If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Many of you have already brought your issues to TM leadership and they have not listened. Through this blog, our stories to the board, and the phone call tonight, these accusations and issues have been verified by many more than 2 or 3 witnesses and brought before the church (gathered believers) in accordance with Scripture.
See the post below this one for my questions as well as many others in the comments.
A few rhetorical devices to be aware of in the phone call tonight:
1.Straw Men – Attacking a misrepresentation of our position.
Example: Dave Hasz told the staff that many of the letters sent to the Board of Directors were complaints about having to exercise. This is a straw man. The complaints are NOT about having to exercise. They are about neglecting the health and safety of interns during that exercise and also tying their spiritual worth to exercise. Both of those are very damaging things that need to be remedied.
2. Blaming the Victim
Example: The Honor Academy is an environment that challenges young people to aspire toward excellence in everything they do. This program is not for everyone and while there are those that do not excel within it, the vast majority do.
Or: “some young people do not have the maturity or self discipline to finish such a rigorous program.”
3. Apologies that start with “if.” Apologies like this allow the person making them to seem sincere yet without taking any responsibility for what happened or showing the true repentance it takes to keep from repeating the situation.
Example: If I said that, I’m sorry. If you experienced that, I’m sorry.
4. Trying to Gain Sympathy of the Hearers – They may mention their sacrifices in serving interns. How, for many years, they have poured out their “blood, sweat, and tears.” Just keep in mind both sides of the story. Those “blood, sweat and tears” have earned Dave Hasz a a $400k house, $400k in rental properties and a 6 figure income.
5. Making This Call About Us – Dave is a master at turning the tables. This call is not about what we need to do in order to get closure or how we need to move on. That is not information we can trust Teen Mania to give us anyway. This call is about them. How have they changed in the past? What changes are they making now? How are they going to prevent abuse in the future?
6. Focusing on Feelings Instead of Facts – When abuse is in play, intentions don’t matter much. We all know that the leaders of TM have good intentions. It would be easy to focus on how much they love the interns, how much they want the internship to be a great place, how much they feel this is a calling from God. But those are feelings – not facts. What they actually do is much more relevant than how they feel.
18 comments:
RA, if you could, please forward this question regarding the Honor Council: A recently-dismissed GI had said that ‘changes’ were made in the whole ‘dismissal’ process. What, exactly, were those changes, and how, exactly, does the whole concept of Honor Council line up with Scripture, and on Jesus’ love, mercy and grace?
Also, when an intern is being pursued to sign up for HA–they tell you it is God’s will; however, if you are dismissed–you all of a sudden were not ‘actually in God’s will’–what is up with that? This causes much confusion, pain and condemnation on a young person. First, they are dismissed and shown and told they are not good enough–then, how are they ever to trust or understand ‘hearing God’s voice’ when they are told two different things–depending on the circumstances (according to HA)?
June 28, 2010 7:12 PM
Shannon Kish said…
I have started an online chat at http://tinychat.com/haalumni for those that would like to participate during the conference call.
June 28, 2010 7:58 PM
legless said…
Conveniently locked out of this call because I was busy until 20 min. after the conference call began.
June 28, 2010 8:24 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
legless..apparently it was limited to 100 participants. Sorry!! A recording will be posted
June 28, 2010 8:26 PM
Anonymous said…
There is a second line opened up. Stop being so paranoid. You guys need to drop this torch and pick up the cross.
June 28, 2010 8:42 PM
JustMe said…
@anon 842, seriously? I think people have reason to be suspicious.
June 28, 2010 9:27 PM
TruthInLoveSucksSometimes said…
Wow. That was nasty anon. Maybe YOU should take up your cross & go somewhere else.
This place isn’t for you.
June 28, 2010 10:00 PM
Anonymous said…
RA, I certainly hope you’re able to find your way through to a productive solution to this thing you’ve created. I don’t think Dave could have said more clearly that he was committed to finding resolution. At this point, the onus is on you to respond. Think and pray carefully. How you respond will determine whether or not anyone takes you seriously going forward.
June 28, 2010 10:48 PM
Anonymous said…This post has been removed by a blog administrator.June 28, 2010 10:49 PM
TisTrue said…
I am inclined to agree with anon.@10pm.
June 28, 2010 10:56 PM
Anonymous said…
I agree. Dave was very clear and I think to some point all Alumni have issues but thankfully the leadership at Teen Mania take those seriously and work to make things better for future classes..the leadership are people they aren’t perfect so there is always going to be stuff that goes wrong, but being hurt, you address those issues with Dave etc and come to some form of closure and move on..allowing them to fester and choosing to make this more about bashing people and TM isn’t right and its really only hurting yourself by allowing bitterness to fester and grow.
June 28, 2010 11:31 PM
Anonymous said…
Well. After the phone call I feel like Milton from office space. (about TMM that is)
June 29, 2010 12:01 AM
RecoveringAlumniResponse.com said…
Download the Conference Call audio recording here: http://recoveringalumniresponse.com/conference-call/
June 29, 2010 12:09 AM
Brad K said…
“RA, I certainly hope you’re able to find your way through to a productive solution to ‘this thing you’ve created.’ ??? I don’t think Dave could have said more clearly that he was committed to finding resolution. At this point, the onus is on you to respond. Think and pray carefully. How you respond ‘will determine whether or not anyone takes you seriously going forward.'” ???
You sounded rather like an anus than an opus in your challenge for an onus. But that’s my professional opinion based on what seems to be a rather passive aggressive comment.
I love Dave, and I personally trust what he says, but I feel RA’s caution was appropriately given. I and several friends have experienced the “turning of tables” by top Teen Mania staff over the years. “Ohmygosh… they’re human too!” As if we all haven’t tried to pass on responsbility before. However, for the purpose of these conversations, RA is right in that Teen Mania should own up to their issues… as should we all.
I will point out that “apologies that begin with if” are not always meant to be insincere. IF anything, at times, a person may begin an apology with “if” to take responsibility for what parts he feels that he can currently own up to or understand: such as causing someone pain unintentionally, for example. This is honorable, and more importantly, it’s loving.
As in most conversations, the delivery matters more than what’s delivered, the attitude more than the phrase.
There were people in the conversation who, I felt, definitely had an attitude of hurt and bitterness going on. But can you really blame them? And even if you can, shouldn’t you be the “better” man or woman according to your own “higher” standards and be willing and patient to LISTEN and understand?
One says, “Gosh… people can be so bitter!” as he thinks to himself, “Thank God I am SO above their level of maturity.” Just because you’re not bitter doesn’t necessarily make you any better. We’ve all got our crutches; we all like to judge. Let’s have some compassion with each other.
In summary, I think people who are attacking RA and others on this forum are loonies… and/or mostly cowards. Put your name next to your comment, and then see if you wouldn’t want to rephrase things a bit – or even a bit more kindly. I’d love to see your names next to such confident opinions, and of course, a name doesn’t make anyone right. Only One Name does this for anyone.
Concern for growth and healing, not stagnation, has been expressed by several here, including myself and RA. I had thoughts that I wished to submit to the conversation tonight, but I ran out of time. I was rather late to the party.
Thanks to my friend Lynds for the invite, and hopefully, I’ll be better prepared (or prepared at all!) for the next round.
Cheers.
June 29, 2010 12:10 AM
Anonymous said…
RA. I feel like your really bitter just by the way you talked and the tone in your voice. I hope your ok. Bitteness is not what we need here.
But I do support you
June 29, 2010 10:00 AM
phoenix said…
@ anon 10:00am I dont think she sounded bitter, frustrated maybe, but not bitter. Also I think its rare that someone walks away from an debate with Dave and not feel frustrated or riled up.
June 29, 2010 11:46 AM
red said…
No, she was terribly bitter, and terribly rude. She was disrespectful regardless of whether she was right or wrong. Her tone was not simply firm or frustrated, it was ugly.
July 2, 2010 1:03 AM
Jacqueline said…
It’s not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or when the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt
We love you RA!!!
July 2, 2010 8:51 AM