Sydney’s Story: ESOAL

It sounds like you gave it all you had. I would say you finished your own ESOAL regardless of the language change from TM. And sweetie it is completely despicable that a facilitator said those things to you and worse that your CA made you feel like you were less for having rung the bell. God sees inside and knows the love and care that you had. Love held Jesus on that cross and he was holding you and your platoon through hell. So much grace and love be with you!

Thank you for your story, Sydney. You have highlighted many of the concerns alumni have about ESOAL. We have argued on this site that there needs to be some kind of mental screening for interns who do this event and your history of verbal abuse and lack of skills to deal with it are a perfect example. Ron Luce often describes being verbally abused as a child. How would he cope with doing ESOAL if the facilitators told him he was stupid and worthless (both of which were said to him by his father)? Ron, of all people, should have been your defender here.

I’m so sorry, Sydney.
Thank you for sharing.

I hope that you continue to experience healing.

This isn’t just sick and twisted, this is Satanic. (“The accuser of the brethren,” isn’t he?)

Satan, not Jesus, is the one who tells people they are worthless because they aren’t good enough. They are of their father the devil and their deeds and words are like his.

The next time somebody says “Oh, but ESOAL is voluntary” it’s going to take a serious clamp on my tongue to keep from cussing them out.

Also, Sydney, you are braver and stronger than any of those cowards who lie and deny that this blasphemy is real. Thanks for speaking the truth.

“the fact that any child of God walks away from it thinking that they are worth less or loved less than someone else, is an insult to what Christ did for us on the cross.”

THIS!

standing ovation GC
this is the main point i tell anyone asking me why i dont move on and why i dont i stop talking about this. Because of that statment right there.
thanks for sharing that.

MM

Are you saying the ESOAL concept, goals, and techniques were inaccurately and/or incompletely represented to you before you chose to participate in an event? That you had no knowledge that mental and physical harassment is the major technique employed, nor any examples of what to expect? I find that unlikely. Facilitators are exactly like DIs in Marine boot camps. They are role-playing in a training exercise. They are exactly like actors in a play doing their best to convince you they are the character they portray themselves to be. They are doing things they would never even think of doing to you outside the context of the exercise. ESOAL is a simulated persecution that you, being of supposedly sound mind, voluntarily agreed to undergo beforehand. I suggest you assume the responsibility for your choice. If Teen Mania representatives misrepresented the program to you, made mistakes during the exercise that were not acknowledged and rectified, or otherwise acted irresponsibly, then talk to them about it. If they did not, why are you spreading a bad report about it?

David, it doesn’t matter 1 iota whether or not they disclosed SOME of what ESOAL is about. The fact of the matter is that Sydney disclosed very real emotional hurts on her ESOAL survey and they were used against her!

I’m sorry, but where is Jesus in that? Where does Jesus ever use someone’s vulnerabilities against them.

Sydney was emotionally abused prior to ESOAL and to then use similar language in ESOAL only further traumatizes her.

THIS is the reason I am adamantly against ESOAL and TM. I don’t give two shits about the doctrine at TM, or the fact that I wasted a year of my life, or paid thousands of dollars for a cult-like experience, or am still paying thousands of dollars for therapy.

I am against TM for the blantant abuse that occurs and the people that continue to justify said abuse.

“Well, if you wouldn’t have gotten drunk your inhibitions wouldn’t have been lowered and therefore you wouldn’t have been raped.”

I do NOT stand for blaming the victim of abuse for their abuse. Sure, if circumstances were different we could have probably prevented it, but that doesn’t make the victim culpable for their abuse and the abuser innocent.

Sydney, I am truly sorry that you had to experience this. My heart broke reading your story and I really wish that I could take your hand and really pluck out all of the negative and abusive words that have been spoken to you.

David – Stanford Prison Experiement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

I tried to post this earlier, but it didn’t go thru…First, thanks Sydney for being vulnerable and sharing your story. This story highlighted many of the complaints alumni have about ESOAL. I was particularly upset by the fact Sydney disclosed a background of verbal abuse and no one in leadership considered that should disqualify her from participating. Ron Luce often describes how he was verbally abused by his father, being called worthless and stupid. How would he deal with going thru ESOAL and having those words hurled at him? Ron Luce, of all people, should want to protect victims of abuse from further abuse…

Jesus said, Come to me and I will give you rest!

There was no (Terms and conditions apply) section to that. He asked us to love our neighbors as ourselves. He did not say to do so only when you are not trying to force them to continue through their hurts.

The blood of Jesus covered Sydney’s hurts. Once they were covered it was not up to any ministry to make her relive them in a fashion. Only God is to come into your secret place and work through your hurts.

Remember when Jesus took his disciples up the hill and then made them repeatedly roll down the hill so that they would learn to deal with the emotional issues that would arise after he ascended to heaven? NO

Remember when Jesus fed stale bread to the 5000 and told them it would make them stronger believers? NO

Seriously?!?!?

We as believers absolutely must not employ the world’s strategies to our spiritual life. God has provided to us everything that we need for life and Godliness. What? Is His Word not sufficient to transform hearts and lives? Does the Holy Spirit not live in each believer helping us in this life?

I have been through ESOAL. I rang out. I did not feel condemned for it. HOWEVER, I fail to see how ESOAL is of any benefit in helping believers grow and mature. Teen Mania has lost its course.

Until this year (thanks RA) the details of ESOAL were a long kept secret- interns and involved staff are not allowed to talk about it. TM is not the military- who use those types of experiences for a very specific purpose- AND most interns are young, right out of high school, vulnerable, afraid to disappoint their supporters who are paying thousands to send them there AND a lot of times completely heartbroken that this organization that was so respected in their minds from an ATF has turned into a nightmare situation.

It reminds me of the legalities in a child sexual abuse case- if the child is underage it doesnt matter that it was consensual (voluntary)- it is still abuse!
Im not saying there is sexual abuse but I do think the interns in this case are underrage to be expected to know the medical, emotional, physical ramificaitons of ESOAL BUT ther adults there are not- they are responsible and should be held accontable!

David- I appreciate your response. The ESOAL concept was explained very well to me. The tactics, however, were not. Nor was it ever stated that the information I gave in the second part of the ESOAL survey, where I described the abuse I had experienced, would be used in such a way to “stretch” me. This part of the survey was separate from the rest, and specifically focused on where we were emotionally and was only supposed to be shared with the licensed therapist on campus.
Now, I’m not saying that the facilitators sat around a campfire and dug through our surveys saying “how can we make them miserable.” I am saying however, that the information I gave, trusting that it would help them use sound judgement in how to facilitate me, was neglected. I’m assuming you have some experience with the Honor Academy. So I would also assume you know the secrecy that surrounds this LTE. I did not know that I would be facing these things in ESOAL. Physically? Yes, I knew it would be challenging. It’s not so much the physical aspect that bothers me, though that was the ultimate reason I rang out.
I gave the information I did with confidence that it would be used to protect me from facilitation that would be detrimental. That was not the case.

I made all of this clear in my exit eval. I did receive a response. However, I do agree with you that merely posting a story here would not be the biblical way to go about resolving my complaint. At the same time I wrote this story, I started drafting an email to Dave Hasz and will continue to seek resolution by communicating with him, if possible.

My reasoning behind sharing my story here is to hopefully prevent someone else from going through what I did.

Everyone else- Thank you. Your encouragement lifts my spirit 🙂

Sydney, You are an amazing child of God, thank you for sharing.

It’s stories like this that I swear Ron needs to read. As someone who daily suffers with back pain, to the point that I can’t finish brushing my teeth without immense (sp?) pain, I can sympathize with Sydney. Cold, wet, and laying on hard surfaces are NOT good for a person who is on pain meds and seeing specialists to try to get better. That ALONE should have dq’d her from ESOAL. This is further coupled with the fact that she went through abuse before the HA should have further more DQ’d her from ESOAL.

Sydney, you said, “Now, I’m not saying that the facilitators sat around a campfire and dug through our surveys saying “how can we make them miserable.”” Sadly, I would NOT be surprised if the exact opposite is true. That they do look over the second portion of the survey, and use that against you. If I had done ESOAL, something that would have been on my phobia section is that I’m DEATHLY afraid of snakes. Had they introduced a snake into my ESOAL experience, I would have rung out. To me, it’s one and the same. It’s called psychological torture. I hope you are able to get better both physically and mentally.

(minor edit on my part)

I meant to say I did not receive a response regarding what I stated in my exit eval.

whoops!

Josh- thank you. Yes, back pain is.. well, a pain. And does affect everything you do. I’m sorry you suffer from it and hope you find some sort of treatment that works for you.
Thank you for your insights, they are very much appreciated.

Sydney- Thanks for sharing your story with us. You are so unique and beautiful and irreplaceable. No one should have EVER subjected you to that. God wants to heal your heart and is supporting you all the way. I pray that who you are as precious & pure in His eyes becomes the consuming reality of your thoughts and heart. Thank you.

Sydney, I perceive you are not grinding axes here. That is very good. I also perceive ESOAL is as responsibly and ethically administered as TM believes is humanly possible, based upon the experiences of my youngest child a year ago and in the past month. He was not blind-sided by any of the stressors he encountered. It may be TM needs to be far more selective about accepting volunteers, as there are issues of liability involved. Were you tested on your knowledge of ESOAL prior to your acceptance into the event; i.e., did TM exercise due diligence regarding your soundness of mind to choose to participate? I expect changes that can be cost-effectively implemented to improve the program might be awaiting discovery and I believe TM is all ears to hear of them. BTW, Anonymous, most Marine recruits are fresh out of high school, too. Oh, and I commend this site for publishing my opinions.

David- No, there was no test to “rule you out” or anything before you joined. As I said, there was a survey we completed that focused more on how they could challenge us during the event. They tried to keep everything as mysterious as possible. This is done, to my understanding, to make the event more stretching. Which I can understand, if the interns participating do not know what to expect, it adds on a level of anticipation/anxiety that definitely stretches you emotionally. So there was no test to see if we were aware of the techniques or evolutions that would be implemented.
I’m glad to hear that your child had an experience that did not hinder their growth in any way, I truly am. And I hope they learned a lot while at the Honor Academy as I did.

I do hope that there are changes in the future, and trust that God will resolve this in a way that edifies his children and glorifies his name.

Again, I do appreciate your insight. 🙂

Layne, I finally made the time to consider the Stanford Prison Experiment. I think they could have avoided the unforeseen results if they had studied the concepts, goals, and administration of military boot camps beforehand. It is unfortunate for those involved that they were re-inventing a well-known wheel. Marine DIs are highly skilled facilitators selected with great caution and monitored continuously for conformance to the rules of engagement for each training exercise. The responsible approach the military demands for these organizations is what prevents the outworking of the Sin Nature observed in the Stanford Prison Experiment. On the other hand, however, TM utilizes facilitators who have recognized the truth of the Sin Nature and have purposed to keep their’s crucified at all times. This surely must offset the temptation to go above and beyond what is stipulated by TM in performing their roles in the exercises.

David,

My dad worked in an actual prison as a recreation leader, and had lots of time to see how real prison guards treat the prisoners. Even the Christian ones relished their power. One guard… who went to church every Sunday… pushed a man down a flight of stairs while his hands were cuffed behind his back. Later he claimed it was an “accident,” but witnesses said otherwise. Too bad the witnesses were fellow prisoners… no one believed them. Hmm, sounds familiar.

Desiring to keep the sin nature “crucified” isn’t the same as receiving real, skilled training and being continuously monitored by experts. Studying the concepts, goals, and administration of training is not the same thing as receiving the actual training. If the military sees fit to keep such an exercise so rigorously controlled, and if so many of the men and women trusted to the real job (prison guard) still end up as totalitarian power-hungry monsters, maybe it doesn’t belong in the civilian realm “for fun.”

Prisons seldom have the same financial resources as military boot camps, plus their results are usually not as well-considered. I did indicate I understand the nature of corruption–I am not naive; however, you are effectively saying corruption always beats Godliness. The military can afford to closely monitor the conduct of boot camps, the prison systems cannot (although the Federal prison systems are in a different league). Does anyone know just how much training facilitators receive? Does everyone here except me maintain ESOAL cannot be administered responsibly? If so, do you also submit it cannot produce any good fruit of any quantity? If so to that, too, then by what authority do you intend to terminate it?

David,

It is my understanding that there is not a lengthy training process for the facilitators. The facilitators are GIs, staff, or alumni. They go through a 1/2 – 1 day training on the purpose of ESOAL and their job responsibilities. That is about the extent of the training.

Does that qualify them? Hell no!

RA, last time I checked, the Holy Spirit was still assisting people into becoming the Image of The LORD via their interactions with other people; i.e., steel on steel sharpening one another. But to satisfy your point, I will amend my question to, “If so, do you also submit it cannot be utilized by the Holy Spirit to produce any good fruit of any quantity?

Shannon, perhaps you would be satisfied if TM emphasized the concerns some have that undergoing ESOAL has not been helpful, and even induced serious mental dysfunction, for multiple participants, as seen from the viewpoint of those oarticipants, and that TM required prospective participants to perform rigorous due diligence of the program prior to applying for admission.

Shannon, your right sort of….the majors, captains & lieutenants (the main leadership) definitely go through a very lengthy training process that actually lasts for 2+ months however the facilitators go through a day of training as you stated above.

The thing about it though is that in the last couple of years, the facilitators haven’t played as much of a role as they used to. Now all the interns are broken into companies that have a major, captain and lieutenant over them. the major is the decision maker and anyone that wants to talk to interns in that company must go through the major first. I was a major for 4 years and I can tell you that more recently this type of leadership structure has virtually cut the stupid & pointless facilitation that many of us had to deal with in years past.

hope that insight helps, if you have any questions that I might be able to answer, let me know

also, I’m not sure if anybody actually knows this but there is an inside process before hand that looks at people with issues that are known….now obviously some people fall through the cracks if they don’t make their personal issues known to people. Those things are talked about and discussed and there are 2 counselors that walk around to the people on their list to check in and see how their doing and to make sure everything is good. Obviously this is not a catch all but at least theres something in place though it probably needs to be perfected a bit

@David– There’s an old saying: “If we had some ham, we could have some ham and eggs if we had some eggs.” There’s an older saying: “By their fruits you will know them.” Serious mental dysfunction is not a good fruit, last I checked.

@Major– Two questions. 1) Why prevent people from talking to interns? 2) How does this faux-military “leadership structure” fit with Jesus’ model of leadership as taught in Matthew 20:25-28 and Matthew 23:8-12?

“…the majors, captains & lieutenants (the main leadership) definitely go through a very lengthy training process that actually lasts for 2+ months…”

I would like to know how many hours of training this entails.

I attend a Burning Man event every year, and before we are allowed to enter the event (ie, campsite) we are asked to sign a waiver that states, “You voluntarily assume any risk of serious injusry or death by attending this event.” I suggest TM have participants of ESOAL sign a similar waiver.

Former Major- that’s interesting. In 2007 when I did ESOAL, I listed emetophobia (fear of vomitting) as my biggest struggle/fear/hindrance/etc. And I made sure that everyone knew it (unfortunately, there was a girl in my core who utilized this and made gaggy noises when she was mad at me, lol).

I received no counseling, and nobody said anything about a counselor checking in on people. Now this isn’t the BIGGEST issue somebody could have, but I’d think they’d try to prepare someone who has a fear of seeing people vomit, for seeing people vomit.

I’m not mad that I didn’t receive this counseling, as it were, I’m just kind of shocked that apparently it existed and nobody knew about it.

David,

The Holy Spirit can use all things for good as stated in Romans 8:28. Yes, lessons can be learned from negative experiences. But does that mean we should induce negative experiences because of the potential to “produce good fruit of any quantity?” If that is a correct statement, then parents should also be able to stage abusive situations with their children. If they don’t mean it and are just trying to prepare their children for real life, and their children agree to do it, it’s ok, right? Or what about staging a rape situation for a young woman? These are, of course, gross exaggerations, but it is well known and documented that ESOAL uses emotionally and physically abusive brainwashing techniques. If you think it’s ok for TM to use those abusive techniques to potentially create good fruit, where is the line drawn for others? Can you picture Jesus agreeing with or causing either of the two examples I mentioned? If not, then why is ESOAL exempt?

layne you asked how many hours….I would estimate a total of maybe 48-50 some hours maybe….there were 2 days that it was all day so I’m not 100% sure.

some of you asked about the “prevent people from talking to interns” statement and what that means is basically, it eliminates the pointless facilation and yelling….I remember when I was an intern in 2003, everything we did that required facilitation was COMPLETELY pointless…especially CA roads.

anyway, hope that helps

So, Former Major, what does this 48-50 hour training entail?

Simulated persecution involving minors is widely considered to be out of bounds, is it not? Age constraints are inherently misleading. The number of days a person has been breathing should not be the metric. Demonstrated maturity including successful assumption of ever more heavy responsibilities is what counts. If sufficiently mature individuals investigate ESOAL and make informed decisions to participate, what gives you the “right” to make that life option unavailable to them because you think it could possibly do them harm? They, too, acknowledge it could do them harm. Do you think their competency is ipso facto inferior to yours because they are willing to assume that risk? Why do you want to restrict the liberty of other people?

David,

Why do hazing laws exist? Do you think such laws should not exist?

When did anti-hazing laws come into existence? I believe the public’s negative perception of the general administration of such events grew to the point that politicians saw an opportunity to gain approval from their constituents. Such legislative initiatives one hundred years earlier would have instead cost the politicians constituent approval, as it would have been generally perceived as meddling in the liberties of citizens electing to undergo the events. There were already laws on the books addressing most of the excesses that merely needed to be enforced.

“Remember when Jesus took his disciples up the hill and then made them repeatedly roll down the hill so that they would learn to deal with the emotional issues that would arise after he ascended to heaven? NO”

ha! amazing! thanks for that!

“It is my understanding that there is not a lengthy training process for the facilitators. The facilitators are GIs, staff, or alumni. They go through a 1/2 – 1 day training on the purpose of ESOAL and their job responsibilities. That is about the extent of the training.”

yes, when i facilitated esoal my GI year, all i had to do was sign up. there was maybe an hour or so meeting all the facilitators went to in which dave told us some of what was going to happen and explained some of his behaviors and the terminolgy we should be using. we were supposed to push people at certain points, and at other points leave them alone, etc. he explained all his mental games he plays with esoal participants, telling them esoal isn’t even half way over yet when it’s really almost done. stuff like that. but no, there was no training in how to stretch people or handle the results of stretching people emotionally and physically. it was mostly “you went through esoal you know what’s up!” if it’s true that esoal has changed drastically since then, that’s good to hear, but i agree esoal doesn’t even seem necessary nor good in my opinion anyway.