 20, 2010 8:52 AM
layne said…
stirrin_up_the_hornets_nest –
Where does the money used at HA go? How much of it goes directly to the interns? Do YWAM-ers also work 40+ hours a week for the ministry? If HA loses money, why don’t they cut back the amount of interns per semester? How much of a cost difference is there (if they charged enough so that they would not be losing money)?
Were you on the same team as Loraine during the NZ trip?
“There were too many people on our trip and while other groups got to go to schools, churches, retreats, and rallys…my group was dropped off at local malls and told to walk around and talk to strangers about Jesus.”
Were you on one of the teams that got to go to schools, churches, retreats, and rallys? How much did you pay for your trip?
May 20, 2010 9:10 AM
Josh ex-intern 00-01 said…
Z – We purchased them on a free day in Mexico at a local market. Mine was a switchblade, which I ended up losing in one of the grounds crew vehicles right before I was dismissed. Plus, I was on security, so I always carried at least one knife on me in addition to my trusty maglite!
May 20, 2010 9:24 AM
CarrieSaum said…
Stirrin~
I just don’t understand how you can say that the HA actually LOSES money on interns. That is ludicrous! WE PAID TO WORK FOR THEM! That is worse than not getting paid! How is it that they are losing money on us? WE PAID THEM! So does that mean they are losing OUR money? And I don’t care if other ministries do the same thing (YWAM) for internship programs. We’re not talking about them here. If we were, it would be called YWAM Recovering Alumni.
And also, I don’t know of a single other organization that says “you aren’t bringing in enough support, so you must leave immediately at your own expense, using money that you don’t have” and then drops them at Wal-Mart. Teen Mania is abandoning people. And it’s not okay.
GAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
May 20, 2010 10:02 AM
CarrieSaum said…
sorry to sound repetitive in my last comment. it just gets me that people feel a sense of financial sympathy for TM. scores of pre-paid labor, severely over-priced trips, and top-dollar merchandise pedaled at ATF’s…all of this in addition to whatever other kind of funding they receive from straight donations from various sources. and they still can’t balance their budgets. this isn’t about a lack of money or resources…it’s about abusing what they’ve got.
May 20, 2010 11:13 AM
Jeremy said…
$4000 does seem suspicious if you an intern, however if your just a missionary, your also paying for your training period. I dunno..still much. who knows what else they are paying for…have any of you seen any bills associated with GE trips? I would have venture to say no. I’m just saying.
May 20, 2010 11:51 AM
Eric P. said…
@CarrieSaum / Hornets–The differences between YWAM and TMM are rather striking. For one thing, YWAM students don’t do 30+ hours per week of unpaid labor at their own expense, and they actually learn helpful things as opposed to ESOAL.
Actually, now that I think about it, YWAM is probably what TMM sees themselves as, and they might be it without all the abuse and manipulation and legalism and con games. Kind of sad really.
@Jeremy–Some more financial transparency on TM’s part would definitely be very welcome.
May 20, 2010 11:59 AM
Candor said…
Jeremy – Do you have access to any of the bills associated with GE trips? I’m VERY interested in seeing them.
May 20, 2010 12:17 PM
stirrin_up_the_hornets_nest said…
This is rediculous….you guys will go nowhere if just blatantly dismiss what people say as complete falsness. I am not dismissing what is said here and I think I made my comment in a rather polite way. Do you ever think that there COULD be another side to the story?
Listen I had my share of bad experiences at TM myself but to just blatantly share all kinds of bad experiences and just dismiss any type of explanation, comments or questions is just wrong in my opinion. If you don’t agree with me thats fine, but ask questions or be civil like you would ask others to of you.
thanks for rippin my head off, i’ll go find a recovering site for those of us that don’t feel the need to rip people apart for bringing up valid points or correcting each other when wrong information is presented.
May 20, 2010 12:30 PM
Josh ex-intern 00-01 said…
Eric P – I remember during my UPG LTE that a guy from YWAM’s Mercy Ship’s snuck onto campus, and joined our LTE as a Missionary. He had a blast, and thought that YWAM should do something like it as a team building exercise. Of course I would have had to agree with him that it was fun, but I would never recommend it without stricter parameters set up to avoid things like what happened to Niki and other interns. However, he was one of the nicest guys I’d met, and even “converted” to the tribe when certain members had to leave the LTE for various reason.
May 20, 2010 12:31 PM
Josh ex-intern 00-01 said…
Stirrin – I don’t think we are totally dismissing what people say, BUT you have to understand that we aren’t privy to anything that TM/GE/HA does financially because they have NO transperancy with their financial doings. If you can show hard proof of the expenses for EACH GE trip, I think people would believe what is said more when it comes across as pro-TM. If you can’t tell, I’ve been out of the TM/GE/HA circle for quite some time, and so I don’t know what they do, and when I was there, I was stuck on security, so that’s the only aspect I’m knowledgable about. A lot of us are like that. No one can see behind the curtain there, and is the main reason we question the validity of of a comment. By TM’s ACTIONS, we have been breed to be sceptical.
May 20, 2010 12:38 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Stirring – How is asking for evidence to back up your claims “blatantly dismissing what people say as complete falseness” ?
Only one person “shouted” at you. The rest of us are asking questions….A LOT of questions remain unanswered….aren’t you curious to know the answers, too?
May 20, 2010 12:45 PM
stirrin_up_the_hornets_nest said…
theres a difference between being skeptical and pessimistic. If you want to see financial statements, call and ask for them. They legally have to show you.
My problem is that yes I was hurt by TM in so many ways to but it seems this site is only willing to help those that were hurt in a certain type of mold but if you branch away from that certain hurt and question that hurt then you are a failure. It is said that anyone is accepted here if they’ve been hurt but from what I keep reading here, that is not the case and that makes me sick because it is also consistantly said that “TM shuns certain people” but this site does the same thing but you don’t see it because you think your helping people. Its almost like we have to be okay in our hurt and wallow in it but when we start to question that hurt, thats when theres problems.
I’m done with it….
May 20, 2010 12:45 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Stirring – I’m honestly trying to understand you here…help me out. How are we shunning you? By asking questions about your comment? That is the nature of the comments…?
Also, I want to believe what you are saying in this last comment and reconcile with you – but with a name like “stirring up the hornets nest” it sounds like you think we are the hornets and you are here to make trouble…?
May 20, 2010 12:47 PM
stirrin_up_the_hornets_nest said…
hornets are in reference to TM and this site is stirrin up the nest (TM) which is good….I use several names on here (Joe B., will, Anon) doesn’t matter, I’m done. Blessings to you all, Peace!
May 20, 2010 12:51 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Stirring – Well, I’m sad you feel like you are not accepted here. And I’m honestly baffled by your comment at 12:45pm…Yes, your original comment ignited some passionated responses – but if you stick around I’m sure we can work it out!
May 20, 2010 12:54 PM
Anonymous said…
I think it is important to be objective and accurate if we want to present a credible argument for change at TM. If we come off as blindly biased people will discredit our legitimate claims. For those about to read the rest of this comment please know that I definitely want change in TM, but lets think things through.
With that in mind…
So I think the “way back machine” is a great internet tool. At http://www.archive.org/web/web.php you can view just about any web site from any date. I decided to check a few different years of the GE web site to see how much the new Zealand trip was. I found that the average cost over the past 10 years of a 2 month trip to NZ was not $6500 it was actually $4500.
Ok so lets break this down…
If GE paid $1200 for the flight from DFW to Auckland then there would be $3300 left.
Divide $3300 by 60 days and you get $55 a day for food, shelter, and in country transportation. If I went as an individual (not with GE) I could easily use up $55 a day just by eating McDonalds, taking public transportation, and staying in a multi person per room hostel.
But the calculating the overhead is not that simple. You have to also factor in costs such as ministry supplies, sound boxes and drama/VBS materials, fuel surcharges, baggage fees…ect. Also the ministry has to raise money some how to pay the staff that plans and runs the trips as well as funding for marketing materials such as brochures promo dvds. If you look at almost any non-profit a portion of contributions goes to staffing and marketing.
Is there room for improvement in TM financial practices? You bet there is, but I cannot say that they are the next Enron, Goldman Sachs, or Haliburton.
May 20, 2010 1:20 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Anon – Excellent points. I fully agree that every allegation here should be able to stand up to scrutiny.
(That said, I want to point out that most of these financial allegations have been leveled in the comments, not by Lorraine herself. She felt ripped off b/c her experience was so poor and she was treated so badly.)
Maybe breaking down each trip’s cost in this manner would be helpful. Other thoughts?
May 20, 2010 1:25 PM
CarrieSaum said…
Stirrin ~ sorry if you felt shouted at. There are very few things that I get angry about, but the financial situation at TM is one of them.
You are very welcome here. Sorry I didn’t do my part to be welcoming.
May 20, 2010 2:14 PM
Anonymous said…
RA,
I guess I should have been clearer as to who my comment were directed toward. My post was meant to clarify to those making financial accusations that the trip was $4500 and that by breaking down the costs we can see that TM is not making a significant profit.
However, I agree that Lorraine should have felt ripped off because her experience was poor and she was treated badly, regardless of the cost of the trip. Whether someone pays $6500, $4500, or $2 for a trip does not justify the way Lorraine says she was treated.
May 20, 2010 5:32 PM
dan said…
So, I feel it would be unethical to disclose particular details regarding my trips as a Project Director. I also can only speak for the trips which I oversaw (is that even a word?), the last of which was 11 years ago. (suddenly, I feel very old) I did, however, serve as a PD on several trips with another organization as well.
However, I will say that over several trips as a PD, I never saw gross overpricing. I did see a profit margin for TM…however, it was relatively slim and only estimated, as I could only speculate as to the “costs” of the time in GV/Miami.
Of course this is anecdotal, and I would encourage anyone…ESPECIALLY if you’re a donor, intern, or GE missionary…to ask TM directly for an audit of their financials. However, if you want to know my opinion, the costs of many of the trips seem fair. Certainly not cheap, but fair.
May 20, 2010 5:53 PM
Anonymous said…
I remember very specifically having to raise $5500 for TM directly. In fact I nearly did not make get enough money, having the last $500 come in at last minute. However, I also had to buy my own plane ticket to Texas, as well as the extra costs for our free days which I had to pay for myself, and in country fees at the airport, and then I had to raise any spending money I wanted. In the end my money was up near $6500 and I had to raise all of that. My parents couldn’t and didn’t help. When I returned from this horrible trip, I had to go around to my sponsors and give talks at libraries and churches about my wonderful trip. I lied of course.
The real problem as someone said earlier though was that even if all the expenses are accounted for, I was still sick with no doctor, I still had no warm water to shower in, and was threatened with being BV’ed due to a bad attitude that was only me questioning. Admittedly, I was very ill and definitely not in the best of moods for most of the trip, but I can tell you that I have traveled with three other organizations to several countries and never was treated so miserable as I was with TM.
Perhaps my friend is having a great time. Maybe she is one of the elite few who absolutely loves it no matter how much they threaten her. But I doubt it. And I can’t wait for her to come her and realize that being threatened to be kicked out is not God’s faithfulness…it may be a sign. To leave.
Lorraine
May 20, 2010 9:36 PM
