Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift don’t worry about it. After all, it is their responsibility to come to you if they are offended.
Matthew 5: 23-24
52 comments:
Shannon Kishsays:April 23, 2010 at 8:32 AMReply
This is a good one RA.
Anonymoussays:April 23, 2010 at 9:16 AMReply
can you tell me where this comes from in TM? I’d like to hear the sermon that this was included in as this is completely opposite what I observed while I was there
thanks
Anonymoussays:April 23, 2010 at 9:31 AMReply
This is the exact scripture that comes to my mind every time someone tries to excuse TM’s behavior as “a mistake” or “just a one time occurrence”. It’s as if TM feels they don’t have to abide by this scripture because they are a big corporation. Baloney. If Teen Mania truly believes the entire Bible is inspired by God, then they can’t discount this verse.
To Anonymous at 9:16am – I can’t remember this being “verbally” taught at TM, but we can look at the “fruit” that comes out of TM and the way that they’ve handled certain situations and see that they, as an organization, do not practice this scripture.
To RA – Thank you for saying exactly what I’ve been thinking. TM needs to own up to the fact that they’ve hurt people, instead of blaming the victim.
Shilohsays:April 23, 2010 at 9:42 AMReply
Wow. That’s a revelation in itself (talking about T.M. or not)
Anonymoussays:April 23, 2010 at 9:51 AMReply
another negative attribute of tm and there is not one redeeming thing about tm on this site? all you people and not one good thing to say about Tm ,interesting….
bashing – very strong criticism of a person or group
I don’t see how this site can be a good thing…last time I checked God isn’t in the bashing biz. if your going to do this at least you can do is show some the good qualities of this ministry. Look I know that everyone hear is looking for healing but it can’t happen at the expense of hurting or berating TM reputation.
BTW just because I may support TM doesn’t mean I’m brainwashed!!! that is so stereotypical.
Nunquam Honorablussays:April 23, 2010 at 10:02 AMReply
Anon 9:51, please read the contents of this blog before you assume that all we do is “bash”. We DO mention the good we got from TM- a lot- but that doesn’t negate the abuse that happens there.
If you don’t want us sterotyping you, then please don’t stereotype us.
Shilohsays:April 23, 2010 at 10:05 AMReply
Anon.
Spouting off opinions like that isn’t pretty.
I could go ahead and tell you what happened to me at T.M. The CRAZY stuff they made me do… But it doesn’t sound like you actually care! You’re like, ‘oh their all wrong, I’m going to tell them so they can know I think they are wrong. And THEN I can leave.’
See what I’m saying?
In this case… for YOU, it might be better to be silent and listen or just leave if you don’t like it.
Shilohsays:April 23, 2010 at 10:06 AMReply
NUNQUAM YOU ALWAYS GET TO PEOPLE BEFORE I DO!
hmph!
:)~
Anonymoussays:April 23, 2010 at 10:20 AMReply
Anon – Jesus himself called the Pharisees “Brood of Vipers”. That doesn’t seem very nice. I’m sure the Pharisees were well intentioned, right?
Jesus spoke truth when necessary, but was able to eat with the Pharisees too… Truth is of the utmost importance, and it doesn’t always feel good at the time. If you read most of the stories posted on this site, you will see that most of them do not focus solely on the bad things that happened at TM. However, many of the things that happen at TM need to be exposed, so they might be fixed.
Nunquam Honorablussays:April 23, 2010 at 10:20 AMReply
I usually live on the internet on weekdays 😛
laynesays:April 23, 2010 at 10:34 AMReply
I will say some good things about TM (because even bad things can cause – indirectly – positive results)…
Because I moved to Texas and attended the HA internship…
…I was able to meet my future husband
…I have a better understanding of the Bible
…I was introduced to several fantastic authors, many of whom wrote some of my now-favorite books
…I developed incredible friendships
…I fell in love with those quiet moments between friends
…I learned to about vulnerability
…I learned how to let people help me
and…
…I learned how to disappear in a crowd
…I learned that sometimes people will ask you to lesson and diminish yourself, sacrifice your own experience so that others – the chosen ones – can shine and prosper)
…I learned that even “spiritual leaders” can lie
…I learned what manipulation is and that I can, in fact, be unwillingly manipulated (I thought I was so strong)
…I learned that God has his favorites and I’m not one of them
…I learned that Different = probably a sinner
…I learned that untouchables do exist
…I learned that it’s easier to pull someone down from a pedestal than to pull someone up onto one
…I learned that Christians stand on pedestals and “everyone else” stand below
…I learned that friendships with non-christians should be conditional
…I learned that a pure thing touching an impure thing turns the pure thing impure…instead of the other way around
…I learned that people don’t usually respond to hyper-emotional super christianity
And from your comment, Anon 9:51, I learned that my feelings of rejection, anger, disillusion, confusion, and doubt are completely invalid and oh so stereotypical.
Recovering Alumnisays:April 23, 2010 at 10:36 AMReply
I really hate when a thread gets hi-jacked by someone making ignorant comments…
laynesays:April 23, 2010 at 10:42 AMReply
RA – Hahah, yeah. At least you know we’re paying attention.
Shilohsays:April 23, 2010 at 10:42 AMReply
Yeah your right R.A. lol. I’m just about to run late for a meeting with my pastor, I just had to check up and see how this is going.
So I’ll get us back on track… Just cause I am curious.
What is the rational behind this scripture? I don’t FULLY understand.
Eric P.says:April 23, 2010 at 10:48 AMReply
Don’t forget v. 25: “For behold, is not your brother a bitter and unforgiving complainer, who has nothing better to do than to bash you? I tell you the truth, it certainly couldn’t be that you did anything wrong to make him that way, like a supercilious attitude or anything!”
(Actually, v. 25 says in effect “Go long enough without apologizing and you’re likely to get dragged into court”… That may be relevant too but I won’t go there.)
Anon @ 9:51 “bashing – very strong criticism of a person or group… last time I checked God isn’t in the bashing biz.”
Next time you check, check Matthew 23. Or, for some literal bashing action, John 2:13-17. Whoops!
Eric P.says:April 23, 2010 at 11:36 AMReply
Shiloh: Oh, so many rationales and applications we can find…
– God is more concerned about us being reconciled than about us worshiping Him the “right” way.
– If you say you love God and you don’t love your brother, you’re lying. (Corollary: If you hurt your brother and you aren’t willing to ask for forgiveness, you don’t love him.)
– If you hurt somebody, it’s your responsibility to apologize to them; “If they wanted me to apologize they would have asked me to” are the words of a jerk.
– Seeking forgiveness is a higher priority than giving an offering or another form of worship.
Others?
jakesays:April 23, 2010 at 11:42 AMReply
Anon at 9:25 I actually received a lot of positive things as a result of my time at TM that I’d like to acknowledge
1. solid friendships with other men of God
2. a deeper understanding of the true faithfulness and love of God
3. how to relate to people on a deeper level
4. confidence in myself and the calling upon my life
5. humility
6. discipline
7. better work ethic
these are just a few of the positives I received however I can honestly say my life was changed pretty immensely and I am glad I spent my two years there.
While I had a fairly great experience and am thankful to TM for that experience, I understand that there were people who did not and I think this site is a great resource for them to seek healing and guidance. I do not think the overall heart of this site is to “bash” TM although there may be people that feel the need to “focus on the negative” from time to time but you are going to find that whereever you go and you honestly can’t tell me you have never pointed out the flaws of the ministry that you love. Be careful about how you share your opinions and viewpoints as if you read your comment you will see that you are doing exactly what many on this site are accusing TM of.
RA: I am not sure I understand your original post, getting back on topic. Please expand on what you are trying to say in this post, where have you seen this said? Do have any recordings that you have heard this scripture used?
thanks
ancient internsays:April 23, 2010 at 11:57 AMReply
I was a Tulsa-years intern who follows the blog and have had some meaningful introspection from the issues that are raised here. Since this discussion has gone off track anyway, I would like to ask how you guys grapple with the fact that some of us had really great experiences with some rough spots and some had horrible experiences with some bright spots. For those who had dreadful experiences, how do you deal with that? I have many other questions that I ponder and would like to ask, but I suppose those are the first. I suppose I want to know how to be a person who cares about people enough to show Jesus’ love without manipulation (which is not as easy as it seems).
I really hurt for all the brokenness that has been experienced and would like to see changes to the system as well, but I think it is difficult as some people come out traumatized and others come out raving about it and begging for nothing to be changed.
I do think one of the first, most important steps is for people to be able to talk openly and honestly about what their experiences were and how it affected them. Thanks everyone for being a family and sharing your stories.
laynesays:April 23, 2010 at 11:59 AMReply
To add to Eric P.’s list:
– God values human relationships and wishes for us to be right with each other (and not awkwardly avoiding uncomfortable conversations)
Shannon Kishsays:April 23, 2010 at 12:08 PMReply
Ancient intern- I don’t grapple with it at all, actually.
It is the same as how 3 children can live in the same home and 2 of them be abused while the 3rd is not.
It is the same as how several can be in a cult and only 1 realize it is a cult and escape from it.
It is the same as how 2 people can have the same boss and 1 have a horrible experience and the other a great experience.
Anonymoussays:April 23, 2010 at 12:12 PMReply
I don’t know what else you want from Teenmania. Dave AND Ron have both apologized, publically AND privately (which were made public by posting the letters on the website).
Here you are judging what you believe Teenmania’s stance on this scripture is, when you are the one that won’t accept the apologies from the leadership there.
Anonymoussays:April 23, 2010 at 12:22 PMReply
careful anon 12:12…..stirrin up the hornets nest which can be a dangerous thing if you don’t read through the site and investigate a little further.
laynesays:April 23, 2010 at 12:26 PMReply
Anon 12:12 – I’m not sure RA is referring directly to an apology (or lack of one) from DH and RL. I think it is the TM attitude in general that has been displayed throughout this blog via comments from others. Such as, in regards to ESOAL and the coffin incident. We were told that TM acknowledged that the coffin was a “bad idea” and have since taken it out of the retreat. They remembered “that brother has something against ” and yet they did nothing to reconcile with the interns who were injured because of their mistakes.
That was my take on it anyway.
laynesays:April 23, 2010 at 12:28 PMReply
For some reason, when I placed words in brackets throughout the scripture quote, the blog deleted them…I didn’t mean to kill the scripture like that. Whoops.
Nunquam Honorablussays:April 23, 2010 at 12:29 PMReply
My two cents: apologies only mean as much as the change that they bring about.
Say I beat my kids. Say, everytime I beat them, I go to them later and apologize for it. I may even mean it!
But if I keep doing it, don’t those apologies become meaningless…?
Jacquelinesays:April 23, 2010 at 12:34 PMReply
My mother came to me and apologized for everything she ever did to me. I made it clear to her that if she repeats any of the behaviors towards me again that she will not be allowed to be in my life at all.
Now that I have a baby and she wants to have a relationship with him she will just about do anything I want.
She continues her abuse to other people in her life because they allow her to. She has apologized, but she has not repented. Her heart is just as dark as it has ever been. I was just the first person in her life to say NO.
Anonymoussays:April 23, 2010 at 12:40 PMReply
hey 12:12, i’m not afraid of hornets.
Anonymoussays:April 23, 2010 at 12:40 PMReply
Anon
Just wondering… Where are the apology letters. I checked out TM website and I didn’t find anything? Maybe I overlooked…
Shannon Kishsays:April 23, 2010 at 12:43 PMReply
“I don’t know what else you want from Teenmania. Dave AND Ron have both apologized, publically AND privately (which were made public by posting the letters on the website).”
Where are these apologies because I certainly NEVER received an apology from ANYONE on TM Staff.
Also, apology is one the first step to recovery. If someone apologizes but then continues the action, doesn’t it negate their apology?
We are after MUCH more than an apology. We are after reform, a complete change of the HA and the way it is run, etc. We are after recovery. We are after preventing others from being abused as we were.
Recovering Alumnisays:April 23, 2010 at 12:50 PMReply
Hi Jake,
This series is inspired by Alan Knox’s “Scripture…As We Live It” series: http://www.alanknox.net/category/as-we-live-itScripture
I’m not trying to say that TM literally changes the words of Scripture, but this series examines how they have changed it in every day practice and how the culture there can be opposite to what Scripture says.
This particular post was inspired by some of the comments in relation to Lauren’s story. Many pro-TM supporters insist that the wounded and hurt should be the first to seek reconciliation. This mentality allows DH, RL, et al. go on their merry way while many, many people are hurting b/c of things DH/RL did or said. Of course its not always possible to know who you have hurt or offended. But, if, for example, you put someone in a coffin – it shouldn’t be too hard to apologize for that. They know what year(s) they did that and they have most of the alumni email addresses. So, that is what inspired this particular post. There are many other similar incidents.
Check out Andrew’s story for another example of blaming the victim instead of taking responsibility. Its only when Andrew threatened legal action that his situation was rectified….(and as Eric P. mentioned, the verse directly after this one speaks to that)
Hope that clarifies somewhat.
Recovering Alumnisays:April 23, 2010 at 12:52 PMReply
And to add to that, Eric P’s very astute analysis of the meaning of these verses is something I never learned at TM. This verse protects the hurt, the wounded, the weak…but at TM I learned a more Darwininan approach – namely, only the strong survive.
Nunquam Honorablussays:April 23, 2010 at 12:57 PMReply
“hey 12:12, i’m not afraid of hornets.”
OOGA BOOGA
hitchcockhillsays:April 23, 2010 at 1:49 PMReply
Considering some of the most recent stories, a ten page document of emails between a friend of mine and DH and the ever absent RL from addressing the issue – I’ve definitely gone from somewhat supportive of TMM – to full on wanting to shut down their business. Make no mistake people – that’s what it is. TMM needs a regime change or to go out of business and I don’t mind helping to make that happen.
Recovering Alumnisays:April 23, 2010 at 1:58 PMReply
AncientIntern – that is definitely a question I think about alot….I have a few theories:
1) Some people actually like/thrive on military style discipline.
2) Its the luck of the draw – if you get a Nazi GI, you are going to have a bad experience. If you are lucky enough to get a good boss or CA, your time there can be much less fraught with spiritual abuse.
3) Some people might rave about TM, but in real life they are actually very legalistic, judgmental people.
I also think personality and background factor in…but yeah, its a complicated question.
Annasays:April 23, 2010 at 2:04 PMReply
An apology and repentance are very different things. The latter would be a change in attitude and actions. This is a long way from what has happened.
Anonymoussays:April 23, 2010 at 2:17 PMReply
I think that TM has taught this verse. On “Get Right Night” during gauntlet staff, GIs, and interns were all encouraged to make restitution to those they had wronged. In fact, during one year an intern was so convicted for the illegal actions in his past that he eventually left the HA to turn himself into the police because he had been involved in stealing cars prior to the HA.
While TM does teach this verse, whether or not they practice what they preach is another issue…
littlegraygirlsays:April 23, 2010 at 2:25 PMReply
This message is totally off-topic, and is directed specifically to Layne: I followed the link on your name to your xanga site and read The Watermelon Patch. It.was.excellent. It reminded me of something I might read in the The Sun magazine (just shorter). I don’t use xanga anymore but I really wanted to tell you somehow, so hopefully you’ll see this. I feel kind of emotional–I want to reach into the story and stop everything, but I’m helpless. Well done. 🙂
Recovering Alumnisays:April 23, 2010 at 2:39 PMReply
Anon at 2:17pm – Yes, that is not hard to imagine. Its the same as when they teach the interns to have integrity and never lie – but they don’t have integrity and they lie. Actions speak louder than words…
laynesays:April 23, 2010 at 2:45 PMReply
littlegraygirl – Thank you so much, that means a great deal to me!
Anonymoussays:April 23, 2010 at 5:31 PMReply
shilo..doesn’t sound like you actually care! You’re like, ‘oh their all wrong, I’m going to tell them so they can know I think they are wrong. And THEN I can leave.’
no I actually do care…I’ve been there and done that….so I understand.
not everyone is wrong…but not everyone can be right either.
yea maybe spouting off wasn’t a good idea, sorry folks.
but it just that everyone here is making TM seem worse than it is and that’s wrong. mean its like it is hell on earth or something. and Ron and Dave are cult leaders trying to brain wash everyone. geez it’s a great ministry, and for every one you who have been hurt, there are dozen more who have been helped and experienced real growth from their experience there.
(I probably exaggerated the number there but you get my jest)
what does that say about them who weren’t hurt by tm? Tm must be doing some thing right, right?
Recovering Alumnisays:April 23, 2010 at 5:58 PMReply
Last Anon – This is your first warning. You are in violation of the comment policy.
Everything in your comment has already been addressed on this blog. See the comment policy and the Is TM a Cult? posts if you want to comment further on these topics.
Shilohsays:April 23, 2010 at 6:43 PMReply
lol. Anon, I thought you were like, ‘No I actually don’t care.’ and I was like, ‘duh! That’s what I said!’
lol.
Then I re-read it and saw that you do care.
I don’t know what you mean by ‘I’ve been there and done that.’
But really, I want you to breath with me for a second ok?
“But it just that everyone here is making TM seem worse than it is and that’s wrong. mean its like it is hell on earth or something.”
No one is making T.M. sound worse than it is.
(It sounds like you are very new to the blog so I’ll catch you up, cause I have time)
Right now T.M. is being confronted for a lot of wrong things that they did. Check out the true stories.
Their reaction to the whole thing was to send out an email basically trying to cover up the situation as best as possible and make light of all of our concerns like nothing was wrong.
So, from what I’m understanding THIS POST is saying T.M. is like, ‘Hey, I know you had issues when you were here, what are WE supposed to do about it?!’ when the bible states that it should be more like, ‘wow. WE hurt YOU?! oh man, I AM SORRY!’ then genuine change comes about.
That is not making T.M. sound worse than it is. That is confronting with truth. We were ALL interns here (save a few) You are not finding a bunch of bitter people looking to accuse T.M. you’re looking at a bunch of alumni who called 35 hours a week, went to the classes, had family cores and went through the LTE’s… Most of us cause we liked them and wanted to.
No one here has said T.M. was hell on Earth, unless you are taking one specific instance out of context and not looking at the entire blog or something. Though I don’t know of anywhere on here it says that T.M. was that bad. Well… No, I mean, some people really had some terrible experiences.
“Ron and Dave are cult leaders trying to brain wash everyone.”
From what I’m seeing… This isn’t really that far off from the truth. Well, I don’t think Ron’s like, ‘LETS BRAIN WASH PEOPLE!’ and Daves like, ‘SWEET!’
I think it’s more like, ‘We don’t really have any intention of changing’ and one thing they don’t want to change are a few brainwashing teqniques and lying or fudgeing the truth.
“geez it’s a great ministry, and for every one you who have been hurt, there are dozen more who have been helped and experienced real growth from their experience there.”
(I’m gonna by-pass the issue that this is a VERY hurtful statement that blows off all of the hurts that interns have gone through like it was nothing.)
I think we all experienced ‘real growth’ while at T.M. but T.M. has NEVER been the cause of growth. It is God doing the work in our hearts. Big issue #1- T.M. tells you, without them, you won’t be able to grow.
I grew a whole heck of a lot. To the point when God told me to LEAVE in May and not finish my G.I. year.
Really Anon. I’m serious. READ the blog or don’t. But this really isn’t the place to be spouting off telling me I’m all wrong and stuff cause I was hurt and said something about it. (Which is what your saying, on a broad scale though.)
I think you’ll be hard pressed to find any post’s on here that attack T.M. or falsely accuse them.
Charissays:April 24, 2010 at 3:21 PMReply
Stop putting words in the mouth of the HA.
Nunquam Honorablussays:April 24, 2010 at 8:27 PMReply
Charis-
We’ll do that, as soon as they stop putting words into God’s. Why do you even comment on here, I want to know? Are you seeking to understand the premise of this blog, or are you trying to show us that we’re wrong? Cause, um, that’s not going to happen. Sorry, but after reading the True Stories, nobody can deny that the place is abusive.
If you weren’t in any way hurt by the HA, or have nothing to contribute, then really there’s no reason for you to contribute. Just sayin’…
Philip Esays:April 24, 2010 at 9:55 PMReply
NH,
I think that many on this blog are willing to see when they’re wrong. I don’t think anyone is going to convince the majority on here that the basic premise of the blog is wrong, but I think that there is still room to show how specific opinions or viewpoints are wrong or incomplete.
Nunquam Honorablussays:April 24, 2010 at 10:29 PMReply
Right right Philip; I’m with you on that. But the impression I got from these comments, was that it was another pro-TM individual trying to throw their weight around and get their two cents in, without any interest in discussion.
If I’m wrong, Anonymous, por favor let me know.
Nunquam Honorablussays:April 24, 2010 at 10:41 PMReply
MY BAD YOU GUYS
Charis… not Anonymous.
Wow.
Anonymoussays:April 24, 2010 at 11:13 PMReply
k, shilo I’ll take your advise and take some time and really read through some of the blogs on here
I don’t want you think that I’m blowing off anyone’s hurt, and certainly didn’t mean for my comments to come off hurtful, and Im sorry if they did seem that way.
what I meant when I said, been there done that, or what I should of said that Im alumnus of the Ha myself, and been through the internship.
Anonymoussays:April 24, 2010 at 11:17 PMReply
I must say I’m a little bit hurt myself by all the negativity on here towards a ministry that I personally love.
Recovering Alumnisays:April 24, 2010 at 11:29 PMReply
Last Anonymous – that is understandable. sometimes the truth is suprising and it hurts.
🙁
Lindsay Jennisonsays:April 25, 2010 at 1:44 AMReply
I know this is off topic, but I really don’t know where else to say this. Sometimes I just want to scream from the mountain tops “I’M NOT CRAZY. STOP SHUNNING ME.” It makes me just… so sad to think of all the people from TM that I love so much, but assume we can’t connect anymore b/c I was dismissed, which automatically means I have gone off the deep end. This is the only place I feel I can share these thoughts without… making people think i’m just getting crazier and crazier, so thanks RA, again for this blog.
Recovering Alumnisays:April 25, 2010 at 11:18 AMReply
Lindsay – I’m so sorry you are going through that. That is hard. You are always welcome here.