The Great & Powerful Oz: Behind the Curtain of Teen Mania Ministries
53 comments:
Oh my god and in 2008 we were out there in the heat of Texas summer doing mass carwashes (mandatory) to raise money for TM’s debt. I can’t help but speculate that Ron was actually just trying to make up for the big bucks he blew on TD Jakes. What the hell.
“Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own? No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”
The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.” (Luke 16:10-15)
“Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy. […] But people who long to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many foolish and harmful desires that plunge them into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.” (1 Timothy 6:5, 9-10)
“Those who love money will never have enough. How meaningless to think that wealth brings true happiness!” (Ecclesiastes 5:10)
“Like greedy dogs, they are never satisfied. They are ignorant shepherds, all following their own path and intent on personal gain.” (Isaiah 56:11)
Here endeth the lesson for the day, and the last shred of Teen Mania’s credibility.
Thank you so much for sharing openly your experience. It’s so disturbing to read this, and sadly, very believable.
It’s devastating that an organization, and a CEO, would be so careless with spending, with the sweat and tears of its interns, and with the donations of generous people.
I hope more people have the courage to step forward and share the ways in which a ministry that emphasizes accountability and integrity has so poorly failed in these regards.
Mica can attest to the fact that her and I have been talking about close to a year about this issue. I resisted doing this because I honestly and truly didn’t want to hurt the ministry, but with the news of their foreclosure and after reading the press release (which was tantamount to a Politician’s promises in a Presidential campaign speech) I knew that I needed to speak up. These secrets must come to light and Ron needs to be held accountable.
I don’t even know what to say. I thought I was beyond being hurt and upset by revelations from GV but this is just… omg. I’m beyond angry to know what has been done with money that people literally sweat and cried over to donate to do the work of God.
I’m disgusted by both Ron Luce and by T.D. Jakes.
There is nothing abnormal about the expenses made here. I have worked in several nonprofits. Larger and smaller than TM. Honorariums are completely normal and the cost listed might seem high to the average person, but after working with a ton of bands and speakers, this is completely normal. Other expenses and courting expenses are minimal compared to the potential payout. Everything is budged, and budgeted are approved.
As for salaries, he is making quite a bit less than what is the normal CEO of a non profit TM’s size. This is the problem with most Christians. They think that everyone should work for nothing. As for employees being paid much less than Ron. Yes, absolutely they do. and the should. They didn’t start the ministry. They don’t run the ministry. They are employees…and not forced to work there. When offered a salary, one has the right to refuse or accept. By accepting they are agreeing to the salary, regardless of what others make….wasn’t there a parable in the Bible about this? Something about the workers that worked for a full day and working for a partial day getting paid the same?
If you are upset with Ron and Bishop Jakes, then you should be upset by about 98% of the high level Christian artists and speakers. This is completely normal and acceptable.
Anonymous at 3:22 – So leaders should live in the lap of luxury while their followers whose work, blood, sweat and tears keep the ministry running lack for basic necessities like toilet paper? That is disgusting. If that is your christian god, I want nothing to do with him.
Anon @ 3:22 PM – The point of Jesus’ parable is that people should not complain when those who work less get rewarded the exact same amount as those who feel they deserve more, because God gives to everyone equally. You seem to be taking the side of the ones who think God should not give equally because they deserved more. That misses the point rather a bit.
Jesus specifically gives the moral to the parable: “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” (Matthew 20:16). How on earth do you propose to use this to justify a system in which “high level Christian artists and speakers” live in luxury and make five times as much for 50 minutes’ work as other employees make in a year?
I agree, though, when you say that we should be upset by a lot of high level Christian artists and speakers. But the fact that many other people commit the sin of avarice doesn’t make it any less of a sin when Ron Luce does it. It may be normal, but it’s not acceptable– at least, not to the One who said, “How hard it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven!”
For me, it is not the amount if money but the attitude behind the spending if it… there is something really wrong about wooing a fellow Christian to your ministry with extravagant gifts, especially as your intern body is struggling to deal with massive cut backs in the program they are paying to be part of… seriously did RD Jakes’ kids need another ipod when interns had no hand soap.
Anon @ 3:22,
I remember the first host home I ever stayed at when I was on the ministry team. The lady seemed annoyed by the very presence of me and my teammates. She directed us to her toddler son’s bedroom, where we slept on filthy sesame street bedding. She did not feed us that night or the next morning. Meanwhile, I worked myself to the point of exhaustion under the constant threat of being sent home because my parents and church community struggled to scrape together enough money to pay for me to be there. And when i was back in campus for the summer, i was forced to sleep in a trailer that literally had HOLES in the side of it, which allowed mice, raccoons, and ask manner if other vermin to make their home there alongside me and my roommates.There was mold and decay in the carpet and furniture, and there was no air conditioning, and none of my TEN roommates even thought to complain.
I’m sorry, but Ron’s time and energy was not $150,000+ more than mine, especially considering that he couldn’t have done any of what he was doing without me and others like me–and ESPECIALLY because I was helping to pay his salary with the hard earned money of my parents, who are not well-off by a long shot. Maybe this is how other organizations do it, but does that make it okay? Should a ministry really be run with the same capitalistic ethos of a secular organization? And how many ministries treat their workers so very poorly, or require their workers to pay for the privilege of working? And how many organizations refuse, for years, to scale back the scope of their vision to match the realistic limitations of their budget? You will find plenty of small not-for-profit organizations who do not pay their CEO as much a Ron and who responsibly cater to lower- tier celebrities with much smaller honorariums.
Anon@3:22:
I too worked for a non-profit at one point who wanted a “big dog” speaker to come. I too received the portfolio of demands including private jet fuel, five star accommodation, huge honorarium, etc. We were also on a limited budget.
The difference is, our answer was: thanks we’ll do without you, Mr. Fancy High-Dollar Preacher.
So…. yeah, it’s true other people charge that much. And yeah, it’s also true that organizations that realize what the word “budget” means do NOT simply fork over cash they don’t have.
It frightens me that you want to normalize behavior that breaks the backs of many to impress a few who are already wealthy.
Thank you to the courageous soul who shared this story.
Normal or not isn’t the point. The point is when your business is in financial trouble the first thing you do is cut expenses. If I cook a meal for 150 people and we don’t have enough for the high end meat I have to find a way to make lower end meats taste just as amazing. This is basic financial planning 101.
Lets look past the money talks here for a second.
This stands out to me more “I had just been told by Ron Luce himself that I had committed a fatal mistake that had the potential to ruin his entire vision for this event, and he was clearly disappointed with me.”
I mean this is how he treated you. That is a shame on him for that. Its a shame that he felt he had the right to step up to you in that manner. To tell you, that its all your fault for everything that is gone wrong. That is mind blowing.
Now back to the money
Wow just wow.
This is certainly not the first time Ron Luce bet a significant sum of money on some star speaker that would ostensibly impress… I’m not sure, maybe his target audience’s grandparents. I’m reminded of former US president Gerald Ford speaking at the second Pontiac Silverdome event, he probably cost as much as Jakes, there was a private jet involved there too.
Thank you for bringing validation to what almost any intern or staff with any business sense has picked up on in the last 15 years. In 1998, we were forced to purchase our own paper (on the tiny stipend that came out of our support money that also needed to be used to feed ourselves on the weekends and buy things like soap and toothpaste) to send letters to our supporters, asking for more money. I think that pretty much encapsulates the modus operandi of this “ministry”. Any repercussions that Teen Mania suffers in its fall, will be deserved.
I wonder how many of the persons writing in this site have ever done at least 10% of what TM has done for the Lord and for His Kingdom, I had a rough time going thru the HA and some things I did not agree with, however I’d never dare to judge or try to discredit a ministry that over 2 decades has sent thousands of teens for missions, and formed, overseas missionaries, pastors, youth pastor etc, I am a pastor now. The thing is that if you havent understood that even in a Godly ministry there are man mistakes because only Jesus was a sinless man, if someone is beong used by the enemy is whoever is behind this site. Matthew 7:2
Anon at 7:02— seriously? There is a point when mistakes of man cannot be looked past and chalked up to “we are flawed humans.” Ron Luce and TM are WAY beyond that point. I’ll give him a mulligan for maybe one or two of the stories on this site… but when there are over 100 people who have spoken out, and when now it isn’t just those of us deemed bitter, but is in actuality people that still support TM that are speaking out— there are no more mulligans for this man or his ministry. He and it need to be SHUT DOWN.
Yesssss!!!!! Thank you for sharing your perspective and the facts within. Some much needed reference to hard evidence to will hopefully continue to expose the hypocrisy and CRAZINESS of christian “ministries”. Luce quickly leaned how to work the crowd, has been doing it for years, and wanted to hit the big time. So glad I questioned that whole thing before, during, and after my “internship”, which was one of the worst years of my life. So glad my questioning brought me to where I am today: living a happy, meaningful life as an agnostic humanitarian.
It would be more than 125k according to your description. Also- who is this assistant. If i were writing a blog this specific, I would own it. C/O 1997
Thanks for sharing. I’m blown away at how many people think it’s okay to run a ministry like this off the back of kids that PAY to work. Bullshit.
Charlene – He chose to use a conservative number but said it was likely more than $140k.
Ron’s pay was $100,000/year PLUS additional $100,000.00 for travel and such (according to the FYE2012 990
150k for salary is not a big deal. I expect though that he could live very comfortable in middle of no where Texas with that.
Acquire The Fire carried Teen Mania financially. When that ended, so did the good times.
I worked atf events back in the late 90’s and I don’t remember how much they brought in but I am sure that there was a substantial profit for the bigger shows. They spent money on the production because it made money.
Thus the desire to have a big event with big speaker. Problem though is expensive city and expensive performers. Maybe it lost money?…
Anon @ 7:02 — “I wonder how many of the persons writing in this site have ever done at least 10% of what TM has done for the Lord and for His Kingdom.”
Any person who has ever said a kind word to someone who was hurting has done at least 10x more than TM has ever done for the Lord and for His Kingdom.
And how about Matthew 7:22.
@eric i disagree. TM has many faults and problems. Many.
But I think they have done a lot of good too.
But since when does the good outweigh the bad? A rapist who saves a drowning child is still a rapist and should be treated as such.
after all, Christian doctrine states that a single sin is enough to send one to hell….
Anon – It might depend how we define “good,” perhaps. After all, in the verse I just cited (Matthew 7:22-23) Jesus makes it pretty obvious that “doing a lot of good” is not the criteria that He judges by. And on the principle that “the last shall be first and the first shall be last,” it’s likely that those who are really doing the most for the Kingdom are not the seemingly obvious candidates.
My assertion that one act of love is worth more than all of TM’s flashy good deeds is in fact a direct nod to 1 Corinthians 13: “And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
That said, I do believe that God is very much able to use whatever the heck He wants to accomplish His work. Though I see it the other way around from some commenters here– it’s not that the organization is good but some people still make mistakes; it’s that the organization is bad but some people still love God.
@eric no desire to get into argument about definition of good. Nor do I care to discuss bible verses.
My experience at TM was generally good. I am not the kind of “bleeding heart” personality. Esoal was an option for me and I said “why would I ever subject myself to that?” I could see that there were problems but life is full of problems. I learned a lot. It messed me up in a couple ways. I am stronger now. Today I have turned essentially to not believeing in God. But I occasionally lean on my truthful memory of experiencing God while I was at TM. Of course on the other side TM is part time of the reason I no longer believe.
Thank you for sharing! I am not surprised, nor am I bitter. Nor do I think Ron should live on minimum wage…its his business to earn a decent wage. But there needs to be a line in ministry…not to capitalize on kids to feed the big Godly celebs. Ministry leaders are to serve… not for fame or money. Yes, there are big time ministry makers out there but some credible ones are sowing most of it back into their communities and the world.
I’m afraid there are a lot of blind alumni out there that don’t want to see the truth unfold. The bible does talk about being good stewards of our finances. HA is so quick to give the boot to people who supposedly fail at the internship. Rather than mentoring them, working alongside of them, or encouraging them to move forward. I being one of them. I served on various leadership panels, including ACA,CA, 3 yr CA, Women’s ministry, 1rst woman as Sports Coordinator, Co-founder of Terra Nova and Honor Council for two yrs.
But the Ron followers want to say no Ron is like our mini god, he can ask for forgiveness so we forgive and he can return to business as usual. Ok, fair enough, forgive and move on. But you dont forgive interns who fail. HA kicks you out and when you try to make amends, they tell you are not welcome to come back to visit. My true story! Then, when you arrive at campus they tell you not to stay on campus…they treat you like a diseased person. But I had the courage to walk through the staff’s put downs and some interns discouragement despite their spiritualism and prejudices. I had the courage to drive 2000 miles alone and tell my ex core that I made a mistake and to forgive me. They deserved it! Because I truly loved them…without a doubt.
The only true person in leadership that handled me with love and support during my dismissal was Mercer Cauley. I’m eternally grateful for the seed of love he bestowed as I was surrounded in such a dark place.You’ll never know what it is like to walk along the path to your dorm room, wave at your fellow CA’s whom you served with and many turn their heads and dont acknowledge you ….cause now all they’ll ever see you as is a “sinner”.
So we scroll the pages of this site and story after story it tears my heart. Then, we get yelled at by pharisee alumni who post on this site and tell us to shut up, we’re sick, it didnt happen, you guys are bitter, who cares its just 10% of the interns that are affected…look at us over here “the majority” we are happy…we had the best experience. So the story goes on after 11 yrs. We get looked upon as less than…like “sinners”.
Then, alumni who dont like us run back to there spiritual lives…behind ordained masks, praying God use me to change the world. When they in fact, low ball us over here…
There are two sides to every story. So why cant we share ours? I dont want money…I dont want to start a revolution ex minstry HA..I dont want nothing but to voice my story. So that maybe I can encourage someone scrolling these pages to afraid to speak up cause they are burdened with depression, thinking they have failed. We all fall…but we get back up again. And my knees have the scars to remind me to never forget where Ive been….the grace to walk again and the strength to be stronger today and the future.
I am grateful that I went through what I did at TM, the good and the bad. I learned alot of great things, overcame many fears and faced hard lessons. But my life story is to fight for the underdog. My God, my dad, my Jesus was for the underdog…he ran steadfast after the 1 that left the herd of 99.
Keep moving forward and never give up! 🙂
Jennifer
You are brave and I admire your tenacity and willingness to speak out. Thank you.
Fuck, I forgot about that car wash.
Well this post just pissed me off…
Battle Cry, in its first year, put TM 4 million dollars in debt. There was no profit.
Then, they had the audacity to ask interns to fund raise for the ministry ON TOP of their own fundraising.
If that’s not bad enough, TM continued with Battle Cry for the next 2 years. (maybe even longer, but I stopped paying attention by then)
Ron should get a six figure salary for speaking 4 hours a week? People dealing with nuclear material deserve 6 figure salaries, but not Ron. And especially not when his ministry can’t afford the campus. If he took a third of what his family earns, which is fairer, perhaps his ministry wouldn’t have defaulted.
BattleCry… nearly a half million dollars in printing costs, for plenty of glossy paper complete with spelling errors.
Beyond the salary issue – which is not over the top for a non-prof CEO, but certainly reflects leadership style to be drawing that number while leaving staff with a fraction of his income, and interns still paying to work and being taught that they should be content with little, since that is a mission mindset – the concern for any donors or future interns should be the attitude of money mismanagement.
“No one ever (or could ever) challenged Ron’s expenditures. I know this because one day I brought our department’s expenses to the Accounting department. The managing Accountant simply rolled her eyes and said, “I have stopped trying to figure out the EO’s finances, I just pay whatever I’m told to pay and keep quiet.” ”
I worked in the TM finance department in 2003, and can tell you that even then, budgeting was barely considered. Nearly every day, I was asked to call a vendor to whom we owed money and give an excuse about why we can’t pay yet or when we might send money. Suggested excuses I was fed were “We’ll get it to you next week,” “Oh, it’s on its way. Check back with us in a few days,” etc – none of which was true. We would have months of unpaid bills that kept coming back to us.
The department that seemed to spend the most recklessly that year was ATF. I don’t ever remember denying an order request from that department. The one department that ever seemed have issues clearing permissions for an expense was for the Honor Academy itself. Not surprisingly, the living conditions of the interns were not top priority. We had a parking swamp behind Morris Hall where intern cars were regularly stuck, but it took years to have the money approved for some concrete. Even repairing broken light fixtures was low on the list of spending priorities. And don’t even get me started on the food.
Ultimately, it’s the ATTITUDE of spending that is a major red flag for this non-profit. I think there was an air of “God will give us whatever money we need,” no matter how ridiculous the reasons. And for the head accountant herself to throw up her hands and just try to pay whatever was asked of her, regardless of money availability – that rings true with my experience years before talk of foreclosure. It’s this attitude of recklessness that doomed the business. And, as the author expresses, that attitude comes straight from Mr. Luce. I can’t say that any intern past or present would describe him as anything but reckless (good or bad). Doesn’t he even teach a class about being “reckless for God” or something? Sounds like him. He’s pretty crazy.
Omg. Those car washes… fuck those car washes.
Omg. Those car washes… fuck those car washes.
I was an alumnus from 06-08 and enjoyed thriving with the ministry at it’s height of size and apparently radical spending. I agree that Bishop Jakes charges way too much for his honorarium and probably left the idea of modesty behind when he started getting weekly calls to travel and speak all over the place. He likely just decided, like a for-profit business might do, to jack his price up to meet the “demand” instead of holding the requests before the Lord asking the Spirit for which one he should pursue – which seems like a more reasonable approach to deal with high volume. I also agree that Ron’s decision to place that much value on one “gifted” man of God to try and generate more revenue from a huge event was a misallocation of resources and a bad decision on TM’s part.
Just to speak up on the issues of Ron’s Salary alone: My field of expertise is Employee Compensation (Even in non-profits) and believe it or not, the median pay for Tyler TX with Ron’s resume (including the MBA at Harvard) puts him at a mid market Non-Profit CEO salary of about 178,000 total cash salary (with about 145K base) (The market ranges anywhere from 110K to 305K). I say that to give a benchmark against other ministries, but the tough question really revolves around the ministry comp strategy for all the staff – who have likely been drastically underpaid. Meaning, if they want to pay everyone at a certain fair market pay, that might mean top leaders take a pay cut before doing layoffs OR everyone agrees to live at a very low pay together – which is not the best for everyone’s livelihood and provision for their families. Layoffs aren’t necessarily bad when they are wise. This is a difficult decision for any leadership team to make amidst a struggling revenue stream. Bottom line is this: I agree that they would do well to consider hiring a new CEO who is not so married to the ministry as it’s founder would be and who can make hard decisions and strategic ones need to be made to keep TM afloat and back on the track to thriving, in ministry results and in finances that correlate.
FYI – Ron Luce does NOT have an MBA from Harvard. He only took a course there that lasted a few weeks.
This is not normal or acceptable at all, it’s an atrocity. Interns are convinced to work for free based on the idea that they are advancing God’s kingdom. Employees are often recruited from within and have been conditioned to live at a low financial standard, one that is unsustainable in our culture. They are also encouraged to forego opportunities for furthering themselves financially by being offered limited options for college as a TMM staff member, or be forced to put off getting an education in order to work for the ministry. It is outrageous that a ministry who claimed that to be a leader one must follow a higher level of accountability than their followers would expect their subordinates to live at wages below the poverty level while they themselves had more than enough for themselves and their families is abhorrent. It doesn’t matter what the industry standard is for non-profits and non-profit CEOs because Ron Luce and Teen Mania do not claim to be just any other normal non-profit, they claim to be the sole bearers of a message of the lifestyle requirements and theological beliefs necessary to obtain good standing with God. The levels of psychological abuse this contains is staggering. I can’t believe anyone would not look on Teen Mania without feelings of disgust and shame.
The idea that this astronomical compensation for Ron Luce is acceptable because he was a “ground floor” guy at the beginning? Absolute crap – you’re either committed to the prospect of spreading a message and ministering to the needs of others, or you’re a businessman motivated by the bottom line and maximum return. Despite the fervent attempts of the latter to justify their milking of limited funds while claiming to also be the former, these two objectives simply don’t mix. Call the man what he really is – be that businessman, opportunist, exploiter of young people, or (as some have suggested) cult leader. Having worked in non-profits and started many an initiative from the ground-floor up, I certainly never saw my “first-in” position as an excuse to profit off the backs of those who came after. I mean, isn’t that why people work for non-profits and charitable organizations in the first place? By its very definition, “non-profit” means non-profit – period.
My heart does legitimately go out to everyone who was duped into what they believed to be a very worthwhile enterprise, only to experience the kind of duplicitous exploitation described in multiple previous postings. My hope is that you don’t give up on the inherent goodness of people and the world in which we live…
this is nothing but the Word of God being fulfilled!!!!didnt the Lord Jesus already tell us what was going to happened in these last days…!!!didnt Paul preach and teach what these so called “LEADERS” would become????yes this is really shocking to hear…but should we REALLY be shocked????the Holy Bible already told us of these things…..yet folks still being deceived by these “MINISTRIES and MINISTERS!!!!WAKE UP CHRISTIANS….READ YOUR BIBLES AND KNOW THE REAL TRUTH THAT SETS YOU FREE!!!!!!!
Wow. Just wow.
Oh my god and in 2008 we were out there in the heat of Texas summer doing mass carwashes (mandatory) to raise money for TM’s debt. I can’t help but speculate that Ron was actually just trying to make up for the big bucks he blew on TD Jakes. What the hell.
“Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own? No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”
The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.” (Luke 16:10-15)
“Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy. […] But people who long to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many foolish and harmful desires that plunge them into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.” (1 Timothy 6:5, 9-10)
“Those who love money will never have enough. How meaningless to think that wealth brings true happiness!” (Ecclesiastes 5:10)
“Like greedy dogs, they are never satisfied. They are ignorant shepherds, all following their own path and intent on personal gain.” (Isaiah 56:11)
Here endeth the lesson for the day, and the last shred of Teen Mania’s credibility.
Holy shit.
Eric, well said
Thank you so much for sharing openly your experience. It’s so disturbing to read this, and sadly, very believable.
It’s devastating that an organization, and a CEO, would be so careless with spending, with the sweat and tears of its interns, and with the donations of generous people.
I hope more people have the courage to step forward and share the ways in which a ministry that emphasizes accountability and integrity has so poorly failed in these regards.
Mica can attest to the fact that her and I have been talking about close to a year about this issue. I resisted doing this because I honestly and truly didn’t want to hurt the ministry, but with the news of their foreclosure and after reading the press release (which was tantamount to a Politician’s promises in a Presidential campaign speech) I knew that I needed to speak up. These secrets must come to light and Ron needs to be held accountable.
Thank you for sharing Anon
I don’t even know what to say. I thought I was beyond being hurt and upset by revelations from GV but this is just… omg. I’m beyond angry to know what has been done with money that people literally sweat and cried over to donate to do the work of God.
I’m disgusted by both Ron Luce and by T.D. Jakes.
There is nothing abnormal about the expenses made here. I have worked in several nonprofits. Larger and smaller than TM. Honorariums are completely normal and the cost listed might seem high to the average person, but after working with a ton of bands and speakers, this is completely normal. Other expenses and courting expenses are minimal compared to the potential payout. Everything is budged, and budgeted are approved.
As for salaries, he is making quite a bit less than what is the normal CEO of a non profit TM’s size. This is the problem with most Christians. They think that everyone should work for nothing. As for employees being paid much less than Ron. Yes, absolutely they do. and the should. They didn’t start the ministry. They don’t run the ministry. They are employees…and not forced to work there. When offered a salary, one has the right to refuse or accept. By accepting they are agreeing to the salary, regardless of what others make….wasn’t there a parable in the Bible about this? Something about the workers that worked for a full day and working for a partial day getting paid the same?
If you are upset with Ron and Bishop Jakes, then you should be upset by about 98% of the high level Christian artists and speakers. This is completely normal and acceptable.
Anonymous at 3:22 – So leaders should live in the lap of luxury while their followers whose work, blood, sweat and tears keep the ministry running lack for basic necessities like toilet paper? That is disgusting. If that is your christian god, I want nothing to do with him.
Anon @ 3:22 PM – The point of Jesus’ parable is that people should not complain when those who work less get rewarded the exact same amount as those who feel they deserve more, because God gives to everyone equally. You seem to be taking the side of the ones who think God should not give equally because they deserved more. That misses the point rather a bit.
Jesus specifically gives the moral to the parable: “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” (Matthew 20:16). How on earth do you propose to use this to justify a system in which “high level Christian artists and speakers” live in luxury and make five times as much for 50 minutes’ work as other employees make in a year?
I agree, though, when you say that we should be upset by a lot of high level Christian artists and speakers. But the fact that many other people commit the sin of avarice doesn’t make it any less of a sin when Ron Luce does it. It may be normal, but it’s not acceptable– at least, not to the One who said, “How hard it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven!”
For me, it is not the amount if money but the attitude behind the spending if it… there is something really wrong about wooing a fellow Christian to your ministry with extravagant gifts, especially as your intern body is struggling to deal with massive cut backs in the program they are paying to be part of… seriously did RD Jakes’ kids need another ipod when interns had no hand soap.
Anon @ 3:22,
I remember the first host home I ever stayed at when I was on the ministry team. The lady seemed annoyed by the very presence of me and my teammates. She directed us to her toddler son’s bedroom, where we slept on filthy sesame street bedding. She did not feed us that night or the next morning. Meanwhile, I worked myself to the point of exhaustion under the constant threat of being sent home because my parents and church community struggled to scrape together enough money to pay for me to be there. And when i was back in campus for the summer, i was forced to sleep in a trailer that literally had HOLES in the side of it, which allowed mice, raccoons, and ask manner if other vermin to make their home there alongside me and my roommates.There was mold and decay in the carpet and furniture, and there was no air conditioning, and none of my TEN roommates even thought to complain.
I’m sorry, but Ron’s time and energy was not $150,000+ more than mine, especially considering that he couldn’t have done any of what he was doing without me and others like me–and ESPECIALLY because I was helping to pay his salary with the hard earned money of my parents, who are not well-off by a long shot. Maybe this is how other organizations do it, but does that make it okay? Should a ministry really be run with the same capitalistic ethos of a secular organization? And how many ministries treat their workers so very poorly, or require their workers to pay for the privilege of working? And how many organizations refuse, for years, to scale back the scope of their vision to match the realistic limitations of their budget? You will find plenty of small not-for-profit organizations who do not pay their CEO as much a Ron and who responsibly cater to lower- tier celebrities with much smaller honorariums.
Anon@3:22:
I too worked for a non-profit at one point who wanted a “big dog” speaker to come. I too received the portfolio of demands including private jet fuel, five star accommodation, huge honorarium, etc. We were also on a limited budget.
The difference is, our answer was: thanks we’ll do without you, Mr. Fancy High-Dollar Preacher.
So…. yeah, it’s true other people charge that much. And yeah, it’s also true that organizations that realize what the word “budget” means do NOT simply fork over cash they don’t have.
It frightens me that you want to normalize behavior that breaks the backs of many to impress a few who are already wealthy.
Thank you to the courageous soul who shared this story.
Normal or not isn’t the point. The point is when your business is in financial trouble the first thing you do is cut expenses. If I cook a meal for 150 people and we don’t have enough for the high end meat I have to find a way to make lower end meats taste just as amazing. This is basic financial planning 101.
Lets look past the money talks here for a second.
This stands out to me more “I had just been told by Ron Luce himself that I had committed a fatal mistake that had the potential to ruin his entire vision for this event, and he was clearly disappointed with me.”
I mean this is how he treated you. That is a shame on him for that. Its a shame that he felt he had the right to step up to you in that manner. To tell you, that its all your fault for everything that is gone wrong. That is mind blowing.
Now back to the money
Wow just wow.
This is certainly not the first time Ron Luce bet a significant sum of money on some star speaker that would ostensibly impress… I’m not sure, maybe his target audience’s grandparents. I’m reminded of former US president Gerald Ford speaking at the second Pontiac Silverdome event, he probably cost as much as Jakes, there was a private jet involved there too.
Thank you for bringing validation to what almost any intern or staff with any business sense has picked up on in the last 15 years. In 1998, we were forced to purchase our own paper (on the tiny stipend that came out of our support money that also needed to be used to feed ourselves on the weekends and buy things like soap and toothpaste) to send letters to our supporters, asking for more money. I think that pretty much encapsulates the modus operandi of this “ministry”. Any repercussions that Teen Mania suffers in its fall, will be deserved.
I wonder how many of the persons writing in this site have ever done at least 10% of what TM has done for the Lord and for His Kingdom, I had a rough time going thru the HA and some things I did not agree with, however I’d never dare to judge or try to discredit a ministry that over 2 decades has sent thousands of teens for missions, and formed, overseas missionaries, pastors, youth pastor etc, I am a pastor now. The thing is that if you havent understood that even in a Godly ministry there are man mistakes because only Jesus was a sinless man, if someone is beong used by the enemy is whoever is behind this site. Matthew 7:2
Friend you must be new here.
Anon at 7:02— seriously? There is a point when mistakes of man cannot be looked past and chalked up to “we are flawed humans.” Ron Luce and TM are WAY beyond that point. I’ll give him a mulligan for maybe one or two of the stories on this site… but when there are over 100 people who have spoken out, and when now it isn’t just those of us deemed bitter, but is in actuality people that still support TM that are speaking out— there are no more mulligans for this man or his ministry. He and it need to be SHUT DOWN.
Yesssss!!!!! Thank you for sharing your perspective and the facts within. Some much needed reference to hard evidence to will hopefully continue to expose the hypocrisy and CRAZINESS of christian “ministries”. Luce quickly leaned how to work the crowd, has been doing it for years, and wanted to hit the big time. So glad I questioned that whole thing before, during, and after my “internship”, which was one of the worst years of my life. So glad my questioning brought me to where I am today: living a happy, meaningful life as an agnostic humanitarian.
Your math doesnt add up…
Charlene – In what way?
It would be more than 125k according to your description. Also- who is this assistant. If i were writing a blog this specific, I would own it. C/O 1997
Hey Mike- how are you?
Thanks for sharing. I’m blown away at how many people think it’s okay to run a ministry like this off the back of kids that PAY to work. Bullshit.
Charlene – He chose to use a conservative number but said it was likely more than $140k.
Ron’s pay was $100,000/year PLUS additional $100,000.00 for travel and such (according to the FYE2012 990
150k for salary is not a big deal. I expect though that he could live very comfortable in middle of no where Texas with that.
Acquire The Fire carried Teen Mania financially. When that ended, so did the good times.
I worked atf events back in the late 90’s and I don’t remember how much they brought in but I am sure that there was a substantial profit for the bigger shows. They spent money on the production because it made money.
Thus the desire to have a big event with big speaker. Problem though is expensive city and expensive performers. Maybe it lost money?…
Anon @ 7:02 — “I wonder how many of the persons writing in this site have ever done at least 10% of what TM has done for the Lord and for His Kingdom.”
Any person who has ever said a kind word to someone who was hurting has done at least 10x more than TM has ever done for the Lord and for His Kingdom.
And how about Matthew 7:22.
@eric i disagree. TM has many faults and problems. Many.
But I think they have done a lot of good too.
But since when does the good outweigh the bad? A rapist who saves a drowning child is still a rapist and should be treated as such.
after all, Christian doctrine states that a single sin is enough to send one to hell….
Anon – It might depend how we define “good,” perhaps. After all, in the verse I just cited (Matthew 7:22-23) Jesus makes it pretty obvious that “doing a lot of good” is not the criteria that He judges by. And on the principle that “the last shall be first and the first shall be last,” it’s likely that those who are really doing the most for the Kingdom are not the seemingly obvious candidates.
My assertion that one act of love is worth more than all of TM’s flashy good deeds is in fact a direct nod to 1 Corinthians 13: “And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
That said, I do believe that God is very much able to use whatever the heck He wants to accomplish His work. Though I see it the other way around from some commenters here– it’s not that the organization is good but some people still make mistakes; it’s that the organization is bad but some people still love God.
no surprises here. I seriously hate this place.
@eric no desire to get into argument about definition of good. Nor do I care to discuss bible verses.
My experience at TM was generally good. I am not the kind of “bleeding heart” personality. Esoal was an option for me and I said “why would I ever subject myself to that?” I could see that there were problems but life is full of problems. I learned a lot. It messed me up in a couple ways. I am stronger now. Today I have turned essentially to not believeing in God. But I occasionally lean on my truthful memory of experiencing God while I was at TM. Of course on the other side TM is part time of the reason I no longer believe.
Thank you for sharing! I am not surprised, nor am I bitter. Nor do I think Ron should live on minimum wage…its his business to earn a decent wage. But there needs to be a line in ministry…not to capitalize on kids to feed the big Godly celebs. Ministry leaders are to serve… not for fame or money. Yes, there are big time ministry makers out there but some credible ones are sowing most of it back into their communities and the world.
I’m afraid there are a lot of blind alumni out there that don’t want to see the truth unfold. The bible does talk about being good stewards of our finances. HA is so quick to give the boot to people who supposedly fail at the internship. Rather than mentoring them, working alongside of them, or encouraging them to move forward. I being one of them. I served on various leadership panels, including ACA,CA, 3 yr CA, Women’s ministry, 1rst woman as Sports Coordinator, Co-founder of Terra Nova and Honor Council for two yrs.
But the Ron followers want to say no Ron is like our mini god, he can ask for forgiveness so we forgive and he can return to business as usual. Ok, fair enough, forgive and move on. But you dont forgive interns who fail. HA kicks you out and when you try to make amends, they tell you are not welcome to come back to visit. My true story! Then, when you arrive at campus they tell you not to stay on campus…they treat you like a diseased person. But I had the courage to walk through the staff’s put downs and some interns discouragement despite their spiritualism and prejudices. I had the courage to drive 2000 miles alone and tell my ex core that I made a mistake and to forgive me. They deserved it! Because I truly loved them…without a doubt.
The only true person in leadership that handled me with love and support during my dismissal was Mercer Cauley. I’m eternally grateful for the seed of love he bestowed as I was surrounded in such a dark place.You’ll never know what it is like to walk along the path to your dorm room, wave at your fellow CA’s whom you served with and many turn their heads and dont acknowledge you ….cause now all they’ll ever see you as is a “sinner”.
So we scroll the pages of this site and story after story it tears my heart. Then, we get yelled at by pharisee alumni who post on this site and tell us to shut up, we’re sick, it didnt happen, you guys are bitter, who cares its just 10% of the interns that are affected…look at us over here “the majority” we are happy…we had the best experience. So the story goes on after 11 yrs. We get looked upon as less than…like “sinners”.
Then, alumni who dont like us run back to there spiritual lives…behind ordained masks, praying God use me to change the world. When they in fact, low ball us over here…
There are two sides to every story. So why cant we share ours? I dont want money…I dont want to start a revolution ex minstry HA..I dont want nothing but to voice my story. So that maybe I can encourage someone scrolling these pages to afraid to speak up cause they are burdened with depression, thinking they have failed. We all fall…but we get back up again. And my knees have the scars to remind me to never forget where Ive been….the grace to walk again and the strength to be stronger today and the future.
I am grateful that I went through what I did at TM, the good and the bad. I learned alot of great things, overcame many fears and faced hard lessons. But my life story is to fight for the underdog. My God, my dad, my Jesus was for the underdog…he ran steadfast after the 1 that left the herd of 99.
Keep moving forward and never give up! 🙂
Jennifer
You are brave and I admire your tenacity and willingness to speak out. Thank you.
Fuck, I forgot about that car wash.
Well this post just pissed me off…
Battle Cry, in its first year, put TM 4 million dollars in debt. There was no profit.
Then, they had the audacity to ask interns to fund raise for the ministry ON TOP of their own fundraising.
If that’s not bad enough, TM continued with Battle Cry for the next 2 years. (maybe even longer, but I stopped paying attention by then)
Ron should get a six figure salary for speaking 4 hours a week? People dealing with nuclear material deserve 6 figure salaries, but not Ron. And especially not when his ministry can’t afford the campus. If he took a third of what his family earns, which is fairer, perhaps his ministry wouldn’t have defaulted.
BattleCry… nearly a half million dollars in printing costs, for plenty of glossy paper complete with spelling errors.
Beyond the salary issue – which is not over the top for a non-prof CEO, but certainly reflects leadership style to be drawing that number while leaving staff with a fraction of his income, and interns still paying to work and being taught that they should be content with little, since that is a mission mindset – the concern for any donors or future interns should be the attitude of money mismanagement.
“No one ever (or could ever) challenged Ron’s expenditures. I know this because one day I brought our department’s expenses to the Accounting department. The managing Accountant simply rolled her eyes and said, “I have stopped trying to figure out the EO’s finances, I just pay whatever I’m told to pay and keep quiet.” ”
I worked in the TM finance department in 2003, and can tell you that even then, budgeting was barely considered. Nearly every day, I was asked to call a vendor to whom we owed money and give an excuse about why we can’t pay yet or when we might send money. Suggested excuses I was fed were “We’ll get it to you next week,” “Oh, it’s on its way. Check back with us in a few days,” etc – none of which was true. We would have months of unpaid bills that kept coming back to us.
The department that seemed to spend the most recklessly that year was ATF. I don’t ever remember denying an order request from that department. The one department that ever seemed have issues clearing permissions for an expense was for the Honor Academy itself. Not surprisingly, the living conditions of the interns were not top priority. We had a parking swamp behind Morris Hall where intern cars were regularly stuck, but it took years to have the money approved for some concrete. Even repairing broken light fixtures was low on the list of spending priorities. And don’t even get me started on the food.
Ultimately, it’s the ATTITUDE of spending that is a major red flag for this non-profit. I think there was an air of “God will give us whatever money we need,” no matter how ridiculous the reasons. And for the head accountant herself to throw up her hands and just try to pay whatever was asked of her, regardless of money availability – that rings true with my experience years before talk of foreclosure. It’s this attitude of recklessness that doomed the business. And, as the author expresses, that attitude comes straight from Mr. Luce. I can’t say that any intern past or present would describe him as anything but reckless (good or bad). Doesn’t he even teach a class about being “reckless for God” or something? Sounds like him. He’s pretty crazy.
THIS MAN IS GOING DOWN!!!!
You just wait and see!!!
Omg. Those car washes… fuck those car washes.
Omg. Those car washes… fuck those car washes.
I was an alumnus from 06-08 and enjoyed thriving with the ministry at it’s height of size and apparently radical spending. I agree that Bishop Jakes charges way too much for his honorarium and probably left the idea of modesty behind when he started getting weekly calls to travel and speak all over the place. He likely just decided, like a for-profit business might do, to jack his price up to meet the “demand” instead of holding the requests before the Lord asking the Spirit for which one he should pursue – which seems like a more reasonable approach to deal with high volume. I also agree that Ron’s decision to place that much value on one “gifted” man of God to try and generate more revenue from a huge event was a misallocation of resources and a bad decision on TM’s part.
Just to speak up on the issues of Ron’s Salary alone: My field of expertise is Employee Compensation (Even in non-profits) and believe it or not, the median pay for Tyler TX with Ron’s resume (including the MBA at Harvard) puts him at a mid market Non-Profit CEO salary of about 178,000 total cash salary (with about 145K base) (The market ranges anywhere from 110K to 305K). I say that to give a benchmark against other ministries, but the tough question really revolves around the ministry comp strategy for all the staff – who have likely been drastically underpaid. Meaning, if they want to pay everyone at a certain fair market pay, that might mean top leaders take a pay cut before doing layoffs OR everyone agrees to live at a very low pay together – which is not the best for everyone’s livelihood and provision for their families. Layoffs aren’t necessarily bad when they are wise. This is a difficult decision for any leadership team to make amidst a struggling revenue stream. Bottom line is this: I agree that they would do well to consider hiring a new CEO who is not so married to the ministry as it’s founder would be and who can make hard decisions and strategic ones need to be made to keep TM afloat and back on the track to thriving, in ministry results and in finances that correlate.
FYI – Ron Luce does NOT have an MBA from Harvard. He only took a course there that lasted a few weeks.
This is not normal or acceptable at all, it’s an atrocity. Interns are convinced to work for free based on the idea that they are advancing God’s kingdom. Employees are often recruited from within and have been conditioned to live at a low financial standard, one that is unsustainable in our culture. They are also encouraged to forego opportunities for furthering themselves financially by being offered limited options for college as a TMM staff member, or be forced to put off getting an education in order to work for the ministry. It is outrageous that a ministry who claimed that to be a leader one must follow a higher level of accountability than their followers would expect their subordinates to live at wages below the poverty level while they themselves had more than enough for themselves and their families is abhorrent. It doesn’t matter what the industry standard is for non-profits and non-profit CEOs because Ron Luce and Teen Mania do not claim to be just any other normal non-profit, they claim to be the sole bearers of a message of the lifestyle requirements and theological beliefs necessary to obtain good standing with God. The levels of psychological abuse this contains is staggering. I can’t believe anyone would not look on Teen Mania without feelings of disgust and shame.
The idea that this astronomical compensation for Ron Luce is acceptable because he was a “ground floor” guy at the beginning? Absolute crap – you’re either committed to the prospect of spreading a message and ministering to the needs of others, or you’re a businessman motivated by the bottom line and maximum return. Despite the fervent attempts of the latter to justify their milking of limited funds while claiming to also be the former, these two objectives simply don’t mix. Call the man what he really is – be that businessman, opportunist, exploiter of young people, or (as some have suggested) cult leader. Having worked in non-profits and started many an initiative from the ground-floor up, I certainly never saw my “first-in” position as an excuse to profit off the backs of those who came after. I mean, isn’t that why people work for non-profits and charitable organizations in the first place? By its very definition, “non-profit” means non-profit – period.
My heart does legitimately go out to everyone who was duped into what they believed to be a very worthwhile enterprise, only to experience the kind of duplicitous exploitation described in multiple previous postings. My hope is that you don’t give up on the inherent goodness of people and the world in which we live…
this is nothing but the Word of God being fulfilled!!!!didnt the Lord Jesus already tell us what was going to happened in these last days…!!!didnt Paul preach and teach what these so called “LEADERS” would become????yes this is really shocking to hear…but should we REALLY be shocked????the Holy Bible already told us of these things…..yet folks still being deceived by these “MINISTRIES and MINISTERS!!!!WAKE UP CHRISTIANS….READ YOUR BIBLES AND KNOW THE REAL TRUTH THAT SETS YOU FREE!!!!!!!
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