As stated yesterday, the Bible does not provide a model for how to find a spouse. However, this does not stop Ron Luce and Teen Mania from putting words in God’s mouth and insisting that they teach a truly Biblical way of “courtship.” In today’s post, I’ll summarize two of Ron’s main points regarding courtship.
1) You must be friends first before starting a romantic relationship.
From Developing a Godly Romance:
(podcast has since been taken down)
@21:00 Unless you have been great friends with somebody for at least 6 months, there is no way they are ever going to be qualified. They could never be qualified (to be romantic with you). You don’t know this person! So you are allowing your heart to start to get entangled with somebody that you don’t really know. That is how things get upside down.
Ron goes on to preach that if your first year of marriage is hard, its because you weren’t good friends first. (@25:30)
There is nothing Scriptural about this concept. In some cases, it may be a wise course of action but NO WHERE is this mandated as THE Biblical way to pursue romance, even though that is EXACTLY what Ron suggests.
Many, many people did not start with 6 months of friendship before dating their spouse. I met my husband on eharmony and after our 3rd date, we were officially a couple. We’ve been married 6 wonderful years. Take that, Ron!
2) You must not make “emotional decisions” or “give your heart away” or “fall in love.” You must be an “emotional virgin” and not just a physical virgin.
Where is the Scripture for this? Ron likes to quote Proverbs about “guarding your heart” but the context in Proverbs 4 has nothing to do with dating, romance or marriage!
Ron is currently teaching the interns that if you date a lot of people before getting married….
This blog post at Darcy’s Heart-Stirrings insightfully critiques this idea. (If this is an area you struggle with, I highly suggest reading the whole thing.)
It was Josh Harris in I Kissed Dating Goodbye and the Ludy’s in several of their books that popularized the idea that everytime you fall in love or get “emotionally attached” to someone, you give away a piece of your heart. The more pieces you give away, the less of your heart you have to give to your spouse someday. He even went so far as to say that each of those former flames actually have some sort of hold on you. This has got to be the most bogus and the most damaging teaching of this entire movement. Love doesn’t work that way. The more you give, the more you have. My 3rd child doesn’t have less of my heart just because I’ve loved two other children before him. And, really, I haven’t given them “pieces” of my heart. I’ve given them each all of my heart. The miracle of love is that it multiplies by being given.
Each person I love has “a piece of my heart”…my best friend, my sisters, my husband, my parents, my kids. It is ridiculous to suggest that there is not enough of my heart to go around.
There is a lot more to be said about Ron’s fear of making “emotional decisions.” I’ll tackle that tomorrow.
32 comments:
This is the first time I’ve posted and it’s in regards to “By the time you get married what do you have left”. I thought this was relevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zR3h2UsR4
The stupid thing (well, one of them), is that this notion of “courtship” is so artificial. As a youngster, I was always confused as to how courtship was different from going out with someone.
Also, aren’t you essentially *prevented* from being friends with a member of the opposite gender in the HA/Teen Mania model? How does that track, Luce?
I heard some of these when I was on staff at TM but I definitely did not teach this to my children- I cant possibly fathom how entering every relationship on that serious level is good for a young person. I have encouraged my kids to Guard their hearts and have talked with them very openly about virginity, sanctity of marriage, STDs etc- but I have encouraged them to get to know a lot of people- dating, friendship etc because they will never know what they really want in life, in a spouse without some experience getting to know people.
One daughter dated a young man who (while not TM) had been incolved in other ministries and bought into the whole courtship thing- he almost instantly was in love and talking long term with her- which then became controlling and manipulating her all in the name of God. Fortunately she saw the truth fairly early on and got out of the relationship and is now enjoying a more healthy relationship.
There is a difference between a casual relationship and casual sex- but I think a lot of Christians who buy into the Kiss Dating Goodbye model- dont understand or practice a casual relationship that is non-intimate.
Ron has been teaching this junk for years and as Anan-staffer pointed out, it can lead to control and manipulation. As a young person its hard to argue when someone is telling you ‘this relationship is ‘God’s plan’. Dating several different people can be very healthy.
Ron’s whole ‘dating is bad’ culture prevents people from learning who to be around the opposite sex and cultivate friendships. *sigh
I remember after one particular women’s meeting, going back to my room and praying to be “spiritually divorced” from those teenaged boys I had already “given pieces of my heart to” I had never before considered them still having some kind of hold on me or preventing me from a future relationship with a spouse but after that teaching I was convinced that I was broken and unwhole unless god would magically grant me these spiritual divorces. Now I know who really had a hold on me and was holding me back from healthy relationships… Teen Mania.
Interested idea, as divorce is really more of a cultural thing. In a Godly marriage, the two are one, not to be broken, but united in all things, and given to each other. Relationships are not made to be broken (while they obviously are, this is more a result of sin, and not of the original design)
*Interesting
Gorian, consider… Belief that in marriage two are one, is also cultural.
Gorian – good point but also consider TM feels that ALL dating relationships should lead to marriage.
Ex. you and I meet, go on a few dates, maybe even date for a few months. Then we decide we are not meant for each other.
In TM’s ‘mind’ we are now used, ‘tainted’, when the next relationship comes around we should feel shameful that we are not ‘pure’. We should ignore each other.
The reality is we just are not compatible for a long-term relationship with each other, theres no need for shame or self loathing. We probable can remain FB friends and say hi when we bump in to each other…
@enlightenmentisntsoscary Sure, but in a cultural marriage, it is just the two. Ideally, in a Godly marriage, you are composed of three people. You, your spouse, and God. This also is in God’s image, for God exists in a eternal relationship (E.G. Trinity).
@phoenix agreed 🙂 A person should be able to have relationships, friendships, acquaintanceships, exclusive (I.E. Dating) relationships, without it compromising who we are, as it is what we were created for, to live in relationship with others.
Gorian and Enlightenment – We’ll have plenty of time to talk about marriage next week. 🙂
@Gorian
This too, is a cultural belief. For example. You believe that God is a separate being that can be invited into a marriage or not.(correct me if I’m wrong)
Which is different from a belief that maybe the marriage only consists of two people but together the two of them rely on their idea of god for guidance? (just an example)
Even different is that I believe that god is already in everybody and everything. Drawing from the inner strength of the people in the relationship is sufficient. My (potential) marriage would be no less ideal than any other because I don’t believe there are 3 persons in my marriage….
Except for in a cultural context.
To bring this back on topic, As far as I’m concerned, each of the relationships I have been in has certainly added to my development as a person whether it be a positive or negavtive addition. The ones I have had since adopting a more healthy view of casual relationships (post divorce no less) have helped shaped me into the person I am so proud of being today. Healthy, whole, compassionate, and understanding of many different people and personalities with a capacity for love like I have never experienced. In a practical sense I know what kind of bullsh*t I am and am not willing to put up with! (and EVERYBODY has bullsh*t!)
*IF* I end up in a long term committed relationship, I have something great to offer that person in a partner *because of* the healthy relationships I have had prior to meeting them.
In addition, the closeness and intimacy that come in a romantic relationship have allowed for those people actually having an impact on my life in a way a bunch of arms length acqauintances could never have.
So, be careful who you get close to? Absolutely! Avoid relationships like the plague other than to pursue marriage? Terrible teaching!
*ahem* ok, RA 😀
write on, this is good stuff!
So glad you’re addressing this issue RA – I was so afraid to be friends with guys for about six years after graduating from the HA! Then, once I decided that the TM stuff was BS, I ended up in a verbally/emotionally abusive relationship b/c I was so confused and insecure about what my role should be in dating. Thankfully, I was introduced to my now husband who is wonderful, but we didn’t follow the RL model in our relationship either. We met, had a long distance relationship for 3 months, moved to the same city and were “dated” for 6 months, got engaged and got married after being together for just barely a full year. We’ve been married for 3 years now and have a beautiful little girl…I know this isn’t how it works for everyone, but I wonder how RL would explain relationships like mine and RA’s and the many other people who didn’t follow his advice?
My first year of marriage was hard… and D and I were great friends for two years before we even started dating. I admit that I think it can help… but it’s not a magical formula for marital bliss.
Every relationship I have ever been in has had an impact on the person I am today. Some of them have been possitive and some, negative. (though even the negative experiences have taught me A LOT!) But, I am by no means less capable of giving of myself to another person because I have given of myself to people in the past.
Since adopting a healthy view of relationships (post divorce no less) I have had some great relationships that have been super fun, allowed me to try new things, experience other cultures, added to my development as an individual, and helped me decide what kinds of bullsh*t I would and would not be willing to put up with in a long term relationship. (And EVERYBODY has bullsh*t in one form or another)
The closeness and intimacy (notice i’m not saying sex, *necessarrily*) involved in a romantic relationship has allowed these people to have an impact on my life in a way that wouldn’t have been possible with a bunch of kept at arm’s length, acquaintences. Not to mention the guilt and shame and fear associated with this “never date until you’re ready to marry” teaching.
Be mindful of who you get close to? Yes!
Avoid the opposite sex like the plague unless your intention is marriage? TERRIBLE teaching!
Wouldn’t not permitting dating / friendship with a man give hasz luce etc extra power over a woman?
Mouse
Mouse – wow.
@the post- This is the first time I’m hearing any Christians say something negative about the I kissed dating good-bye ideology. So that’s a big gulp to swallow.
I love you guys. 🙂
The problem with this teaching teaches us to fear heartbreak, when Jesus embraced it.
Real love is always a risk, no matter what God may “ordain.”
How is love unconditional if it only loves when it thinks it knows everything is going to work out in the end?
@Brooke Jesus died of a broken heart
Thank you for posting this, Gorian. I am glad you pointed out some ways that the teachings made us “feel bad” for how we enter/leave relationships, and I assume you are being more philosophical than attacking Luce, since this is a model that a lot of Christian groups have adopted and taught youth, even though it is extreme.
On the issue of physical affection I think is where the teaching confused me. It inspired me to have strict boundaries, and so when I did feel it right to have some levels of physical affection it made me feel like I “fell,” sinned even, even if I wasn’t necessarily. I have dealt with a lot of guilt about this because of the strict courtship model, and wished I’d known I didn’t need to be so extreme to be holy.
I love the marriage talk on here. As I’ve said before, I’ve had two separate pastors who have now been married for at least 15 years who met, dated, and were married within six months. God works in mysterious ways. I think the I Kissed Dating Goodbye books were good for me to read in high school to get away from being quite so boy crazy (I had low self-esteem), but I don’t think it should be taught to twenty-somethings as the way to approach relationships with the opposite sex.
After the Honor Academy, I got into a very serious relationship with an older man. I was sure it was God’s plan for me… because I had waited, and he was the first man I’d ever really fell in love with. He had to be the one, right?
When the relationship fell apart, I was devastated. I was damaged goods, etc… I moved away and started school again, and met my husband. I didn’t have “less” love to give him because I’d loved someone before him. We were honest with each other about our pasts, and accepted each other as we were. And guess what? We were only friends for a month or two before we started dating! 8 months later he proposed, and a little over a year after we met we were married. We’ve been married for almost two years now, and our first year was bliss.
As RA has said before, relationships can’t be conformed into formulas, especially romantic ones!
@Shiloh: I’m there with you. That’s been a struggle for me for awhile, and still is as I’m reading this post. I embraced the “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” ideology in high school, as did most other people I know… and many of those who didn’t were looked down on by those of us who did. And it did work well for me in high school, because I do think that I was too young for a relationship and I needed to focus on other things. However, almost right after I had embraced it, I started to like a boy from my church who was a good friend of mine (and whom I am now dating).
I felt AWFUL. I struggled with those feelings for forever (about 3 years, give or take), felt that they were wrong, I shouldn’t be thinking of him that way, tried to get over him, and even prayed at times for God to take those feelings away, I’m sure. And when we finally actually started heading toward a relationship, even though we felt it was the right thing, I wondered if I had compromised by standards that I had held for so long. It’s been a very long battle, and still is at times.
With that being said, I do think IKDG and similar books/writers have a lot of good principles to help you form and navigate Godly relationships, but I’m just starting to leave the idea that there’s a perfect formula that everyone needs to follow.
@Shiloh– Read Darcy’s Post (linked in the article), along with its follow-ups, for a really good critique of the IKDG philosophy– and notice the well over 100 comments agreeing! The first one is mine:
“It occurs to me that this whole ‘courtship’ thing really does have a lot in common with Pharisaism–‘God gave us a rule (save sexual intimacy for marriage), so let’s build a colossal fence of man-made rules around it (don’t hold hands)!'”
The best comments are summed up in Darcy’s next post. Suffice it to say, there are some very serious holes in the IKDG approach.
I think it’s Important to note that even Harris has stated multiple times starting in 05 to the present that the rules made around the ideas he made popular has made it impossible for Christians to really relate on a loving level with each other and the legalism surrounding his ideas he calls VERY UNFORTUNATE and HEARTBREAKING.
He goes on to say going out for coffee alone with someone you think you like is FINE and people should stop being so uptight.
(sometimes last minute searches are useful!
I’m a little confused about some of the views I’m seeing on here, to be honest. I absolutely do think that we can give our hearts away in romantic relationships and when they end, it can be very, very painful and damaging. Unlike the TM ideology, i would emphasize more than anything that God can redeem that and he can restore our hearts and heal our pain, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there and we can just keep giving out hearts away because our capacity to love can never run out and will just grow and grow the more we give it away…does this make sense?
Lisa Marie – I hear what you are saying. While I don’t believe there are rules or formulas to follow about how to date, we still need to use wisdom. That said, there is no way to guarantee that we will avoid heartbreak. Its just not possible. 🙁
Lisa Marie – I would agree with you that heartbreak is still devastating and painful, but like you said, God can redeem us and make us whole again. Ron is teaching that the more you give your heart away, the less you have to give to the next person. That is very damaging, and makes the breakup process even worse because now you blew your only chance to “do it right.”
It took me a long, long time to recover from my first serious relationship after the Honor Academy. I was devastated. But when I did get over it, and met my husband, I didn’t feel I had less to give him because of the love I’d given the first man. God redeemed me and made me whole, and my husband got all of my heart, not just what was “left over” from the first guy. Does that help at all?
RA & Renae-
I totally agree with your comments here. It was really the quote from Darcy’s blog that threw me off a little- so, I decided to go over there and ask her for some clarity on what she meant with the idea that love grows the more we give it and our hearts can never run out of love.
But I definitely agree that the TM idea on this is totally messed up and only leads to that idea that you mentioned, Renae- that if we break up we’ve blown our only chance to “do it right” and now we’re “damaged goods.”
i thought i had to be friends with a girl first and when she wanted to move forward and i wasnt ready, she left me without so much as a word.
I actually kind of agree with the statement that a piece of your heart is left behind with every former flame you’ve ever loved. I don’t think I will ever be able to get those pieces back… but I’m not sure I’d ever want them back. They belong to those people because I gave it to them out of love. I will always hold a special place for each of them in my heart. I think it is important to guard our heart, but not biblical that we retrain from giving love a chance when the opportunity comes knocking. Otherwise, people would never get married if they never gave a piece of their heart to someone who might be worthy of it.
Actually for me the first year of marriage was the easiest. It went downhill from there. I agree w/ you too that there’s really no time frame. I met my husband at a coffee shop and by the 3rd date we were also already a couple. We got engaged 6 months later and married a month after that. Everyone thought it was bizarre and so many people thought I was pregnant. Anyway, I wasn’t and now 9 years later, we’re still happily married.
I was a huge TM follower, went to ATM, went to mission trips(team leader). I was indoctrinated w/ that I Kissed Dating Goodbye doctrine as well and I felt bad, thinking I was damaged goods. I thought well I had a few boyfriends so I guess there must not be much of my heart left for my future husband! It took me a while to get out of that mentality. I think it’s healthy to date, provided you have boundaries. While the IKDG sounds fine and dandy, it just seems so idealistic to me. I can’t believe I was so gungho about that.