Dave Hasz says “There is no shame in being tired, but there is great shame in falling asleep in class.”
Last time I checked, the only person who uses shame as a tool is the devil. Jesus came to set us free from shame.
Falling asleep in class isn’t even a sin! No wonder interns despair so deeply when they commit an actual sin. If there is great shame in sleeping in class, there must be even greater shame in real sin. (Of course there is no mention about whether driving interns to exhaustion is sin.)
He makes these kinds of comments ALL THE TIME. Other pronouncements I’ve heard or been told
- If you cut across the grass (instead of using sidewalks), then you lack integrity and you are cutting corners in your life.
- If you overeat (i.e. sugar cookies) it will lead you down the path of wicked sin and you’ll end up having sex in the back forty.
- Anyone found to be breaking the rules, no matter how small it may be, is in rebellion. The Word says “rebellion is the sin of witchcraft” – so if you catch someone breaking the rules, point at them and shout “WITCH!”
(For context of this, Dave was initially referring to people wearing shower shoes.)
The teachings of Dave Hasz are riddled with shame, guilt and performance. But if you dare to complain about that, you are blamed for “taking it out of context.”
Give me a break!!!
If you make yourself the total spiritual authority in someone’s life, you must accept the consequences of that authority. If you purposely create an environment where people do not have the freedom to disagree with you (without reprisal), you can’t later blame them for “not having discernment” about your teachings. You took away their right to discernment.
The level of denial at the Honor Academy is truly amazing. No matter how much evidence is presented, Dave continually denies the bad fruits of his teachings by blaming the interns for misunderstanding him.
So I’d like to ask for clarification, how exactly am I misunderstanding you, Dave?
Update: One of the commenters seems to think Dave is joking. I disagree. Here is the video where he shames people who fall asleep in class. It starts at the 4:00 minute mark. (Video has since been taken down)
50 comments:
Can someone clarify for me the shower shoes thing? I’ve seen it referenced on here a couple of times, and I’m not sure I understand what the rule was. Were you not allowed to wear shower shoes in the shower? Why not? What’s the rationale there?
January 20, 2010 7:07 AM
Anonymous said…
No you are required to wear shower shoes. If you don’t, thats when he said (jokingly, I think) you should call them Witch.
January 20, 2010 8:49 AM
Anonymous said…
Dave Hasz never said falling asleep was a sin…it’s just disrespectful. Your taking things really literal. The sugar cookies and grass thing is a joke…since you were an intern you should know that, it’s called humor.
January 20, 2010 9:04 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Anon – I’m glad you took it as humor, but MANY interns took it seriously.
Personally, I don’t think he was joking. He was using humor to get his point across. But there definitely was a point – behavior he doesn’t like is shameful (and therefore sinful).
January 20, 2010 9:46 AM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
I agree with RA. I was there for the grass talk AND the sugar cookies talk. He was referring to it in a lighthearted way, but his message was serious.
And, yes, there is great shame on people who fall asleep in class. RA’s not saying it’s a sin (or even suggesting that Hasz thought it was a sin), he’s addressing the unnecessary shaming.
January 20, 2010 9:51 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Before sin, there was no shame in the world. Shame is a direct result of sin.
To clarify, I definitely do believe that Dave Hasz thinks these things are sin. Otherwise, what is the need for shame?
To find out if this is simple “humor” you need to ask how many interns feel guilty for cutting across the grass or falling asleep in class?
January 20, 2010 9:55 AM
h. said…
my best friend from the internship was telling me the other day that when she first went back home post-TM, she would have freak-outs whenever she thought about stepping on grass of any kind. ridiculous.
regardless of how dave meant it [although i tend to believe he’s very serious about his opinions and interns lining up with them], the problem is how literal the INTERNS are, and how they run with it. Dave may not have been around policing the grass to make sure you didn’t step on it, but the rest of the interns sure as heck would. same thing with the shower shoes, or falling asleep in class, etc–Dave addressed it in class, and the interns took up the charge and did the dirty work for him. that’s a huge reason why most of my TM friends don’t know about this site, or the fact that i post on it–i love them, and i realize that i thought and believed as they do at one point–but at this step in my recovery process, i’m not ready for the shame that i know would be heaped onto my head. i still feel too fragile to knowingly put myself into that situation.
January 20, 2010 10:29 AM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
h, that is EXACTLY how it is.
I, personally, had no real problem with walking on the grass (though I was heavily confronted on the issue), and I would laugh and yell “I LACK INTEGRITYYY ♫” when I did it (mostly at home)… I do know that some of my core mates “confided” in their APs when they did it.
Also, h, I feel the same way. I think I actually want to quote you when I finally come out about this website and how it’s helped me heal. Do you mind?
January 20, 2010 10:40 AM
Diane said…
Ha.
Yeah, I remember all of this. But at the time, I was so legalistic, I just ate it all up – I thrived in this environment.
Years later, after living in New York for four years for university and hanging out with much more relaxed Christians (who would hang out at bars! And drink ALCOHOL! *gasp!*), a lot of this fell away.
I still kind of chuckle when I re-tell how I lost my honor ring; it was either on a night I went to this evening of people sharing their art, where I got a little tipsy on wine and possibly left it in the bathroom – or it was when I went to have lunch with friends the next day and got a little tipsy on margaritas and left it in the bathroom.
Either way, I lost my honor while I was drunk.
I’m quite sure Dave Hasz would frown upon that.
January 20, 2010 11:32 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
h – great point. Dave sets the tone for the internship. If he even says it once, it pretty much becomes law. And he can’t fault interns for that when he says (in this same video) that you must submit completely to your authority or you are not submitting to God.
January 20, 2010 11:59 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
h – I think its perfectly natural and legitimate for you to not reveal your current convictions to your TM friends. Part of the recovery process is talking about your experience with “safe” people. That means people who will not shame or judge you…just wanted to let you know that I affirm you in that.
January 20, 2010 12:02 PM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
During my intern year, I specifically remember Dave Hasz saying that he never mixes his words. He said that he thinks about what he’s going to say before he says it, and so he will never say something that he doesn’t mean because (and another scripture out of context!) “words have the power to bring life and death”. It’s like Proverbs 21:18…or 18:21….something like that! Can’t remember the exact scripture!
Nunquam: I actually remember hearing someone say that! Haha! Not sure if it was you during our year or someone else, but i remember thinking “wow that person is on the road to recovery being able to proclaim that in public!” hahaha.
RA and h: I completely agree that it’s natural for you not to tell your HA friends about this – heck, only a handful of people know who I am and really what I went through at the minute. I’m not in a position where I am prepared to take more spiritual abuse and “righteous” anger due to my comments and approval on here – i’ve already been through a lot and I can’t take it again, and it’s took me quite a while to come to that place where I could truly forgive people for it and love them again.
January 20, 2010 12:36 PM
h. said…
nunquam–i totally don’t mind at all. i mean, that’s what we’re all here for right…to help one another wade through this mess and heal?
RA–in the movie “Remember the Titans”, one of the characters utters a line that has stuck with me, especially since my time at TM–“attitude reflects leadership, captain.” we respected, looked up to, and idolized dave. it’s no wonder interns become little sargeants for “Jesus”, marching around making sure everyone does what Dave thinks they should do. how different would the internship look if Dave, in humility, acknowledged the hurts, asked forgiveness for his sins, and admonished the interns to seek JESUS–not salvation through works? [i recognize that Dave does preach salvation through God’s grace…but i believe it’s a mixed message that becomes lost when drenched in sermons based on “the honor code”, accountability charts, the aura of a statesman, and other extra-biblical doctrines.]
unrelated–thank you for that affirmation; it means a lot.
January 20, 2010 1:52 PM
Curious George said…
h. Spot on. Whether intended or not, Dave creates an army of mini me’s. I was one of them and I regret it immensely. I remember as interns we would call a short cut through the grass a “path of less integrity.” In college after the HA I would never cut through the grass at school even while late. So stupid…
I as well look forward to the day when I can share my experiences with the ones I love most. I still feel bad for being deceived, like I wasn’t a strong enough person to recognize it. I wish I could see you all in person and talk about our shared experiences.
January 20, 2010 6:34 PM
Alum2000 said…
As I watched this I remembered something else that still bugs me about the HA and it’s teachings. It seems like there’s an incredible “me-focus” here (and elsewhere throughout the HA). Whatever happened to the least being greatest? This teaching seems to be all about trying to be the man (or woman) up front. I don’t think this sort of attitude can be supported by anything Jesus taught or lived throughout his life. Yes, God raises up leaders to lead, but throughout the Bible, God consistently calls those who have a humble, servants heart not those looking to be #1. Why is this not mentioned here?
January 20, 2010 7:11 PM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
Alum2000 – There’s also a scripture i NEVER heard quoted whilst at the HA. Jesus says “Don’t let anyone call you leader (master, teacher), for you have only one leader (master, teacher) that is the Messiah. But the greatest among you will be your servant” Matthew 23:10-11. Depending on which translation you use depends whether you will read leader, master or teacher.
Curious George – I agree there. I’d love to meet with you guys and have a real talk about all of our experiences of the HA. Maybe some day it will be possible for us “wicked sinners who are full of pride and unforgiveness” to meet up!
January 20, 2010 7:33 PM
Anonymous said…
To Diane–while I agree that HA’s teachings are legalistic–I find it sad that you think getting drunk is funny..
January 20, 2010 8:12 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Curious George – being deceived is nothing to feel bad or guilty about. Think about it – you were probably 18 or 19 years old. You were put in an authoritarian environment with the judgment of God constantly held over you and without meaningful access to outside influences. You really weren’t given the tools to be able to discern and your hunger for God was exploited. I don’t blame my 18 year-old self for being taken in, as I know I didn’t have the skills or life experience to do otherwise at that age. Hope that helps.
And its funny, I was just thinking today how it would be cool if we could have our own version of an alumni reunion. It would be so healing and freeing to be able to discuss these things with other people that truly understand.
January 20, 2010 8:54 PM
Anonymous said…
RA– I agree, a ‘TM survivor alumni reunion’ would be neat–would you accept dismissed interns–who, by that term, do not qualify as ‘alumni’?
What about family members of those alumni-dismissed or graduated–who have been so affected by the ex-interns’ experiences and healing process?…
January 20, 2010 9:50 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Anon – YES!!! Dismissed interns would be extremely welcome, as well as parents and family members.
In fact, I’d really like to hear from some family members of current/former interns. There are lots of stories about how the intern comes back and is totally different and how it affects the family – would love someone to write to me with firsthand knowledge of that – to give support to other parents/family members.
January 20, 2010 9:53 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Just to add to this…Being dismissed from the HA is associated with such great shame – I truly, truly feel for those who have been dismissed. I’m sure its easy to feel as if God has rejected you when you are in that situation. Perhaps they need the greatest healing of all?
January 20, 2010 9:55 PM
Moriah said…
i second our own re union!. We could have a big potluck in a park somewhere and stand around barefoot on the grass singing seventies worship songs. After we break bread together, we could take a nap under the trees, as the cool breeze plays with the patches of sunlight filtering through the leafy greens of summer. Ill bring the sugar cookies!!!!
January 20, 2010 9:58 PM
Anonymous said…
Moriah–bring your sugar cookies for sure–maybe we could have the potluck on the back forty…lol…
January 20, 2010 10:10 PM
Anonymous said…
Moriah – cool idea. It reminds me of something I forgot about…during my intern year some friends and I went to a Kevin Prosh worship concert held at a park in Tyler. Everything was great until he sang “Brown Eyed Girl” near the end. I was appalled and offended (as only an intern can be) that he sang a song with the lyrics “making love in the green grass.” Ha. I was LIVID at him and all the “Christians” who were supporting him…sheesh
January 20, 2010 10:45 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Okay, let me say that I love the idea of a Namby Pamby Kum-bay-ah reunion.
Seriously. I’m in.
We just all have to have those “Hi, I’m ____” stickers filled in with our pseudonymn. It can be just like AA, but ALUMNI Anonymous! Or, Abuse Anonymous, to be more all-inclusive. Hmm.
January 20, 2010 10:59 PM
z said…
“You took away their right to discernment.”
Thank you for articulating something that I felt was off, but haven’t been able to pin-point.
On a mission trip I did with TM my right to discernment was taken away. It left me so messed up, so confused, so depressed and so shamed. The leaders asked me to do something I did not feel right about. I was unable to follow one of their rules in good conscience, yet felt so wrong about NOT obeying the rule. It caused so much inner turmoil, I came very close to killing myself on the mission field. No matter what decision I made, felt so guilty and so wrong, I could find no inner peace.
That was a long time ago and I thought I had worked through most of the junk by this point, but in that phrase, you pin-pointed something that felt so bang on. TM took away my right to discernment! That’s why I felt so messed up inside!
It is so freeing just to have the words to express what was wrong with my TM experience. That’s something I love about your blog. You are articulate, brazen and well written. You are able to tell things how they are. Every now and then you write something that is a eureka moment for me. Thank you!
I want to write my story for your blog someday, but my experience was kind of unique. I have never shared my full experience or feelings with family and am afraid someone I know might identify me in the story once it is floating in cyber space. . .
January 20, 2010 11:11 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Z – I would like to hear your story. I don’t need to publish if if you are not comfortable with that – but, sometimes it just helps to write it out and send it to a sympathetic ear…or, eye. 🙂
January 20, 2010 11:35 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Nunquam – love those pseudonyms. lol. We are all alumni of abuse, so I think we could still call it Alumni Anonymous.
January 20, 2010 11:38 PM
Anonymous said…
If we held the reunion in Texas, you know what would be really fun? Toilet-papering the campus. ha!
January 21, 2010 12:16 AM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
Last Anon – You wicked sinner for even thinking that!….but i LOVE that idea! haha! 😛
But I think that our own AA would be awesome. Maybe we should start an organisation to help people that have been in any kind of spiritually abusive environment?
It might be tough for some of us to come to the meeting though. I mean, some of us aren’t even in the US
January 21, 2010 6:51 AM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
You know what we SHOULD do?
We should definitely start up a chatroom. Or, um, something. Set up a time that works with all timezones (though, 07, you’re right; outside of the US might be hard… but we can do it!).
I know that it’s not quite as great as in person, but it’s a start. And I was definitely thinking about how much fun it’d be to have it in Texas. Maybe even have a barbeque and invite current interns. And just love on them! Make them feel like a part of the family. Help them see that just cause we realize that TM is spiritually abusive, it doesn’t mean that we’re bitter and horrible, haha. Maybe just give them the URL as they’re leaving?
I dunno, at the same time I think we should be sensitive to those who were especially abused and can’t even be near campus without post-trauma symptoms.
Just my thoughts.
January 21, 2010 9:04 AM
Diane said…
OK. So first of all, an alternative reunion sounds wonderful. Me and some of my ex-intern friends have actually discussed the possibility before.
And secondly, to whoever the “Anonymous” was that chose to make a comment on my comment – I didn’t think I’d have to write any disclaimers, especially since this is a post about shame (and since Jesus was mocked by the Pharisees as a drunkard and a glutton), but here goes:
On both occasions, I only had one drink. That is enough to get me tipsy (I’m a lightweight). Yes, I’ve had more on other occasions, but that wasn’t the point.
The point was that, although I was barely tipsy, I lost my honor ring (which actually made me quite sad at the time, and I went back to both locations to search for it, to no avail). Yet, at the same time, I had this picture in my mind of Dave Hasz finding out about it and completely blowing everything out of proportion, condemning me as a drunkard and a sinner.
So thanks for falling right in line.
January 21, 2010 9:23 AM
Anonymous said…
Diane—I am so so sorry for my post–you’re right about me falling right in line–I’m still healing from those people at TM and have rampant alcoholism in my family–please forgive me–it was harsh and uncalled for..
January 21, 2010 9:53 AM
Diane said…
I’m sorry, too. I thought about what I said – and re-read what I wrote above – and realized I wrote more in anger than in love.
Alcoholism runs in my family as well, so I don’t take getting drunk lightly. It was actually a huge thing for God to open me up to drinking – hard to explain, but it was freeing.
I think my first post was an attempt at being humorous in a sort of deflection. Because there still is a little bit of lingering shame, thanks to conditioning, about the circumstances surrounding how my ring was lost. And I wasn’t very clear that I’d only had one drink on each occasion.
And the second was like I was jumping down your throat for making logical assumptions about the things I’d left out. Looking back, it’s easy to see how you came to the conclusion you did.
Please forgive me.
I don’t need to posture on here – or anywhere else, for that matter – to try to make people accept me. There’s no need to either be the “Teen Mania Super Christian” to fit in with interns OR the “Totally Freed Anti-TM Rebellious Former Intern.” I should just be myself.
(Which is what I’m trying to do, and why I actually use my real name, but I’m still learning.)
So thanks for that little lesson. 🙂
January 21, 2010 10:19 AM
Anonymous said…
Diane–it’s awesome that you realize you don’t need to posture to try to be accepted–we ex-terns (as well as all Christians for that matter) need to learn that–we are loved by Christ no matter what and don’t need to–nor can we earn His love in approval–that was done at the Cross.
I pray you are freed from the lingering shame they heaped on you–and am praying that for myself and all others too.
I’m a computer dork, so I can’t figure out how to post under my name instead of ‘anon’…
January 21, 2010 10:33 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Diane & Anonymous – what a beautiful picture of reconciliation, acceptance and working through our emotional triggers. Thanks!
January 21, 2010 10:40 AM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
Last Anon – underneath the comment box there’s a thing that says “Comment as:” and then a drop down selection box. Select “Name/URL” type your name in the “Name” box, and then “Continue” and “Post Comment”
🙂
You guys are a testament to this blog and the healing that follows from it 🙂
January 21, 2010 10:40 AM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
I think it’s very freeing to read these last few posts.
I myself come from a very addicted family (addicted to like everything; my dad had hardcore drugs pretty much forced onto him when he was VERY young). He’s since been set free from that, and raised us up in a very conservative way, in an attempt to shelter us from that life.
That, coupled with my two years at TM, have made me very anti-alcohol. I personally will still probably never drink, BUT it gives me a lot of encouragement when I see people who still love the Lord and have been set free of that legalistic mindset of “ALCOHOL IS TOTALLY EVIL FOR REALS”.
I don’t know. I hope that that made sense. In case I didn’t make it clear, I’m NOT docking you. I just find it encouraging.
January 21, 2010 10:44 AM
Curious George said…
Thanks RA. I appreciate the encouragement.
January 21, 2010 11:32 AM
Wanting Healing from God beacuse of the HA said…
January 20, 2010 8:49 AM
Anonymous said…Dave Hasz never said falling asleep was a sin…it’s just disrespectful. Your taking things really literal. The sugar cookies and grass thing is a joke…since you were an intern you should know that, it’s called humor.
look here im not here to condemn or anything like that, but you are wrong anonymous, i just left the HA about a couple of hours ago and quit because of the mental and spiritual and physical abuse of that place and by the way they do inforc the rule about not walking on thegrass and they will call you out on it and tell you how horrible it is to walk on the grass i know this because they did it to me and there punishment for walking on the grass is making you do pushups for it,m so i hate to brake it to you anonymous but you are wrong about that being a joke, its not called humor its called abuse get it right please, oh yeah and the sugar cookie thing, my CA told his “authiritative fiure” and confessed literlly to eating a cookie during gauntlet week, that is in all honesty, and the falling asleep in class i wouldnt know because i never got caught LOL!!! all though i did fall asleep all he time because of the exhaustion that they put you through and the lack of food that they feed you and the loack of sleep they allow you, i got on average if i was lucky enough to get 3-4 hours of sleep each night and there days were constantly going on there was no breaks for the 20 hours that i was awake it was all go no stop, it is abuse and i hate to say that but it is true,
thank you
February 5, 2010 3:59 PM
Diane said…
Hey Wanting Healing –
wow. You left TODAY?!
You’re probably going to go through a whole mess of conflicting emotions in the next few days (months? years?).
But take heart: you will find support here as God takes you through the healing process. We’re here for you <3
February 5, 2010 6:34 PM
w said…
to Wanting Healing…wow too–you left today? First of all, it looks and sounds like you need some serious sleep…
Then know that you can rest in the loving arms of our Lord, who is our refuge and strength. Our prayers are with you and we are here to support you as you peel away the layers of emotions and confusion of what you have just been through.
February 5, 2010 9:12 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
I agree with W, Healing… get some rest!
Also, allow me to comment on your absolute bravery for being able to even acknowledge the abusive nature of TM after mere HOURS of your departure. Bravo. Seriously.
I’m considered a very rare case, and it still took me months. I am VERY impressed. I’m praying for you 🙂
February 5, 2010 10:15 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Wanting Healing – thanks for writing. Glad to hear you are getting free from TM. Get some rest. RELAX for a while and don’t feel guilty about it. We look forward to getting to know you.
February 5, 2010 10:23 PM
Wanting Healing from God because of the HA said…
Thank you all for your support it means so much to me 🙂 i love it when people are so loving through the eyes of Jesus and are so caring, you all truely have a place with Jesus, thank you again and i too look forward to getting to know you all, if you would like my email adress so that we can email and get to know each other as brothers and sisters in Christ that would be awsome just let me know 🙂 i love my brothers and sisters:) in Christ all of them and all of my enemies too even though i probably dont have any 😛 i would love nothing mor ethan too add to this family that i have in Jesus:D:D:D:D
February 7, 2010 7:05 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Healing- I think you’re pretty rad! If you want, you can email RA and have him set you up with other people through email so you don’t have to publish it on the forum for the whole world to see… partially for your protection; it’s just one less way that random people at TM can try to rebuke you 😛
Not that you should never talk to them again, but something I’ve had to learn (the hard way), is that when you’re recovering from an abusive environment, you have to be very careful about who you’re vulnerable with. I tried to be open with my core when I left, and even with what I’ve learned about the ministry, and their cut-and-paste brainwashed responses broke me. It’s hard for sure, so be careful, okay? 🙂
I’d love to chat with you through email. I probably know a lot of the people that you knew.
RA, can you hook us up? I’ll send you my email address.
February 7, 2010 10:38 PM
Anonymous said…
Sugar cookies and sex on the back 40 sounds fun! What is all the shame Christians carry around sexuality and sensuality? My goodness! The Bible is chock full of sexuality, especially as it tells stories within the context of the surrounding cultures, which had a variety of sexual norms according to their time and place in history.
February 8, 2010 3:26 AM
Ex-Intern Aug 07 said…
RA I’d like to get in contact with Wanting Healing too – I’ll email you! 🙂
February 8, 2010 12:58 PM
Wanting Healing from God because of the HA said…
definitely that would be awsome you all:) i would love to email you all. i have no idea how to get in touch with RA. is there any possible way that one of you amazing people could explian it 😛 im not very computer literate:P lol!!!! iso look forward to meeting all of you amazing people:) thank you again:)
February 24, 2010 4:08 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Wanting Healing – you can email me at recoveringalumni at hotmail.com.
February 24, 2010 4:30 PM