An inside source has reported to me that on Tuesday of this week, during chapel (approximately 36 hours before ESOAL began) Teen Mania leadership asked the intern body if any of them were paramedics or registered nurses. Two people responded and my source witnessed one of them working in the “clinic” area at ESOAL.
55 comments:
Robbie said…
I can’t believe how blatantly irresponsible that is! Sadly, it’s business-as-usual at Teen Mania.
Parents should DEFINITELY think twice about the health and safety of their children during Teen Mania events. If it were my kid, there is NO WAY I would allow him or her to participate in an event with such fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants safety precautions.September 18, 2010 11:22 AM
Anonymous said…
My brother participated in Esoal this past week. I am not sure about the claims of who is providing medical care. I will check back with him on this point. He did say however that he was going to be helping in the clinic. He rang out during Thursday afternoon. I am happy to say that he experienced nothing of what is written in this blog. He never had to roll the hill, he never had to eat weird things, no one ever called him a loser. They must have really cleaned up their act this year. They know that there are people watching. The Dave guy is participating and parents are participating this year. The official blog is being careful to show different aspects of Esoal that have been called into question. I have never prayed so much as I have this past week. I was so relieved when he rang out. I didn’t know what Esoal was until a couple hours before he started. When I googled it I came across this website. All I could do for the next 24 hours was pray and cry that he would make it out okay. Thankfully he did but there are still many more still participating. There are many more that did have to roll the hill and who knows if the weird food did come out later. All I can do and I hope you will too that we continue to pray for those who are still in it that they will come out of this experience okay. Those that have needed or will need medical attention will recieve it. That because this Dave guy is participating maybe he will make drastic changes to Esoal … like maybe dismantle it? Ha … i know that one is a long shot. I just want to say thank you for coming out with your stories. It is only because people have started to speak out that they have started to make changes to cover their butt. That is what hopefully saved my brother. Now if I can only get him to stay at home when he comes home for Christmas!September 18, 2010 11:54 AM
Anonymous said…
What happened to our gentleman who was the medic at the past ESOAL events?September 18, 2010 2:43 PM
Anonymous said…
How awful!! A paramedic or registered nurse is working in the clinic?!!! SAY IT ISN’T SO!!!!September 18, 2010 3:47 PM
heartsfire said…
To the sister of the intern. I am thankful your brother’s experience was ok. I am glad he came out with his health still intact. I still have hope and prayers with you that with Dave and the parents participating things will be different (although Part of me wonders if something later will make up for that). I would love to pray for your brother during the remainder of his time there. Pray for his discernment and with that and some of the knowledge God is giving him he will be able to stay safe regardless if he stays for the full internship or not. You love your brother a great deal and that is a blessing. Much <3 to you!September 18, 2010 3:52 PM
Shiloh said…
At Anon. I think I’m sensing some sarcasm from you? But to be serious, T.M. talks all this stuff about how well prepared they are for ESOAL but when their paramedic backs out on them they ask an intern?
That’s like WAY questionable. What if the White House was like, ‘oh, Barack can’t make it, is anyone else qualified? oh you? ok great. Get up here. Hope you’re ready for this.”
Well… at least they got SOMEBODY right?
No.
If the right person isn’t there for the job… you change the job, not the person.September 18, 2010 5:36 PM
TempAnon said…
Anon at 3:47. . .No, what’s ridiculous is the fact that a day before ESOAL, Teen Mania evidently doesn’t have enough medical aid lined up, so they’re having to pull help from their intern population, who are mostly 18-19 years old. And if they ARE medics (I highly doubt that any are RNs, actually), it’s very unlikely that they have enough training to be working outside of the supervision of a far more experienced manager.September 18, 2010 6:10 PM
Anonymous said…
seriously? I mean really, are you joking me? They asked for people to help out the paramedics as needed. First of all you people really need to get all the facts before jumping to conclusions. Second you were the ones saying they needed more to have more people in the med tent, why the heck does it matter if its an intern as long as their medically certified and able to help out….seriously, anything you can do to stir things up…its rediculousSeptember 18, 2010 9:40 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
They asked for people to help out the paramedics as needed. What exactly does that mean? And why would they wait until the last day before the retreat to make those arrangements?
I’m sure glad when I call the ambulance, they don’t stop by the local college first and say, “Hey, can anybody give us a hand here?” They actually use qualified, certified, paid professionalsSeptember 18, 2010 11:02 PM
Anonymous said…
I just found this blog a former alumnus wrote about ESOAL. It was written several years ago but goes into great detail about the even. Very interesting.
http://kaitime.blogspot.com/2003_10_01_kaitime_archive.htmlSeptember 19, 2010 1:34 AM
Shiloh said…
Interesting note.
The ‘medic’ commented on ‘is ESOAL safe?’ saying he/she volunteered for the job.
They don’t even pay the medic.September 19, 2010 2:09 AM
Anonymous said…
The Same EMT that serves every year served this for ESOAL.September 19, 2010 8:01 AM
Anonymous said…
you know I was going to answer this but I just deleted everything I just wrote because I realized you know, it really doesn’t matter what I say, you will just rip it apart and its really not worth it anyway because nothing will make you happy.
peaceSeptember 19, 2010 9:04 AM
Anonymous said…
AmenSeptember 19, 2010 11:38 AM
Shannon Kish said…
I am okay if there is an intern who has EMT training and is a certified EMT.
I am not okay with the fact that this happened 36 hours before. And, knowing TMM and their lack of preparedness, I would imagine they didn’t verify the intern’s certification (whether the intern actually had it with them or not).September 19, 2010 12:14 PM
Shiloh said…
So, I’ve been thinking about the ESOAL thing. I was honestly very upset when I first read this. But am realizing we really need some facts before we get all stirred up. We don’t KNOW that T.M. didn’t check the credentials and we don’t know if the medic didn’t get paid.
I’m sorry for stirring the pot if I did.
I pray truth would come out.
It’s obvious there are some messed up things that go down at T.M. but it would be smart to not get caught up in gossip. (Though fun, not really worth the drama it causes. 🙂
My official two cents.September 19, 2010 5:29 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Agreed that we need the facts. I would love TM to disclose, with proof, exactly what went on.
My main concern is that they are looking for medical personnel only 1 day before ESOAL started. That is outrageously irresponsible.September 19, 2010 5:34 PM
Shiloh said…
I guess it’s tricky right now, because these are accusations. There hasn’t been an eye witness to say this happened. It’s kinda scary ground for you R.A. (I think) because it just leaves you open for attack if there is no solid proof and your accusing T.M. sorta your word against them.
Thoughts?
*I think everyone on this blog knows where I stand. lol. That’s why I’m being so bold.September 19, 2010 5:41 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Shiloh – I guess I’m a little confused – can you tell me exactly what accusations you think I’ve made? Or do you just mean in the comments?September 19, 2010 6:01 PM
Shiloh said…
You’re saying T.M. did this, but there isn’t anyone to confirm it.
I believe you totally. But it’s not really ‘solid fact.’
See what I’m saying?September 19, 2010 7:54 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
My source confirmed it, so that’s enough for me, personally. I would love multiple people to come forward but most interns think I’m the devil and won’t speak to me.September 19, 2010 9:02 PM
Anonymous said…
thats bogus….so your source confirmed it? thats not a fact, thats hearsay…..your our source and so because you say so it must be fact? Move on…not worth the fightSeptember 19, 2010 9:54 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Correction – it would be hearsay if she did not witness it herself. If you are so sure she’s wrong, why don’t you ask TM to provide proof?
I’ll be happy to set the record straight if TM can prove that this did not happen.September 19, 2010 10:03 PM
Shiloh said…
See R.A. Anon 9:54 is an example of what I was trying to say.
lol. Anon. I’m sorry but what? Your comment doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Why do you care that much? I’m serious. You really seem upset.September 19, 2010 10:14 PM
J said…
Knowing what I do about how far away the nearest ambulance stations are and how the two local ambulance companies operate (I know several people quite well who work for the local services), I would say that Teen Mania is negligent to not have hired a dedicated ambulance for the entirety of EASOL. The campus is about as far as it can be from the two nearest towns that have ambulances, and both of those towns’ trucks cover a large area including the Interstate.
Under normal conditions it’s fine to be that far away, but when you have people being encouraged to put their faces down to the bottom of muddy water, roll down hills, etc, you are greatly increasing the chance of injury. Best practice would be to have an ambulance on hand, just as you do for a football game, or when hosting a triathlon.
It wouldn’t be cheap to hire an ambulance to be there as long as TM runs EASOL since that event is long and requires overnights, but it wouldn’t be cost prohibitive either. Just a few interns’ tuitions would more than pay for it.September 19, 2010 10:52 PM
Anonymous said…
Technically, for you to say it R.A. it IS hearsay for you to state it. It is not hearsay for your source to state it.
I’m not saying it’s not true, but for you to state it to other people, by definition, it is hearsay.September 20, 2010 1:37 AM
layne said…
I don’t understand how anons continuously try to justify blatant acts of negligence toward interns. There are stacks upon stacks of evidence against TM and the HA. What else can we provide? On this site you will find first-hand stories, video and photos, and even admissions from staff. What else does RA and this community need to provide the general public to prove that TM has been and continues to be negligent toward the health and mental well-being of the interns (and missionaries) in their care?September 20, 2010 9:20 AM
Eric P. said…
Wait a minute, something here needs to be remarked upon:
Anon @ 11:54 wrote: “I am happy to say that he experienced nothing of what is written in this blog. He never had to roll the hill, he never had to eat weird things, no one ever called him a loser. They must have really cleaned up their act this year. They know that there are people watching. The Dave guy is participating and parents are participating this year.”
If this is true, then it’s rather good for Anon’s brother and other at-risk youth, but we have three logical options of what to think about Hasz and company:
1) Dave Hasz is not man enough to take his own medicine the way he’s repeatedly dished it out to teenagers.
2) This blog and the ensuing public awareness is making things very hot for the folks at HA, so they are trying to say “see, we do things differently now” by cutting some of the more egregious elements but keeping the principles the same (BAR theology etc.)
3) They’ve realized that ESOAL as done really was cruel and over-the-top, so they repented and changed it.
I won’t even consider believing #3 until I see a public apology to all previous ESOAL victims and open renunciation of the false doctrine of BAR. But #1 and #2 reflect very poorly on the character of everyone involved in the leadership (which is no surprise to most here I suspect).
Anyone else know what to make of this?September 20, 2010 11:19 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Eric – If you’ll notice, her brother rang out on Thursday afternoon, so he probably didn’t the the chance to roll the hill, do the food relay, etc.
TM definitely knows they are under the microscope, thats why Heath’s posts have majored on parents saying how great ESOAL is. But you can’t hide the truth forever, especially when that truth is on video.September 20, 2010 2:03 PM
heartsfire said…
The thing I noticed about the videos was that the mom who drove town to watch her son saw him “at a distance” She was likely not close enough to hear the things being said to her son and possibly not even allowed in the areas when things like the hill and things were done. Further one mom said 3 of her daughters had now gone through ESOAL if 2 had positive experiences her views would likely be colored by what she saw with that. Further I am wondering if the parents group (possibly WITH Dave) had the same ESOAL as the others. Lets note that with rotations skipping rotations for the older people going through ESOAL would not be a stretch… These are just THOUGHTS I was not there and did not see anything.September 20, 2010 2:10 PM
Shannon Kish said…
How many parents do you think actually watched the entire weekend of ESOAL? I would venture to say that they had an “open” time in which parents could watch and that those were mild compared to the rest of the events.
I could be wrong.
I am happy to see that parents are actually participating in the event, but am sad to say that these parents are only going to hurt our cause.
I can imagine, knowing TM as well as we do, that they dumbed down the ESOAL a bit with parents involved and DH doing his time.September 20, 2010 2:50 PM
Josh ex-intern 00-01 said…
I will stand by this until I SEE proof, but I doubt that Dave, or the parents, were given the same treatment that Dave gives to the interns.
Also, I would NOT be surprised that they had an intern doing first aid for ESOAL. Further more, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was someone from Security. When I was there, it was security, not the nurse, that splinted a friend of mine’s leg when he compund fractured it during intermural soccer one day. Yes, he was transported to the hospital where a rod was put in place of the bone.September 20, 2010 2:58 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
The fact is, even if Dave received the same treatment, his experience can never be the same as an interns.
He is not young and away from home for the first time, in a place where he has no power.September 20, 2010 2:59 PM
Stepahnie said…
“He is not young and away from home for the first time, in a place where he has no power.”
I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Being young and away from home for the first time colors everything about the TM experience. (That and the fact that most of us spent a year trying to prove that we wer good christians valuable people and worthy of TMs attention).
Most interns have not learned how to advocate for themselves and their well being. So when a situation goes south they have not yet learned how to standup and say… I get what you are trying to do here but this is wrong for me.
I still believe I benefitted from ESOAL, but I can now see how it is abusive.September 20, 2010 4:43 PM
Anonymous said…
I can tell you first hand that this was the hardest ESOAL in history with exception to the year of the hurricane 🙂 Also, parents were involved in every aspect if they chose to. There was one dad in fact that definitely got worse treatment in some ways than the interns….Dave definitely got it hard to….there were a lot of parents that were there the entire weekend and some that even followed their child’s company from evolution to evolution.September 20, 2010 5:22 PM
Anonymous said…
My GUESS is that the parents and Dave DID recieve the same treatment. It’s just that they think it’s good and don’t think anything is wrong with it.
Sad.
ESOAL is just kind of a joke in my mind. But so is most of T.M. too.September 20, 2010 6:29 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
I would agree with the last anon. It doesn’t really matter to me if some parent’s approve. Lots of parents at Jonestown gave their kids kool-aid.September 20, 2010 6:34 PM
heartsfire said…
I think RA and others hit it. It also may be why I chose to leave. Most people who go the HA do so directly out of high school. The few of us who have a year or two of college under our belts have a very different view. I have talked to more than one person who didn’t go directly to the HA and most of us left early or if not have a much less rosy view of our time there. We didn’t always do everything they asked us to do because we had learned safe adult discernment. Many times we payed by being told we were bad Christians. I always felt worse for those kids who’s first and only away from home experiences were at the hand of teen mania (I met a few my year). I always thought that those kids must have such a strange view of the world. I worry for the parents that are willing to allow their late teenage kids endure the physical abuse that TM dishes out. I worry about the parent that experiences ESOAL and says it’s a good thing because I wonder how abusive verbally and mentally they were to their kids when they were kids. I worry about those teens so much and it makes me sick that places like this are allowed to continue to behave like this and it’s considered a badge of honor!September 20, 2010 6:42 PM
Awakened parent said…
“parents at Jonestown gave their kids koolaid”
Great point, RA…I was one of those brainwashed parents who bought into the whole “line”…feeling so regretful now for what I allowed (and actually blindly encouraged my child) to go thru at HA…September 20, 2010 9:38 PM
Anonymous said…
As the sister of the brother: I want to make some points.
1. I was speaking specifically about my brother. The only reason he didn’t have to roll the hill was because he was being interviewed. The rest of his company rolled the hill or if not the whole company … the people who got the questions wrong. As far as I understand.
2. He probably did ring out too early to get any food banquet. He didn’t even get lunch. Just the lentils in the morning.
3. In less than 24 hours he still was nausous enough to throw-up. (this i learned not from him but from my parents – he neglected to tell me that part) .. What they could possibly be doing that in less than 24 hours he threw up without rolling a hill is beyond me.
4. Thank you to heartsfire … that meant a lot.
5. My brother is young, and his first time away from home … face palms.
6. I do think that it had more to do with point number 2 Eric P. – In the last two years – they have created their own blog, been very careful to show only interviews, some running,some happy smiling faces of kids waving to the camera, and lastly kids singing joy in their heart because they finally finished. That shows absolutely nothing of esoal except what they wanted you to see. It is just a great marketing tool.September 21, 2010 12:22 AM
Shannon Kish said…
Awakened Parent:
I would be interested in hearing more of your story.September 21, 2010 8:34 AM
Brandon said…
Some things to note:
Dave and all the parents that went through ESOAL experienced the same treatment as everyone else. I went through ESOAL my third time this year and was in Dave’s group. Trust me, it hasn’t gotten any easier.
TM asked for any trained paramedics or EMTs to come forward last minute because one of the current medics had requested to participate in ESOAL if a qualified replacement could be found. A qualified replacement was not found, so he continue to manage the medic station. Interns WERE involved in assisting the medic – cleaning feet, bringing bandages, running errands.
As far as I am aware, parents were never told they couldn’t see or witness any part of ESOAL. I had the chance to speak with quite a few who were watching and praying for their kids from a distance, as well as some who participated.
Overall, ESOAL 2010 was another successful experience. Those smiles and people waving at the camera? All that is real. Many alumni came back to participate, and the joy and excitement in ESOAL this year was at an all time high.September 21, 2010 12:07 PM
layne said…
So what we’re saying is, putting a teenager through humiliation and pain in the name of Jesus is ok? I just want to be clear. Is that it? Is it only ok because they volunteered to go through it?September 21, 2010 1:25 PM
Eric P. said…
Brandon – Yes, Stockholm Syndrome is a fascinating response to abuse, isn’t it?September 21, 2010 2:26 PM
Brie said…
I just want to point out that not all people who went to the HA after they graduated college left, I stayed for two years and almost stayed three and there is a respectful way to argue with your peers and leadership about what you might have a problem with because of being a “seasoned” adult and not fresh out of high school.
also remember there being an actual ambulance at ESOAL just in case it was ever needed and why would you pay someone to be there when there are plenty of certified, qualified EMT’s that would gladly volunteer their time for an event..just like medical professionals volunteer to work a camp for a week…and people who are “paid, certified, qualified professionals” on the rig aren’t always…how do you think they get qualified? by practicing on people as medical students, so you don’t always get seasoned professionals on your rig..just wanted to point that out. And who cares if they asked interns, if they were certified EMT’s or Nurses or whatever, their “qualified, certified, professionals.”September 21, 2010 3:40 PM
Eric P. said…
>”and why would you pay someone to be there when there are plenty of certified, qualified EMT’s that would gladly volunteer their time for an event…”
The TMM business model in a nutshell, eh? Whatever happened to “The laborer is worthy of his hire”?
> “and people who are “paid, certified, qualified professionals” on the rig aren’t always”…
Well, are they or aren’t they? Or is HA lying to us again?
> “how do you think they get qualified? by practicing on people as medical students…”
Lawyer joke: “He’s been practicing law for 15 years and hopes one day he’ll get it right.” Come on. Even medical residents don’t work on people without being supervised by a teacher with years of professional experience, so the point is moot.
> “And who cares if they asked interns, if they were certified EMT’s or Nurses or whatever…”
Color me skeptical, but if I was a certified EMT or RN I’d be out working as a professional (and probably getting paid nicely for it) instead of hanging around at an unpaid internship for teens trying to learn about integrity from documented liars.September 21, 2010 4:46 PM
heartsfire said…
Brie I participate in a 2 week long high endurance highly challenging medieval war like scenario. It is arguably less demanding than ESOAL as there are people bringing the participants water and pickles and breaks every 10 minutes. There are ALWAYS PAID PARAMEDICS, DOCTORS, and NURSES on staff. The group is a non-profit but we put value on our participants. There is usually an injury or 10 and there was one heart attack in the 39 years this event has been going on and frankly I feel far safer thanks to that. I work with 1 year med students. I would never let one diagnose me. I would likely never let one put an IV in my arm because they aren’t very good. Same with first year nurse students. Ever had someone take 6 times to put an IV in your arm? It’s A)Not fun and B) can cause you damage for MONTHS! Frankly that at this point TM is still “practicing” on it’s interns. That they won’t (can’t/are too lazy (sin) to) pay a dedicated Ambulance for a LTE where even DAVE admits someone will probably break an arm or worse shows they have no respect or love for their interns. I pray daily for the Interns. I hate that they treat them so disrespectfully and demand that you do things their way when their way isn’t GOD’s way. That they try to lie to the interns and say that it is the way Godly people behave (when it’s the way of a false god called religion) kills any credibility they could ever have.September 21, 2010 7:59 PM
Brandon said…
@Eric P, I gave up a really lucrative offer to work as a software designer fresh out of highschool to attend the Honor Academy. I also closed down a rather successful small business I had been running for a number of years so that I could go. Some of us don’t care about the money we could be making in light of the big picture.
@heartsfire, if someone wants to be paid, pay them. If someone equally as qualified would rather volunteer, what’s wrong with that? I’m a volunteer youth pastor, and a paid worship leader. Should my church not have a youth pastor unless they can pay for it? I’m more than happy to volunteer my time and skills to them.September 22, 2010 11:50 AM
Brandon S said…
Again,
It is on a volunteer basis, so if they have you roll down a hill and puke, what’s the big deal. If you sign up for a sky diving lesson, they have you jump out of a plane!
Has anyone died at ESOAL? Broken any bones? Had a heart attack? I do not believe they have.
So basically they get dirty, have an upset stomach and are sleep deprived, and all by there choosing…And to top it off if they ring out (choose to quit) they could go shower clean up and eat! What is all this hype about????
Again I am looking in H.A. for my younger brother. And this seems to be something that he/or I would sign up for in a heart beat!September 22, 2010 11:54 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Brandon S – Absolutely, many people have had broken bones. Have they always gotten medical care for that? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I also know for certain that an intern (not during ESOAL, but under another dangerous TM activity) had a heart attack. A member of our community actually drove them to the hospital. Its amazing no one has died. But even if they had, would that really change your mind? Or would you just chalk it up to, “Well, they knew it would be hard!”
I think you are missing the most dangerous element which is that all of this is equated to your spiritual growth.September 22, 2010 12:01 PM
Brandon said…
Recovering Alumni.
Please see my blog from Teen Mania Deletes Response Website
September 22, 2010 12:23 PM
Brandon said…September 22, 2010 12:45 PM
Eric P. said…
@Brandon — Watchman Fellowship’s list of Destructive Cult Tactics (which I’ve linked often before) has this item on the list:
Financial Commitment: A member may burn his bridges to the real world by donating earnings, savings, and possessions to the cult, thereby limiting escape possibilities due to a lack of money in order to start over again.
So it doesn’t surprise me a bit that they were willing and able to con you like that. In fact, it reinforces the case that HA is dangerous and manipulative. (Go read the whole list and you’ll see it’s essentially a description of ESOAL and/or HA as a whole.)September 22, 2010 1:03 PM
Brandon said…
@Eric P so you’re saying that volunteering my skills towards something I believe is beneficial or further’s God’s kingdom is wrong and a tactic of cults? I’m just wondering considering I donate time and money, and tithe to my church. Is that a cult? Should I demand to be paid for the time I volunteer to them as a youth pastor? Or perhaps my marketing consulting that I offer them freely?
I’m seeing a lot of circular logic here…September 23, 2010 5:23 PM
Shannon Kish said…
Brandon, there is a difference between volunteering and TM.
You are NOT volunteering if you are paying to work there. You pay TM to work for TM.
When I volunteer at Theatre Huntsville, I do not pay them nor do they pay me.September 23, 2010 5:52 PM
Brandon said…
@Shannon Kish, you do not pay to work at TM. You pay for classes, food, room/board, LTEs, and whatnot. I worked at TM because it offsets the cost of the internship (which can be extremely high) and I got great experience that has helped me find work, even in a down economy.September 24, 2010 9:24 AM