In October of this year, Teen Mania held a Battlecry event in Uganda. Also a part of the event was Ugandan Pastor Martin Ssempa, referred to as Ron Luce’s “longtime friend and Ugandan ministry partner.” In addition, as recently as October, Teen Mania was planning to start a branch of the Honor Academy in Uganda in partnership with Ssempa.
Unfortunately, Ssempa has been in the news lately for his vocal support of an unsavory law designed to criminalize homosexuality. Proposed punishments include life in prison and death by hanging for practicing homosexuality. Rick Warren, who has also partnered with Ssempa in the past, has even distanced himself from Ssempa because of the controversy.
So how did Ron react when this incredibly un-Christian bill and Ssempa’s support of it was brought to his attention? From his facebook wall:
i did talk with him and what has been reported about him is not true. the bill is about men with HIV raping boys…and the parliment (not martin ssempa) wants to give them death penalty (this is the same as the law they passed 13 years ago for HIV men raping undreage girls). martin and other pastors have reccommended 20 year sentence for this crime. Please pass along the truth to others…
This simply does not square with the facts. The very first sentence of the bill says:
The object of this Bill is to establish a comprehensive consolidated legislation to protect the traditional family by prohibiting (i) any form of sexual relations between persons of the same sex:
Ron is either completely uninformed about this topic or he is outright lying. Neither of those are good options for the head of a multi-million dollar ministry. It took me all of 5 seconds on google to find this bill. There is no excuse for Ron’s ignorance here. How are we supposed to trust a man who can’t do simple fact checking? Where is the integrity or excellence in his response? In addition, Ron was at the Battlecry event from Oct. 9-11th. This bill was introduced on Oct. 13th. Was Ron still in Uganda that time? If so, how is it possible that he had not heard of this issue until now?
Dave Hasz had a better response. He left two comments on his wall in reaction to the news:
I am just becoming aware of this concern and we are doing research quickly to see what the real story is. I agree with you that based on this story this is wrong. We will make the right decision on our future relationship with Martin after we research it. We are on it now.TM is going to give an official statement soon, we should all realize this is not as clear cut – the death penalty for homosexuals- as it is made out to be. The bill calls for the death penalty for aids men who rape minors – amongst other things. It is the amongst other things that is over the line in the bill. A statement is forthcoming soon.
There are many questions to be resolved here. I won’t go into detail but I encourage you to research this yourself. There are plenty of news stories out there and Rachel Maddow has done some excellent reporting on this.
Here is the Bottom Line: Even if Ron Luce was unaware of Ssempa’s support of this bill, it does not take more than an hour of reading and listening to Ssempa’s views to discover that he believes that morality can be created through legislation. Apparently, he doesn’t read the Old Testament much. The law is unable to change men’s hearts or coerce Christian behavior. Ssempa states that homosexuality is a criminal act and should be rewarded with life imprisonment and that “there should be no rights granted to homosexuals in this country.” According to a clip on his website, he believes fear is a valid tool and should be used to change behavior. Where is the Jesus in that? How will that promote the Kingdom or transform hearts? Where is the respect for basic human dignity and life?
This idea of forced moral behavior through government intervention is what I find most disturbing about this entire episode. According to this intern’s blog (bold is mine for emphasis):
Through our partnership with a local pastor, Martin Ssempa in Uganda, we have the incredible opportunity to take the internship to foreign soil for the first time. Ssempa’s ministry and heartbeat are very similar to Teen Mania and he has been very influential in Uganda for nearly two decades as well. Due to their similar passions and ministries, Ssempa and the president of Teen Mania, Ron Luce, had an instant connection once they met. Ssempa has already been developing and raising up leaders in Uganda who love God and can bring change to Africa.
I’m concerned that, as this intern states, Ron Luce and Ssempa might be too similar. Although Ron Luce may or may not endorse killing gays, does his theology lead to that direction? (After all, the Honor Academy is about forced moral behavior.) Why is he associating with someone like this, referring to him as a “longtime friend and Ugandan ministry partner?”
I eagerly await Teen Mania’s official statement on this situation.
29 comments:
They are politicized evangelical Christians, of course they believe in forced moral behavior through government intervention. They’ve made their views on homosexuality pretty clear on a number of occasions.
December 18, 2009 7:59 AM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
That’s funny; I actually just got a message yesterday from TM (sent to alumni) trying to distance themselves from the situation.
It sounds good, but it seems to go against the statements highlighted here by Hasz and Luce. Hmm… if it’s okay with you, I’d like to send it your way, RA.
December 18, 2009 9:08 AM
MDSF said…
While I can’t speak to the actual circumstances here and haven’t met Mr Luce, this kind of fact invention looks like fairly typical behavior of people who honestly believe they decide what’s true, and expect people to believe them.
December 18, 2009 11:18 AM
Anonymous said…
RON LUCE AND TEEN MANIA MINISTRIES desire to clarify any confusion surrounding the political happenings in Uganda that have come to view regarding the pending controversial bill before that nation’s legislature. While Teen Mania has partnered with many pastors and ministries in Uganda over the years, it has been to only one end: To reach people with the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. While we hold Biblically based convictions regarding marriage and sexuality, we also stand by the commandment of Jesus to love our neighbors as ourselves.
Teen Mania has had nothing to do with the crafting of any proposed Ugandan bills or legislation and Ron Luce and Teen Mania Ministries have no intention of speaking into the political process of another nation. Ron Luce, Teen Mania founder and President, commented, “The scriptures clearly teach that marriage is to be between one man and one woman and that sexual relations are reserved for marriage. However, Jesus also taught us through his words and actions, that when people stray – our response as Christ followers should be to find them, love them and help to restore them.”
Teen Mania Ministries has worked with Ugandan leaders, pastors and ministries on mission projects and events in Uganda in recent years. While the work in Uganda will continue in Kampala and Gulu and Teen Mania will continue to hold fast to the biblical teachings found in Lev. 18:22 and Rom 1:26,27, Teen Mania Ministries will also be re-evaluating all Ugandan and African partners to ensure that we are not partnering with or supporting anyone who has advocated for a blanket death penalty for homosexual offenders.
We do not pretend to understand the difficult choices necessary by those in authority in Uganda who are trying to curb the heinous spread of HIV and AIDS, but we understand the necessity to take strict punitive measures against those with the disease that are preying on young children, regardless of gender. Finally, we do not pretend to know the intricacies of how this legislation has been proposed or revised, but our prayer would be that God would give wisdom to those making decisions and that His will would be accomplished in Uganda. Our prayers are with and for those in this beloved nation.
December 18, 2009 1:53 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Anonymous – Where did you find this?
“Ron Luce and Teen Mania Ministries have no intention of speaking into the political process of another nation.”
Good to know they won’t speak out on behalf of the oppressed. Sounds like the same idea people used to avoid speaking out against the Holocaust.
While I’m glad to know thy are re-evaluating their partnership with Ssempa, my original concerns still stand.
December 18, 2009 1:58 PM
h. said…
that was the official statement they sent out to the alumni group on fb.
it may just be me, but it came across as kind of wishy-washy…like they were refusing to take a firm stance on the issue.
December 18, 2009 3:27 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
h.- I felt similarily. Like they’re trying to say all the right, Christian things, without upsetting anybody (while simultaneously washing their hands of any criticism, from either end of the spectrum).
“We do not pretend to have a strong opinion on anything” is pretty much all I got from that, lol.
December 18, 2009 3:44 PM
h. said…
oh good, i’m not the only one, haha. you expressed what i was feeling far more eloquently than i did, but that’s what i was getting from it too.
December 18, 2009 4:42 PM
ken said…
STOP THE LIES!
The anti-gay bill is being grossly misrepresented and demonized.
The pastors (including SSEMPA himself) recommended a 20 year sentence in place of the death sentence and life imprisonment. All this rubbish about Martin Ssempa wanting to kill gays is UTTER RUBBISH! In his Church, there are even former gays he pastors.
The reaction to the bill is HYSTERICAL! Anyone still talking about killing gays is iving in the past.
Do not intimidate Pastor Ron Luce and TeenMenia as you did to Pastor Rick Warren.
Did you even know that according to the constitution of Uganda, the molestation of a GIRL under 18 is punishable by death and life imprisonment. There is nothing about the boy child. Does the rape of a boy constitute a lesser evil than the rape of a girl? That’s why the legislators equated the two in this piece of legislation.
PLEASE UNDERSTAND. NO PASTOR IN UGANDA IS CONSPIRING TO KILL GAYS. PASTOR MARTIN SSEMPA REPRESENTS UGANDAN CORE VALUES OF PROTECTING THE WEAK, DEFENDING THE TRADITIONAL FAMILY, AND FIGHTING HIV/AIDS (which has humiliatingly sky rocketted because DONORS view HIV in Uganda as lack of enough condoms instead of faithfulness in marriage and behavior change!)
Suprisingly, of all bloggers, i have seen no one stand to talk about what we should do about the increasing number of children and the disables being molested by gay people. They only talk about the rights of gay people (the molesters)-WHICH IS NOT A RIGHT IN UGANDA. It brings into question their justice system.
Uganda is not in a hate campaign. It is in a justice campaign. Love with injustice is useless.
Finally, “an unjust law is no law a all” from St.Augustine. St. Aquinas said, “An unjust law is one inconsistent with the laws of nature and the laws of God.” Christians, does God pat sodomites on the back and tell them well done?
About love (according to the new testament), yes we MUST love people. However, the concept of love has even been grossly misunderstood. Christians need to know how KIND and SEVERE GOD can be. Read:
Rom 1:18-32 “…32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”
Rom 11:22 “Here we see HOW KIND and HOW SEVERE God is. He is severe toward those who have fallen, but kind to you—if you continue in his kindness. But if you do not, you too will be broken off.”
There are also two kinds of enemies- God’s enemies and our own enemies. How are we supposed to deal with the two?
For God’s enemies:
Psalm 139:20-24 They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name. Do I not hate those who hate you, LORD, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies.
(As you hate God’s enemies, ask God to)
Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
For your own enemies:
Mat 5:43-48 43“You have heard that it was said ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
December 18, 2009 11:46 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Ken,
If the bill is only to protect minors and rape victims, then why is written to imprison consenting adults? Here is the first part of the bill. Mention of minors doesn’t even make it until the 5th paragraph:
1.1. The principle
The object of this Bill is to establish a comprehensive consolidated legislation to protect the traditional family by prohibiting (i) any form of sexual relations between persons of the same sex; and (ii) the promotion or recognition of such sexual relations in public institutions and other places through or with the support of any Government entity in Uganda or any non governmental organization inside or outside the country.
This Bill aims at strengthening the nation’s capacity lo deal with emerging internal and external threats threats to the traditional heterosexual family.
This legislation further recognizes the fact that same sex attraction is not an innate and immutable characteristic.
The Bill further aims at providing a comprehensive and enhanced legislation to protect the cherished culture of the people of Uganda, legal, religious, and traditional family values of the people of Uganda against the attempts of sexual rights activists seeking to impose their values of sexual promiscuity on the people of Uganda.
There is also need to protect the children and youths of Uganda who are made vulnerable to sexual abuse and deviation as a result of cultural changes, uncensored information technologies, parentless child developmental settings, and increasing attempts by homosexuals to raise children in homosexual relationships through adoption, foster care, or otherwise.
December 18, 2009 11:51 PM
ken said…
Please know this. THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IS A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE. Therefore, we do not determine how right or wrong a person is by how good or bad people say they are, but the how commited they are to the laws of God, despite the fire around them. This is true of all prophets of old and early church Christians. Christians should not be deceived. Because you have no enemy or anyone saying bad stuff about you, and you are living in a comfort zone does not mean God is pleased with you. I am afraid it may sometimes be the contrary. However in all persecution, God gives an inner peace.
Read these scriptures:
Matthew 10:34-39 NLT”Don’t imagine that i came to bring peace to the Earth! No, i came to bring a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in law. Your enemies will be right in your own household! If you love your own father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you cling to your life, you will lose it; But if you give it up for me, you will find it.
And the lie of separating Church from the state is alarmingly gaining acceptance!
The Earth and all its fullness belong to God, and he demands that his will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Matthew 6:10 NLT”May your kingdom come soon. May your will be done here on earth as it is in heaven.”
Dear Christians, do not be cowards! Do not water down the laws of God, just because you are comfronted by a giant:
Joshua 1:9 NLT “Be strong and courageous! Do not be afraid or discouraged. For the LORD your God is with you wherever you go.”
Jeremiah 1:7-8 NLT “Don’t say that!….for you must go wherever i send you and say whatever i tell you. AND DON’T BE AFRAID OF THE PEOPLE, for i will be with you and take care of you. I, the LORD, have spoken.”
Jeremiah 1:17 NLT “…DO NOT BE AFRAID OF THEM, OR I WILL MAKE YOU LOOK FOOLISH IN FRONT OF THEM…”
Kankaka Edward Nelson
December 19, 2009 12:22 AM
ken said…
Dear Recovering alumni,
The reason is because the consenting adults, from a long history of sodomy struggle in Uganda, do not stop in the privacy of their bedroom. They go on to actively molest and recruit minors in schools.
The History
The world needs to know that the struggle against sodomy in Uganda began in 1886 (almost 113 years now), when a deviant King (who learnt the vice from Arabs) ordered the murder of 23 boys,( some were even below 10) because they refused to be sodomized, on account of their faith. He was shocked they had rejected the advances of a monarch who even considered himself the “sexiest man alive”. They went as far as shedding blood, and one of them before being prosecuted, told the King “…you will face a higher court.” To-date, Ugandans remember the plight of these boys every June third. These are the ones called the Uganda Martyrs. http://www.newvision.co.ug/D/8/459/437768 and http://www.buganda.com/martyrs.htm
The monarch, when disposed in exile, wrote one of the most memorable pieces of repentance to his subjects, and when he came back, he committed himself and family to Christianity. To date, the royal family of Buganda Kingdom is Christian!
Homosexuals from go ahead to recruit and molest minors in Schools. They are a social threat. One of their leaders even admitted to active recruitment of school children. The colleagues wanted to roast him alive for spilling the beans! http://www.newvision.co.ug/D/8/12/675619
Homosexuals also have a sickening demonic belief of “virgin sex cure” from HIV if they have sex with a minor. Just Google ‘virgin sex cure’ and you will see for yourself. They have caused intolerable damage to Uganda, even contributed greatly to the demise of our one-time boast of a successful fight against HIV/AIDS. The spread is now sky rocketing!
In common logic, reasoning beings handle a problem from the root cause, not the leaves!
Our Culture
From our culture, as is already in our constitution, homosexuality is not a human right, and neither is it a natural way of life. It criminalizes such unnatural sexual relations. However, no penalties are stated for offenders, especially of boys.
95% Ugandans want homosexuality banned http://www.sundayvision.co.ug/detail.php?mainNewsCategoryId=7&new…
Parents increasingly fear for the safety of their children. They want the bill enacted http://www.monitor.co.ug/artman/publish/news/Parents_want_Anti-gay_Bill _enacted.htm
The Afro centric view of life states, “I am because we are.” Therefore, what my brother does in the privacy of his bedroom concerns me. Trust me, in Ugandan Culture; if one is individualistic, they are out of place and order. Our communities are built on a fabric of concern for all. My neighbor has a right to punish and correct my son if he is found misbehaving on the street.
I acknowledge there are deviant individuals. But as is the case with all other social crime, we believe in awarding justice. Africans understand justice to be fair punishment of the criminal and helping the victim. That is us. It is within our bones, and can never be taken away!
The California law on Unlawful sexual intercourse
Did you know that in California, there is a similar law that demands the report of molestation, including sodomy? This is not the same in many other states in USA
If California had a right to enact a law that they believed was for the good of their state, does Uganda not even have a greater right and even duty to make its own law of ‘Unlawful sexual intercourse’?
Pressure from uncredible voices
On Wednesday December 24th, 2008 France and Netherlands determined to make the whole world homosexual tolerant and pro-abortion. This is utterly devilish! This is moral imperialism and relativism from already morally failed states! (Obama was even cited in the article as being their next key man, no wonder he has joined the moral bullies) http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/41252 We are justified in seeking to protect our nation from such bullies and impostors.
December 19, 2009 1:26 AM
ken said…
I would like to bring to attention what a disgust and heart breaking act homosexuality is to the true africans (save for the sycophants of western pro-gay ideologies).
A woman in rural Kisoro district uganda got nauseated, spat and nearly vomited when she was told what “ebisiyaga” (homosexuality and lesbianism )is. She even said “That is why God is no longer even sending us rain!”
People may call this ‘homophobic’ but this is just a sample of 95% of Ugandans. Just so you know.
Pro-gay people are truthphobic, morophobic, and untrue to what they are meant to be.
For the true African, and Ugandan in particular, YOU MAY SKIN THEM ALIVE BEFORE YOU MAKE A BUTCHERY OF THEIR CONSCIENCE.
Over to you.
December 19, 2009 1:47 AM
Anonymous said…
Ken, I am so very very glad that we do not share the same beliefs in an ‘afterlife’ because the thought of spending an eternity with human beings like you makes me feel ill.
December 19, 2009 7:02 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Ken, you said “Therefore, we do not determine how right or wrong a person is by how good or bad people say they are, but the how commited they are to the laws of God.”
and also, in an article you wrote:
“Hate the sin, love the sinner?
The only time the sin is separated from the sinner is when there is Repentance, irrespective of who the sinner is.”
This is probably our fundamental disagreement. You are judging people on their works (much like Old Testament law and the Pharisees). I do not agree with your definition of love either, which in your article states that you immediately confront them of all evil.
You are free to your beliefs of course, as I am free to mine. It doesn’t look like we’ll change each others minds, so let’s just drop it.
December 19, 2009 8:49 AM
ken said…
Dear recovering alumni, long time. I would like to applaud you for your intellect and good debate.
That’s why i mantain good people like you need to be properly informed.
The bill in Uganda was grossly demonized and misrepresented by pedophiles and their allies!
I would like to inform you now that Ugandans are more determined than ever to see the bill go through soon. We believe in our national sovereignty, and thus to make laws that reflect our core values, and the laws of nature. You must be aware that different regions in Uganda are tired of pedophiles and their propaganda, and are determined to see their children protected. The parents said “No ammount of pressure is going to deter us from protecting our children. We are love our children more than pro-gay donor money”
On “the fundamental disagreement”, which i believe is infact a “fundamental agreement,” God is the ultimate standard for determining right and wrong. Since we know his word is clear on the comfrontation of evil, i see no reason for disagreement. Besides, “Righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach to any people”.
February 17, 2010 12:27 AM
ken said…
Dear anonymous,
Thank you for expressing your feelings.
Your statement
“Ken, I am so very very glad that we do not share the same beliefs in an ‘afterlife’ because the thought of spending an eternity with human beings like you makes me feel ill.”
is a clear signal that the truth of the Gospel is a Rock of offense. On the contrary, i would like to share eternity in heaven with you. That’s why i call on you to read the Bible for yourself and obey what it says. It does not offer different beliefs in after life. It even mentions various evils and says “such will not inherit the kingdom of God.” I believe you should side with truth.
Jesus said “Do not imagine that i came to bring peace. No, i came to bring a SWORD… to set son against father… Blessed are those who are not offended because of me.”
The ‘gospel’ of massaging evil and keeping quiet about it has completely no place in scripture. LOVE does not side with evil. It seeks to redeem out of evil.
I love you, Anonymous, and i pray we will someday embrace in heaven. “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”
NB. In blogging, anonymity is not good. It implies insufficiency of facts, insecurity and cowardice. Atleast use your initials.
Regards.
February 17, 2010 12:54 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
This isn’t going to turn into a debate about the afterlife…so let’s just drop that for now.
February 17, 2010 12:57 AM
xtmwchngr said…
Im so glad i don’t believe in the afterlife. what a waste of time this is.
February 17, 2010 4:13 AM
Diane said…
You know, I fear that, as human beings, we are once again approaching things from the wrong perspective.
I must concede that I am someone who wishes to leave all judgment to the Great Judge, rescinding my “right” to the Knowledge of Good and Evil and partaking instead of the Tree of Life.
As someone who has been shown great mercy and redemption in the midst of great rebellion and sin, I would hope that I could show the same to others as well.
Instead of condemning homosexuals – or adulterers, slanderers, witches, liars, betrayers, or anyone who is HUMAN – why can’t we leave that task up to God?
Why not, instead, turn to hope and love, and trust that, while these “sinners” are still alive, we might be able to show them God – and possibly spare their eternal lives?
Loving someone means doing unto them as you would have them do unto you.
If you were lost, drowning in darkness, and destined to eternal death for your sin (as, in fact, we all once were) – and these others knew how you might be spared… wouldn’t you want them to rescue you? Instead of heaping condemnation on you?
After all, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for US.
So why didn’t He die for them as well?
February 17, 2010 5:49 PM
ken said…
Hi all. I love you guys. The love of God unites us all. The body of Christ is a unit, and should not be divided. We may have different opinions, but let’s keep the unity of the body.
Best regards.
February 18, 2010 1:09 AM
Cesna said…
I actually like Ken. 🙂
February 18, 2010 10:52 AM
Anonymous said…
Ken-
I appreciate your passion, but I think the task of trying to legislate the sexuality of consenting adults is not just about following God’s laws. While 95% of Ugandans might find homosexuality abhorrent (I agree that it is a sin)-it will be hard to be consistent on sexuality issues and make it hard for the church to be seen as a light and salt of God’s grace and redemption in Jesus.
To give an example-Uganda is one of the few predominantly Christian nations that legalizes polygamy. Is that a true reflection of Christian teaching on marriage?
What about the reported tax on prostitutes as reported in this link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3084969.stm
You see what I mean? Unless all your laws for both heterosexual sin and homosexual sin are addressed-then how will you not appear to be punishing homosexual sin but looking the other way when it comes to heterosexual sins?
peace to you in Him
February 19, 2010 1:05 AM
moriah said…
Hello.
this is not meant to start an extensive discussion about homosexuality, but I do want to let everyone know, that as a former intern, I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. Since my years at the honor academy, I have had the pleasure of getting to know many people who are gay and lesbian, and have come to some very different conclusions about what sin is since my time at TM. In contrast to the harsh judgement they receive from the christian community, my gay and lesbian friends often exemplify many of the qualities Christians claim to have, such as compassion and non-judgement. Additionally, their spark for the same sex makes them really interesting to talk to and listen to!
(Not to mention all the really fun stuff! Ladies, have you ever gotten a fashion makeover by your gay male friend? Trust me! Its delightful!)
Sin is a complex issue, especially when we try to apply it to others in a completely different culture and political structure. I dont think it is black and white, as many Christian communities preach and believe, including Teen Mania. The definition of sin evolves and changes over time and within the context of culture and history. Don’t let this unsettle you. It doesn’t have to shake your core belief in God. It might shake you up a bit, but thinking and re-thinking is part of being human and change is part of growing up. Less black and white. More color.
Love always,
Moriah
February 19, 2010 1:37 AM
w said…
to moriah–regarding part of your comment:
The definition of sin evolves and changes over time and within the context of culture and history.
I strongly disagree with you–sin is sin–what has evolved over time is our justifying it, our watering-down of it. The threshold of what is ‘ok’ keeps getting lowered. Yes–it is a black and white issue–there are no gray areas in the bible.
That said–the Bible says ‘all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God’. We have Jesus, who took our sin and nailed it to the cross–He is the Mediator between us and a Holy God.
February 19, 2010 8:16 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Hey Guys – I really don’t want to get off topic by debating homosexuality. Let’s try to keep this discussion based on human rights and the proper use of the law. Thanks.
February 19, 2010 11:07 AM
Moriah said…
RA-
While I respect the fact that you are trying to keep things on topic, you certainly must realize that legislation begins with the world view of the people in power, of those making the laws to begin with. I am not interested in debating homosexuality on this website, but I am interested in pointing out a concept of pattern in the law-making process. Religious political leaders rely very naturally on their world view in the process of law making, and even though we can idealize a society where leaders don’t enforce morality through laws, the fact is, a persons morals are going to filter into the activities of their daily lives, whether they are waitresses, carpenters, senators, or presidents. A law maker will create laws that reflect his or her moral stance. Researching and truly understanding the concept of sin as it relates to lawmaking throughout history is important in understanding this whole situation with Luce and Ssempa. The definition of “sin” has been used time and time again to define “legal” and “illegal” behavior, but it is constantly changing within the context. In Uganda, it is being used to create laws that justify killing people who practice homosexuality. At Teen Mania, it is being used to create laws (both written and unspoken) that punish people who participate in any number of behaviors mentioned on this website (walking on the grass, getting too close with someone of the opposite sex, ect ect,) My comment about homosexuality was intended to introduce this concept as something to ponder in light of powerful people like Ron Luce, Dave Hasz and Ssempa, who are constantly creating laws that punish people for not adhering to their definition of christian behavior. Homosexuality doesn’t justify killing, nor does walking on the grass justify being ostracized by your peer group.
February 21, 2010 4:00 AM
Anonymous said…
Choosing not to believe that something is a sin does not make your chosen belief true. All the more so when when the Bible clearly spells it out as sin and behavior that is not acceptable to God.
Does that mean that God doesn’t love them? No, but even that doesn’t make their behavior acceptable. Rationalizing it away as not relevant to current views is irrelevant too.
Should they be imprisoned for it? Maybe. Look at history. As a people become more accepting of blatant sin and immoral behavior, the overall moral compass of a nation degenerates. This is clearly evident in our nation and holds true around the world.
People tend to be eager to justify their own behavior (or sin) and desire to continue to live however they want – but want to embrace the truth of God that they agree with and disregard the rest. Grace doesn’t equal a free ride to continue sinning and there are consequences for choosing death or choosing life.
But I think someone made a great point about society criminalizing one type of sin over another.
March 12, 2010 9:54 AM
Shannon Kish said…
wow, such hatred for people who are different than others Ken. It is sickening.
Glad to hear that TM continues to not give any real yes or no, clear cut answers.
March 29, 2010 12:58 PM
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