Would You Like to Roll Through Your Own Vomit?

Pereception is reality I guess….

ESOAL=Emotional Suffering & Outrageous Abuse of a Lifetime

I just wanted to say that was a very clever title and a brilliant first sentence.

Ewww! Rolling through other ppl’s vomit?! GROSS!

Z – It happens every year. I was just glad I opted out of ESOAL my year. Besides, as my story says, my year was one with having to work sometimes up to 96 hours straight no sleep. Thank God for the can of unbrewed coffee I kept in my backpack, and would munch on.

Haha, word got out that I was emetophobic, so the facilitators told me to run away if somebody started throwing up. At least there was that!

I had to ring out cause everybody was throwing up everywhere and I kind of had a mental breakdown (and, my foot got jacked).

I don’t think half the people I have told about ESOAL actually believe me. I don’t think they believe I actually rolled through people’ vomit. It is sad to see it is still going on. Except we threw up pizza – not rice.

This would be a splendid promotional campaign for the Honor Academy. I’d love to see it made into brochures or YouTube videos. Too bad it would conflict with their policy of keeping what happens at ESOAL a secret… hmm, now I wonder why they might have come up with that?

Also, let’s remember that ESOAL is completely optional. If you’d prefer not to roll through vomit, you’re perfectly free to be labeled a namby-pamby quitter who’s settling for shallow Christianity. There’s certainly nothing manipulative going on here or anything.

Any resemblance of ESOAL to the documented practices of cultic mind control is of course completely coincidental.

Hey, cool– I didn’t know steam could come out of my ears!

That has to violate so many health codes and public safety laws…

Doesn’t anyone read the whole blog?

“But what I learned was that I have a tendency to praise God in the good times and forget to call on Him and rely on myself when things get hard – and I should rely on Him all the time no matter what! I actually didn’t figure this out until my AP (accountability partner) mentioned at dinner that I could have forgotten to ask God to help me and give me strength to finish (she finished by the way). And it clicked and I figured out what I had done and that that was an area of my life I needed to work on – and I have. I’ve learned a lot from this LTE. It was intense and a lot happened.

After I rang out – there was more to ESOAL than ESOAL, there was the Service LTE going on at the same time – it was for those who quit or never even started so that they (we) had a part in ESOAL. The day after I rang out I had to make the breakfast for the remaining participants, strait up nasty (nutritious) LENTALS! They smelled bad and I had to make it for them to eat – they ate it!! But that’s all I’m going to say about the food. And I dusted Banana Leafs in the Global Expeditions Call Center! That was exciting.

But I know I could have made it I had just stuck it out and relied on God for my strength. What they tell you before ESOAL is – “the best way to finish ESOAL is to choose joy”. I did not; I chose the shower and the real food (which didn’t really feel like it was really).”

@ Anon 11:15

Wait…if interns don’t sign up to do ESOAL, or if they ring out, they have to do some kind of “Service LTE” weekend on campus? Can you please explain that one? I was unaware of that..and if they do have another LTE during ESOAL, is the other LTE optional like ESOAL, or mandatory?

Recovering… I really hope you arn’t calling me brain washed. Those thaings that I wrote down several months ago are still ture. I’m still learning about myself and how God works.

And the ends that I had definantly justified those means! Yeah ESOAL – most don’t understand it and apparently you do not. I take joy in what the Lord taught me though it.

And if we were a cult and brain washing people wouldn’t we be drinking Kool-Aid or someting??

May the Lord bless you and change your heart – obviously it’s been caloused.

Anon – Check the article I linked above about cultic mind control techniques. Your further quote shows exactly the effects they would be expected to produce.

Also note the manipulation implied in the final paragraph: “What they tell you before ESOAL is – ‘the best way to finish ESOAL is to choose joy.’ I did not, I chose the shower…” The OP stopped an “optional” (ha) abuse in favor of necessary hygiene, therefore they are made to question their spiritual dedication. That’s Brainwashing 101.

Anything that could make the abuses of ESOAL be thought of as positive is by definition twisted and wrong. They’re being told to roll in puke, for crying out loud! It’s called dehumanizing!!

Anon– I posted before your second comment and didn’t realize the OP was you; however, my comment can still pretty much stand as with a few tweaks (“you” for “they”).

I do encourage you to read the linked article about brainwashing and compare it to what happened to you at ESOAL. (In particular, see the section “Coercive Persuasion Techniques.”) I’m curious to hear what similarities and differences you observe.

A calloused heart wouldn’t care at all about strangers who are being made to roll in puke and think it’s godly.

So Eric P. your saying you guys care about her? Not sure a lot of “care” is going into your comments for her but more so telling her she is wrong and her feelings are wrong and what she learned is wrong. Isn’t it ironic that you would say those things to her but yet you all state that when you were at the HA people told you your feelings and what you learned was wrong? Seems like a double standard and I guess I don’t see the “care”. But then again like i said before, preception is reality to some people….

RA- try to read them with an open mind??? How can someones mind be open after what they just read in the comments here?! So what your saying is you meant what you said and the way you said it if it wasn’t Anon? Thats crazy….just crazy

RA the point is that maybe you should look at your delivery all the time, not just when your dealing with the person your talking about. take it for what its worth to you….

Carrie – the service LTE was just teh other option to ESOAL, but you really didn’t have to do it. I chose to and dusted banana leaves. They were kind about it and didn’t pressure you into doing the Service LTE and supported you in teh dessision you made to not do or ring out of ESOAL.

Eric P – Just so you know, My father thought this was a cult because he read teh blogs about it. until he actually got to talk to the Director of the HA he was convinced thet I shouldn’t come.

and in cults they try to make you think the same way as they do (like in communism). But there are things I don’t agree with, yeah. Who cares about it though – the other things that I’m getting from GOD, the things I’m learning about myself – I agree with those. I agree with my savior and I’ve been placed here, so I might as well make the most of what it is.

dehumanizing? they actually warned us of some stuff that would go on in ESOAL so our hearts would be prepared (and some people “spilled the beans” when it came to ESOAL because they cared about us). We didn’t have to roll in the puke.

Havn’t you ever heard of the navy seals? we do the stuff that they do only nicer and a shorter amount of time. our training is like that of theirs. We have a Navy Seal come in to procter and keep our facilitators in line and keep us “safe” to the most extreamety of teh word.

A calloused heart can care – but won’t learn, won’t undersatnd where someone is coming from… that’s my understanding.

RA – TV is also brainwashing… so is some music and the media and a load of other things. Are they labled as cults? no…
I didn’t delet my blog by the way…

I’m not Anna. I’m ashley and I’m not logged on. Thats why I’m Anonymous…

And no I think that I have a pretty clear mind. My own.

By the way… if you ever want to use my quotes to make a point, please ask me next time. Thanks.

Wait… is that seriously Hasz’s argument behind the brainwashing shtick? That “hey media does it too so it’s not bad”? I’ve heard another current intern say the same thing.

I’m pretty sure that TV and media don’t question your validity as a Christian if you don’t conform to their culture.

I don’t think anyone goes through HA and still has a mind of their own.

Anna or Ashley –
They have a Navy Seal come in now to go over procedures with the facilitators? Is this new? And is the Seal an ex-intern? Does he/she stick around during ESOAL?

Sorry for all the questions – I just think this is an interesting change!

Cesna – then I guess that that means that Recovering and Nunquam don’t have thier own minds either… just saying

I definitely didn’t have my own mind, till Jesus was like “um, Nunquam, let’s have a little powwow…”

And then I was like “oh lol TM’s not God?”

And then Jesus was like *smile and shake head*

And then I was like “oh dang that place is whack!”

And then I found this blog.

Ashley –

Of course it’s caring to tell someone they’re wrong if they believe something you think is harmful or false. (Ask any evangelist.) If someone thought cyanide was really sugar, wouldn’t it be the most caring thing in the world to tell them not to eat it?

The Bible says that harsh treatment of the body is “useless” for overcoming the flesh or spiritual battles– read Colossians 2:20-23. That’s why I think HA is wrong.

In the Navy Seals, soldiers are trained to survive real-life battlefield conditions. What real-life conditions for interns does ESOAL simulate? What’s the point of military training if you’re not actually going to war? (The Bible says a spiritual war is not fought with human military training–2 Cor. 10:3-4).

Also, faux-military imagery is actually another common characteristic of cults; see this article for a list.

The fact is that ESOAL is just an implementation of the Coercive Persuasion Techniques in the article I’ve linked before. You do seem very well persuaded, but perhaps you might send these articles to your dad and get his opinion.

* disclaimer: that’s a paraphrase of events that took place over the course of the past year plus.

Nunq – I know that TM is not GOD.

Eric – ESOAL is meant to REFLECT spiritual battles (some people don’t understand things with our practical or visual experiance – ESOAL provides that)
If you want to think that i have been brainwashed by a cult – fine. I’m only trying to convnce you otherwise, you don’t have to agree. And I don’t have to agree with you. That is called DEBATE.

Lauren – the Navy Seal did ESOAL and is now helping out with it. No, he was not an intern. and yes he sticks around – a bit like Mr. Hasz he’s in and out but still there.

Another point I haven’t seen mentioned often…

Just because you may feel you grew closer to God during this experience doesn’t mean that the experience was Godly or God driven.

Ashley–

Yes, exactly. As I mentioned before, the problem is that ESOAL is “meant to reflect spiritual battles” but uses techniques that the Bible directly says are wrong and useless for spiritual battles (see Col. 2:20-23, 2 Cor 10:3-4). However, they are the exact same techniques that some cults use for coercive persuasion techniques. Don’t you see why that makes me a little bit worried?

I don’t mind debate at all, but perhaps you should read the articles and Scriptures I linked to above so you can understand why I’m saying this. (Debate also involves considering the other’s viewpoint.) If you don’t want to take the whole time, just go through that list of “Coercive Persuasion Techniques” and see whether you think any of them may have been in use during ESOAL– or have your dad or an objective third party do it if you prefer.

Speaking on behalf of the currently brainwashed, I am most definitely enjoying my time at the Honor Academy. Please don’t misunderstand this as “spouting the Teen Mania party line,” because that is not my heart. What I’m merely suggesting is that for every person you find who was hurt by the ministry, there are thousands of others who have benefited. Yes, things like ESOAL are hard, yes, the Honor Academy itself has been the most stretching year of my life… but what you focus on enlarges! I could focus on the fact that I’ve cried myself to sleep more times than I can count, but why bother? The fact of the matter is that my life has been changed here. God is so real here. His presence is tangible and close.

To all of you who have been hurt by our leadership, my heart goes out to you. It’s never an easy thing to be made to feel like you’re unworthy of the love and grace that God gives to us freely. However, to take up bitterness and offense against those who hurt you is not the right path either. In my opinion, instead of helping people get free from the hurts that Teen Mania has caused them, it encourages them to keep on remembering them, and to keep the pain you feel growing inside of you. Is it helping to rehash your story every day when you visit this website? …Probably not. Release those who hurt you, let them go! If the offense they committed was one they truly do not feel remorse for, then Christ Himself will judge them, and it will be far more harsh than anything you could think to type into a blog.

To RA, whoever you may be, know that the intern class is praying for you. I have read your story and I’m so sorry for everything that has happened to you. However, I know all of us would appreciate if you wouldn’t take pieces of our blogs, Facebook statuses, or Twitter updates, and misconstrue them. If you truly want to know what our intern year is like, talk to us. Any of us would freely give out our contact information to help you understand the changes that have been, and are being, made at Teen Mania.

To “the circle,” we’re praying for you guys as well! The Lord is so faithful, and He restores us by name. Cling to His promises! 🙂

Eric – Dr. John Clark has noted some of the following characteristics in those who have been affected by cults.

1. Loss of free will, personal control, and decision making skills;

2. Reduced use of irony, abstractions and metaphors;

3. Diminished intellectual ability, vocabulary and sense of humor;

4. Reduced capacity to form flexible and intimate relationships;

5. Paranoia and de facto slavery;

6. Poor judgement;

7. Physical deterioration;

8. Malnutrition;

9. Hallucinations, panic, guilt, identity, diffusion, floating;

10. Neurotic, psychotic or suicidal tendencies.

I don’t believe I’ve suffered any of these things since coming here to the HA. in fact some of my previous problems with those that i had be fore coming have been fixed. Thanks to the leadership and the word of GOD.

Be blessed and keep seeking The Lord.
Thank you – I am done.

Bless you all.

“but what you focus on enlarges! I could focus on the fact that I’ve cried myself to sleep more times than I can count, but why bother? The fact of the matter is that my life has been changed here. God is so real here. His presence is tangible and close.”

WOAH WOAH WOAH. Hon, that’s a RED FLAG.

There is nothing Godly about ignoring your suffering. No, no, no!!! I am HEARTBROKEN that anybody would have the balls to tell you that.

You CANNOT substitute psychology for Godliness. It just doesn’t work.

Goodness, I hope that didn’t come across condescending. I really, TRULY feel pain that anybody would tell you that that’s okay. That’s how I dealt with my emotions at the HA and it jacked me up. Bad.

If you’re able to choose joy without killing your ability to relate to people, then I guess go for it. It didn’t work for me. Don’t do what I did!

RA- Of course current interns are going to stand up for themselves when you take our literature and use it here. The Honor Academy is pretty much our home– the people here, our family. We feel loyalty to it, not because anyone has forced us to, but because we love it.

Nunquam- I’m not ignoring the fact that I’m suffering, “hon.” Why am I not ignoring it? Because I’m not suffering. The only reason I have cried myself to sleep is because I’m homesick– which is to be expected for an 18 year old who is living away from home for their first time. I suppose I should have made that more clear, but please do not speak to me like I am weak minded and susceptible to whatever “mind games” you might think the ministry plays on us.

Also, could you point out to me where in my post that I stated SOMEONE told me to ignore my suffering?

Rofl, I only said “hon” cause I’m southern and I forget that that comes across as condescending. My bad; I totally own that! I noticed that your tone quickly went from humble and approachable to cutting, and if I caused that I’m sorry. Really!

And I totally get that- heck, I was pretty homesick too! And I didn’t even live THAT far away from campus. But I know that I definitely cried myself to sleep for other reasons, which were “supposed” to be ignored, as implied by leadership.

Again, I’m sorry if I came across as “talking down”. I know that I definitely bought into the hype and mindlessly ate up every last bit. Not saying that everyone did, but that’s the perspective I’m coming from.

And… haha, you never did say that, did you? I guess it’s such a consistent theme, I kind of assumed that. Also, I currently attend a church where the pastor says things such as “you deserve what you tolerate” and “what you focus on, you empower” (which come across as uncaring). Regardless, my opinion still stands; there’s nothing Godly about it and it seems to produce more harm than good.

(PS: as a nit-picking sidenote, you said this- “What I’m merely suggesting is that for every person you find who was hurt by the ministry, there are thousands of others who have benefited.” To my knowledge, there are less than 6000 Honor Academy alumni. I’m pretty sure there are more than six alumni that would agree with the premise of this blog 😉 Just had to throw that in there…)

I’m southern too, it’s completely understandable. Only in Louisiana, it’s usually “darlin’,” not “hon,” so it took my off guard! By “thousands more benefited,” I meant those who went on GE trips, ATF, Extreme Camps, and the HA. Hopefully between those 4 collectively, we can find thousands who have gotten closer to God. 🙂

My goal was never to be cutting, I simply felt like you were trying to CONVINCE me that I’m brainwashed, which I’m not. To be honest, I read this blog on a daily basis (if it counts for anything, I too detested the women’s lesson taught by Heath Stoner) and after every post, I make a point to pray for all of you. Like I said before, God restores us by name and if you feel like the Honor Academy was, to put it Biblically, “a year stolen by the locusts,” than God promises to restore it. So, once again, cling to that. 🙂

For the most part, we all recognize that leadership is fallible. One of the most powerful moments of my year was during a Chapel when Mr. Hasz asked any intern to stand up if they felt that they had been hurt by any area of the ministry. People stood, of course, and he delivered a heartfelt, genuine apology to each of them on behalf of the leadership of Teen Mania. Then, he even went as far as to ask those who had been hurt to e-mail him directly, and let them know the specifics of their pain. What I can tell you is that I have not seen the side of Mr. Hasz, Luce, or Stoner where they come across as hard, calloused, and careless. I have seen 3 men of God who love and care about me. Call me brainwashed or susceptible, but that’s just a “birds eye view” of what I see in them.

Really though, if you ever REALLY want to know what’s going on here, we’ll gladly talk to you.

Ashley–

Very good, and I’m glad if you don’t exhibit those symptoms. But I was referring to the second list right below that one. Let me walk through it based on your comments.

“Not all use all these methods but the more that are in place, the more danger is involved….”

– Isolation [crying yourself to sleep from loneliness? –EP]

– Peer Group Pressure [“Did you pray enough?”–EP]

– Love Bombing

– Removal of Privacy

– Sleep Deprivation and Fatigue: Adequate sleep is prevented, work hours are excessive over long periods of time, making members vulnerable and disoriented. [Q.E.D.–EP]

– Games: Playing strenuous games with confusing rules builds increasing dependence on group leaders for correct answers. [Q.E.D. #2–EP]

– Indoctrination: Fatigue prevents the members from seeing the contradictions. [Q.E.D. #3–EP]

– Confession

– Change of Diet [Lentils?–EP]

– Guilt [You learned that you didn’t “choose joy”–EP]

– Fear: The slightest negative thought is held to be soul threatening. [Insistence to “focus on the positive” not the abuse–EP]

– Chanting and Singing [I’ve heard of this being part of ESOAL too–EP]

– Childlike Dependence …denying opportunities for normal decision making.

– Elitism: Only the group is righteous; everyone else is satanic, or at best, misguided. [Isn’t “elite warriors” Dave Hasz’s phrase? Doesn’t Ron Luce have choice words for “namby-pamby Christians”?]

– Replacement of Relationships [HA is “pretty much your family”!–EP]

– Rejection of Old Values “…even things that may be spiritually neutral.”

– Financial Commitment [You’re paying to work for them–EP]

Also, consider the verses:

“For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.” (2 Cor 10:3-4– So why use worldly military training to fight a spiritual battle?)

“Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: ‘Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!’? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.” (Col 2:20-23– Severity to the body does not restrain the flesh.)

This is why I continue to be concerned. ESOAL is a destructive force both by reasonable and scriptural standards.

I’m sorry if this upsets you or anybody else, but please do consider that anything that looks like this really might not be as great as you’ve been conditioned to think it is.

Well said, Eric. I appreciate the clarity and gentleness with which you speak.

I haven’t commented on the blog in a while…and I don’t mean to enter this discussion, but I’m sad that Dave now apparently has the stamp of approval from a SEAL.

I have to say that I vehemently disagree with military-style training like ESOAL in the civilian world, and frankly, this SEAL should know better. I hope that his “helping out” is telling Dave “This is wrong. You need to stop this.”

OP/Anon – please don’t think I’m attacking your experience, because I’m not. I simply feel that ESOAL is incredibly dangerous physically and psychologically and should NOT be conducted by civilians for civilians.

I am SO sorry for you current interns who read these blogs and feel something other than “encouragement” or “understanding” about your situation. One day you, too, will understand everything that is about to happen to you. By the grace of God, I still believe in God (after my traumatic experiences at the cult). I hope and pray you will see the light before it is too late. I’m optimistic about your futures.

I’m sorry about what you’ve been forced to deal with. I’m even more sorry for what you’re about to face. Please know that there is a way out. There are people who can help you out of that. There are people you have never met who care about you and are willing to house you and help you. You are loved and accepted.

I wish someone had been there to tell me that during my time there. Good luck to all you current interns. Your year is not an easy one. God loves you. Former cult members love you. You are loved and accepted and appreciated and one day this will hopefully make sense to you.

I apologize for what you are going through. The year is difficult. Brainwashing is difficult. Understanding and accepting that you’ve been brainwashed is probably one of the most difficult things you’ll have to to face. I’m sorry. God help you.

you know I rather enjoy reading this blog. I’ve seen myself drawn in by it. but there is one thing that bugs me….and it ticks me off to no end.

that is accusing TM of being cult…which it isn’t.
and that it brainwashes the interns it’s interns, which it doesn’t.

I’m a alunus of TM 04-05. to honest I haven’t thought much of TM in the last five years sinse I’ve been there execpt the occational letter I get from them asking for support. which I so graciously ignore.

I’m not saying my time spent there was easy because it wasn’t but I won’t say I was brainwashed cuz I wazn’t. I did everything that I did because I wanted to not because anyone in leadership told me to.

btw..if TM is cult…what is there game? I mean most if not all cults want you to stay with them. I mean they bleed my bank accounts dry or ask me to give all my worldly possesions to them…I wans’t as to perfore some sort of ritual sacrifice or occultic worship.

all I’m saying it a huge leap to say tm is a cult. it’s almost laughable to the things you say makes TM a cult. it’s not perfect but it’s far from a cult.

yea there’s something admist about esoal, I mean I can’t even explain why I did, and i finished it btw, to my friends and family. they all ask me what was esoal for, and I can never give them a straite answer, because I can’t.

They tell you that Esaol is the favorite of all the lte they put you through…yet I don’t know why that is, being that it is what it is.

however I did learn a thing or two about me during esoal and I have taken that with me. I’m not emotionally scarred or a traumtized because of it but I wouldnt ever to it again.

Jeremy, cults don’t have to have a “game.” I’m not arguing that Teen Mania IS a cult, but I would like to clarify that a lot of cults are simply cults for the sake of controlling people. My parents were involved in a Christian cult in the 70s, and people died needlessly because of their faith. Was death the goal of the cult leaders? Absolutely not, but the teachings led to numerous deaths. And many more spiritual deaths than physical ones.

I think RA has done an excellent job pointing out the reasons Teen Mania could be considered a cult and why it’s not. . .but please be aware that cults don’t have to have some end game in mind.

Reading the comments of the current interns makes me a bit sad. Sad to think that many of them will never realize the harm that TM does to many young believers who think that they are dedicating a year of their lives to seeking the Lord. I know many interns during my year who are still TM supporters.

And if they choose to continue to support TM until the day they die, or the Lord returns, then so be it. But at some point they must recognize that Jesus calls us to trust Him completely, but He doesn’t require that we trust anyone else completely. TM is run by human beings and therefore is not perfect. No one can fault us for wanting to expose areas of the ministry that are not God exalting.

If you choose to continue to support TM, at least do so with intelligence. Do not believe everything they tell you. Read God’s Word and discern what is good and acceptable in God’s eyes, and do not accept what is contrary to God’s Word.

And please, do not disregard others simply because they speak out against TM. They (we) do so because we see hurt being inflicted on the Body of Christ, and we have experienced that hurt.

I pray you have/will never experience that hurt.

@ LizBR and last Anon–very well said..

The thing about the word brainwashing is that it is considered a negative word, but what isn’t any form of education brainwashing to a lesser or greater extent?

I mean forcible education for 12 years that you have to pass a test to attain most employment certainly sounds like brainwashing to me.

I don’t know what to say… i really don’t. Because there is a place where not everything is bad, and yet at the same time, the system is deeply, deeply flawed.

I loved ESOAL… I know, it’s not normal… but I like to be pushed physically… and what I learned was that nothing “man” could put in front of me really mattered. I spent a lot of time laughing… because they could make me do push ups and drag me through the mud, and it did not effect what I already knew, which was that I am perfect just as I am.

BUT… here’s the problem… it’s easy to take a situation that is ment as a physical metaphor, and try to make it apply every where. I have cronic knee issues because I was taught to “beat my body and make it my slave.”

One thing can lead to another… and it’s too easy for the result to be pain and self inficted abuse… and when you thing you are becoming more Godly by causing youself pain, it becomes easier to inflict that pain on others.

I grow weary of the TM party line. I grow weary of hearing that I am disillusioned, bitter, angry, rebellious, etc. when I am none of those things.

I was the TM party line for a long time after I graduated.

While at TM, I was very disillusioned.

I am not currently, any of the above. I am healing from the hurt that I endured while in the hands of TM. I am working on finding a place in the world and finding that what I was taught, just because it came from a leader, wasn’t always true, correct, or just.

For the person that asked if rehashing my story is helping– YES. A resounding YES. But then again,this blog is much more than rehashing my time at TM. It is a community… the forums are filled with open, honest discussions.

Someday…Ashley will weep, not because she’s homesick, but because she wasted her youth, enthusiasm,and maybe her health…for a group that truly is abusive and hurtful.

Ashley, do your parents and church approve of you rolling in vomit in order to grow closer to God?

I must say I’m a little surprised by the condescending nature of so many of these comments toward Ashley and to any of the others that truly are not affected as a part of TM. I think it surprises me because I continuously read comments from readers that get upset because the “TM Party Line” is condescending to them, example: Ron’s letter but yet I read so many of these comments and it just clarifies in my mind that the readers here are no different in so many ways.

“One day you, too, will understand everything that is about to happen to you. By the grace of God, I still believe in God (after my traumatic experiences at the cult). I hope and pray you will see the light before it is too late. I’m optimistic about your futures”. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe Ashley is genuinely having a great experience at the HA?? Yes there are a lot of people that are hurt by TM but I do somewhat agree with Ashley when she says there are still lots of people that aren’t. I was one of the ones that wasn’t and I don’t discount my experiences and things I learned there simply because there are some that didn’t have the same experience.

“And please, do not disregard others simply because they speak out against TM. They (we) do so because we see hurt being inflicted on the Body of Christ, and we have experienced that hurt”, to that i would say the same to you, please do no disregard others simply because they speak out for TM especially if there heart is not to speak down to you or discount your experience.

Now with all that being said, many of the readers of this blog HAVE experienced hurt, I acknowledge that 100% and I think it is truly a good thing for you to have this site to be able to share your struggles & hurts and to receive healing, I really do. I also agree that it can be slightly annoying when you have people tell you that your wrong for feeling that way, I get it absolutely however my challenge to you would be to consider that while some walk away hurt, yes some absolutely do not.

anon at 6:39 said it well “I pray you have/will never experience that hurt”….thats awesome, pray for them, but pray for the ones that have never experienced that hurt as well that God would continue to reveal himself to them and that He would continue to use them in big ways.

Blessings to you all

Most definitely agree with anon at 7:52….well put whoever you are 🙂

well said last anon.

that’s where I get upset to see those who have be hurt pretty much tell those who haven’t or those who support TM that they are brainwashed.
I just believe the terminology of brainwashed is used a little too freely here.
not saying it doesn’t happen…just saying not everyone has had it happen to them.

just be careful what and how you say things on here guys. be sensitive to everyone.

Last Anon:

I went through the HA program and continued on as an SA for almost 2 years after. Though I had some terrible experiences at HA (and with TM in general), I wasn’t horribly scarred by the program. That being said, many people were. Anon, as a current intern, I urge you to pay attention to your “family”. There are people on these forums who were interns during my time there, and I had no idea that they were suffering so much. HA has created a self-focused culture and sometimes – I think – interns become so caught up in their own experience that they are unable to see the experiences of the people around them. Talk to your friends, support them, allow them to discuss their issues with TM and HA leadership.

i’m largely with anon @ 7:52…

i think one of the issues is…there are many, many of us who didn’t realize for YEARS how damaging some of the stuff we were taught was…and there are some (i know some people) who still believe good things about TM and their experience…and i see the fruits of the teachings in their lives, and, um…yeah, it’s not good. i’d say they’re still suffering ill effects without actually realizing it. and then there are people i know who really, totally, truly DID have a fantastic experience. they were somehow shielded from the stuff that hurts so many people…

i’ve talked to a LOT of my classmates about this, and there are a lot of factors that contribute to someone’s overall experience as an intern.
1. age going in.
2. mindset going in.
3. work placement.
4. personality type.
5. staff involvement (work and interpersonal).
6. roommates and other community.
7. environment into which intern is immersed after leaving.

some or all of those things combined in different ways lead to very, very, very different experiences.

to reiterate…ashley may be having a fantastic experience…i thought i was when i was there. i thought it was fantastic for 2-3 years…at least…after i left. if brainwashing is too strong a term, indoctrination certainly is not…indoctrination is not necessarily bad, however…a lot of the stuff that is taught at TM is extra-biblical and legalistic, and it DOES create problems down the road for a lot of people.

(i’m rambling, but…my point is…it’s not ok to be dismissive, condescending, or rude to people who’ve had different experiences. that is a mark of immaturity, however, it MAY also be a mark of inexperience that someone has not yet processed through their experience. a year in GV is freakishly intense in a lot of ways. unwrapping all those layers takes a looooooong time.)

We are talking about gross abuses here! We’re not talking about some people had a good experience in high school and it just didn’t suite others. To say “But for the ones who are suffering the affects of the abuse EVERYONE is experiencing there are many more not suffering” is a ridiculous argument!! If there is any mistreatment that is unacceptable.

Thats like saying A child is being abused by their mother’s boyfriend. Let’s feel bad for that child and support them and pray for them but don’t take away the other children in the house. They aren’t being abused. Obsurd, right? Yeah. Exactly.

And to those who think my analogy is irrelevant…there’s you discounting the horrific experience had by people you probably know and didn’t even realize. I thought my CA was a model intern and she left the HA severely depressed and suicidal!

Whether or not you realize the ill effects of these abuses they are unacceptable and anyone that can blow them off with a “but it isnt EVERYONE” is most definately brainwashed in my opinion and I don’t apologize for using that word.

The specific Christian definition of a cult is “a religious group that denies one or more of the fundamentals of biblical truth.” In simpler terms, a cult is a group that teaches something that will cause a person to remain unsaved if he/she believes it. As distinct from a religion, a cult is a group that claims to be part of the religion, yet denies essential truth(s) of that religion. A Christian cult is a group that denies one or more of the fundamental truths of Christianity, while still claiming to be Christian

if the HA has the fundamentals they are not classified as a cult.. They Believe Jesus is who he said he was, and they believe salvation comes through Faith… seems fundemental.. if anything they might be a strange denomination.. but no cult

How the Honor Academy sees joy: sleep deprivation and rolling through vomit.

How atheists see joy: drinking microbrews with your friends and talking about space.

I could really get into drinking microbrews with my friends and talking about space, but I do not think this is a fair characterization of the HA. In order to be persuasive, the critique of the HA needs to be something other than, “Y’all are stupid!”

Personally, my critique is this: The HA, and Teen Mania generally, promulgates a version of Christianity that is legalistic and excessively authoritarian. This is not a light matter. In the New Testament era, much of the debate in the early church was over these very issues. I would argue that the Paul’s vision of Christianity was largely shaped in response to others whose vision was legalistic and excessively authoritarian. The Reformation itself was a reaction, at least in part, to a Roman Catholic Church which had become legalistic and excessively authoritarian. This legalistic and excessively authoritarian vision leads TM into activities that are cultic and damaging to the people it should be seeking to build up. This damage extends to everyone who attends the HA, even those who believe they had a good experience, because it results in a twisted world view.

Certainly, there is another debate to be had about Christianity vs. atheism, but that is not really the focus of this blog. This blog is concerned with the health, or relative lack of it, of Teen Mania and its practices and teaching.

This comment will most likely be deleted because it doesn’t push this pages opinionated agenda.

Would like to point out that ESOAL is voluntary and you can quit at any time. Most of the complaints coming from this page is based on “uncomfortable or stressful” environments. If you knew anything about the human body, you would realize that the body can take a LOT of stress before anything hurts it. Also, do you really think being a missionary is easy? How about comfortable? Do you think your gonna get much more then rice from a tribal village in Asia or Africa? Heck you’ll be lucky to eat once a day. Its sad to see so many people whining about being uncomfortable as if they were FORCED to do ESOAL. If your thinking “well I was forced to do it because if I didnt, I would be ridiculed.” Wow, grow a backbone and rebuke those insecurities.

Its upsetting to see Teen Mania give into pressures and shut down such a good growing opportunity. Some people have never been treated roughly in their life and when something hits the fan in their presence, they end up buckling like a child, unable to handle it.

Why are you alumni “recovering” anyway? The only impression your giving is that you feel sorry for yourselves. I’m not trying to be rude when I say that but, that is the impression you give off.

But hey, what can I do? Whats done is done. 🙂