We’ve been talking about why the impossibly high standards at Teen Mania are so unhealthy. But, I can already hear the objections. “Many people can and do live up to these standards!” you say.
Many people live up to these standards for a while. I know I did. I can think of several reasons why people seem successful in this environment:
1) An overachieving nature
2) An overwhelming desire for approval from your peers (peer pressure) or leadership
3) An honest desire to do the right thing, to know God more, and a simple faith in what your leaders are telling you.
4) Others seem to hold to the standards effortlessly, but it’s usually just because their besetting sins aren’t as obvious. Things like pride, fear of man, worry, etc. don’t really show up on a rating chart.
5) Still others who may seem to have it all together are really just keeping their sin under wraps. Believe me, I was on the Honor Council.
I’m sure there are other reasons as well. Feel free to chime in with your insights.
The bottom line is that these are all short-term solutions to behavior management. They miss the point of having a relationship with Jesus.
Jesus did not die on the cross primarily so we could behave better. He died to bring us life – which is relationship with Him. Not a relationship with rules.
Colossians 2:23 – Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
24 comments:
Recovering Alumni said…
testing
September 17, 2009 12:05 PM
Noelle said…
Sin can be found everywhere, you have to be strong enough to keep yourself in check before God, not man. A time of consecration is a blessed thing and should not be loathed, but those seasons are not meant to last forever. The Internship is a time to lay a foundation, not to define who you are by having followed a bunch rules for a year. If that is what people take away and become resentful then it means your intent was to gain man’s approval and YOUR focus was not on a relationship with Jesus. Do not blame those leaders for your mis-perspective and lack of an ability to understand the purpose of the program. I agree, it can be a breeding ground for pride, which is dangerous…but that is an individual’s choice to oblige or not. If you did not, continue in your humility and pray for the others, and please grow out of the stage of blaming everyone else for where you are at. That is just as much of sin as pride, it is all equal in God’s eyes. If you were in search of perfection at Teen Mania then you are guilty of deifying man in the first place, and again, it is not the leaders’ fault that weak-minded people cannot think for themselves. At least they are trying to make a difference and I know that God will reward Ron Luce and his staff greatly for their service.
September 19, 2009 2:05 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Noelle,
I don’t usually indulge comments like this, but I’m in a good mood.
I am really troubled by the statement
“you have to be strong enough to keep yourself in check before God”
Since when are we expected to conquer sin on our own? If that’s Christianity, then we are doomed. We will never be strong enough.
And I will “blame” the leaders there for my “mis-perspective.” They TAUGHT IT TO ME.
” it is not the leaders’ fault that weak-minded people cannot think for themselves. “
That is hardly the case, Noelle. Interns are never encouraged to think for themselves – but only to tow the party line. Non-conformity is frowned upon.
As for the rest of your rant, you aren’t really addressing the substance of my post. When you are out of the internship for a couple of years, you’ll probably have a different perspective.
September 19, 2009 7:23 AM
Anonymous said…
Noelle, I want to comment on what you said:
“please grow out of the stage of blaming everyone else for where you are at. That is just as much of sin as pride”
Where does the Bible mention the “blaming others” is a sin? I admit that blaming others may not be productive, but I do not believe it is sin at all. Making up “sins” is part of the twisted, demented, legalistic mind-frame of Teen Mania that many of us are trying to recover from. This kind of thinking only breeds guilt and condemnation.
Furthermore, if someone genuinely has caused you pain, there is nothing wrong with blaming them for that. Just as it IS reasonable for a rape victim to blame the rapist for “where they are at,” it is also reasonable for a Christian to blame someone who spiritually abused them for “where they are at.”
Acknowledging that someone caused you pain is a vital step in healing from that pain.
Yes, you are right. God will reward Ron Luce and the TM staff for their service. He will also reward Recovering Alumni and all of us for our service. All followers of Jesus have the reward of eternal life. Beyond that, God doesn’t reward individuals for their deeds and no one comes out ahead of anyone else. Praise God for the grace system!
September 20, 2009 11:23 PM
Dan Hillman said…
Blaming others isn’t necessarily sin. But, falsely accusing someone of wrongdoing is sin. It is not a sin to accuse someone else of sin IF your attitude is right and IF you have legitimate evidence to support your claim. Charges should be specific; you shouldn’t just charge someone of sin just because something nonspecific about him bothers you.
Has the suspect in question violated God’s word? What is the Biblical name of the particular sin? What specific event happened that causes you to believe that the person in question committed that sin? Every matter should be established by the testimony of two or three truthful witnesses.
Furthermore, love covers over a multitude of sins.
Furthermore, I think it would be healthy to discuss in which circumstances, we are obliged to confront in private – per the teaching of Matthew 18, and in which circumstances it is acceptable – or even necessary – to confront in public.
In all things, let us remember Philippians 2.
“Mercy triumphs over judgment!”
October 2, 2009 4:53 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Dan,
Looks like you need to read my comment policy
I believe my charges are VERY specific. In many posts I’ve taken exact quotes from sermons or blog posts and explained why I feel they are incorrect.
The bottom line is you just don’t want anyone saying anything negative about Teen Mania. You can contort Scripture to justify your position all you want…Unfortunately, I don’t have the energy or time to refute every argument you come up with.
Does it matter to you that people have been severely wounded by this ministry? Do you have any comprehension that many of us have spent YEARS in despair, condemnation and guilt because of the misguided teachings we received there? At this point, it doesn’t seem like you do. Until you can respect that, I won’t be able to publish any more of your comments.
October 2, 2009 7:36 PM
Anonymous said…
The comments by those towing the TM party line are really getting on my nerves. How Christ-like to blame the victim….they use the Matt 18 to hide behind, but they aren’t admitting that HA victims have gone to leadership privately-as stated in numerous postings—and for example, a dear dismissed friend of mine went to leadership and confessed their sin, sincerely repented and were rewarded with a date before the Honor Court and shown NO mercy and then dismissed.
So enough postings about Matt 18 and the ‘proper’ way to deal with problems–THEY DON’T LISTEN OR CARE–they can only judge.
And yes, they will be rewarded by God..they will stand before the Throne and give an accounting for what they have done in the name of Jesus…and the reward may not be the one they are expecting…
October 31, 2009 12:23 AM
Dan Hillman said…
Recovering Alumni, et al,
Please note that on my 9/20 post, I was not “towing the TM party line.” I also was not blaming any victims or accusing any individuals of any particular sin. I challenge anyone to specifically show me just one statement I made on 9/20 that is not true. Further, note that on my 9/20 post, I did not make ONE accusation against anyone.
Yet, on 10/2, Recovering Alumni felt justified to accuse me, saying, “The bottom line is you just don’t want anyone saying anything negative about Teen Mania.”
Recovering Alumni, what do you really know about me? What do you know about my life and my heart? What evidence do you have to substantiate the accusation you leveled against me? What about my 9/20 post made you think that I don’t want anyone to ever say anything negative about Teen Mania? What causes you to think that I don’t care about your hurt? What makes you think that I’m not on your side?
Please, for Christ’s sake, repent of the false, unsubstantiated accusation that you leveled against me on 10/2.
And yes, I do care about the victims of Teen Mania, and I am not saying that Teen Mania should not be criticized. I see major problems with Teen Mania, and I do believe there is a need for Teen Mania to dramatically reform.
Thanks be to God for sending His Son to die on a rugged cross to save sinners like ourselves.
Proverbs 1:7, Proverbs 9:10, James 3:1-18.
God’s peace,
Dan Hillman
November 19, 2009 1:09 PM
Dan Hillman said…
My mistake on the dates. My comment was on 10/2 and RecoveringAlumni’s comment was also on 10/2.
November 19, 2009 1:12 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Dan,
You asked “What about my 9/20 post made you think that I dont want anyone to ever say anything negative about Teen Mania?”
Its common knowledge among interns and alumni that “portraying the ministry in a negative light” is considered wicked sin. Leadership consistently buttresses this claim by taking Matt 18 out of context. So, your comments seemed shorthand for this understanding in our community. To me, that sounds like towing the TM party line. I will address the Matt 18 passage in a future post to clear up any confusion.
“Further, note that on my 9/20 post, I did not make ONE accusation against anyone. “
And while you did not accuse me directly, your comments implied that my blame was misplaced, not substantiated with evidence, nor supported by testimony of others. All of which are patently false. In re-reading the conversation, perhaps you were speaking to the idea of placing blame in general (and not to the specific charges leveled in this post as I originally thought) in which case I misunderstood your original comments. And also in which case, your comments are non-sensical to the discussion at hand.
You also stated that “love covers a multitude of sins.” In the context of your post, that seems to mean that if we all loved the people and leadership of Teen Mania, we would not speak out. Which is again, placing blame on us – the victims.
Furthermore, nearly every time you have commented it has not been in support of the post – but in defense of TM:
http://teenmaniahonoracademy.blogspot.com/2009/09/jennifers-story.html#comments
http://teenmaniahonoracademy.blogspot.com/2009/07/pressure-of-performance.html#comments
http://teenmaniahonoracademy.blogspot.com/2009/06/bitter-rebellious-or-just-plain.html#comments
The link above answers this question “What about my 9/20 post made you think that I don’t want anyone to ever say anything negative about Teen Mania? What causes you to think that I don’t care about your hurt? What makes you think that I’m not on your side?”
You said: This is not so much a defense of Teen Mania as it is more an exhortation for each person to assume responsibility for themselves without taking on the mentality that you have somehow been victimized by the leaders of Teen Mania.
We have been victimized by Teen Mania. Denying that means you are NOT “on our side.” I will not apologize for anything I have said. Given your many comments, I do not believe I have misunderstood or mischaracterized your position.
November 19, 2009 1:36 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
In the last link I provided, you also said:
“Have you ever taught in a classroom? Maybe before you spend more time blogging about the awful, pernicious leadership of the Teen Mania leadership, you should try teaching for a couple years.”
Did I misunderstand that as well? Gimme a break, Dan.
November 19, 2009 1:40 PM
Dan Hillman said…
“And while you did not accuse me directly, your comments implied that my blame was misplaced, not substantiated with evidence, nor supported by testimony of others.”
My comments implied no such thing. If I ever accuse you, I will do it explicitly.
It appears that you read in between my lines and interpreted my meaning in a way that I did not mean for you to interpret. I was simply exhorting all readers to be careful to follow the teaching of Scripture when calling others out on sin. No more; no less.
Further, you are wrong that every time I commented I was supporting TM. Go see my comments on ESOAL – where I quote Colossians 2. I’m not out to defend TM, and I don’t have a vendetta against TM. I’m not trying to antagonize you, but I’m also not saying everything you might want to hear. I don’t fit into a simplistic category. I’m not angry and embittered against TM. And I’m not denying the truth that the TM leadership sins.
The truth remains that the assertion you made about me is objectively NOT TRUE.
As far as victimization is concerned, I firmly believe that the good news of the gospel – and the key to your recovery – is recognizing that Teen Mania can’t do anything to you that will take you out of the grace of God. I think that the key to your recovery is to recognize that as a man of God, you are not a victim of Teen Mania, but a favored child of God.
I’m not saying that the leadership of Teen Mania never sinned against you, or that you were never spiritually and emotionally wounded by Teen Mania. My point is that you haven’t been destroyed, and God loves you. Therefore, I believe you would do better to focus on God’s love for you than on all the ways you’ve been hurt.
As far as my comment about teaching, my point is not that you shouldn’t criticize Teen Mania for making an idol out of performance mentality. Indeed, this needs to be done. But it should be done in balance and with compassion. I believe – as much as they are sinful – the leaders of Teen Mania are trying to help people. Are they always compassionate? No. Do they believe some dangerous doctrine? Yes. Do they emphasize performance too much? Yes, but there are two sides to the whole performance discussion. God is a God of grace, but there is a “backbone” behind grace. God will not be mocked; a man reaps what he sows. This isn’t the TM party line; this is based on the Word of God. But even here, the point is not that we put our obedience in and get our blessing out. Rather, it is only that what we do matters, so we should not say, “Shall we go on sinning, so that grace may increase?” (Romans 6)
The leaders of Teen Mania bear God’s image. You are called to love them. If saying that makes me a person who is “towing the TM party line” then God forbid that I should ever cease to tow!
November 19, 2009 2:20 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Dan, I think on some things we may have misunderstood each other, but on other things I firmly disagree with you.
“I think that the key to your recovery is to recognize that as a man of God, you are not a victim of Teen Mania, but a favored child of God.”
Are you saying that being a victim and being a man of God are mutually exclusive? I call that denying reality. It doesn’t mean that I wallow in victimhood the rest of my life – but I acknowledge and call it what it is as a warning for others. And it will forever be a part of who I am.
I do not hate the leadership of Teen Mania. In fact, I have already written a post scheduled to publish tomorrow on grace for spiritual abusers. However, loving them and extending grace to them does not mean that I am silent about their abusive tactics. That is where we disagree.
The question isn’t “Does TM leadership sin?” Its “Do they consistently and routinely engage in harmful practices that bring serious damage on the interns?” I would answer a resounding yes. Being silent about those practices does nothing to make them go away, warn others or help others heal. All of which are the goals of this blog.
November 19, 2009 2:30 PM
Dan Hillman said…
Recovering Alumni,
Ok, please forgive me for making light of your victimization. As I think about it, it is entirely possible for a Christian girl to become the victim of rape, and it would be absurd to tell her, “Buck up! You’re a Christian – not a victim!”
Teen Mania’s vending machine theology is damaging people spiritually and emotionally. Trusting, naive people are being victimized.
Please forgive me.
I certainly do not condemn criticizing Teen Mania leadership for their sins, but I do exhort all who would do so to tread very carefully, lest you fall into the very sin that you are condemning in other people.
I’m not hurt, because I don’t even know you, and I’m quite used to people lobbing false accusations at me. But if I did know you and if I was more sensitive, it would bother me to be regarded as one who simply falls into the “pro-TM” category. In any case, I’m really not a pro-TM person. I believe TM has strengths and weaknesses and I believe they should be called out on their sins. Furthermore, denominationally, I’m a million miles away from where I was in my TM Pentecostal days, so to categorize me so simplistically based on a few things I said here and there is not right. I am a person – not a category.
November 19, 2009 2:42 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Thanks for your understanding, Dan.
I do agree that we should be careful in our accusations, which is why I have attempted to back up every one of my statements with fact. And my spouse regularly reminds me not to sit in judgment on them as people.
Based on your past comments, its been hard for me to see that you are not a pro-TM person. Of course, I don’t know you in real life and you haven’t really (before today) explained your issues with them – so how was I to know? I can only react to what you post here. Hopefully in the future you can flesh out some of your experiences with TM.
November 19, 2009 2:58 PM
Dan Hillman said…
“Of course, I don’t know you in real life and you haven’t really (before today) explained your issues with them – so how was I to know?”
Of course. This is why you should have refrained from accusing me. You should never accuse a person until you know that the person did something wrong. Lack of relevant knowledge is a horrible reason to accuse a person.
I’m not concerned here with my own desire to “win” or “be right.” It is not just me that I’m concerned about here. I see a horrible trend all over our culture of people hurling accusations at others without having any certainty of the truthfulness of their claims.
By the way, I asked for forgiveness. Am I forgiven?
November 19, 2009 3:11 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Of course, you are forgiven and I appreciate you recognizing the reality of our “victimhood.”
“It appears that you read in between my lines and interpreted my meaning in a way that I did not mean for you to interpret.” I will have to take your word on this one. If I misunderstood your intentions, I do apologize.
However, your comments APPEARED to attempt to silence those who have been hurt by the ministry and seemed dismissive of their position. Though you may not have intended it, many of your posts were offensive to those of us who have been hurt and I will aggressively moderate to make sure this is a safe place for people to turn to. Hopefully, that moderation will be unnecessary.
And please remember that we are a community in recovery – so many of us are still very sensitive. Using common TM doctrines that have been used to control and manipulate (like Matt 18) probably won’t be received well.
Also, to address this statement, “to categorize me so simplistically based on a few things I said here and there is not right.”
As the moderator of a blog, what else do you suggest I base my decisions on? It’s not like we can go out for coffee. My highest priority is making this a safe place for alumni to heal. I would rather err on the side of caution by banning commenters prematurely than allowing them to hurt others. I hope you can understand that.
November 19, 2009 3:41 PM
Dan Hillman said…
Recovering Alumni,
I have no problem with you banning me from your blog if you perceive that my rhetoric might be unnecessarily hurtful to other recovering alumni / present interns. You can do that – in order to protect people – without falsely accusing me. If you want me to go away, I will. My objection is that you made an assertion about me that is not true. A simple confession and request for forgiveness would be appreciated.
I would humbly submit to you that while making false claims about me (or anyone for that matter) might make certain people feel defended, appreciated, understood, and validated, it also seems dangerously close to saying that it is okay for embittered people to be bitter and that it is okay for people to lash out against anyone and everyone who says anything that even resembles Teen Mania. While the Teen Mania leadership has their sins (and I’m not minimizing them), Matthew 18 is still the Word of God. You don’t want to be in a position where you reject Matthew 18 out of hand – labeling those who preach Matthew 18 as part of the crowd that “tows the TM party line.” That would be of no benefit to you or anyone else. I’m not accusing you of doing this here. I’m just saying that you need to be careful to distinguish between Biblical exhortation and the TM party line, and this may even require you to acknowledge that not everything about the TM party line is wrong.
Anyway, I’d appreciate it if you would take me, Dan Hillman, for what I say and for what I do. Teen Mania is a small part of my life journey. If I say something unbiblical, feel free to rebuke me.
May God give us grace to live a cross-centered life. 1 Corinthians 2:2. I have to confess that I am often swayed more by this world than I am convicted by the cross. I want what I want – thank you very much. But Jesus bids me to come and die to my selfish ambition, vain conceit, prideful arrogance, and general rebellion. The crux of Christianity is quite literally the cross of Jesus Christ. We are forgiven and justified in Christ alone. The joy of the Lord is our strength. In Christ, we live and move and have our being. So, let us be thankful and worship God in reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.
God bless you.
November 19, 2009 5:10 PM
Dan Hillman said…
Recovering Alumni,
I somehow missed this.
“If I misunderstood your intentions, I do apologize.”
Apology accepted. You are forgiven. And I appreciate your character and humility to apologize. It speaks volumes to me of your character.
November 19, 2009 5:15 PM
Anonymous said…
Calling TM out to be held accountable for the abuse they commit and the damage they do so that people have a chance to heal and others might be warned away is important. Also I suspect there are many alumni and people who have been through similar teachings (perhaps not just TM) who are suffering and don’t understand why. I’ve found the discussions here to be informational and interesting even though I am no longer a Christian.
Please continue what you are doing. Christ was never one to shy away from calling a rock a rock and abuse in the name of God should not be hidden away behind a twisted use scripture.
November 19, 2009 8:33 PM
Anonymous said…
To the last anonymous, I’m curious just because my heart broke when you said you were no longer a Christian.
—
Do you believe you were once saved and are no longer going to heaven? Never saved at all, still believe in God but not Jesus (though you did mention Christ?) or still saved but was so sick of church and religion you gave up on it all?
I’m sorry this life has been so stinking confusing and abusive spiritually that you would stop wanting to be a Christian. I didn’t grow up in church, when I chose Christ I really chose Hiim, so I never had any of the confusing stuff happen, accept T.M. and there were a few times I almost turned away, I just couldn’t bring myself to deny God.
November 20, 2009 2:52 AM
Anonymous said…
I consider myself an agnostic now. My lack of belief in God is a separate thing from problems I have with certain aspects of the modern Evangelical Christian church. I didn’t stop being a Christian because of any spiritual abuse, I just came to a point where I no longer believed in God.
November 20, 2009 7:04 AM
Dan Hillman said…
Anonymous,
If you are not willing to discuss it, I won’t pursue it past this post.
At various times I have struggled with doubt, but then I remember Jesus. And there is just no way – in my mind – that Jesus (His birth, His life, His teachings, His death, and His historical resurrection) can be explained without God. Further, that the apostles were willing to risk their lives to propagate the gospel is significant evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.
So, if today you hear His voice, I urge you to harken to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
God bless you.
November 20, 2009 7:16 AM
Anonymous said…
Thank you for this blog. I am a Christian survivor
of spiritual abuse. I have never been to Teen Mania
but the experiences and patterns sound similar.
I think it’s great that people here realize that
God loves you, period. Not because of anything you
did or do or will do or won’t do. God is not
abusive. People are, Satan is, and our flesh
still has tendancies. Hold onto the fact that
Jesus loves you, period. I recommend searching the
Web for spiritual abuse sites and sites on grace
(of course use discernment). Here is a ministry
you might find helpful:
Living God Ministries (Aaron B…). Go to
the radio archives…
Jesus Himself was both spiritually abused by
the Pharisees and sexually abused as He hung
naked on the Cross being mocked. Abuse is
a terrible, satanic thing but God loves you…
It is not wrong to feel, acknowledge, or
discuss the hurt people do to you….forgiveness
does not mean ignore, pretend, sweep under the
rug, or blame yourself for it (I must have
deserved this).
Thanks
December 6, 2009 8:47 PM
