Why Did David Hasz Lie About His Rental Income?

WOW.

That’s all I can say.

Sneaky sneaky. I wonder, though, what the ethical/moral issue in is regards to making money off of his rental properties…?

My guess, Layne, is that it’s a moral issue because he continually tells interns “If God isn’t specifically calling you away, you should be staying a second/third year,” when he gains personally by them staying since they rent from him if they stay.

I can’t believe ra has gone this far into this, but then again…

Making money from rental property is not immoral. I agree with what Renae said and also, Dave Hasz is a LIAR!! This man who abuses teenagers in the name of God and demands this life of perfection from them, straight up lied about his income from these properties. W T F dude??

WHY is it that he lied? Apparently HE feels it is something to hide…

He said he wasn’t making anywhere near that referring to the current year. Things change, but your hatred hasn’t. Anyone can twist peoples words for a cause. Persecutions will come. Heal up ya’ll

Really Anon, you can’t? I can. Why Because when I was and intern it was drilled into my head by Dave Hasz that honor and integrity are traits exhibited by awesome and Godly people and that Dave was an ‘awesome and godly’ person who would ALWAYS tell the truth – even if it ment a negative out come for him.

This was so drilled into me, that to this day, if someone lies to me, or breaks a promise I am devastated. If I though that Dave of all people was being less than completely honest with me, you bet I’d be looking into it.

Looks like that was 2 lies Dave got caught in today…

Phoenix, I just don’t find it ethical to be putting up tax returns of him.

It wouldn’t have been if RA put up the full forms with his address, ssn dob…but cropping it down to the pertinent info – there’s nothing wrong with that. In fact this is public info that anybody interested can get.

But, even if he is making 160,000 a year everyone has to get payed, he was just smart to rent housing, I am also pretty sure he puts money back in TMM.

So why lie…?

ps just to put things into perspective for you – the average income in the US for a family of 4 is about $50,000. Quite the income for someone working at a non-profit. Hmm

And yes – everyone has to get paid. How much do interns make again?? Oh wait – that money goes to Dave. Interesting point you’ve made Anon. Well done!

Oh snap – sorry for the redundant comment. Just move on to points 2 and 3.

Well there are around 100 paid positions at TM so that is a lot of money to pay people, there is a reason why interns don’t get payed do you get payed to go to school. They are also VOLLUNTEERING.

Clearly your missing the point. Why does Dave feel the need to lie about his income? The income that is over 3x the median family income…

Anon- And what is the AVERAGE pay of the REST of the TM staff after you figure Dave, Heath, Ron, and Katie, ect? I know how much most make and it’s less than HALF the national average for a family. Hell most of these employees don’t make 20k a year. That’s appalling. For a head of TM to make THAT MUCH when his employees couldn’t even afford normal properties.

Also of the rental properties not being taken up by official interns now those properties are being taken up largely by employees that were once interns and have never left.

Anonymous– They aren’t just volunteering, they are paying. To the tune of $8000 or more per student per year. People who give money to an organization (especially a nonprofit) have every right to know how their money is being used. If the group leaders lie on public record about how the money is used, that is a serious breach of ethics.

General rule: Don’t give money to liars. Especially not to liars who talk a lot about integrity and honesty.

Anon, you still haven’t answered the main question. Please stop dancing around it. If you think Dave didn’t do anything wrong, then WHY DID HE LIE ABOUT IT?

Hi RA,
I visit your site on a daily basis and agree with much of what you say.
I am not meaning this in any sort of demeaning way, but how does a post like this encourage the healing process?

People who give money to an organization (especially a nonprofit) have every right to know how their money is being used. If the group leaders lie on public record about how the money is used, that is a serious breach of ethics.

VERY well said, Eric

Well I gave them 4 years of money, and I am grateful that I went there, if I did not go there who knows where I would be today.

Anon 2:39– Are you familiar with the Sunk Cost Fallacy? The fact that you’ve invested so much time and money in HA automatically causes you to be less willing to admit their flaws. Nobody likes the thought that they gave money to liars and swindlers… but we can’t get away from the issue that here, Dave Hasz is very evidently “intending to deceive”!

Anon, I know where you will be in a couple of years. You will be right here on this blog spilling your guts with everyone else that figures out that TM/DH/RL/HS is a fraud and has corrupted their Christianity.

mouse for the win

Mouse, I will not be spilling my guts over this “recovery” blog, He might have just got confused on the question. It can happen when you get asked a completely random question….just saying 🙂

If somebody randomly asked me how much money I make in a year, I might be off by 1 or 2,000 dollars. Not by $80,000.

If Dave was caught off guard by the question, he could have said, “I don’t know,” or “I can give you a ballpark figure” or even “I don’t see why that completely random question is important.” Instead, he said, “I am not collecting anywhere close to that.” He gave the impression that he was making much less when actually he was making more. That’s intent to deceive; therefore that’s a lie; therefore Dave Hasz is a liar. End of story.

Please, Pro-TM people, get a grip and realize how pathetic your attempts to excuse Hasz’s dishonest behavior are sounding! The question is not “Did he lie?”; the question is, “What are you going to do now that you know you’re learning about spiritual integrity from a liar? Deny the truth, or face the consequences?”

I’m often confused when asked if I made ~$160,000 in the last fiscal year.lol And I’ve never know Dave to ‘be confused’ on anything – you are giving him too much credit. It really is ok to question him – or anyone for that matter.

And it wasn’t a random question – there was a blog post prior to the call with finical questions listed. Not only that any good business person can give you rough numbers on business earnings or expenditures – ie TM spent roughly $40,000 on ‘off campus’ housing.

I have to wonder what his motivation to lie is – it appears that it is just greed… No interns means less $$ at TM, ie less money for him (or worst case no job) and lots of empty rental property in Lindale TX….

Really? Trying to get Anon to understand our side is similar to beating your head against a brick wall in order to get rid of a headache.

Who cares what Anon thinks? He/she doesn’t seem interested in anything other than trolling.

Always follow the money 🙂

Has anyone checked Teen Mania on Charity Navigator?

TM only rates two stars….hmmm I wonder why?

Keep up the good work RA!

@ Anon ~ He doesn’t sound confused on the audio, and definitely didn’t sound confused. What is clear is that, at best, he has no understanding of his personal finances, in which case, he should NOT have given an answer anyway. I’m reluctant to believe that he is ignorant, since he has to sign tax forms….tax forms that are a matter of public record, and tax forms that are a matter of personal finance.

The whole conflict is that he is making money off of a non-profit he works for. In this case, it IS actually a direct conflict of interest. He did not own those properties prior to employment (which would negate the conflict), and he is profiting directly from them. And if he was granted those properties (which I do NOT know if he was or not) as part of a compensation, or paid well below market value for them, then that is HIGHLY unethical. I’ve worked for companies that have fired high-ranking employees for pulling such duplicitous stunts. It wouldn’t fly in the corporate world. Non-profits should, and do, comply to higher standards than the corporate sector. Can you see why this is a problem?

That being said, I understand why you are defending it and playing devil’s advocate. I hope you are able to be at peace with your experience at TM even while we are not.

First, I want to address the past tense of the verb “pay.” It is spelled “paid” NEVER “payed.” If you want people to take you seriously, you must first learn to spell (especially when you’re debating issues online). Secondly, I want to say I’m disappointed in Dave Hasz for his absolute horrible display of his intent to deceive. And thirdly, I would like to congratulate RA for her courageous efforts and great work in the investigating department. Well done.

I know that this post is about Dave Hasz lying, and while I am appalled at that (although by now it’s definitely to be expected) what I am REALLY appalled by is the fact that he gets an $80,000 salary!! WTF?!? And that’s before his “rental properties” that he makes an additional $80,000-ish on?! So much for everyone sacrificing to be there! $40K or $50K wouldn’t even constitute ‘sacrificing’ in my book. But you know what we made for a full year of work as a Staff Associate at TM? A whopping $9,500. Before Taxes. After two years of paying to be there. WHAT a SHAM. (And most of us are so damn young and inexperienced that we really didn’t know any better!) Btw, Anonymous @ 11:06AM – we weren’t paying for a school, we were paying to WORK after being falsely advertised to. And how much are you really ‘volunteering’ when you don’t want to be there anyway, but you stayed because of a commitment – a commitment that Dave Hasz drilled into our head about ‘keeping our integrity’ and ‘honoring our commitments’. Who’s the one with integrity now?

At the end of that second clip, he refers to the fact that his rental properties need not be a conflict of interest for IRS claiming qualifications. Um, yeah right – how are they NOT a conflict of interest?!

Eric referenced youarenotsosmart.com yay! I think the post entitled “Cults” is equally relevant… www.youarenotsosmart.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/cults/

It begins with…

“The Misconception: You are too smart to join a cult.

The Truth: Cults are populated by people just like you.”

RA, I think you might be onto something here but I think there is more information that we must know. First of all, how much property is he leasing? $80,000 might not be bad if it is a large amount of property. Secondly, does he own these properties? Is he paying mortgages? If his mindset when discussing what he “made” is what he nets from the property, minus upkeep and his mortgage, he might not have felt as if he was lying or even attempting to deceive.

Most people, when asked what they make don’t think in terms of gross income, they think in terms of net, or what they actually spend. Just a thought

I don’t mind at all that Dave Hasz makes money off his rental properties. Heck, I don’t care if he makes a million bucks off them. I also don’t care if he fed interns cat food.

What I care about is that it would appear that he lies about incredibly concrete, inconsequential, PROVABLE things.

What does this say about the things he swears to that are not so concrete or well documented?

It’s all a matter of integrity, which Dave doesn’t appear to have when it comes to talking to members of this community.

I do think CultureCritic has a point… if Dave was thinking of net profit and the tax information is on gross profit, it might make sense for him to say something like “I’m not making anywhere near that” and not actually be intending to deceive.

But on the other hand, he knew RA was talking about what he made on his tax return, and he didn’t bother to clarify if it was net or gross profit. That alone, I think, makes the point that he was deliberately intending to deceive.

He also could have said, “Oh, you mean gross revenue? I thought you meant net income, which is why I said it wasn’t anywhere near $80k.”

He is a smart guy. If that was his thought process, he could have said so.

Hmm… I disagree with CultureCritic’s point. Knowing one’s annual income from a source doesn’t mean that you have that just sitting in a bank account. Regardless if Dave has a mortgage on properties it’s still income – if/when he sells the house(s) he gets to keep any profits.

It’s kind like saying that I should qualify for food stamps because I only have $20 in my checking account, even though my income is 2x the poverty level.

I don’t think its so much what his personal finances are, so much as 1) he appears to be double dipping (not honorable) and 2) as LizBR pointed out he lie’s about silly, yet very provable things (also not honorable).

These are sociopathic trades (not saying that he is a sociopath or is not), it makes you wonder if this is someone you’d want to model your live after.

My point is just that he could have continued to think you were referring to net income. If he thought you were both talking about the same thing then he wouldn’t have clarified.

Does anyone know home much property he is renting to TM? Without that information we can’t truly know if he is taking advantage or providing a deal. I have known other leaders of ministries to provide deals to the ministry in order to keep the ministry floating. While I seriously doubt this is the case in this situation, without this knowledge we can’t know if he did something illegal.

The only thing that can be said is he lied which can easily be patched with an “I didn’t understand your question” fix. Don’t you agree?

Hey CultureCritic – good questions and thoughts. Here’s my take, for what its worth:

1) When I read the tax return number to him, that was the time he could have said, “Oh, I thought we were talking net income.”

2) I asked him how much he is currently renting to TM and he would not answer the question. At one point, he did say that the value of rental property he owns/owned is “significantly higher” than $400,000.

3) You are right – we can’t know if he is giving TM a “deal” or not. But to me, that is not the issue. The issue is that its a HUGE conflict of interest for him to tell interns that it is God’s will for them to stay a 2nd or 3rd year, when he is directly reaping financial profits from every intern that makes that decision. Does that make sense?

Personally, I could not in good conscience give people “spiritual advice” while knowing that if they follow that advice, I will make money off of them.

It is certainly not illegal, but I believe it is unethical.

Pheonix, I don’t think you understood what I was saying. First of all, its not income, its an investment. I am not saying that he doesn’t benefit from it, just that it is not gauranteed. It is feasible for him to take the question as how much he was making off the property which could easily be equated with how much was going into his pocket at the end of the day. Look, I am not by any means a supporter of DH or TM, I do however try to look at things objectively and without all the information I tend to withold judgement.

There is nothing illegal or immoral about leasing his property to TM as long as he is following that 3 step process he outlined above and receiving fair market value. Just my humble opinion

I am sorry, I keep commenting about the previous post. I don’t think I am as fast as you guys 🙂

RA- I agree but that is no different for 2nd or 3rd year interns then it is for 1st year interns. His livelihood is based on making sure spots are filled, not just with rental income but with first year interns as well. I have major problems with telling every intern that it is God’s will that they attend TM, but that is not unique to TM, unfortunately ministries have been playing that card unfairly for years. We hear pastors speak from pulpits and solicit money all the time. I agree that it is shady but that is how churches and ministries survive

Um, yes and no…it IS an investment and he’s basically doing the equivalent to insider trading – or at least stacking the deck. As RA pointed out his ‘spiritual advice’ correlates with his financial gain (again not honorable).

If he rented out his property to another church/non-profit, or just the general public it would be his own business and no one would care. But the fact of the matter is he rents it out to the company he works for, ‘recommends’ people to stay for another year or two at $8k a pop knowing that he’s going to see some if that money in his salary AND as ‘rental income’. It starts to move from ‘investment’ to ‘shooting fish in a barel’.

For someone who rants about honor and integrity and lords over people with little to mercy it is not out of line to ask these sort of questions. There was a chance to say he didn’t understand the question, or clarify points or answers but he chose to lie either out rightly or by omission. I think it is completely within reason to hold him accountable, using the same measure he once held us to.

To Dave a lie is a lie – no justification. He says he lives his life above reproach – but this is not above reproach.

if you really want to do your homework then check out the Smith county’s property appraisal site.
also check with the state site to see if he is a registered agent with any other company (although I doubt he would create a pseudo company, cause thats just slimey)

I do see it as an ethincal dilemma. Most corps do not allow this type of thing.

I think I am more upset that maybe the actual residents and businesses of Lindale should profit from Teen Mania. The town already has a view that TM doesn’t contribute much to the community. (Interns don’t leave tips and don’t tithe to the churchs they crowd) Why not spread the wealth to the residents and pour some income to the local owners by renting their properties?

I’m just glad that when you google David Hasz this posting is a top result.

Wow. I never would have put the two together.
Dave was/is so stern about if God hasn’t called you to leave the H.A. you should stay. Which is just a really weird theology in the first place. But it doesn’t look to be a theology at all…
I really pray Dave takes a step back and realizes the very stupid things he is doing and repents.

@TruthInLove – If there we a LIKE Button I would press that about your comment.

Dave Hasz is a fraud. From his actions he cares only about his bottom line.

@phoenix
i try to stack the deck with my investments. why would i choose high risk investments when there are guaranteed money makers available?

would an investor ever look at a deal and go “hmm, yeah. that looks like a guaranteed win. i think i’m going to look for something a little more middle of the road. i want to be able to lose money in this deal too”

i’ve got this sweet gig going right now. i go to this building every day and sit in a chair, and they give me money for it! every time! it’s incredible! like shooting fish in a barrel.

This is a pretty hard post to swallow. My internship was 100% amazing and I loved it and learned a lot. Looking back, I can see that the reason for that was because I was (by the grace of God) completely surrounded by amazing people who loved the Lord and loved people. My CA and the other 17 or so interns in my core were so loving and non-judgmental and great. Many of them are still among my best friends today (a decade or so later). My job placement and the staff and interns I worked with there were very genuine also. I chose not to do ESOAL and no one even blinked about it. I have low blood sugar and had to eat crackers and drink juice on fasting days and I never got so much as a dirty look. So I was blessed, although I see now that others did not have the same experiences I did.

I look back on my time at TM with fondness because of the things I learned from the people that I was surrounded by. And yet I can still look back and see that there were hints of things that were not right. None of those things were clear to me then…I did not know Ron or Dave personally. They were just lecturers that we went and listened to before we headed off to our other responsibilities. I actually thought that Ron was a little wackadoo but I didn’t think it was in a harmful way, just a ‘too far removed from mainstream society to know what’s really going on way.’ But I have been lurking here for a while and these posts of RAs have been really helpful to me to sort out my feelings and figure out what was right and what was wrong. At this point, I am grateful that I emerged from my two years at the HA unscathed and probably actually better for my time there, but I would not encourage anyone else to attend. I see now that at the roots there are some things that are inherently wrong, and I could have had a very different experience, had it not been for God’s protection on my life. To those of you who were seriously hurt, I am so sorry and I hope that you are able to find healing in Him. Thanks RA.

Little goose you thank you for this comment! *HUGS*

RA at 1:37, thanks for giving me permission…lol

@charlie brown – I think you missed the unethical part.

Congratulations David Hasz.
You have just joined the ranks of the good christian folk before you that have lied publicly upon their honor as a truth telling follower of Christ.
Wikepedia doesn’t yet have your name on the list, but I imagine one day it just might.

For anyone interested in the list, here is the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_evangelist_scandals

Wow. I just stumbled onto this site a few days ago, and it’s been really valuable to read so many similar experiences to my own. This post, however, floored me. I still retained a modicum of respect for the Hasz before I saw this. Even if he believed that he could justify his answer because of a great discrepancy between net and gross income from the properties, that move goes totally against what he presents as his, and what should be your staunch beliefs.

Everyone makes mistakes, I grant you. We are all hypocritical in some action at some point at of some time. On an objective level I wholeheartedly believe this to be the case. But the visceral evidence of David Hasz casually “intending to deceive” was bit “staggeringly cathartic.”

I am an Finance Director who works for a major corporation. I have experience in Audit as well as Finance. If I were to audit these transactions, I would first see if Dave followed the proper disclosure policies that the ministry has. It seems to me based on the information provided that he has. First of all they were not hidden as they were disclosed on Teen Mania’s statments. If he intended to hide them then they would not appear for each of you to comment on. Secondly, most people I deal with regarding finances discuss their net income, not their revenue. Obviously, the value of property and the loans that Dave would have had to take out in order to purchase the properties would have to have been significant. Therefore, he is undertaking a lot of risk if the value of real estate turns against him, which appears to have been the case based on the state of housing in the US. Teen Mania actually may benefit from this as he has provided stable housing for the people in the program and at no additional cost other than normal rental costs. Does he benefit from the rentals? One will not know until he sells the properties. However, he carries risk of possible bankruptcy if prices go against him as well as he has to make morgage payments that include interest charged by the banks. If he were really trying to deceive it would not have been disclosed on the Teen Mania statements in the first place. As for his salary being extreme. That also appears to be incorrect. 78k from Teen Mania for a core person who has been with the ministry for around 15 to 20 years is by no means extreme. In fact it is essential for any organization to meet the needs of it’s core employees.

Anonymous – First off, it doesn’t change the fact that he flat out lied about it on the conference call.

Second, I hardly trust the so called “disclosure policies” of a ministry filled with yes-men liars who’ve already proven they cover each others backs instead of stand for the truth.

Third, I’ll bet they try to hide them in the future. They never expected to be “caught” and I’ll bet the amounts are NOT disclosed on future returns if at all possible.

Fourth, he is not taking any “real” risk when he knows Teen Mania will continue to rent from him AND he tells people that God wants them to stay at TM for a 2nd year, ensuring a fresh batch of tenants every year.

Fifth, I agree that his salary is not extreme given his role.

Anonymous, it’s not clear from your comment how familiar you are with the Honor Academy. We are not saying Dave was unethical from a business standpoint here. But he preaches a much higher level of standard for personal behavior than what is required by law and demands that standard from everyone under him. By this standard, any attempt to give anything other than the full, absolute truth is a lie. A person should always give the full truth, even to their own hurt. A leader should exemplify the highest moral behavior because his or her lowest standard will be their followers’ highest standard. People in this community have spent YEARS feeling they could never measure up to this standard and were not good enough in God’s eyes as a result. Now we come to this sketchy exchange with Dave where instead off being committed to only speaking absolute truth at all costs, he either spoke authoritatively on a subject about which he was uninformed or he made some attempt to obscure thefacts. In either event, he did not practice the “leadership principles” he has demanded everyone else live up to for years.So unless there is some possible way that what he said was the absolute truth, by his own definition he is a liar and bad leader. That is what we are finding hypocritical.

Julie, I am only vaguely familiar with the Honor Academy. I went with Teen Mania on several missions trips at the beginning of the ministry. I do know Dave from years ago and I believe I know what his standards are. I agree he was misleading during the questioning. It sounds to me that he was not ready for a question of that type. Talking about one’s finances are in my opinion is very personal. So yes, I believe he made a mistake during the questioning. However, to go to the extreme that people are taking this issue when in fact he had disclosed it in the first place seems to be overkill. We do all make mistakes and that is what the grace of Jesus is all about. This applies even to leaders at Teen Mania. I have not spoken to Dave over 10 years, but even he deserves God’s grace, regardless of what was taught at the Honor Academy. At the end of the day, we are all hypocritical and with sin. I believe Jesus put it best, “He without sin cast the first stone.” I know in my experience with Teen Mania, I felt that what was being taught at the time was very legalistic as many of the bloggers seem to be relating. I believe you will find that in many parts of the church and lots of ministries. So you have to learn from the experience and choose grace.

Anon financial advisor- I would say that you have not read the blog very well if you have not found that we first extended grace. Once you go to the person privately then with another then you bring it to the church body as your grievance. This is a very biblical standard when it comes to a constant stream of the same painful actions. He has consistently dodged questions to the people who were under him which are people he IS accountable to because his actions caused harm. Without a true apology and showing how he is not causing further harm it is the duty of those who were caused harm to bring it to the body of believers, given the extent to which this organization is out there in this case that means blogs news stories and other things to show the harm caused by his and the ministry’s actions.

Anonymous, you said:
“We do all make mistakes and that is what the grace of Jesus is all about. This applies even to leaders at Teen Mania. I have not spoken to Dave over 10 years, but even he deserves God’s grace, regardless of what was taught at the Honor Academy. At the end of the day, we are all hypocritical and with sin. I believe Jesus put it best, ‘He without sin cast the first stone.'”

Now I happen to agree with you 100% here. But the Honor Academy does not. There is no grace for anyone at HA until you have repented and completed a probationary period. We are just holding Dave to the standard he has taught us! Does this standard seem harsh/ridiculous/legalistic/ungodly? Yes, of course. But HA interns and staff have all been held to this standard, forced to repent for giving the “appearance of evil” (it doesn’t even actually have to be sin!) and then required to complete some type of probation to prove the sincerity of their repentance. The process cannot be waived, even for the most minor, silly offense. You should read through some of the true stories and see how much grace is offered to interns for ridiculous infractions of the pseudo rules.

Julie

It does sound that you and the others were dealing with a lot of legalistic religious rules and requirements. This in my opinion is a counterfeit to the grace we live in through Christ. I went to Christian University and saw many of the same things you are describing, however, not to the same extent. It is Religion not a Relationship with Christ. I felt just as strongly years back about what I saw that was wrong. I learned that there are many passionate people who are very strong in their belief in leadership positions in Churches and ministries that do not have a very firm foundation in Grace. You can be very passionate and very organized and know a lot of scripture, but you can also be very wrong. You are not going to change them until God reveals His true grace to them. So I would challenge you and who may have been hurt by the experience that you have been through in the Honor Academy not to walk according to their standards, but to walk according to the grace of God. Not to say, that their is not legitimate pain involved. The truth is God will have to make the changes in them and what you may end up learning is how to walk in his Grace and forgiveness as a result of going through that Legalistic program. It is actually a good lesson to learn. The church is filled with people who do not walk in grace. I wish you well.

Good work putting this together. It’s important for ministries to disclose their income.

After reading several comments on this site, I think there are many things at play here and the fact is based on what I’ve read so far, no one knows all the details. My experience at the HA was pretty good and I’m glad I went. I, in fact, was TURNED DOWN for a second year. So that really doesn’t jive with the whole “stay so I can charge rent” thing. But who knows. If Dave in fact lied…then yeah accountability is important. In fact, I feel the lack of accountability in general is the reason for moral depravity in every aspect of life, professionally and personally. Accountability leads to consequences, which in turn should lead to a changed life, basic math right? I agree with the anonymous post on June 26 about the investment, expense and risk on Dave’s part as a property owner. I also agree that services could also be part of pay as stated on FB. If a tornado rolls through GV and destroys one of his properties, if one of them burns down, if the pipes burst…etc…etc…those things are in fact, Dave’s problem and expense. He has to pay property taxes, insurance and improvements on top of basic maintenance. Also, at the end of the day, he is the one that is legally bound to those mortgages until they are repaid if they are in fact in his name. Yes, I agree that he could have miscommunicated and misunderstood which income you were asking for. When people ask me about my annual income, I always talk about my net income because it’s the only one that matters…to me. Example, so I was off on my income when I applied for my FAFSFA by over 5k, probably closer to 7k…yeah thats like over a quarter of my income. Not half but still substantial. Why? Because while working for my current employer I had to subcontract with a vendor while working at the same place. I totally forgot about that additional income! Needless to say, I lost my Pell Grant…lol. Without all the facts, it seems premature to call anyone a liar. Even if it seems blatantly obvious. You might be right and that’s ok, I don’t think anyone, even TM supporters would argue that Dave should be held accountable if he is in fact guilty. Lord knows we were, right? It just seems like there is so much anger and bitterness. I’ve struggled with anger and bitterness my whole life so it’s not like I’m trying to point fingers, invalidate experiences people have had or make excuses for anyone. It isn’t so much what is being said as it is how it’s being said. I don’t make excuses for anyone, including myself. The truth is important and I don’t feel that any leadership should be “above the law”. I just feel that this is far too ambiguous at this point to be drawing concrete conclusions. I would rather “error” on the side of grace than not. Just seems what I would like done if it were my character being questioned. I am a firm believer that the truth ALWAYS comes out, it’s not if but when.

Whoa. Chill out. Christian leaders make a LOT of money and Dave Hasz is not the only one benefiting from this business. Do you hate Benni Hinn? He owns a private jet.

I’m aware that TM makes $$$ from interns. But remember interns and those that stay for 2, 3, or 4+ years CHOOSE to on their OWN…most of them believe “God” directed them to stay. So please, stop with the pointing of fingers, and remember that we are solely responsible for our decisions.

PS: I only stayed 1 year in case you were wondering.

I don’t have a problem with people in Gods kingdom being financially successful, its the dis-honesty that is the issue. Wish Dave Hasz would refund me all my tuition.

Was there ever an answer to the original question made in the call about whether the amount of money Dave Hasz’s made at TM (whether the exact figure was ever discovered or properly disclosed or not) was ethical?

My first year on staff at Teen Mania (August 2006-August 2007) I was paid a salary of $9,500 per year, before taxes. The second year I was paid $10,500. In addition to this I received compensation in the form of college tuition at Liberty University, which offered courses to TM staff members for free (thus it did not cost TM anything). Liberty was the only choice offered by TM to staff members if they wanted to have their tuition covered by TM, unless they made a case to upper-level management that Liberty did not offer courses that would lead to the completion of their degree, which is what I did for my second year on staff. So in addition to my salary I received about $3,000 worth of tuition at Tyler Junior college. I was not offered any health insurance.

For two years I managed to live on $700-800 per month. I remember having lunch at Applebee’s in Lindale with some other staff members and one of them joking about no one ordering drinks, saying, “TM staff members wouldn’t pay $2 for liquid!” His joke would have been more funny to me now if it wasn’t true. This once-a-month indulgence of eating at out at a restaurant was overspending as it was.

When I went to have my car registered in Texas, the reality of paying taxes on a vehicle caught me by surprise. “Three hundred dollars???” I said, in shock, back to the lady behind the window at the tax assessor’s office. That was nearly half of my income for the month! I handed her my credit card. “I guess I will just eat a lot of boxed macaroni this month.” I was in no position to ask my parents for any more money.

Later that month my rent cost went up by the surprise of my room mate being laid off along with a large number of others whose positions at the ministry had been cut because TM had gotten itself into a $3 million deficit. Obviously not from paying its staff members too much. (And who was asked to do extra EMERGENCY fundraising to fill in the gap for TM as quickly as possible? TM interns, who were already fundraising to raise their own support to be there. And work their asses off).

When I was a graduate intern living on campus we had a food allotment. This was essentially an allowance given back to the GI’s of the tuition they had paid to TM which would have been budgeted toward their cost of food in the cafeteria. The breakdown of what we received for meals was $1.25 for breakfast, $1.25 for lunch, and $2.00 for dinner. Anyone up for Hamburger Helper…again?

The burden of living with so little money while working 35 hrs a week and doing full time school (thus not having time for a second job to receive any supplemental income) is emotionally exhausting and wears you out psychologically.

So why was I crazy enough to choose to work to get paid so little for so long, after having paid to work for 3 years before that? One makes crazy decisions when they are “consumed by the call.” But hindsight is 20/20 (or getting there, with the help of a professional therapist).

I was at TM for five years and left almost five years ago and I still have anxiety when I shop at the grocery store for basic necessities. I am just starting to learn the importance of how to simply make a living for myself, and not feeling guilty making money or offering to work for others for free.