Here is an excerpt from the Ethics & Leadership class Dave Hasz taught during the campus preview weekend. (Video has since been taken down)
@24:10 – If you are in leadership, you need to recognize who gave you the authority to be in leadership. And who is that? God. And what could he do? (Unintelligible) If he wanted to, he could turn you into a frog right now. I don’t think he will. I don’t see a lot of precedent for it, but he could. He turned King Nebuchadnezzar into a cow. He went out and ate the grass and wandered around the wilderness for seven years, just like that he did. One day he was on top of his palace and he said, “Look at all the authority I have, look what I have done and by evening he was out grazing. It should cause you a little bit of concern.
I would like to think that if any pastor got up and said this on a Sunday morning they would be laughed off the stage. This is just so bizarre, I hardly know where to start.
The Invisible God who became visible in Jesus Christ, who was born as a tiny, helpless baby in a feed trough, who fed the crowds with a few fish and bread, who looked on the masses with compassion, who took our place on Calvary – is that the God who is going to turn me into a frog? I don’t see anything at all in the New Testament to justify this kind of fear.
It’s easy to look at this absurd argument and laugh it off. But underneath, its actually very dangerous. David Hasz wants you to be afraid of God.
Do you really think Jesus came here, to live and die for us so that we would be afraid of Him? Fear is Old Covenant. That way of relating to God didn’t work. That is why Jesus came! We have a new covenant now.
Hebrews 12: 18- 22
You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
This verse is saying we are not coming to a scary God ready to strike us down if we make a wrong move. No! We are coming to mercy, to grace, to joy and love! So why isn’t Dave teaching that?
10 comments:
RA, I’ve been mulling over this post and video for a while and trying to form words as to what Hasz is actually teaching here…He’s talking about authority here and I think he’s trying to get the interns to listen to/be under his authority because he is under God’s authority…
However, the God turning King N into a cow because He-(God) could do it and showed His authority over King N–and then said ‘this should cause you a little concern’…ok….??? Then he further goes on to talk about his authority as HA director and the importance of submitting to it–as he submits to Luce’s authority–and ultimately Gods…hmmmm
So, yes, I see your point of Hasz teaching them to fear God, but to go further–since they are submitting to his authority (Hasz)–don’t you see how they can be afraid to question anything taught there–and therefore fall into step without question? He doesn’t turn them into cows, but tries to turn them into mini-me’s–and very confused mini-me’s when they leave TM and try to function in the real world…
Praise God that I have learned this year (outside TM) that God is our Abba Father who loves us and is not waiting to squash us like bugs (or eat them for that matter)…
January 22, 2010 12:55 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
katydid – definitely! there are SO many issues with this video…and believe me, I will be talking about the authority issue he presents here. because it “sounds” legit but its actually twisting Scripture to give him control that does not belong to him.
January 22, 2010 1:01 PM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
You know that verse that he quotes (a lot!) that says “Submit to authority…” (Romans 13:1-7, Hebrews 13:17, Titus 3:1). Well in the original text, it’s actually referring to governing authorities, not “church authority”.
Acts 5:29 “But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.” ” is my response.
January 22, 2010 2:33 PM
h. said…
that’s just one of a multitude of verses that got quoted out of context at TM [and ultimately…we ended up living our lives based on those out-of-context interpretations]. the verses of course ended up supporting whatever stance TM had taken, and used for methods of behavior modification–turning us into “mini-me’s”, as katydid so aptly put it.
i.e. 1 Thess. 5:22 “abstain from all appearance of evil”. how often did we hear this quoted at us? how often did we make legalistic decisions based on living a life of “integrity” and “avoiding the appearance of evil”? [i know i did, at least]
when in truth, this verse in context is the end of a PARAGRAPH in which Paul is talking to the Thessalonian church regarding charismatic practices within the community. what it’s REALLY getting at is to not just blindly believe whatever we’re told, but to test “prophecies”; and those that are tested and found not to be of the Spirit are to be avoided. so in essence…to “avoid the appearance of evil” means that a lot of us probably should have left TM LONG before we did. ironic?
January 22, 2010 3:03 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Fewer comments than normal for this post…do you think I am off-base here?
January 22, 2010 5:37 PM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
RA – I’m not sure. Personally, (and I do disagree with what Hasz said) i just think that Dave was being sarcastic. I think he did mean it as a joke. But like we’ve said in our other comments, Dave doesn’t mix up his words, and most interns will take what he says as gospel. And it does cause people to fear God.
I mean, we’re supposed to fear the Lord, but it’s not a “scared” fear. It’s a fear that shows that we are reverent before the Lord. He is HOLY.
Luke 1:50 “His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.”
Luke 12:4-5 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell.”
2 Corinthians 5:11 “Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
I know what you’re saying RA, and I agree with you completely. But just wanted to clarify the difference between being scared of God, and fearing Him! 🙂
January 22, 2010 6:16 PM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
Oh side note – read the whole paragraphs if you’re looking up the scriptures for context 🙂 If I’ve misused them please correct me.
January 22, 2010 6:19 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Even if he did mean it as a joke (which is unclear, at best) I don’t think its a stretch to say that he continually instills fear of God in the interns – the scary kind, not the good kind.
And even if this is sarcasm, why is he even using this illustration (Nebuchadnezzar) as indicative of the way God deals with believers? Its not. Its how God dealt with a pagan King in the OT.
It just seems to me that he often goes to the Old Testament for his examples and illustrations, without looking at them through the lens of the New Testament.
And, he OFTEN says these types of things in a joking manner – think it of it like Mary Poppins – a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. He says it jokingly or with wit, but he is dead serious.
End ramble.
January 22, 2010 6:38 PM
Ben said…
i think it’s worth noting, since ex-intern aug 07 brought it up, that hebrews 13:17 IS referring to “those who spoke to you the word of God…for they are keeping watch over your souls”.
RA, i actually don’t think this is nearly as off base as many other things dave has taught. though, other things that this is subsequently used to support ARE, so i don’t think it’s wrong to see this as faulty in that it’s a piece of the bigger puzzle. i remember when he taught this in my class, and i didn’t get the idea that, from this particular thing, anyone thought that God was going to turn them into a frog or cow-man. the point is, he COULD, and a God that powerful is worthy to be feared, which is true.
the missing piece is that, because Jesus is righteous for us, God will never be angry at us, for anything, ever. because God punished Jesus for our sin, God will never punish us. NEVER. so… while there may be ’cause for concern’ to those not connected to Christ by faith, there is none for us who belong to him.
if God gives us cause for joy, rather than concern, then the same should be expected form our leaders.
January 22, 2010 7:11 PM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
Ben – You’re right. I re-read Hebrews 13:17 and I mis-used it. I did exactly what Teen Mania does – only used half of the verse, instead of using the whole verse and paragraph for context. And for that I repent and ask your forgiveness.
RA – I completely agree with you. I wasn’t trying to defend Hasz at all – I mean, after all he was trying to instill fear into the interns, and he used sarcasm to do it.
I don’t remember Hasz using that analogy for my intern year? Unless I was just not listening for this sermon! haha!
January 23, 2010 3:07 PM