…to our regularly scheduled programming. Whew, is anyone else as exhausted from all this as I am?
A couple of people have pointed out the emotional nature of these discussions. I want to acknowledge that there have been times this week when I’ve commented out of impatience, anger or frustration. I’m not exactly apologizing for it, per se, because I think anger is an appropriate response to abuse. But, if I misunderstood any well-intentioned folks in the comments and responded in frustration, I do apologize for that. Its hard to tell tone of voice and intention in this medium and because I feel like I am constantly falsely accused, I may sometimes be over-sensitive to that. Please bear with me.
Secondly, a few people have mentioned the desire for a discussion forum to talk about a wider variety of topics. The thought of moderating that forum doesn’t exactly ring my bell, but if a forum is something you’d like to have, please speak up in the comments section. And if you are a techie who knows anything about how to execute that for the wonderful price of free, please send me an email.
33 comments:
RA,
We can understand your burden. Please don’t feel that you have to take this all on yourself. If you decide to do a forum, ask for volunteers to help administer and moderate it.
Also, If its not too much trouble, I hope that you soon post the second part of “Amber’s Story”. I think it got lost in all the excitement 🙂
March 20, 2010 10:56 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
1security – thanks, that is a great idea. If we go forward with a forum, I’ll ask for volunteers to moderate.
And yes, Amber’s story part 2 is coming on Monday! Poor Amber…got sidetracked with all this craziness…
March 20, 2010 11:02 AM
Cesna said…
We’ll lock shields with ya, RA. This is a difficult thing you’re trying to do, and you don’t have to burden it alone.
I’m pretty good with computerstuffs, but I don’t have any experience moderating a forum. I might look into it this weekend and see if I can help ya out.
Oh yeah, and I might start a blog called Poopy Head RA for all the pro-HA-butthurters that got hurt by your blog. 🙂
March 20, 2010 11:30 AM
Shiloh said…
Well. I think it’s a great idea. I’m absolutely not computer Savvy in the least, but would definitely be there to comment.
I personally, think it would be a good idea to make a little section where you can just copy and paste all the ‘N.F.T.O.S.’ so you don’t have to answer them. (Let other people answer them. if the blogger doesn’t actually want to read the blog to find the answer, they don’t deserve one) and then you can delete them from the post. :)~
March 20, 2010 12:17 PM
Ben said…
i think we’re at the point of needing a forum, yes. unless you want to post an entry for every topic that comes up in the comments, which i don’t think you do.
March 20, 2010 12:48 PM
Eric P. said…
http://www.phpbb.com/ appears to be what’s used by a couple of places I visit; one example is http://www.thehogshead.org/forum (apologies if anybody disapproves of Harry Potter, but read the books first! I digress). You’d need a web host though and it might cost a few bucks. Moderation is a must given the sort of flames we’ve been attracting lately (I’d like to but can’t).
My concern is it would become a kind of flame attractor for all the HA-Party-Line “oh ur so bitter mov on already” haters. You’d need to enforce some pretty clear community guidelines to prevent that, but it might get to be emotionally wearing. Forums in general are trollbait, and on a topic known to spark controversy– well! Look before you leap, is all.
I also like Shiloh’s idea of writing up some standard responses to all the same old objections you’ve been getting lately– no we’re not bitter, yes speaking up about hurt is healthy, actually Matthew 18 says to expose unrepentant leaders’ sins in public, etc. etc. Maybe a “common objections” label is in order.
March 20, 2010 1:00 PM
Shannon Kish said…
Webhosting can be free- weebly.com or cheap- cheapwebsites.com
March 20, 2010 1:56 PM
Shannon Kish said…
Anyone seen http://www.acquiretheevidence.com/index.html Thoughts?
March 20, 2010 2:08 PM
Liz said…
Shannon, I remember Acquire the Evidence from several years ago. They contacted me because of some writing I’d done about TM on my blog and for an organization that was organizing protests of the first Battlecry events.
I think that the site had potential, but there is a reason Ron Luce & others should be glad that someone like RA has started this blog. The writers of Acquire the Evidence had good things to say, but more of a desire to bring Teen Mania down than help its alumni find healing.
March 20, 2010 2:40 PM
JMillerFam said…
wow, i didn’t check back this blog in a few days…and didn’t realize name-calling was OK. I was simply sharing my thoughts…just like everyone else. The tone was hurtful.
Honestly, there have been a few friends whose stories I’ve read and I’ve been shocked and hurt that they went through that…and am TRULY glad that they are able to have a spot to share it…
As a daughter of a minister, my direct thought is what if this was my Dad being talked about on a blog that hundreds or even thousands might be reading. Just a thought…as I think about the children of the Luce’s or Hasz’s….
I am not opposed AT ALL to vulnerability or healing or even a support group. My ONLY concern was the ‘naming’ of people who were the ‘abusers’…for their protection only. Esp since not every story can be guaranteed as truth or fact by one moderator or by anyone really.
I really do hope and pray that those who were injured are able to heal and still know God is a God who loves, cares and doesn’t expect perfection. I also agree that TM has definite areas to improve in…I have never felt like they had it perfect.
Just sharing openly…hope that its ok to do that here even if I don’t 100% agree with everything in the blog.
March 20, 2010 3:59 PM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
I remember Acquire The Evidence…With Sunsara Taylor? (Or whatever her name is? The one who Luce debated with on Larry King) It’s an interesting site, but yes it’s more for the bringing down of people than for healing. I’d rather not comment on that site! Haha! 🙂
And Cesna, you ALWAYS crack me up! Haha! I love those “Dear Poopy Head RA” comments 😀
March 20, 2010 4:47 PM
Mike Doughney said…
No, no, NOT Sunsara Taylor!
There’s a case of mistaken identity involved in Liz’ last comment, since it’s not clear to me how the idea got out there that my partner Lauren Sabina Kneisly or I (it’s just the two of us) was driven more by a “desire to bring Teen Mania down than help its alumni find healing.” I start on a reply and then step away for a few minutes to enjoy this beautiful afternoon, and next thing you know, as much as I’ve tried to do something different over the years by ignoring and actively disagreeing with Ms. Taylor (in various other places) and not linking to the various articles by her, I get splattered by mis-association. Ouch!
I’m the co-author of the acquiretheevidence.com site, and the two of us who put that together are not part of any other organization that might have been, as you put it, trying “to bring Teen Mania down.” I’ve been following along here on and off for the past few months. I’ve been very deliberately staying out of the discussion here except for one recent anonymous comment, trying to respect the good things that are happening here.
I think if there is any one point to what we were trying to do with that site, it was to help start a discussion of what Teen Mania really is, since there have been plenty of stories and fantasies out there and people running around with their own organizational and propagandistic agendas which aren’t supported by the available facts. I think there are aspects of Teen Mania that are probably more disturbing than all the reporting and propagandizing out there, but it can’t get shortened to a soundbite or a slogan or a segment of a CNN special. Sooner or later, if there’s to be any change, it also has to be explained by those who’ve been inside, since what outsiders can do is very limited for these and other reasons.
About ten years ago, I played some video of an ATF to a published author and counselor in the cult-education field whose name some of you would probably recognize. He told me, back then, to give it a few years and sooner or later alumni would eventually come forward with stories to tell, including stories of various kinds of abuse. I’d heard occasional rumblings over the years – there was even a “Recovering Teen Maniacs” Yahoo group for awhile, must have been eight years ago – but it seems Recovering Alumni here has somehow figured out how to pop the cork.
I’ve been following cults – or, I should more generally say, “high-demand groups” – and related issues online for nearly twenty years now. One of the first web sites on the subject, ex-cult.org, is my work. A friend of mine is a counselor specializing in recovery from abusive groups, and I regularly participate in a group blog that he started that’s focused on a very different group/organization, where a lot of discussion is about the whole subject of how to heal after getting away from an abusive group.
(continued)
March 20, 2010 5:35 PM
Mike Doughney said…
(continuing)
The “Acquire the Evidence” site was set up to do something completely different from that, and now that this blog is here (or maybe even some successor forum), I’d put a link to this blog up on my links page, except for the fact that that association, even something as tenuous as a web link, might make RA’s and everyone else here’s task a bit more difficult. I was about to write and privately ask RA first if he/she wanted a link or for me to comment openly around here before doing either, but if my work is going to be misattributed to a self-described revolutionary Communist here (with her own agenda which has little to do with both all of you and what Teen Mania is, or us), I just had to speak up right away and correct the record.
As for what RA and the rest of you are doing here, I’ve seldom seen a group of people who’ve come out of experiences with an outfit like this be so clear and eloquent in the face of the usual onslaught of defenders questioning your motives – it’s always like that, doesn’t matter what kind of group or organization, the abusers always seem to have a chorus of defenders ready to make discussion of legitimate concerns difficult. Public discussion like this punctures the myth that if you were hurt by experiences with an abusive group like this, it’s just you and it’s your fault. You’e not alone, and it’s okay to openly talk about it and seek help and healing. Don’t stop.
March 20, 2010 5:39 PM
Liz said…
Mike — i didn’t mean to imply that you and Sunsara were together. I was simply contacted by you at the same time. Sunsara is clearly a much more extreme individual. My apologies! I also apologize for implying that you had super negative goal with Acquire the Evidence to “bring TM down.” However, I do think that the two sites have different tones and purposes, though, and I think Ron should be grateful that this is the one that took off, because it’s providing more of a place of discussion rather than simply a resource of negatives concerning TM.
Does that make sense?
I really enjoyed my dialogue with you a few years ago, and I hope you’re still doing well.
March 20, 2010 7:05 PM
Shannon Kish said…
Here is a link to the HA Alumni podcasts if you would like to listen to any of them- http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/honor-academy-alumni-podcast/id217795914
At the bottom is other common podcasts associated with TM.
March 20, 2010 7:37 PM
Mike Doughney said…
Liz – makes sense to me! I was mainly addressing the comment from Ex-Intern Aug 07 following yours that seemed to make that connection. Sorry if that wasn’t clear! Hard to tell what Ron might be thinking right now, though, a bunch of people knowledgeably talking with each other talking about their experiences might freak him out more/be seen as more of a threat than the reporting of outsiders like us.
March 20, 2010 7:53 PM
Watchman Trent said…
There is a forum hosting company named Noeclue. I have been a part of a forum that was based in their system, and greatly enjoyed it.
Here is a link to their facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=56910343481
March 21, 2010 12:54 AM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
Mike – Ahhhh my apologies! I had things a little confused, please forgive me. I understand now, thanks 🙂
March 21, 2010 7:19 AM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
For some reason, my last comment didn’t come up?
Anyway, Mike – I’m sorry, I think I confused your site with another that I’ve been on that has Sunsara Taylor on it! My apologies, please forgive me.
March 21, 2010 7:21 AM
Moriah said…
I like Sunsara Taylor.
A lot.
She is against killing people in the name of war.
She wants people to be treated fairly and equally by those in power.
As a young woman, she has an incredible amount of courage to stand up and defend her point of view to people like Bill O’reilly.
In my intern year, I would have rejected Sunsara Taylor vehemently, with no concept of how to be open and interested in her point of view. If I met her, I would have wanted to convert her at best, or slam her at worst. Teen Mania does not prepare people for true intellectual discussion. It presents teenagers with a fierce, one sided viewpoint that actually works in their detriment. Interns are taught that after the internship, they are to exit like raging bulls–into a world of ignorant sinners, a world of pitiful lost souls who are deceived by satan.
Newsflash: Sunsara Taylor may be opinionated, speak sharply about the issues at hand, and come off as extreme, but she is hardly a pitiful lost soul.
The concept here is that a person can change their core values and perspectives over time, and THAT IS OK!! I am not really interested in convincing anyone that Sunsara Taylor is great, but I am interested in suggesting that one way to begin re-exploring ones identity after something like Teen Mania is to be truly open-minded.
Initially, it is hard to do this after an experience like the internship. It can feel lonely and isolating, both socially and emotionally. It is humbling in a way that I had never experienced as a Christian because it required that I be open to the idea that maybe I was wrong for being so adamant and sure of my world-view. It can also be hard on the friends who are still avid supporters of Teen Mania, as they feel you are somehow abandoning this shared intensive experience. I remember making a dear friend of mine (a fellow intern) cry on her wedding rehearsal day, because on the car ride over, I asked everyone in the car how they knew the Bible was true. I felt bad for making her cry, but at the same time, I also felt bad for going out into the world acting like I was some kind of elite spiritual warrior.
love always,
Moriah
March 21, 2010 9:54 AM
Liz said…
Moriah, I had a nice talk with Sunsara over the phone back in 2006. She was very pleasant. Definitely an extreme in her politics, but really easy to talk to and absolutely dedicated to what she believes. I agree that TM (and other fundamentalist groups) don’t prepare their members for conversing with people who believe differently than them, unless the goal is to convert them.
March 21, 2010 11:29 AM
Anonymous said…
Does anybody know a translation of the Bible that states mania as a gift/fruit of the spirit? Looking into mania is a bit scary, one of the prerequisites is grandiose thinking and another is somebody who doesn’t believe the laws of nature applies to them. Hrm. What I think is happening here is that the people who actually thrive in teen mania are manic. The rest of us couldn’t ACQUIRE the disorder ourselves and that explains all our problems. However one could also wonder if lithium in massive doses could be the answer to many of these problems?
“Saving the world for Christ” or “Saving the world with Christ”
There is a fundamental difference.
Our “strategic” efforts are not necessarily God’s idea! *gasp*
The religion which is holy and free from evil in the eyes of our God and Father is this: to take care of children who have no fathers and of widows who are in trouble, and to keep oneself untouched by the world. -James 1:27
For all the orphans that came to Teen Mania to draw close to God the Father, I am sorry you were introduced to mania instead of mercy.
March 21, 2010 11:41 AM
S said…
Anon @ 11:41am
To be fair, Ron seemed to choose the term “mania” not based on it’s strict psychological disorder meaning, but more based on it’s less formal use as “craziness” or “excitement”, though you make interesting points regardless.
March 21, 2010 1:32 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
S and Anon – I have no idea why the term “mania” was used – but its interesting to note that Ron has 2 psychology degrees, so he is not unaware of its formal meaning.
March 21, 2010 1:33 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
I actually did a post on this a while back…some thought I was reaching…Perhaps, but its interesting to think about.
http://teenmaniahonoracademy.blogspot.com/2009/07/teen-mania-freudian-slip.html
March 21, 2010 1:35 PM
Anonymous said…
Okay, I am an alumnus who had a very positive experience at HA but has a ton of sympathy for those who didn’t. I agree with you all that things in the program need to be changed for the mental, emotional, and spiritual welfare of all participants in the program. And I have talked to a number of friends in this same position. But just as you don’t want those who had good experiences to diss you or assume they know what your experience was, please don’t lump together everyone who had a positive experience. For those of us supporting you and championing your cause to other alumni, it is very disheartening to continue to hear remarks that suggest people who had good experiences did so because they are blinded, spiritual abusers, or manic. Every person’s experience at HA was different. There are not just two sides, black and white, good or bad. I understand you are recovering from deep hurts, but please don’t lash out at those of us who are listening and supporting you here. You remember how it felt to be judged at the internship, please don’t alienate many who would support you by suggesting that anyone who had a good experience is a bad person.
March 21, 2010 1:35 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Hi Anon – Thanks for bringing that up. I do agree that there are people who have come out of the HA without turning into judgmental and graceless individuals. However, in my personal experience, it is incredibly rare. Like, endangered species rare. Again, that is just my personal experience.
I think you’ll find that folks like you are welcome to dialogue here – in the past couple of weeks both Josh and Dan Gross have been excellent examples of this. Both had good HA experiences but both comment in ways that are helpful and infused with grace and understanding, even though they might disagree with some things.
If I seem to be judging you by lumping you together with everyone else, I apologize. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. But that is what they are – exceptions. Personally, I am always extremely curious to find out how and why people like you exist. So, please do share. If your comments are filled with grace and understanding, you likely won’t be judged here.
March 21, 2010 2:45 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
And as a follow-up, let me explain why I think people like you are rare….I’ve been around long enough to see pro-TM supporters generally fall into 2 camps:
1) For a while alumni think TM is awesome, but the older they get, the more they realize the damage that was done. Heck, I am in this group. I’d go so far as to say that at one time, probably every single commenter here would have been vehemently against this blog. Including me! And while we were being judgmental jerks, we would have said how much we grew and how many great things TM taught us.
2) Other pro-TM people still think their experience was great even though they were lied to (and they know it), even though they got injured, even though there is an undercurrent of a deep feeling of worthlessness in their life. But they can’t recognize these things as bad because they feel like a part of their Christianity. To give them up would be to somehow give God up. These people sing the praises of TM all day long – but their co-workers and families will tell you how difficult they are to live with b/c of their relentless perfectionism and inability to deal with the real world.
So, as you can see, it takes a lot more than saying “hey I think TM is great” for me, and others, to trust that you are actually healthy. Again, refer to Josh and Dan Gross for excellent examples of commenting here.
March 21, 2010 2:50 PM
S said…
I was just referring to the talk that Ron gives at every Gauntlet when he tells the history of TM. He gave the impression that we has just trying to think up a name that would get people excited and asking questions about this crazy group of teens — maniacs, rather than manics.
Obviously, I don’t think Ron chose the term “mania” in order to present TM as a collective of people with psychological problems.
I can see a connection between TM’s preaching and stirring up a sort of mania in their listeners, but I don’t think it was a “Freudian slip” necessarily.
March 21, 2010 3:36 PM
gc1998 said…
sorry…but every time i hear the argument that atf isn’t about emotion or some mountaintop experience, i want to say, “you DO realize you set off PYROTECHNICS, right?”
to deny the fact that certain types of events are…in their very essence…DESIGNED to be mountaintop experiences is just kinda…dumb.
(sorry, the comment about “stirring up mania” in their followers reminded me of that.)
March 21, 2010 7:07 PM
Becky said…
For the most part my time at HA was fine. But I’m the type of person who sits in the corner of the room and hopes no one notices me. I don’t draw attention to myself. So I was lucky enough to not have anything bad happen to me.
BUT I totally agree with everything being said on this blog. It’s been 6 years since I was an intern and in August of this year is when My Life turned upside down. My husband and I were kicked out of our church for questioning the pastor, (he was authoritarian, preached Knee Jerk sermons about you, and twisted God’s Word.) After that we found a new church and found the true God. Not the god of works righteousness. We were both raised in the church but soon found out that we had to unlearn a lot of what we were raised. While that was happening I started to question what was being taught at HA.
I had gotten the email from Ron talking about their partnering up with ihop and was worried! I was tempted to even email Dave and Ron about this but like I said before. I like to stay unnoticed.
But then I got the email from Ron about some “wounded alumni” emailing everyone talking bad about the ministry. To be honest I felt left out because I hadn’t gotten the email. I really wanted to know what was being said because I had a hunch it was the same issues I was finding with them. Then I was blessed to get the email from RA.
-RA I want to thank you for stepping up where I did not. It makes me sad that I am such a coward. But very thankful that you did. I am behind you and support what you are trying to do.
Since I was a coward about emailing Dave and Ron myself I am now spreading your email and you’r blog post to everyone I still talk to from HA. Hoping that God will open their eyes to the truth.
I am praying for you and everyone who has been hurt by HA. And I hope that they will have to own up and face the consequences of what they have done over the years. I also hope that they will repent.
Bless you!
March 22, 2010 9:26 PM
Joel Callaway said…
Hey RA,
I realize that this is an emotionally-charged operation. And perhaps the absence of nonverbal cues adds to that. I just wanted to make it known that I really appreciate the discourse that you have begun… and in fact make possible. Sure people get pissed off, but at least it’s in the open. I think this is a healthy option to just staying silent and allowing wounds to fester in the dark. Perhaps this is a bit like pouring peroxide on a wound. There’s a definite reaction when the compound hits an open sore, but in the end it helps the healing process.
That’s all for now. Chin up.
Joel Callaway
HA Alumnus
’98-’00
March 23, 2010 5:18 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Thanks, Joel!
March 23, 2010 9:46 PM