Before we look at the specifics of Ron Luce’s teachings on sex, I want to highlight this very disturbing and dangerous doctrine. In a 2001 teaching, Ron says:
Sexual intimacy outside of marriage always breaks trust. If you have sex before marriage, you’ll never have full trust in your partner. You’ll be suspicious that they are cheating on you for the rest of your lives. It doesn’t matter what you do or how much you forgive.
At Teen Mania, there is NO forgiveness for sexual sin. Once you have committed a sexual sin or perceived sexual sin you are forever branded – you might as well wear a scarlet letter.
This is an outrageous scandal for a preacher that claims to preach a God of FORGIVENESS AND RESTORATION. I dont’ know how much clearly Ron can say it – but he doesn’t believe in forgiveness! He doesn’t believe in restoration! Once you’ve sinned, that’s it – you are just screwed.
Of course, this is TOTAL BULLSHIT. Marrying someone who is not a virgin does not mean you are doomed to a marriage with broken trust! If you or your partner have repented, not just in word but also in action, then there is NO reason that trust cannot be restored. In fact, if you have reason not to trust your partner, why would you marry them?
I’m so outraged by this teaching that I can hardly see straight. Ron is robbing the interns of grace. He is setting up his own standards and totally nullifying the grace of God and the sacrifice that Christ made. Any person who suggests that no matter how much you forgive, you will always be suspicious of your spouse says more to me about HIS ability to forgive and to trust then it says about the reality that the rest of the world lives in or the reality of Christ’s work in our lives.
If you have sinned sexually, you are not damaged goods. You are not less deserving of a good mate. You are deserving of love, grace and forgiveness because someone much greater than Ron Luce is offering them to you.
51 comments:
“You are deserving of love, grace and forgiveness because someone much greater than Ron Luce is offering them to you.”
Like.
Hubby and I messed up before we got married. Funny, I must have been sleeping when Ron gave this talk, ‘cuz I TOTALLY missed the part about not being able to trust each other for the rest of our lives, ever.
I have never ever ever, even for a moment, doubted his faithfulness to me. Neither has he ever felt any distrust toward me. We are secure in our relationship. If we didn’t have trust for one another, we wouldn’t have gotten married.
This teaching is absurd. It has the potential to create distrust where there wouldn’t have been any before.
My grandparents were sexually active with each other to the point of getting her Pregnant before they tied the not. They never had a trust issue with each other and were Married 66.5 beautiful years and had a pretty large footprint on their world. God Blessed their family greatly and I never saw them fight one day in the 30 years I knew them. Having examples like that shows God still blesses you in your marriage even if RL doesnt.
“When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Well I do. Nobody wilt be able to trust thee again, no matter whatsoever thou doest for the rest of thy life, you won’t be forgiven, even if you go and sin no more.”
Seriously, how long are people going to get away with saying the exact opposite of what Jesus said and calling it Christian? Sheesh.
“At Teen Mania, there is NO forgiveness for sexual sin.”
Actually, Ron never said that. He was talking trust. To make the claim you did above is dishonest. The very fact that the final sentence of your quote shows that he does differentiate a difference between trust and forgiveness.
Whether you disagree with the trust issue is your opinion, but it is outside the realm of theology and outside the realm of most of your comments.
Cal – Good point, I can understand why you said that. However, that statement was based not only on Ron’s teaching, but on the multitude of people who have been branded because of a sin or perceived sin. Perhaps I should have made that more clear.
If the quote you gave above is actually word for word what he said, then I do agree that he was being a little overzealous in saying “for the rest of your lives.” For some, many, most? there may be a trust issue with this, especially among Christians. But to extrapolate any of the theological comments you said and others have said above is also overzealous and dishonest. He was talking about trust in a marriage. You are talking about being branded and grace, of which Ron said nothing about.
Cal, I’m not sure if you’ve ever been to the Honor Academy, but if you ask some former interns who made sexual mistakes (or were perceived too) how they were treated by staff, you would see that they were NOT given grace. They were not given restoration. Even though they repented, they were branded with the label “sexual deviant.”
If you’re talking about mistakes done while at the HA, then yes, they had to accept the consequences of breaking the rules. If it concerns mistakes made outside the HA years, given the person was truly repentent, and obviously I don’t know the specifics, but I do know that the HA leadership does teach forgiveness, while still accepting the consequences.
Besides the point. The specific quote you gave of Luce does not demonstrate this and your theological comments along with the others are dishonest in that they make Luce say something he didn’t.
I’d be MORE worried that my spouse wanted to cheat if I WAS the only one they’d ever had sex with. Knowing they were free from fear and made decisions based on what they felt was best for them and not trying to live up to some ridiculous standard of absitinence *because of fear someone instilled in them* would make it that much more special when they chose to marry me and “forsake all others” I’d be thinking well, you know what’s out there and you pick me? Right on! I know MANY people who waited out of that fear and then later start wondering what it’s like to be with someone else. I’d venture to say that’s very common.
Obviously the stories I know are all anecdotal just like the one’s other people know of folks who are happy to have only been with one person. So my point is… Ron telling kids don’t have sex because then you are cheating on your spouse and nobody can ever trust you and you are damned to a marriage full of suspicion and mistrust is RIDICULOUS and SO damaging!
Keep your narrow minded opinion to yourself, weirdo and stop using your influence to eff with kids’ heads! (to RL)
enlightenmentisntsoscary,
Regardless of what you said, your final comment negates it all. Isn’t what you said also a narrow minded opinion that you should keep to yourself?
I see two possible scenarios here.
Scenario A) If Ron and Katie were virgins when they got married, then he is not speaking from firsthand knowledge. He is saying that everyone goes through this, when he has no personal experience to back it up. On what grounds does he make this claim? Just talking to people? Are there any studies on this? Actual statistics? No, this is a conclusion he has drawn from observation, but you can’t make a blanket statement like this from observation. If Ron and Katie were virgins when they got married, he doesn’t even have his own life story to back him up on this–just observation.
Scenario B) If Ron and Katie were sexually active before marriage (either with each other or someone else), then his lessons and teachings that are based on his own marriage are obviously invalid, as they are evidently a couple who can never fully trust each other. Would I ever go to someone for marital advice if I knew that they had always inherently distrusted each other? Hell no.
In fact, either way, I don’t want to go to Ron Luce for marriage/relationship/sex advice EVER.
Cal,
The HA may offer forgiveness in name, but the point is, if you’re constantly drilling into someone’s head that they can never escape the consequences of one sin, no matter how far in the past it happened, no matter how many amends they’ve made, and no matter the fact that GOD HAS FORGIVEN THEM already, etc. . .then I don’t want that kind of forgiveness, because it doesn’t sound like forgiveness at all.
So, yeah, RA says “there is no forgiveness,” while you say, “Yes there is.”
But that’s because the two of you are defining forgiveness differently. There is nothing sinister in her use of the words “no forgiveness.” She’s simply pointing out that Ron Luce and the HA teach, in very specific terms, that if you have sex (or even “connect”) with another person, you’re damaged goods for life. And that is not Biblical.
No, not at all Cal because I present it clearly as my opinion and infact point out that it is on the same level as the opposite opinion.
Liz BR,
Scenario A) Do you have allow a truck to roll over your leg to know whether it is a good idea or not? Firsthand knowledge is not necessary to have knowledge period. Observation, for one, is a good way of having knowledge. But there are many studies which have shown there are a huge amount of marital problems associated with living and sleeping together before marriage.
Scenario B) Or you could see it that I would definitely take advice concerning drug rehabilitation from my cousin who is a recovering addict. This could be considered wisdom. Your final comment of the paragraph does not make sense. All Ron said in the quote concerns possible mistrust. You first started with the assumption that one must have firsthand experience to have knowledge, but then you finished with the idea that if one has firsthand experience, then they can’t be trusted with that knowledge. Your comments refute one another.
Cal,
Observation is incredibly useful. But there is not one study to back up this absurd claim that EVERYONE who has sex before marriage is unable to trust their spouse once they are married. Not a single study. Observation from an incredibly limited pool of subjects (evangelical Christians at ATFs, evangelical Christians at the HA, evangelical Christians in politics and churches, etc–definitely a limited group) is not a valid way to draw a conclusion.
Or, at the very least, state that it’s from observation, and that it seems that most people experience this. But to say EVERYONE? Totally irresponsible, and definitely wrong.
No, the comments show that whether Ron has experience with this or not, the conclusion he draws is faulty and shouldn’t be trusted. Because if he doesn’t have experience with it, he needs to prove why he believes it, but if he does have experience with it, and this is what his life is like, holy crap! He’s super messed up! If you can’t trust your wife because you had sex before you’re married, you’ve got major issues.
“enlightenmentisntsoscary said…
No, not at all Cal because I present it clearly as my opinion and infact point out that it is on the same level as the opposite opinion.”
Excellent point, friend. There is an inherent difference between an anonymous username stating an opinion on a blog, and a major authority figure stating an opinion (while presenting it as fact) from a pulpit.
You have pointed out something important here.
Yes, sin has consequences. But it’s the HA’s notion of “necessary consequences” that is the problem. To go as far as Ron did… to suggest that if A) Happens then B) will happen in such a complex scenario is absurd.
When I left Teen Mania during my second year after being LIED to by a core staff member… and being convinced to sign on for a second year under false pretenses… I was told that I would never be able to keep a commitment if I broke this one (Even though they lied to me…)and that my marriage would suffer, as I would never be able to be faithful to my husband. Where does that crap come from? I think the Bible has more to say about the power of the tongue (LIFE AND DEATH) than it does about keeping commitments to abusive organizations who are always looking for new ways to manipulate you.
I carried that curse (Thanks, Kelly HASZ!) with me for the first year of my marriage. I was walking in those consequences… so their sentence had to have been true… right? WRONG. It was my husband who finally said “NO MORE”. There was freedom in our relationship, and our marriage has been strong ever since. Was Kelly’s creepy “prediction” right? No. But I gave her more power than she should have been given.
How many people who were subjected to this teaching of Ron’s could be living a life of mistrust and misery because they subconsciously believe they are paying some God-ordained price for their pre-marital actions? That’s nothing short of tragic. Because in light of what Christ came to do… anytime His people are left in bondage because of a legalistically imposed idea of necessary consequences… it is a tragedy. As if He never came in the first place.
This is one of the many issues addressed on this site that is the most painful for me, for obvious reasons.
Hey Cal, so are you saying that the HA, TM, and all the teachings do NOT give labels to people who make mistakes, or are perceived to make mistakes, at the internship? I can state for a FACT that you do NOT know what you are talking about. While an intern, a girl said I told her I liked her, which was NOT the case. HOWEVER, I WAS put on probation, WITHOUT my side of the story being heard or going before the Honor Council. In addition, after being dismissed for being used by girl, my records from TM were HANDED, without my knowledge, to a church and inside my file I was LABELED as a sexual predator. Now, where was ~I~ in the wrong in ANY of that??? Where was the “forgiveness” that RL talks about?
Now, my marriage has had it’s rough spots, but that’s because of what I’VE done inside of the marriage, and NOT what I did BEFORE I got married. THAT’S where the difference is. Most people can forgive the other for things that happened before they met the person, but the trust gets broken for what you do WHILE with that person, and NOT before.
That’s nothing short of tragic. Because in light of what Christ came to do… anytime His people are left in bondage because of a legalistically imposed idea of necessary consequences… it is a tragedy. As if He never came in the first place.
I love this comment from J – it sums up SO much of what is wrong with the Honor Academy’s theology.
I personally think that Ron is right. I’m glad that I married a virgin, as a virgin. I would be suspicious of anyone who had slept around.
Living through consequences for your actions is not equivalent to being labeled. Protesting consequences sounds like a four-year-old complaining about being sent to bed early because he was goofing off at the table. Living by the rules is not an appalling requirement. Having consequences when those rules are broken isn’t unheard of. God had mercy on us and sent Jesus so we didn’t all burn in hell when we sin. I think TM’s take on consequences is mild.
Josh, something you did gave someone the impression that you were a sexual predator. That means that you did SOMETHING to put that thought in their mind. Rather than holler about how unfair that is, it might be a good idea to take a step back and look at your actions. That’s a harsh conclusion for someone to arrive at… and frankly, not something that would be written down in someone’s file without great thought. I think you should be even more concerned about how your behavior was perceived if they took the time to TELL YOUR CHURCH about what you did. Big deal going on there, dude. And it isn’t all Teen Mania’s fault.
Anonymous – Wow, after reading your first sentence, I thought this was going to be satire. I’m sorry that your perspective on God’s grace and restoration is so narrow. Kind of like the Pharisees…
Before you jump down Josh’s throat, consider the source of the accusations made against him. They are proven liars. If your future comments continue down this path, they will be deleted.
“Living through consequences for your actions is not equivalent to being labeled.”
How long does a person have to “live through consequences”?
Let’s say I made a mistake a couple of years before the internship. I repented and made things right. Do I need to constantly ask forgiveness? Have a broken heart? Be contrite and sad and lonely and devastated at my sin?
If it’s in the past, and repentance has occurred, and those who were hurt have been made whole, then what is the problem?
Teen Mania wants to keep people locked into the status of their sin forever, long after God has absolved them. It’s sick.
Anon @ 11:26:
TM’s take on consequences is by no means mild. There is no condemnation in Christ, but Ron seems to think he can apply Old Testament-type punishment to people who are covered in the blood of Jesus. What about the story of the adulteress Eric brought up earlier? Jesus did not condemn her.
I think a point needs to be brought up here about sin… in God’s eyes, it’s all the same. So any sin you’ve committed, ever, is in God’s eyes the same as the sin of someone who had sex before marriage. If there is forgiveness and restoration for you, why is there none for them? And I’m talking about worldly consequences too. You haven’t reaped worldly consequences from every sin you’ve ever committed… certainly not to the full extent. So why can’t someone who has had sex before marriage be restored in Christ during this life?
That’s great that you were a virgin who married a virgin. In this day and age that’s a rare and beautiful thing. But honestly, your idea of how you would feel if your spouse was not a virgin is a reflection of your flaws, not theirs. If you married a Christian, that person has been made whole in Christ. If you would be suspicious of them because they had sex before marriage before they even met you (possibly before they even became Christian), that is YOUR problem, not theirs.
For the record, when I got married I was a virgin but my husband was not. I have had zero issues with trust or suspicion with my husband because 1) I know he’s been restored in Christ and 2) He could not possibly be more kind, devoted, or considerate of me, nor more honoring of our marriage in respect to how he treats me vs. other women.
And finally, your remonstrance of Josh is remarkably similar to the slut-shaming techniques of rape apologists… “Well, she must have been asking for it.” That is, of course, a whole different topic, and if you’re the type to believe a woman is to blame for rape if her skirt was too short I’m not going to start that debate with you, but as for Josh’s story, you have no idea the circumstances surrounding his slander. Immediately assuming it is his fault is EXACTLY the type attitude that TM perpetuates (We, as TM, could not possibly make a mistake, so the problem must be with you, the victim). If no one would even listen to his side of the story (of an incident that happened when the two were alone, so his behavior could not be judged by witnesses), then how is it fair that he was labeled that way? Because of the way he squinted his eyes? Because of how he dressed? Please explain how it is ok for them to judge him on an incident with no witnesses without even allowing him to tell his side of the story.
Anon @ 11:26:
TM’s take on consequences is by no means mild. There is no condemnation in Christ, but Ron seems to think he can apply Old Testament-type punishment to people who are covered in the blood of Jesus. What about the story of the adulteress Eric brought up earlier? Jesus did not condemn her.
I think a point needs to be brought up here about sin… in God’s eyes, it’s all the same. So any sin you’ve committed, ever, is in God’s eyes the same as the sin of someone who had sex before marriage. If there is forgiveness and restoration for you, why is there none for them? And I’m talking about worldly consequences too. You haven’t reaped worldly consequences from every sin you’ve ever committed… certainly not to the full extent. So why can’t someone who has had sex before marriage be restored in Christ during this life?
That’s great that you were a virgin who married a virgin. In this day and age that’s a rare and beautiful thing. But honestly, your idea of how you would feel if your spouse was not a virgin is a reflection of your flaws, not theirs. If you married a Christian, that person has been made whole in Christ. If you would be suspicious of them because they had sex before marriage before they even met you (possibly before they even became Christian), that is YOUR problem, not theirs.
For the record, when I got married I was a virgin but my husband was not. I have had zero issues with trust or suspicion with my husband because 1) I know he’s been restored in Christ and 2) He could not possibly be more kind, devoted, or considerate of me, nor more honoring of our marriage in respect to how he treats me vs. other women.
And finally, your remonstrance of Josh is remarkably similar to the slut-shaming techniques of rape apologists… “Well, she must have been asking for it.” That is, of course, a whole different topic, and if you’re the type to believe a woman is to blame for rape if her skirt was too short I’m not going to start that debate with you, but as for Josh’s story, you have no idea the circumstances surrounding his slander. Immediately assuming it is his fault is EXACTLY the type attitude that TM perpetuates (We, as TM, could not possibly make a mistake, so the problem must be with you, the victim). If no one would even listen to his side of the story (of an incident that happened when the two were alone, so his behavior could not be judged by witnesses), then how is it fair that he was labeled that way? Because of the way he squinted his eyes? Because of how he dressed? Please explain how it is ok for them to judge him on an incident with no witnesses without even allowing him to tell his side of the story.
Another comment:
You say, “Protesting consequences sounds like a four-year-old complaining about being sent to bed early because he was goofing off at the table. Living by the rules is not an appalling requirement.”
Sure. A 4-year-old should probably be sent to bed if that’s the rule for disobeying. But he shouldn’t be told that it ruins his chance at a good life, or that he’s always going to be a screw-up. He shouldn’t be sent to bed early every night for the rest of month, should he? Or be denied dinner every night, too? Told he needs to ask forgiveness a year later? Consequences don’t last forever–even sexual ones.
(And if I really wanted to pick on your analogy, I’d make note of the fact that sending a 4-year-old to bed early doesn’t really make sense anyway, when you take into consideration the importance of children’s sleep cycles. But all that proves is that you need to come up with a punishment that is appropriate, not one that you frivolously come up with because it sounds good.)
I was there in 2001 and remember this talk… and I actually recall that Ron was referring to a dating/courting couple having sex with each other before marriage. He theorized that to do so (give in to temptation) would lead both parties to question each other’s level of self-control. If you couldn’t control yourselves before marriage what’s to say you will be able to control yourself afterward (ie, cheat on your spouse)? This is one of the catalysts for the “if you do something sexual while courting, you should break up for a year” rule.
Anon: “I personally think that Ron is right. I’m glad that I married a virgin, as a virgin. I would be suspicious of anyone who had slept around.”
Your spouse is one lucky lady/man to have snagged a peach like you.
For Cal and others who may doubt that this idea of labeling is true of TM, see Anna’s story–Part 1 Part 2
Because Anna was in a situation where she got taken advantage of, she wasn’t allowed to be on the ministry team and was mocked by peers and rejected by leaders. She was the victim and that’s how TM treated her even a year after the fact.
This is because Teen Mania really believes in works-righteousness, not in grace and forgiveness through Jesus. It is a false gospel, Christless from start to finish.
Read Luke 7:36-49. “The one who had the bigger debt forgiven will love more.” Again, Ron Luce’s teaching is not only foreign to the words of Jesus, it’s contradictory to them.
Consider: The Bible says, “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loves the church.” (Ephesians 5:25).
Since Ron believes that one single sin will permanently, irredeemably destroy the relationship between husband and wife forever, regardless of any repentance or forgiveness…
…that must be how he believes Jesus treats the church.
And that’s not just false teaching, that’s blasphemy.
Woah, Eric, what a great connection you’ve made.
Just, woah.
Okay, so this is a loaded subject, no matter what side (and there are about 50) you are coming from.
This is my side.
My husband had a sexual affair with a married woman for five years. She even got pregnant at one point with his child, which she lost early on. I knew this about him before we started dating. We were friends for months before anything romantic happened and we got all of our emotional junk out there on the table during that time. I was very clear that he had some healing to do around the affair. I was also very clear that I would not marry him without doing some major counseling together, and he agreed. I won’t pretend I wasn’t upset by it. I was. I was a 28 year old virgin the day I married him. There was a major part of me that was scared that he would cheat on me. After all, he had an affair with another man’s wife. What would keep him from having an affair inside his own marriage? As much as I tried to suspend judgment, I just couldn’t.
We did 40+ hours of pre-marital counseling and I am so glad that we did. During the process, my husband was able to take full responsibility for the role he played in the affair and I was able to get off my high horse about my virginity. It was something I was proud of, not thankful for. It was not a gift to be given to my precious husband, it was a weapon to wield when I needed to feel GOOD. And I needed to feel good a lot.
One thing that our counselor told me is this: “Carrie, if you believe he is going to cheat on you, he will. You will set up the circumstances to enable that. It’s still his choice if he does it or not, but you will lay the ground work with your belief and subsequent actions that come from that belief. You will find evidence to support that belief and it will destroy your love for him. Believing the opposite will make an affair almost impossible.” A major light went off in my head at that. I realized that we both held tremendous power to create a space for healing and restoration, or the power to repeat past pain and destroy one another in the process. I chose restoration that day. So did my husband.
We have been married for 4+ years. I’ve never been afraid that he will cheat on me. Ever. We’ve had MAJOR issues and suffered greatly in our relationship, but none of it has been related to physical intimacy. I trust him. Fully. I choose him everyday. He trusts and chooses me everyday. We are not perfect. We hurt each other often, but we forgive and grow and transform our pain instead of getting stuck in it…instead of punishing each other or ourselves because we don’t deserve that. Jesus is big enough to love us and forgive us. That’s the kind of love I want to give and to be given back. God sees us all as innocent children, hurting, wounded, brilliant and strong…and extremely tender underneath the armor we have created to survive. His Love strips us of that armor, binds up the broken places inside, and restores our innocence without erasing our scars. This is Love. Ron Luce teaches nothing of this kind of love.
Wow, Carrie. That is an incredibly moving and inspiring testimony. Thank you for sharing.
All I have to say is that I am not married and may possibly never get married.
And I have sex, and . . . . . . . .
I love it!
Its wonderful.
I don’t regret it.
Or feel ashamed.
Or feel like it is wrong.
Or feel judged by God.
There was a time however when I was afraid to even think about sex . . . my mother, my youth group, and the influence of Teen Mania all gave me the message that any sexual activity outside of marriage was sinful and something to be deeply ashamed of. This had a profound effect on the way I thought about sex for many years, and still haunts me to some extent, even though I am working hard to release all of the guilt and shame the Christian culture places around sexuality.
That being said:
I am so glad that at the age of 22, just three short years after the internship, I made a conscious decision to share my sexuality with another person. The sexual adventures with various people following that initial decision have been unforgettable, educational, sensual, meaningful, and usually, super fun! I look forward to a continued sexual vibrancy the rest of my life.
(Who thinks I should write Teen Mania and demand a scarlet letter?!!!)
hahahahaha!!! I shall wear it proudly my love . . . . !!!
Last Anon – Right on!
I don’t understand how anyone who claims Christianity as their faith can justify sex outside of marriage!
You are being deceived if you think sex outside of marriage is permissible!
Last Anon – They may not claim Christianity as their faith. Not everyone here is a Christian.
Well, I claim Christianity. I live with my boyfriend. We own a home together, and we have sex. Stone me. I’m ok with that. I believe that God wants humans in whole, healthy relationships. One’s that reflect His love for His Bride. I may not be married on paper, but in my heart, this is the man I am going to spend my entire life with. I love him, I am committed to him, and I choose him, as he is to me, I am to him.
I agree with Josh “the trust gets broken for what you do WHILE with that person, and NOT before.”
“I don’t understand how anyone who claims Christianity as their faith can justify sex outside of marriage!
You are being deceived if you think sex outside of marriage is permissible!”
Umm why?
“Umm why?”
It is pretty clear in the Word that sex is meant for a husband and wife!
Paul discussed this whole ordeal in 1 Corinthians 7.
I am not saying that if you mess up that there is no forgiveness, I am just saying that to justify acts that are SO against what the Bible states is wrong!
Just a little food for thought: Paul seems to dislikes women and says several very unkind things about them in his teachings. Let us also remember that he strictly believes in celibacy and wishes that we would all remain celibate as the passage makes very clear several times. Paul finds marriage a distinct hardship.
I can understand the irritation with Paul. I recently did a pretty thorough study on this subject (sex outside of marriage) to determine what the Bible really had to say about it.
I have a friend of mine who is living with her boyfriend… and I am the only one of her “Christian” friends who still talk to her, spend time with her (LOVE HER). It may sound very foolish, but I actually went to the Bible because I was desperate to dissect every word in the original Hebrew and Greek to determine if maybe it wasn’t such a big deal (like… maybe our cultural “norms” have been allowed to dictate what is “morally appropriate” etc.) I think it’s worth studying, no matter what side of the “fence” you’re on… and I think that should be a pre-requisite for wanting to argue about whether it’s “ok” for Christians to have sex outside of marriage. Otherwise we’re no better than the Ron Luce’s of the world who express their own opinions under the guise of “What God has to say about this…”
A note about biblical times and marriage, during the time of the bible there was no legal certificate of marriage there was partnerships that began with something as elaborately described in song of Salomon and there was a much quicker was to be married that involved the couple saying I Marry thee three times. Divorce for men was similar as long as it was done in the temple with an outside witness. There wasn’t a huge set of papers. To that end the cultural norms would have me question if by being married I should do so based on a faith with a pastor quietly and consider that grounds enough for sex or if I have to do the legal mumbo jumbo which is really just a contract for land and divorce. Our country or any country doesn’t make you married in the Eyes of God heck even some elaborate ceremony doesn’t make you married in the eyes of God since the official Being married of the bible was just as simple as taking someone into your home and with a witness saying I marry thee three times. What makes you married or with someone in the eyes of God is simply to choose each day for the rest of your life to love honor and cherish the person you are with. You can do that without the paper.
@anon- Historically during biblical time frame a marriage could have happened by two people going in front of ONE witness and saying I marry thee, I marry thee, I marry thee.. to the prospective partner. Given this I just don’t see how anyone can say that the modern definition of Marriage is the only way a man and a woman can be Godly and have sex. Besides that I know people who have had a legal marriage but not a religious one and I have known people who had a religious ceremony but due to specific reasons could not go through the legal marriage. I don’t see either type as less married. I also don’t think listening to Paul’s opinion over the love and forgiveness of Jesus is sound doctrine.
this is anon 11:32
in response to anon 9:33
If this is deception, hand me another apple adam, cause this fruit is tasty!
I find your comment about being branded for committing a sexual sin upsetting. I currently have a great friend who is an HA intern. He before giving his life to Christ did porn. However he is not labeled or looked down on by any of his brothers or leaders (who I have met!) He is simply just like the rest of them some one who fell short (as we all do) and is just chasing after Jesus! Therefore, I find that comment inaccurate and not true! TM teaches healing of sexual impurity, so why would they judge or label those who are victims of it?
The quote by Ron Luce is absolutely irrelevant to the your blog!
Anonymous – So your one friend had a good experience and that invalidates the experience of everyone else who was branded. And you aren’t even an intern – you are speaking from second hand knowledge at best. Please don’t act like you know what you are talking about because you have friends who are interns. Sheesh.
That’s a nice quote Ron. I should also let my wife see this. We’ve been together for about 10 years and yes, we really trust on each other’s decision.
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I think that the attitude at the HA may be different today than it was in the past. I’ve heard all kinds of horror stories from alumni who were at the HA loooong before I was, and I am so grateful that things were different while I was there.
We (the girls) had Shannon Ethridge to look to and be mentored by. She taught our Woman at the Well class and made it clear that we can be completely restored from past sexual sin, because that’s what the blood of Christ does. It cleanses all of our sin away. That doesn’t mean that we escape from the consequences that might have resulted from this sin, but we are completely forgiven.
As for the assumption that sexual sin will forever taint our futures and the way we view our relationships, well… that isn’t the case for everyone. I remember Dave Hasz telling us in one of his talks that once we have repented of our sin, God forgives us completely, wiping the slate clean, and you are no longer obligated to feel guilty about it. If you can’t get over the mistake you’ve made, that isn’t because the Holy Spirit keeps reminding you, it’s because the Devil keeps reminding you so that you will remain crippled by it. If this is the case for you, then you should rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus and pray that the Lord will give you the strength you need to forgive yourself as He has forgiven you. I clearly paraphrased because I graduated 4 years ago and don’t have super-hero memory, but that was the basic gist of what Dave said.
Shannon made this even more clear to us by sharing her own testimony. Before she found restoration in Jesus, she was broken, allowing herself to be used and discarded by man after man. Once she ran to the arms of her Savior though, she was able to discard her past, because the Lord completely washed it all away. Now she is happily married and wasn’t shy about letting us know how great sex is in a loving marriage. She said that she doesn’t feel ashamed or like she’s damaged goods at all, because her husband loves and adores her, and Jesus loves and adores her, and her past no longer matters.
Like I said, I am so glad that I went to the Honor Academy when I did, and not in previous years (not that I would have been able to even if I wanted… too young). It seems that a lot changed before I got there.
In response to the end of this post, No one cant rob me of grace. It is a gift to me through the blood of my savior — It is, however, a terrible crime that Ron is spreading this deception among innocent young Christian people.
The sex talks at TM scared me so much that it hindered me from having sex with my husband. I could not get the warnings out of my head about losing trust, etc. I could not forgive myself for ALMOST having pre-marital sex that I could not enjoy marital sex.
I realize now that it sounds so dumb, I’m embarrassed that the lessons affected me so badly.
“Josh, something you did gave someone the impression that you were a sexual predator.”
Oh…my…goodness….really???
Now granted, I wasn’t there…but have you ever met the girls who think that a guy is hitting on them whenever he so much as LOOKS at them? I have. Don’t judge Josh, you don’t know him, and he was not necessarily at fault. We are all human and we misunderstand each other sometimes.
@Renae, excellent analogy between this situation and women that were “asking” to be raped because their skirts were too short. Right on!