Im just curious why there are only ladies on the show accusing Teen Mania of being a cult. Where are the guys? Not to be mean but these seem like somewhat socially inept ladies who maybe weren’t right for a program like this to begin with? Where are the interviews with the people who have gone through the program who are well adjusted individuals with families, businesses, etc?
I’m just going by what the show displayed. I don’t mean to be rude but with the exception of Mica they seemed to be somewhat socially inept. Sorry I know that sounds rude but those are some pretty harsh accusations the show is placing on them. The show said 8,000+ have gone through the Honor Academy. I have a hard time making a leap from a small percentage being disgruntled to calling it a cult. Not to diminish at all the obvious trauma these girls have gone through.
I used to attend the Acquire The Fire events and looking back I can see how much they used these kids in such an important time in their life. As an atheist I have stepped away from not only these events but the religion as well. Whether you believe or not this should not be tolerated. No person should go through this and I am glad that you guys stood up and got the word out. I never attended the Honor Academy so I didn’t experience the things you guys did. However, I can say a lot of the mental abuse is not relegated to these organizations. I experienced it a lot in my own church and with a lot of the people I grew up with. Not until I accepted my doubts did I feel like I could be the person I really was. We need to stop the abuse not only at these events and the academy but in churches as well.
At some point in life we need to realize that there are people who are different or do not believe the same way we do. Its the root of bullying and mental abuse. It needs to stop.
Jay – I spent a lot of time with these girls and I’m not seeing what you are seeing. They were filmed baring their souls – its bound to be a bit awkward…Plus, we all freely admit that TM harmed our social skills. It was even mentioned in the show!
AS A ALUMNI IM SADDENED BY WHAT I SAW TONIGHT….THE HA IS NOT A CULT OR TRYING TO BRAIN WASH YOU…IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST CHALLENGING BUT BEST YEARS OF MY LIFE….I MADE LIFE LONG FRIENDS AND LEARNED LEARDERSHIP QUALITIES THAT HELP ME TODAY….JUST SAD TO SEE THINGS TWISTED BY THE MEDIA AND THESE WOMEN….I ENCOURAGE YOU TO SEARCH YOUR HEART INSTEAD OF ATTACKING A MINISTRY….
cult [kuhlt] Origin cult [kuhlt] Show IPA noun 1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. 3. the object of such devotion. 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. 5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
@Maurice – Its not for me to judge where one’s relationship with God is. Those who believe in the Great Commission can’t deny that Teen Mania has had success in helping to make disciples as it says in the Bible. Obviously those who don’t agree with the Bible and Christianity we won’t be able to come to any sort of agreement on this. A few people can choose to call the world flat. That doesn’t mean its flat. I know thats a really simplistic comparison.
Jay…I don’t comment here often, but I feel somewhat compelled to respond to your “socially inept” comment.
I appreciate that those young women appeared on national television, and by doing so may have opened themselves up to some potentially insulting commentary. But damn, man. Ouch.
Anyway, let’s say for the sake of argument that they are “socially inept”. A harsh observation that I disagree with, but let’s say you’re right.
Are we in the business of marginalizing socially inept or socially awkward people? As believers, should we really be building programs that are built only for those among us who fit our own standards for social interaction? If we have programs that glorify people who are “socially gifted”, while harming the “socially inept”, how are we to welcome all to Jesus, with open arms?
Wouldn’t the logical conclusion be that Christ is really only interested in socially gifted individuals? The normal ones? The ones like me?
I post it to show the commonly held definition of a cult is incorrect. For many a cult has to abuse, hurt and cause widespread damage. That is simply not true.
Yes, religions are cults by definition. Churches take the christian belief and distort it to such a point that it does cause abuse, hatred and widespread damage to society.
But I didn’t come here to attack religion. I came here to speak out about the abuse I have seen with my own eyes.
Jay… What you refer to as socially inept, I think you are actually seeing hurt and post-abuse trauma. I know in my case, anyone would probably call me socially inept or awkward… But I am working through many issues after TM… I was radically transformed (not for the better).
Also, if TM gets credit for leading so many people to Christ, does that mean they also take credit for turning souls AWAY?
@Dan – I realize it was a harsh thing to say. And I didn’t say that to marginalize them as people. You extrapolated a lot from what I said so let me explain a little better what I meant. All I was trying to say was that they didn’t seem like a good fit for such an intense program. I don’t think that everyone is made to be exposed to such harsh conditions like what were shown in ESOAL. I’m sure for some people who are more apt to learn that way probably gained something from it. Everyone is not built to be a type A leader. It seems like this program is more designed for people who lean toward that personality type. So I apologize because what I meant to say is obviously not how you took it.
With all that said, would I let my kids do it? I can’t imagine I would but my oldest is barely 6 🙂
@shannikitty It definitely seems like Teen Mania is at fault for not doing a better job with people like those in the show. You are absolutely right, they should and will be held accountable for those who they are responsible for harming – mentally and physically. It is obvious they have done a bad job in this area. But from doing a bad job of understanding who the people in your care are to calling them a cult is a huge leap. This has major ramifications for them that personally I think are unwarranted.
Socially inept…is that the way you think God sees his kids? As deficient? Lacking? Maybe even embarrassing?
I wonder how God sees you…his treasured child. More importantly, I wonder how you see yourself in order to make and defend such a cruel and inaccurate assessment.
You know one of the issues with the abuses at TM is the elitism. Based on the lessons of self-harm they end up teaching, I dont see how it is for any of God’s children.
Just an fyi, Jesus never put His disciples through bootcamp. And He used murders and prostitutes for the Kingdom. Who is TM to create a whole new kind of Christian and ridicule those who dont make their cut?
@Jay “Everyone is not built to be a type A leader. It seems like this program is more designed for people who lean toward that personality type”
This is what you said. This program is geared towards those that are type a leaders. Which you also imply these girls are not. You also say they may not be suited for such an intense program. What is it you are really trying to say?
My intent was not to be cruel. Everyone take a few deep breaths. It was a simple observation based on what I saw on the show. I’m not taking the bait into getting into an argument with anyone.
@jay I call it a cult because of the time I spent there. I can safely say I was brainwashed by their classic mind control techniques. But it took me about a decade to get to the point of calling it a cult. There have been many discussions here about the qualities which make it a cult but you may certainly disagree.
@shannlkitty: “Just an fyi, Jesus never put His disciples through bootcamp.” There are many examples of Jesus putting the disciples through “tests” both physically and spiritually. Thats not an accurate comparison.
@Justin: I am not trying to say anything. I am saying what I mean. It is not a bad thing to create a program geared toward leadership. I am not claiming that what Teen Mania has created is a perfect example. Its very obvious its not. Everyone has a different calling. Those who go to the Honor Academy aren’t any better than those who do not. If someone started the program and couldn’t finish, that doesn’t make them any less of a Christian than those who complete it. I will agree that this is an area that, up to this point, Teen Mania has failed.
I Posted in the previous thread about my concern why there were no male alumni in the show.
Regardless, I am glad that this was done. TM has not responded to our individual and group efforts to confront and share our concerns; thus the word of what happens and happened there will continue to be brought more and more into the public arena. Hopefully and prayerfully we will see eventual change in the organization that we love.
@shannlkitty: I have been to many Acquire the Fires. I know many people who have gone to the Honor Academy recently and left without the real hurt and pain that you have experienced. Please understand I say that not discounting or disqualifying the real hurt and pain you experienced. I myself was in the program the first year they moved to Garden Valley in 1996. That was well before they began doing ESOAL and I will admit that the program is very different from when I was there. I am very sorry that your time there ended up being negative.
By the definitions in the show tonight every single religion could be quantified as a cult.
All of this is stolen, but it shows how I feel better than my words in other words, this is total plagiarism : The phrase “get over it and move on” is a term that was authored and abused by authoritarian spiritual abusers to get their followers to turn their brains off so that they won’t think for themselves. I have the an aversion to being told things like “get over it” I find instructions and directives like that demeaning, as though these people are inferring that I am incompetent, and that I have made the wrong choice where my own feelings are concerned. Those statements often come in larger sentences such as “Oh for goodness sake, get over it already” and there is always an impatient voice infliction attached to them. Tone of voice is used to “remind me” that I must be too stupid to understand “HOW to deal with it” thereby putting the focus back on me, reminding me that I am incompetent, in order to make me stop talking about whatever it was that I was trying to deal with in the first place. Being told to “just get over it” is devaluing. It implies that I am making a mistake in processing an event. It indicates that something is wrong with ME because I am in still confused about something that has not been resolved. The statement is emotionally abusive Furthermore, people who say stuff like this don’t have any solutions; they don’t ever offer suggestions on HOW to get over it or deal with it, because they don’t know how either. They only offer devaluing and thoughtless instructions that remind me of my abuse and how I was never right, never good enough and never entitled to my feelings or to my pain. I was not entitled to realize that I had been wronged. I was always the one who was wrong no matter what the situation was
@Jay I was not trying to start an argument and I am sorry if I got to emotional. Its a subject that really does hit home. While I have not experienced the honor academy I have suffered through many types of mental abuses caused by the church.
I don’t agree with their way of teaching leadership and it has nothing to do with the differing beliefs. Its a way to scare people into a certain path and its not effective. It breeds an elitist attitude and I think this is the reason many churches fail at bringing new members.
I know I am likely the only non believer in this discussion and I did not come here to tear down the religion. I just wanted to share my experiences and commend those that got the word out. Its something that needs to be stopped and not only in religion. This elitist attitude is the cause of many issues in this world.
@justin it is true that the people who “do well” at TM tends to be type A or a1 least very outgoing people. Isn’t that sad? My personality was beat up, chewed up there (I’m an introvert). Their lessons made me believe I was inherently wrong. They were not preaching the love of Jesus with these methods.
We may not agree on theology but I think you have made some very good points. I can imagine this reinforces your views of Christianity, which is one of the things that makes me so sad about the HA.
@Jay My main reason for providing the dictionary definition of the word ‘cult’ is to show that for many people they hold the bar way too high. For many people to take these abuses seriously it has to be called a cult but when the bar it set too high it allows way too many abuses to be allowed through unpunished.
Its much like the definition of the word genocide. There have been many cases around the world that the word genocide was not applied and because it wasn’t these abuses were not taken seriously. I am not saying these are on the same level but the same thing applies.
Lets make our decisions based on the abuse reported rather than whether it fits the criteria of a single word.
@Justin – I don’t disagree with anything you said there. When leadership in the church is abused it can be a very damaging force that can ruin lives. I have definitely seen it first hand. I have worked full time in a church since 2001, not as a Pastor but as a creative professional. My parents have Pastored our church since they began it in 1981. I would describe our church as a medium sized church (600 adults). I have seen first hand how true Christ-like leadership can impact lives for the better.
There are Christians and Churches that give us as a whole a bad name. There are good churches and good christians out there. It’s not an oxymoron 🙂
@shannikitty It really does. My reasons accepting my no belief had more to do with examining the evidence on a personal level but this attitude that is sold disgusts me. Its a reason I have never associated myself with any church I have ever gone to.
I read a book by Hemant Mehta called ‘How I Sold My Soul On Ebay’ and it discussed how he sold the right to send him to a church of the winners choice. He is an atheist who runs a blog called the Friendly Atheist. He did not go in and attack the beliefs but told these churches what they were doing wrong when it comes to bringing in new believers. This is the reason you don’t have non believers, or doubters, lining up at your door. It saddens me because I have met some very compassionate christians (or people of other faiths) but your image is already damaged by the outspoken minority.
You have a good head on your shoulders. This world needs more people who understand what is really going on.
If anybody would like to email me please feel free to do so. I’m not all that scary lol
justin . olsen 116 at gmail com without the spaces. Don’t want any spam.
@Jay I agree. But you don’t see those good churches because those that abuse the system are way too loud. It doesn’t only apply to religion either. Or one side of the argument. There are just more of you. I’ve seen many atheists that I don’t want to associate myself with the same way I don’t want to associate myself with many of these christians who ruin it for the rest of them.
Ron Luce said it best THE HONOR ACADEMY IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. and might I add…Nor is the military, private school, public school or shopping at walmart! Basically if you don’t want to follow the rules that have been set in place then pack your bags and take your tail back to where you came from!
As a supporter of this blog, and someone who was very excited that it/these issues got some national media attention, I actually have a criticism of the show! 🙂
Seriously though, I do. In the interest of changing the subject, which I’m happy didn’t turn into a flame war, here is something I didn’t like:
It felt like the script and final cut made it appear as though the Honor Academy is predominately made up of events like ESOAL. I am one of ESOAL’s and the Honor Academy’s biggest critics, but were I an outside observer, who knew nothing about the HA, I might be left with the impression that interns spend the majority of their year rolling through mud in military helmets.
Towards the end, I was very happy with the direction it took, dealing more with the personal recovery stories of the brave young women involved in this documentary. However, on the hole, I felt that it was a bit skewed towards highlighting some of the more “salacious” parts of the program.
@Anonymous 11:27 Ron Luce is peddling HIS version of Jesus. And fyi people are on this site due to being abused, lied to, and sometimes lied about–please read the true stories section of this site because it’s actually not about the rules. It is the heart, well lack of heart behind this man-made salvation. TM runs the HA thick with what I can only assume was inspired by Jewish laws/the OT covenant. They do not operate under the law of Grace. Having been in TM as well as a legalistic Torah movement, I can safely say the two have more in common with each other than Jesus and the cross.
Dan – That was definitely one of my main concerns prior to seeing the show – I was really hoping they would focus on the program as a whole and not just ESOAL. I think its impossible to cover everything in 42 minutes, but I’m so glad they discussed the working environment..
Touching on Lifton’s criteria was good too, but it really didn’t get into the meat of it. I remember we spent a good couple hours going through those criteria and I was really surprised how many examples we could come up with for each one of them. That was quite eye opening.
The other thing that stood out to me as lacking – and again, I think it was only b/c of time constraints – is that you heard from us how it affected us – but not sure that non-participants would really understand WHY we felt that way. We talked about being anxious, isolated, etc – but weren’t able to delve into the meat of WHY and I think thats an important aspect.
Overall though, I am pleased with the project and I think it was extermely fair. Current interns and leadership got a lot of screen time.
I’m an atheist who attending several ATF events and went on a GE mission trip as a teenager…I have several friends who are alums and I spent time volunteering at Teen Mania, so that’s my background/connection. And I really only have one thing to say…Dave Hasz is /so clearly/ a high-functioning sociopath. I never really met him because he does HA and I was never an intern, but from the documentary, even from just his brief appearance, it’s just painfully, achingly obvious.
p.s. I knew something was very, very strange when I visited my brother at HA as a volunteer. The day I got there I ran up to him and hugged him and he swung me around, and for the rest of the day, literally for hours, people were approaching him and asking who I was in a very, very accusatory tone. When he told them I was his sister, their response? “Good, I didn’t want to have to report you.” And some of you kooks say this ISN’T a cult. Ha.
God is love ,God is good . We as Christians should take a big responsibility on what we say and how we treat other people. Jesus called us not to judge but to love one another one matter what. God will help and protect all of us on earth. All we have to do is ask. I fill for the woman on this show and saddened that this has happened to them . I an even more saddened that Christians are portrayed as cult followers and that they hate. I am not a hateful follower of a cult. God gives us all a chance. We as Christians should too. Jesus did and love everyone the same way. I pray these women on the show and all the others out there find healing and overcome. As well as to forgive so it can bring them a peace with in themselves.
I just wanted to comment on a statement that was posted earlier about Teen Mania only being for outgoing, Type A leaders. Before attending the HA, I had been categorized as such. I find it so ironic that you think that those are the people who do well in such a situation. I remember thinking while I was there that the people who seemed the most happy and fulfilled in their roles as TM interns were those who didn’t originally have the tendency to lead or to have strong opinions of their own going in. I was very frustrated there because I felt that I was being asked to bend into the mold that they had dubbed as “leadership”, but yet not to be too attached to my own thoughts. It was a contradiction in terms, that the best “leaders” were perfectly unquestioning followers. From where I stand now, I can see why they would want this, but while I was there I was routinely frustrated that it seemed like those who were able to parrot and pass on what staff said (and not the ones who truly were thinking critically)were the ones who seemed to rise on the intern heirarchy of leadership.
I am a former intern I was there for 2 years and I must say it was the best 2 years of my life! Was it challenging? Yes! But I would not be who I am today had I not gone to the Honor Academy! I was able to hear the Lord clearer and learn what I believed and why I believed it! I also participated in ESOAL and completed 36 hours and when I rang out did not feel condemned! After I rang out my major told me who knew I gave it my all and he was proud of me! I think msnbc should have spoken to alumni with good experiences instead of bias remarks! While I was at Teen Mania I worked for Ron directly and must say he is an awesome man of God! I also don’t understand why you are speaking out against other men and women of God who claim to be Christians! The bible speaks directly to that as well! But overall I pray God’s blessing on you all!
Jay, do you have any clue how judgmental you sound? Maybe you and the other pro Mania alumni need to be praying for these young women rather than condemning them and saying hurtful things.
I think the saddest thing about comments like “get over it and move on,” or “HA does such great work in the world” is the assumption that some people are expendable. It’s apparently ok if a few end up damaged, angry, or leave the faith entirely because so many are brought into the faith or have their faith strengthened. That’s pretty much the opposite of the Parable of the Good Shepherd. That one little sheep turned out to be important. Not because it was a particularly good sheep–heck, it ran off and got lost! Not because it was a leader of sheep. But simply because it was the Shepherd’s sheep, and it got lost.
It’s never ok to sacrifice someone because good came out of it. That’s a very nasty road to walk down.
Many thanks to the ladies who shared their stories on the program tonight. That can’t have been easy.
Lyndsey ’09- you might have missed it, but the documentary included interviews from at least three current interns, all with positive experiences and stories surrounding their TM life.
this isn’t about right and wrong ways to worship. it’s about irresponsible adults abusing teens. these east texas fundi xtian cults have got to go. they are the xtian taliban, terrorists!
To all these teen mania trolls claiming that everything is well, I hope you realize that PTSD doesn’t set in for a few years. You too may be a little socially inept when it kicks in. Teen mania is an abusive and inhumane cult. It’s run by adults who corrupt the children.
To all you wanna be christian trollolololols staying up late at the teen mania call center, you are part of the problem, you live in false consciousness, false enlightenment, a brainwashing cult, you will lose this game, you are duped. Shed your entitlement, you judgment, your pagan ways, you are of this world and 100% in denial of truth. You will get what you deserve for being the scum of society. Adults corrupting children, teenagers living in falsehood, you will feel so stupid later for how you behave today.
Its not the current intern’s fault if they are brainwashed, so lets go easy on them. They are victims. The real fault lies with the perpetrators…I’d rather not bash the victims who will hopefully one day make a full recovery.
Here, here, I say that Ron Luce needs to be investigated by the feds, especially by the IRS and FBI, for running a child slave camp and for abusing children at the tune of 18 million a year. It shouldn’t stop there, all these fundi extremists groups in east Texas, even YWAM and its associates, ought to be investigated, imprisoned, and exposed as complete frauds. It breaks my heart that so many have suffered abuse at their hands. Their self righteous entitlement makes me want to vomit. Hurting children in the name of Jesus, you ought to be ashamed. These people are psychopaths!
I am deeply saddened by this video and this site. I am an Alumni, and I am an active christian and a Youth Pastor. I have embraced some of TM teachings and turned away from some, just as we all do with our parents, schools, and churches. The fact of the matter is, the teachings were straight out of the Bible, ESOAL was optional, and the strict rules were always rolled out as something you do for the year, not life. I’m sorry, I know you’ve all got told that you were a victim of a cult, but by the very definition of a cult (posted by someone earlier) any Ministry or Church will fall into that category. You were right, we were kids. and I met so many interns who were not mature enough to follow any rule or authority, not even the small stuff. As some of you stated, you didn’t like it and left, good! you shouldn’t stay somewhere you feel isn’t safe. but you are a minority, most of the Alumni leave and live very successful, God centered lives and can’t comprehend the victim mentality you claim. is it cause we are all brainwashed? no. like I said, I don’t hold to some of the things I was taught at the HA. but if this were a cult, and if we were brainwashed, then why is it that we all left with different beliefs, different convictions, and different goals in life? is it that we were brainwashed to do so? or more likely, that they did what they said, lead us to finding our vision, grow our walk, and mature our faith. TM isn’t flawless, nothing man does is, but an evil cult it is not. I respect your opinion, but stop going around tarnishing a Godly organisations name. when you do that, all you accomplish is tarnishing what they teach (the Bible) and the thousands of Alumni who are in the world actually doing something for Christ. If you want your story out, have some alumni talk with you, on camera, debate, converse, show both sides. don’t just show clips of ESOAL and snippets of Ron or Dave speaking making it seem like what you’re claiming is truth. I’m sorry, but if you want to reveal the “truth” don’t cut and past thing with little to no context. I, as well as many other alumni would love to talk to you and share our experience, but you and MSNBC don’t want that. to close, I’m truly sorry you were hurt, but that doesn’t give you the right to hurt others, and I feel deeply offended by how you went about this.
how is that comment bitter? I went out of my way to say how sorry I am for the hurt those girls feel. but I’m not allowed to be offended about a slanted documentary? seems like a double standard.
It is truly sad how the documentary and these comments are so one sided. I heard about the video and sought out a way to start a conversation about this topic. I want my side heard, but also want to have a real conversation with those who feel like the HA was a cult. but most of what I’ve seen is one sided comments, overly defensive comments, and comments with people who have NEVER even been interns! is it too much to ask to have a mature, Godly conversation about the issue? and supposedly I’m the brainwashed one.
@Topher I can tell you that these types of concerns do not only happen at HA. I might not be an intern or an alumni but I have experienced a lot of verbal abuse when it comes to christianity. Always open to discuss the subject. Email is in the comments.
@justin, thank you for your comments. I didn’t mean to throw out your comments, or anyone else’s, I just feel the hurt interns, mostly the one’s behind this video, need to be willing for open dialogue. you are, and for that, I respect you.
I am sorry on behalf of christians for whatever you went through, I don’t pretend to justify it at all.
I did go through what these girls did and see a completely different picture. I feel that my, and all the other interns like me, need a say. this video was on tv for all to see, and it was horribly biased.
Overall I thought the video was pretty good….it definitely showed both sides and I thought that was fair. I can see people not wanting to go to the HA because of seeing this video but I also could see alot of people wanting to go to the HA because of what they saw.
Ultimately the one criticism that I have that I think Micah and several others hit on is the ESOAL footage. I think that the world is being shown that is what the HA is 24/7 which we all know is not true. Furthermore, yes they changed things and do things differently but yet we keep showing the same old footage…I would think there would be more credibility to gain if we actually showed up to date recent footage, yes?
Overall I thought it was decent and I pray that the girls interviewed will continue to gain the healing that they need. I also pray for David Hasz, Ron Luce and the ministry as a whole that God would continue to open their eyes and hearts wider to His neverending love and grace.
I can see where you are coming from. However, from an outsiders point of view it comes across as throwing a ‘but’ into the argument. Its like saying we have these seemingly real, genuine acts of abuse that took place but look at all the good that has come from it.
I understand that there is a lot of good that comes out of this organization, whether I believe in it or not. But whether you have 5 or 1000 stories of this kind of abuse I think the real story that should be reported is that abuse. This isn’t directed at you but I feel that some of the responses have downplayed what these girls went through. I feel its a way to justify these programs when even 1 case of abuse is 1 too many.
Look at it this way….if you take out the religous aspect and put it into a school of 5000. You’ve got 5 people that were victimized while the rest were just fine the story would revolve around those victims. Nobody would say a thing. People would realize that its inexcusable what happened despite the good that has come out of the rest of this program. Why then should it be different with religion?
Anyway, not trying to argue. I could go on for days and this is not the time or the place for most of my views on christianity and religion in general. Abuse is bad no matter the type or venue. It needs to be stopped.
Like I previously said in the comments I am more than willing to continue the discussion outside this blog if you have any questions. justin . olsen 116 at gmail com. Without the spaces. Have a good night everybody.
I lost count of the blatant lies in the “documentary.” Pathetic excuse for journalism. Unbelievable twisting, distorting, deceitfulness, etc. I believe there is genuine hurt because I have felt it, but holy cow what a disgusting video.
and that’s the problem I have, 5 out of 500. I could be the 1 guy that get sick eating a specific restaurant. did I get sick? yes. was it the restaurants fault? possibly. should I publicly accuse the restaurant for being poison using slanted footage and bias? no.
the sad, sad truth is that the issue is not “is the HA a cult” it’s “why did these girls get hurt?” the answer? their perception. Did Dave Hasz force her do do ESOAL, a strictly optional event that we were warned the Staff would act as drill instructers through? no, she felt guilty if she didn’t, even though the only time you were “looked down on” is within the event. I for one “rang out” and was immediately greeted with love and caring by the staff, who had been playing as drill instructers earlier.
were the offices too hot? probably, it was Texas. some people never got used to it, it’s my experience that those building were always freezing to over compensate for the heat outside.
were interns restricted from outside contact? not at all, there were dorm phones that were time restricted, sure, but cell phones and emails were allowed and unrestricted, and all the interns frequently left campus to enjoy the towns around to shop, eat, go see movies, and whatever else they wanted to do.
Yes, we worked, it’s an INTERNSHIP! I for one, am glad for this fact as it gave me hands on training for ministry, training I use even now.
The teachings were straight from the Bible, and both Dave and Ron encouraged us to do our own research and come to our own conclusions.
the other events we did like the fasting? well, most christians practice fasting.
the missionary role play? it to was optional, you could leave if you wanted, I had an asthma attack during mine and chose to be done with it with no negative repercussions. I knew many more who got bored and quit.
the point I’m trying to make is this, the girls weren’t “brainwashed” they were young, but into a place that had strict rules on conduct and were made to work, study, make hard choices, and face themselves in a real way, and they didn’t like it. They took it as they were FORCED into it, were as most of us knew exactly what we were getting into.
all their stories sound horrible stated the way they are, with images of a 2 day event played off as daily life. but I fail to see how if you’re insecure and can’t stand the thought of letting someone down. or if you can’t stand the physical requirements (30 min of exercise every other day) or if you feel that choosing a working internship shouldn’t require you to work. amounts to abuse? I bet they think their parents giving out chores or not allowing certain behavior is abuse.
if you disagree, lets talk! if I’ve skewed the facts about this so called Cult, lets discuss it! come on former interns! alumni! christians! lets talk about the real issues, because most of the stuff said in the video, as I pointed out, if false or half truths. what am I missing?
Just saying, these girls have problems like the rest of the world. IDK why they choose to blame TM. Judging by the video, they didnt go through crap at TM.
Please read some of the stories if you still doubt what TM has put people through. I know when I was in the internship ESOAL was “optional” meaning I was hounded for opting out and “refusing to let God work in my life.”
As far as someone saying the unreached people retreat was optional? That was a standard, required event when I was there. It was also the one and only time in my intern year that I was disobedient–I demanded to leave as did a coremate. One reason I’ve yet to write much about that experience is that it was by far the most obviously EVIL thing. I was physically sick and truly frightened.
Again I believe most of the questions saying “what am I missing” are addressed in the true stories. I for one cannot continue to repost the many ways I was advised and my life was endangered every time someone comments on this site and calls the recovering alumni.
Many people are also missing the seriousness and cleverness of mind control. Most people believe they are immune and that means they will discount the evidence. And TM carries on the message that recovering interns were not cut out for the program, were all suffering from issues of rebellion etc.
At any rate I know that God blesses the meek, the persecuted, the abused, etc. so I will not allow TM or supporters manipulate me anymore. I, like Mica and countless others have lost my entire 20s. I’m not giving away the next decade without a fight!
As a psychologist the people on here who “defend” TM as well as the kids having a wonderful internship would only give head to the use of mind alteration techniques being used by TM. The fact that most “Defenders” attack the hurting instead of talking about the issues shows a lack of argument so a quickness to attack the downtrodden. This wasn’t what God taught anywhere in the bible. That most use psychological fallacies to “prove their point” creates a further harm and victimization that is rather hurtful to all involved. Perhaps instead of attacking the hurting you could work on living and loving as someone who knew the true Loving GOD who’s whole law is summed up in two sections according to Christ Jesus: Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself!
I am deeply grieved at the “socially inept” comment. It’s hard to bare your soul on national television, especially when it’s about a huge organization. But even if you still maintain your opinion, don’t forget these famous words:
‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
I think That Redheaded one and Hillary just said it all.
And on the same train of thought…If TM is willing to hurt their very own interns and not give a loving and caring response to them not matter who is at fault, I wonder how many people the Teen Mania Machine has hurt around the globe. Just my Thoughts…
I’m wondering about this because it is for the so called weak and lost that they say they go on all those mission trips. Seriously, they are not that accepting of the weak or the lost. So many TM supporters prowl around and troll this site like a lion waiting for someone whom they can devour.
To everyone sitting in judgment of the women in the documentary and the rest of us who have claimed abuse: there is really nothing hurtful you can say that we haven’t already said to ourselves.
We left an abusive program and became self-abusers. I think this site is here to help us unlearn some of that.
@The Redhead One. What type of Physchology have your studies and what are your credentials? Because your comment does not sound honest, more based on oppionion than reseach training or facts. Oh course speaking as a Physchology student:)
I am very disappointed that the entire HA program was not properly reported on. The MSNBC show was very bias. I am sorry that these ladies were emotioally hurt and for that I am glad they are getting the help they need. But even in the way they talked about the HA was full of bias and spite. The Lord has done amazing things in 1000’s of people who have come (and gone freely). If you have a story share it, but be honest and don’t intentially spin it to make the other side look darker than it really is. If you are honest in seeking the Lord yourself, don’t try to destroy something he is using for the good.
I hope this is fair enough to not be deleted by the admin. I hope this is a site for balance and conversation, not just one sided talk.
I was on staff at TM for two years (several yeras ago) – I was not aware of all the events that took place since I did not work in HA- but I know that our interns were hurting, physically abused- sometimes by fatigue, lack of medical care, verbally assaulted etc. I am also a parent and realized very quickly that my own children would never be allowed to participate- I know that some interns come out positive but there are HUGE numbers that come out needing help, take years to recover, leave the church etc- definitely NOT positive outcomes. Alot of the kids used to hang out at my house and when I did hear tidbits of the events (they didnt talk about them due to signing that form)- it was very easy to discern that things were not good for a large majority of the students.
I dont believe that most of the kids there are old enough (yes they are often legally adults) to withstand the pressures and brainwashing to NOT participate in so called optional events- they are coerced mentally to buy into the thought processes at TM.
The kids are TM are wonderful- pure motives, great hopes and dreams and truthfully, many of the staff are also wonderful and completely unaware of what really goes on in the dorms and at ESOAL or the old Cross walk events- in my opinion, the problem lies within a fairly small who are in Leadership, especially within the HA.
Using the logic used in the MSNBC presentation, most religious organizations could be considered a cult. Academics would disregard the presentation; courts would go looking for the other side of the story. The show came off as exaggerated, overly-dramatic, manipulative and staged. MSNBC clearly needs the ratings as much as those participating wanted the attention. Shoddy journalism, poor production, and certainly nothing to be proud of for anyone involved.
Anon, The dean of my department watched it with me and thought it was a fair representation showing what the program is like from the inside as well as what former members saw that would make these claims. You making baseless statements is uncalled for and pretty lacking in dignity!
First things first- congratulations and THANK YOU to the young ladies who were willing to bare their souls on this program- it was VERY brave and Im sure VERY difficult. You may take some difficult criticisms but please know that there are many more who will be helped by the telling of your story. Part of the whole cult/trauma reaction to TM is that MANY MANY interns leave feeling they are the only ones who feel like they do and have those regrets – this blog and programs like that go a long way to make it OK to accept healing.
Actually, I don’t stand alone, my friend. The show presented 100% of a ministry in a negative light. They failed to interview a single person who had graduated from the program. Yes, they told the story that they wanted to tell (and the one you wanted them to tell), but, it’s pretty easy to tell any story you want with creative editing and by limiting your sources, a statement I’m sure the dean of your department would understand.
@That redheaded one, What school do you go to? You painting EVERYONE that “defends” TM as weak and susceptable to mind control is way over gernarlizing, lacking integrity and in your words only dignity.
The comments about “media bias” are amusing, as the documentary clearly showed not only several interviews with current interns, but many segments with Ron Luce and Dave Hasz themselves. Were they “100% negative” about their own ministry? C’mon!
The program’s closing note was that MSNBC asked Ron Luce for further comments on the cult allegations once that segment had been filmed, but he declined to be interviewed again. Well then, he’s in no position to complain.
It’s interesting when people side with abusers. I grew up with the harm of an abusive, neglecting, and purely evil father. He was also very well-repected among a network of high-profile people. Whenever people found out my father was an artist and knew the murals he had painted, they would tell me how lucky I was and what a great man he was. When he died a few years ago, I had to go through a lot of abuse by the people who supported him. They felt that they knew him and that they knew he would never harm anyone. Their image of him did not change the truth.
It’s the same with TM, Ron and Dave. Yes, people love and respect them. Yup, people will continue to sing the praises of the ministry. It doesn’t negate the damage and abuse they have inflicted.
Jesus did not promote or prepare physical and mental hazing to be close to him. (And there is a difference between trials from God and abuse from TM!) I do not see why DH, RL and HS, etc. do what they do… this is not Jesus they are sharing.
My heart aches for those who have come out of the HA hurt like this. I too was emotionally abused while working overseas on the mission field (not with TM though). It took me years to forgive and get back to my normal independent, fun loving self. I also know though that those people love Jesus and are doing so much good for the kingdom of heaven. What they did to me was wrong and sure I wanted to take them down at points, but I knew that wasn’t what God wanted. We are all human, making mistakes. I just wish that Ron Luce and Teen Mania would apologize and offer support and help for these people. Also reevaluate the way they run their programs. I know Teen Mania does tons of good and has changed lives for the better (not brainwashed). But if people have been harmed in any way they should be the first to come along side of them. I know how much these women want to get their story out, but it’s sad that they have to drag an overall good organization who desires to make a difference for Jesus down to a world that hates Jesus and doesn’t understand the truth of the Bible. I pray each person effected negatively by TM will find healing and restoration as well as forgiveness as I have through my abuse. I also pray that TM will apologize and reevaluate the way they do things so they can continue making an impact on the world.
Anonymous– I work in media, so I think I’ve got it covered. I’m not saying I would have edited the story the same way myself, but it’s just plain wrong when some commenters are saying (here and elsewhere) that the coverage was “100% negative” and “they didn’t interview anyone who had a positive view” and “they didn’t interview any current interns…”
When Ron said that “it’s not for everyone,” I was sickened.
That is EXACTLY how they reeled us in. They said “this isn’t for everyone”, “you’re going to change the world”, “you are doing this because you are ON FIRE for God!”
So they use that line to get us in, but when we cry out about what they are doing and how we were deceived, they use the same line again.
“It’s not for everyone.” “We warned you when you got here that it would be hard.” “We told you God would push you beyond your limits.” “God wants you to finish what you started.”
Classic mind control which also makes it hard to leave. Personally, when I was there, I didn’t want to leave and admit that I wasn’t on fire for God/good enough for Him. I didn’t want to “wimp out”. And I didn’t respect the people who did leave early because they proved to everyone they weren’t really willing to change the world.
Uh, NO. GOD did not push me past my limits. That was DH, RL, and other adult staff. Last time I checked they aren’t God.
Whether you think the documentary is one-sided or not, the thing to focus on here is that what Ron Luce and his group are teaching and doing is not at all biblical. The Bible teaches that Christ is to be our example. Did Christ ask his disciples to crawl through freezing mud? Did he manipulate them into eating worms to prove their devotion? Did he scream insults at them whenever they showed a moment of weakness? No. Not even after his disciples denied him during his greatest moment of need.
Ron Luce would have people believe that “real” Christians are the ones that survive his program, while everyone else is “insincere” or “fake.” The Bible makes no such distinctions between believers. The apostle Paul said that the weaker brother is to receive consideration and encouragement, not judgment and condemnation. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christians should prepare for trials and persecution by putting themselves through a physical boot camp. In fact, just the opposite: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against…spiritual wickedness in high places” (Eph. 6:12).
I personally know one of the women in the video. We were friends in high school. The person I knew then and the person in the video are two different people. The person I knew in high school was a vibrant, outgoing, passionately Christian woman. She had several close friends and a clean social life. She loved nothing more than to be in a worship service, and she talked about someday becoming a missionary. After she joined TM, I ran into her a couple of times at ATF events; she looked exhausted and hardly even acknowledged me. Now she sits in counseling, broken and lonely. The sparkle is gone from her eye. The enthusiasm is gone from her voice. Her smile has all but vanished. TM took this wonderful person totally willing to make a difference for God and ripped all the passion out of her soul. And this is discipleship? Let’s ask God and see what He thinks!
Someday, Ron Luce will have to answer to God for this demonic (yes, demonic!) version of the gospel he has perpetuated on America’s youth.
Concerning what I’ve seen of ESOAL, I just can’t help saying: Jesus doesn’t call us to push ourselves beyond our perceived limits; He calls us to depend wholly, entirely, utterly on Him. And when we’re burdened, He calls us to give our burdens completely over to Him, not to carry them with His strength. Events like this are made to sound godly, like they’re pushing people to trust in God, when in reality they seem to make the individual feel either like crap because they can’t do it, or like some special person because they can. Whether or not we can deem HA a “cult,” I’m sickened by the spiritual abuse and the very apparent expectation of perfection that is pervasive in a lot of TM’s teachings.
Personally, I’m praising God for this national coverage!!! Thank you, ladies, for sharing your stories so publicly. (I look forward to getting some male perspectives out in public, too.:) May the *truth* be told, and the people (interns, alumni, even leaders) be set free!
hmm… I guess I’m surprised that so many people were so hurt by their experiences at the HA, but it’s good that people are free to share and express their opinions. This is America after all, and as a member of the Military, as well as an HA Alumni, I think that is of great importance. Everyone experiences life events differently, and the only way to learn from experiences and grow as a person is not to hide what happened or be ashamed of it, but to expose and identify in order to find the truth. I agree that LOVE is not emphasized at the HA, and I think that it should be one of the core values or pillars. If truth and love are the ultimate goals, as I think they should be, I don’t think that people on either side are approaching this the right way. Is anyone searching for a solution?
once again, there is nothing at TM concerning christianity, only adults abusing teenagers and making big money while they’re at it. There is no excuse for this behavior on the part of TM. Navy Seal training is for people in the armed forces, not for teenagers. As the victims sober up from their trauma, they suffer horrible things. This is not religion, it is abuse, pure and simple.
“could you imagine all of the “NON RECOVERING ALUMNI” there are out there.. THOUSANDS.. lets get there stories- and lets get them on the news.. I think that should drown out the voices of a hundread of less story tellers.”
…. WOW.
Cause when Jesus found the one sheep, he kicked it to the side and told the 99 others to drown out its cries with their bleating.
Wow. Stunned.
Not saying you shouldn’t have a voice, not at all- please, you SHOULD be able to freely talk about your positive experiences. But to say that great experiences should negate cases of ABUSE? Wow.
I’m glad some people had positive experiences but I find it disturbing that you want to “drown out the voices of a hundres or less story tellers”. That type of attitude, to me, exhibits the abusive stance that is being discussed. Not that it is deliberately abusive, but why would you feel the need to “drown out” those who are hurting? Is there something wrong, unChristian, immoral, or unethical in hurting? And why would you find hurting and talking about hurting so threatening? This is the very attitude that is found, not only apparantly at Honor Academy, but in countless other ministries and churches. Hurt is a part of life and a part of our relationships as humans. I mean no harm to the poster but I think this is something to think about.
But how can you define what was abuse or hurtful to someone else? And why would you want to? Are you saying Honor Academy was perfect? Are you saying no one is hurt there?
“Thats the point.. We dont think it was abuse.. AT ALL.”
What you think is irrelevant. I watched the video. Are you saying that MSNBC staged the ESOAL footage? Those interns going through ESOAL, were they sobbing because they were experiencing the holy presence of God? Or where they crying because some guy was telling them that they were “weak losers” for not being able to choke back their vomit? No matter what you thought of your experience or the amount of “good” that TM does, THAT IS NEITHER BIBLICAL NOR HEALTHY! What Ron Luce is doing is a perversion of the gospel, and it should be called out for exactly what it is.
@anonymous 11:59 I’m not sure who “we” is in your statement. But if you don’t consider it abuse and believe we are all liars, let me pull a “TM” out for you: “Sorry that you feel that way.”
What many people do not understand is that the shame of what was going on caused many (now-recovering) interns to believe that their feelings were wrong, selfish, lies, or their fault due to sin or attitude. Many of us wore plastic smiles just to get through the day. Some of us, like RA believed in the cause so much the contributed to the abuse. I contributed to the abuse in how I once judged people who had left HA or left their walk with God. Now I love and pray from them.
And you know, particularly in what is supposed to be a Christian program, even just the lack of love is abuse. The obvious zeal and pleasure in which TM Staff and GIs berate God’s children in their “Drill Sargent” role-playing IS abuse. People breaking other people down spiritually/emotionally/physically is abuse. While I certainly believe we will be tried and that God will need to break us at some point, I also believe that God will not break us through through the evil actions of Godly men.
I would love to know how these staff differ from Pharisees and Sadducees.
I’m not an Honor Acadamy alumni, but I have experienced similar hurts in various other ministry settings. I don’t think the label “cult” is the issue. I’m glad that people have come forth on this documentary to tell about the hurt they experienced. Hurt and/or abuse does not have to be deliberate. It can be at times, well intended. I think it is good to have a forum for those who have been hurt. I recall Mr. Duncan in the documentary saying that the Honor Academy met all 5 of Mr. Lipton’s points. I agree that many other churches and ministries could be called “cults”. I think the main point is to evaluate what is hurting people, what are the problems, and how to adress that.
Sorry I need to clarify what I said above: While I certainly believe we will be tried and that God will need to break us at some point, I also believe that God will not break us through through the evil actions of Godly men… and praise those men for doing His work.
Can you imagine God handing out kudos to those who took pleasure as facilitators in ESOAL and The Gauntlet? What would He say? Good job making them cry? Do you think the Holy Spirit is giving Heath and Dave the words to speak when they yell at interns and they “wimped out”?
The God and Jesus I worship teach the power of words. Words give life or death. God’s Word brought this world into being and He made us in His image, so I don’t want to take my words lightly. I’m not gonna waste my breath calling people names in an effort to “make them stronger.” People should read the book, “Words that Hurt, Words that Heal.” It may give you pause.
We persevere and grow close to God IN SPITE of adversity. We thank God for our persecutions because of the opportunity we have been given to love ,etc. But we should not be seeking it (adversity, pain, etc.) out or we are walking a fine line to self-abuse.
If you love Teen Mania, then don’t you want to find out whether any of these things are true? Even if you had a great experience, read through these stories and see if you personally witnessed any of these types of abuses. Even if it didn’t happen to you, you know of at least one intern who was pushed too hard on one occasion. You may not care that it happened and you’re totally cool with it, but you know stuff like this really happened!
If you love the HA, don’t you want it to be the best it can be? I’ve heard so many pro-TMers basically say that if you weren’t smart enough to throw out any of the bad teaching you received at the HA, you’re an idiot. Don’t you think that bad teaching is a bad thing? Wouldn’t you like to see all the teaching be on point and Bible based? So would we!
If you believe that TM is doing God’s work, aren’t they under God’s protection? If these are all false allegations, isn’t God powerful enough to protect TM from “attacks of the enemy” or “lies of the devil”? Then why are you so afraid of people sharing their stories?? Maybe you are really afraid these stories ARE true!!! Wooooh!!! Spooky!
If you think the people on this site are your enemy or the enemy of TM, doesn’t the Bible teach in Matthew 5:44, “44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” If this is what Jesus commanded, then why do you come here and call people names? That’s NOT how Jesus told you to handle the situation!
Jesus said PRAY for those who persecute you, not mock them and call them names until you make them cry!
There are many of us who have made our own individual and group efforts to seek reconciliation and to address the issues and concerns that we have from our experiences at our time with TM. TM has not responded to the ‘accountability’; nor responded in a Christ-like manner to the hurts we have expressed. This has been done to show respect to our faith as directed and to avoid causing a black eye to followers of Christ and to not embitter those who are not Belivers. Unfortunately, TMs lack of appropriate response has only left many with the option of bringing this to the larger public forum to expose the truth, hurts and -hopefully, eventually – seek solutions.
As for seeking a solution: I wrote an Open Letter to the Board at TM and put forth many suggestions for seeking solutions that would benefit both the hurting and those who do not feel they were hurt. Feel free to do a simple search and you’ll find the letter.
Now… as for the wonderfully unproductive bickering and attacking of people… remember, if you are not part of the solution yourself, than you are a part of the problem. That is to say: SHOW CHRIST-LIKE LOVE AND COMPASSION FOR THOSE OF US WHO WHERE HURT.
God Bless and (please) may you be a blessing ~ Blue Lantern
While we’re at it, let’s put ESOAL into perspective. I went through Army boot camp in 2001. Yes, it was very physically challenging. I had to crawl through the dirt on more than one occasion, function on limited sleep, and do things I did not feel adequately capable of doing. However:
I was never offered nor encouraged to eat worms or other retch-inducing “foods.”
I was never forced to sleep on pavement or outdoors without proper gear.
I was never awakened in the middle of the night to douse myself with cold water.
I was never told my entire life would be a failure if I didn’t complete a challenge.
I was never called a “loser” for failing to complete a challenge.
I was never required or expected to go without food. In fact, eating was encouraged to keep the body healthy for physical activity.
I was never forced to stand in the cold or rain without protective gear.
I was never told that God would be disappointed in me if I didn’t finish boot camp.
FACT: If the military did to people what ESOAL does, they would be sued.
Have any of you actually DONE ESOAL? I did, as did many of my friends and it was one of the hardest and most rewarding experiences of my life. I know some of these crying people like the ones in the video, heck I was one! but the truth is the staff didn’t just get off on being mean, they were playing a role to bring about the needed outcome. I was one of those staff the next year. I was “mean” but after the event I also loved on the interns and was thanked by those same interns for pushing them. the fact is, if you had a problem with the HA while you were there, that’s fine. what isn’t is to paint it in a way that make the intentions of the staff different than what they were. I could say I was abused by anything, and people would rally around me because everyone loves a good victim story. the truth is the “abuse” those girls faced was self abuse. they chose to work at a ministry who’s first week pushed people just to show what you were in for and to give you the opportunity to leave if it wasn’t for you. they rolled out the rules, the exercise, the job aspect, the school aspect, all in the first week so that no one was “shocked about the program. please, if you’ve never been an intern, don’t blindly accept the slanted video with out hearing the other side. and if you have been an intern, really examine what you’re claiming, were you “tricked and abused”? or were you warned and decided to do the internship anyway. no one forced you to go or to stay, in fact, you PAID to stay!
@anonymous 12:50 All I can say is God bless you. (But note since I am personally very obese, I should just shut up and remember that no one wants to hear my voice. Including God so God probably didnt hear me either…)
Topher, I think you are missing that people stayed and paid to be there due to the spiritual abuse. Please read the true stories section of this site. The issues go way beyond ESOAL.
@Anon….Seriously? You are just a troll…That was totally uncalled for. I seriously hope you are not a TM supporter either…WOW. Regardless of how she feels, the personal attacks are TOTALLY out of line. Check yourself.
Anon 1:01 I actually DID go on the ABC diet.Shortly after my experience with the HA.Years later I began to compulsively overeat. I was not obese in HA.
If the HA in general and ESOAL in particular are supposed to be training for persecution by the world, doesn’t that actually display a profound lack of faith in God and in the Holy Spirit’s ability to give us strength when we need it?
The martyrs of the early Church never put themselves through anything like this, and they stood up for their faith while being tortured with hot oil, wild animals, flaying, even being used as torches in the Roman Emperor’s garden. None of that was accomplished by their own strength, by “training,” or by boot-camp tactics. In fact, those who went out and specifically sought out martyrdom for its own sake were rebuked.
Instead, the early Church formed a strong community, where people were loved, even the people that society didn’t think much of (women, slaves, etc). All believers were welcomed in and those who sought to enforce extra rules (the Judaizers and others) were eventually denied.
It’s not about how strong you are, and it never has been. It’s about how strong God is, and He gives strength when it is needed.
Everyone should heed the words of “The Devil’s Advocate” above:
“If you love Teen Mania, then don’t you want to find out whether any of these things are true? Even if you had a great experience, read through these stories and see if you personally witnessed any of these types of abuses. Even if it didn’t happen to you, you know of at least one intern who was pushed too hard on one occasion. You may not care that it happened and you’re totally cool with it, but you know stuff like this really happened! If you love the HA, don’t you want it to be the best it can be?” […] “Jesus said PRAY for those who persecute you, not mock them and call them names until you make them cry!”
Also, anon, again, you haven’t said anything I haven’t said myself. HA generated a strong pattern of self-abuse. I have called myself every bad thing in the book.
I realize your intent is to hurt me. I also realize my freedom in Christ Jesus means I do not have to take abuse. So I forgive you and pray you will find the joy we all strive for.
If you are less concerned with showing compassion to the hurting than with bolstering the reputation of those who hurt them, then there are plenty of words that describe you, but “follower of Jesus” is not among them.
To keep things in perspective as this all relates to key moments of past Church leadership training I figured I would post the following:
I’ve been studying John Wesley’s teaching method a lot latelyHere are a few key things I have uncovered.
For starters: He had 8 core concepts he drilled into his followers: 1. Human Nature is perfectible by God’s grace. 2. Learning comes by doing the will of God. 3. Mankind’s nature is perfected by participation in groups, not by acting as isolated individuals. 4. The spirit and practice of primitive Christianity can and must be recaptured. 5. Human progress will occur if people participate in “the means of grace” (Prayer, scripture reading, acts of service, worship, etc.). 6. The gospel must be presented to the poor. 7. Social evil is not to be “resisted” but overcome with good. 8. The primary function of spiritual/educational leadership is to equip others to lead and minister, not to preform the ministry personally.
Second, his organization was very inclusive of many whom the present church ignored…yet very exclusive as well. To be a part of John Wesley’s general congregation he called “The society” you had to join a small group and you had to be committed to that small group called a “Class meeting.” To be a part of the “Class meeting” you had to be open to a litany of intence accountability.
Wesley started with a group at Oxford called the “Holy Club.” They asked each other a series of 22 questions every week to hold each other accountable.
Just a suggestion but it might do us all some good to ask them of ourselves. Especially as tempers flair on both sides of this debate. Both RAs and non-RAs read this blog, so everyone please…check your hearts:
1. Am I consciously or unconsciously creating the impression that I am better than I really am? In other words, am I a hypocrite? 2. Am I honest in all my acts and words, or do I exaggerate? 3. Do I confidentially pass on to another what was told to me in confidence? 4. Can I be trusted? 5. Am I a slave to dress, friends, work or habits? 6. Am I self-conscious, self-pitying, or self justifying? 7. Did the bible live in me today? 8. Do I give it time to speak to me every day? 9. Am I enjoying prayer? 10. When did I last speak to someone else of my faith? 11. Do I pray about the money I spend? 12. Do I get to bed on time and get up on time? 13. Do I disobey God in anything? 14. Do I insist upon doing something upon doing about which my conscience is uneasy? 15. Am I defeated in any part of my life? 16. Am I jealous, impure, critical, irritable, touchy or distrustful? 17. How do I spend my spare time? 18. Am I proud? 19. Do I thank God that I am not as other people, especially as the Pharisees who despised the publican? 20. Is there anyone whom I fear, dislike, disown, criticize, hold a resentment toward, or disregard? If so, what am I doing about it? 21. Do I grumble or complain constantly? 22. Is Christ real to me?
So there it is. Take what you will from this as it relates to either side of this debate. It’d say there is something in there for all of us. Just trying to keep it real people.
For clarification sake that Wesley post was from me…Dan Goulson. Not the “Anonymous” everyone has been responding too. I didn’t have the title on the right setting when I hit “post comment.” My bad. This is a very lively discussion, though. I’m enjoying this. Ron and Dave are eventually going to have to respond to this more directly. I look forward to seeing that.
It is funny that they are now anti-teen mania yet one of the girls is still sporting a Global Expeditions back pack when she got picked up at the airport. Just an observation…
Hi anonymous 1:23 There are some good questions there and it’s thought-provoking, even though John Wesley isn’t someone I think we should all be trying to emulate (I prefer Jesus for that)… it may also be triggering for some of the recovering alumni including myself, I dont know how much feedback you will get on that list.
But I wanted to say thanks for posting and keeping it respectful! We all know it can be tough to do 🙂
After watching the documentary, I’m very disappointed at the context, as well as sad for the women whose stories we saw. I’m disappointed because they only interviewed 5 of over 8,000 graduates, and those 5 were all ones with bad experiences. I personally don’t agree with everything TM does, but I had a wonderful experience, and never felt manipulated, coerced, or forced in any way to do anything there. I’m very sorry to those who did–what an awful feeling that nobody should have to go through. I only wish MSNBC had shown both sides of the story instead of being clearly one-sided, and attempting to sway audiences who have never even heard of Teen Mania.
@angie & keith I used to feel the way you do, even though I went through abuse at TM. I did not think I had gone through abuse at the time, however. I thought I was inherently unlovable and that Jesus didn’t want me. I thought everything TM teachings said was true about us and God.
And even if it was a small minority of us who went through that, it’s pretty cruddy that the majority “who had a great time” didn’t stand up for us when we were belittled, neglected, or endangered. I understand why no one did–we were taught that a bad experience at HA was inconsequential or the result of sin.
It’s just that abuse should not be tolerated, even if it is happening only with SOME of us (though I do not believe that to be the case).
If the Honor Academy isn’t for everyone, then why do you accept as many people as you need to fill slots instead of only accepting the people the Honor Academy is FOR. Also, when the interns the Honor Academy is NOT for try to leave, why does leadership encourage them to stay? Why does leadership tell them they need to honor their commitment to this program that is NOT FOR them? Hmm?
@That redheaded one, What school do you go to? You painting EVERYONE that “defends” TM as weak and susceptable to mind control is way over gernarlizing, lacking integrity and in your words lacking dignity.
“If the Honor Academy isn’t for everyone, then why do you accept as many people as you need to fill slots instead of only accepting the people the Honor Academy is FOR. Also, when the interns the Honor Academy is NOT for try to leave, why does leadership encourage them to stay? Why does leadership tell them they need to honor their commitment to this program that is NOT FOR them? Hmm?”
It’s a great excuse. Like I said earlier, they use that phrase to reel kids in and use it again when they speak out against what happens. In regards to mind controlling young, impressionable kids (which we were at the time) it’s actually a brilliant strategy.
Hey, we told you it would be tough: “It’s not for everybody.”
I love how some of HA’s alumni keep coming on here and saying, “There wasn’t any abuse; I came out just fine!” The point still remains that what HA does and teaches IS NOT IN ANY WAY BIBLICAL. This is not how Jesus trained his disciples. This is not how Paul instructed the disciples of the early church. It doesn’t really matter if you had a great experience. You were instructed through a FALSE DOCTRINE…one that causes some to lose their faith entirely, and others to perpetuate the same distorted view of the gospel. If anyone of TM’s supporters would like to debate the issue on these grounds, I’m all ears!
IF anything in this story is credible it is definitely isolated cases. I spent several years working with Teen Mania and was never in any way coerced into staying on for the next year. I participated in ESOAL multiple times and saw God do amazing things in my life and in the life of many others each time. I have personally met with TM leadership several times with concerns and questions and each time I got a very solid Biblical answer. I have friends who graduated and moved away and now work all over the world advancing the kingdom. I also knew dozens of people who never finished their year and never looked down on them or judged them.
Here’s some facts. – The gates are never locked. Anyone can leave at any time. – The overwhelming majority of people who participate in honor academy and other teen mania events walk away knowing God better. – Unfortunately, the girls in the story loose credibility because MSNBC did a one sided story and didn’t present the whole truth. I am not saying they haven’t had a hard life and hard experiences, but MSNBC messed it up.
I am definitely praying for these ladies and anyone else who has felt harmed in any way and above all desire we would come together in one spirit to glorify God in all we do!
I’d prefer to follow Jesus over John Wesley any day. But we can learn a lot from history and other leaders in the faith. I don’t agree with everything John Wesley preached, but its interesting stuff to review because so much of modern American Christianity was influenced by him (both directly and indirectly) and what he taught about living life as a follower of Christ.
Also, a few songs I have found to be a source of comfort and refuge when I find myself processing some painful and hard stuff in my life.
http://youtu.be/lRxQK_dMmmw
Don’t ever forget Jesus is and should always be our refuge. No one person or organization should ever change that or take that away from us. It breaks my heart to see people say they can’t worship anymore because it’s too painful. That is an attack from the enemy to use these past moments to get in the way of us openly going to God and worshiping Him freely. It’s all about grace and freedom in Christ. I pray all can find peace, go to Jesus freely and find rest.
“The gates are never locked. Anyone can leave at any time.”
I would beg to differ. As an intern without a car, I could not go to the doctor when I needed it. When kids say they want to leave, they are told that God’s will is them to stay. Some are even punished with extra work, confrontations, or simply ignored by their core. TM leadership was unresponsive when I was stranded in the DFW airport, until OTHER ministries started calling them about it.
Plus, the documentary was MEANT to be about a pseudo-Christian cult and recovery. Should other documentaries ABOUT abuse strive to show the other side as well–the side of the abusers?
That really stinks about not being able to find a ride. I know that they now offer a regular shuttle to the clinic through out the week free of charge and ca’s and other leadership help find rides to and from the airport. Not sure when you were there but as with anything in life they are changing and I believe it is for the better. 🙂
As far as showing both sides in a case of abuse, that is assuming there is obvious abuse. 5 people claiming abuse out of the thousands of participants does not substantiate the claim. To their credit, they likely had some rough lives before teen mania and attending the honor academy helped them open that up. I pray the recovery process leads them even closer to the lord.
I believe this is a case where both sides should have been heard equally. As I said… it is not normal that people come out feeling this way. It is upsetting that a major network would allow something so one sided to be aired with out proper investigation. There is some great information at http://www.honoracademyalumni.com/ that gives the other side of the story.
There are a lot more than 5 people claiming abuse. We have 67 stories on this website alone. And those are just the people who were able to put their story out there. Many people don’t want to put their stories out because A) they can be easily identified and don’t wish to be attacked the way the brave women in the documentary have been or B) they don’t like thinking about that time and do not want to do so in depth to write up their story. Many people who did not have a good experience at TM would prefer to not think about it ever again–even if it is negatively impacting their lives to this day. It is hard for those who were abused to talk about it. It is hard for them to share it with people who are going to tear them down and be critical.
@Anonymous 2:53 There are more than 5 people claiming abuse. You can read 67 stories on the site, I believe. Additionally, I would ask that people be careful not to marginalize the pain because you think it’s a low number. (How many wounded–and VOCAL–alumni will be enough?
I was there 2000-01 and was accepted to do the ministry team road, but quickly decided against it. At the time, I believed I was doing God’s work there and anytime my Christian mother complained about what went on, I stuck up for TM and told her she didn’t understand how we were changing the world.
For years people asked me about TM and I sang it’s praises. I judged harshly in my heart any ex-interns who lost their faith. It took me time for be to be able to say that what went on there was wrong. Now I understand that the teaching is more of the Old Law plus man-made doctrine and not the message of Jesus.
I was going to mention the official HA website in my previous post. You will notice that they offer only positive views of the experience as well, but I wouldn’t accuse them of bias because the point of the site is to get people to HA. As the point of the documentary was to discuss abuse.
I want to thank you for being a very kind anonymous poster 🙂 even though I disagree, I can have empathy for your point of view.
67 is a lot of stories. For the sake of round numbers lets say it was 100. And there have been over 8000 graduates from the Honor Academy. That would mean that of those 8000, .0125 percent experienced abnormal circumstances they could claim as abuse.
I don’t know exactly what happened with these 5 or with those 100 (or whatever the number is) and they may have gone through some things that negatively affected them. But when people think of cults that are evil and oppressive they are talking about those where the majority are treated badly or ‘brainwashed.’ To say that teen mania is as bad as they make it sound due to the claims of less than 1 percent of the participants is the most ‘radical’ element of this entire story.
Again, my heart goes out to those negatively impacted. I don’t know their whole story and pray the best for them and don’t want to speak negatively about them in an way. It just isn’t right that teen mania be given such negative publicity for such small amount of claims.
Oh, so if only 14 women out of 50,000 that join the military complain of being raped by their superiors, their claims can’t be substantiated because enough people aren’t complaining? I’m stunned by your superior logic.
The video footage of ESOAL shows clear physical, mental and emotional abuse taking place. Whether people want to acknowledge it as such is a different matter.
Both sides of the matter were heard. Ron Luce and his team had lots of time to speak for the program in the documentary, as well as a couple of pro-TM interns.
You shouldn’t make ignorant assumptions about the victims in this documentary. I knew one of the girls personally. She had great parents and a great home life. Before she went to TM, she was one of the most well-adjusted people I knew. Usually good Christian families, not drug abusers, pay to send their kids into this program. Stop being a troll.
Julie, you make such good points! When I chose to share my story in 2010, I gave my real name. People messaged me on FB and asked if it was me, and I couldn’t help but feel ashamed. Being honest about painful, messy histories like these are very hard. Additionally, at the time I believed the HA just needed a little bit of change to catch people like me who “fell through the cracks.” After posting my story I quit visiting this site and believed I could move on with my life. I truly did not want to think about it again.
Last week I was on a friends FB page. I saw someone had posted about the upcoming documentary and came back to this site. I started to consider the symptoms of leaving a cult and saw that I have gone through them all and I prayed about what was going on in my heart. For the first time in years, my heart was unburdened. I believe Christ has delivered me as He already did all of the work at the cross. But I am FINALLY accepting that love, instead of attempting to crucify myself and deserve His Love.
Teen Mania has periodically gotten negative publicity in the entire time I’ve been affiliated with the ministry. How much damage do you think this show is going to do? People are acting like RA has collapsed the ministry in a day because of this documentary. Guess what TM lovers, no one gives a flying f*** about Teen Mania except those of us who have been affiliated with it. How many people who aren’t affiliated with TM in some way do you think watched this documentary? Probably not many. So quit your griping about how horrible it is that TM was portrayed in a negative life. Stop being bitter about the RA website. Move on!
Things are rarely ever straight forward. There were times when I loved being an intern. But there were times when I hatred to too. There where times when I felt safe andcared for and there were times when I felt so invaded for. You can read my story on this website, Stephanie’s story.
But here is one of the very small, very damaging thing I experienced. The day summer missions started DH met with the HA department to give us a pep talk for the no sleep summer coming up. Reminding us that we were going to have to work really hard all summer long. I had just spent the past several weeks paint Quonset domes. It was fun, I loved it. I worked really hard, without the supplies I needed and often with my helpers not being super artisticly inclined, so their work had to be redone. I was not given any type of vehicle to transport my supplies from ops to the domes and around the village so I did a lot oflugging full paint cans around. The last week before summer, I got to work at 7 and didn’t leave until the sun went down, and sometimes came back after dinner to work under the light until 10 or 11. I did not mind this at all. I loved it!
So on the day of the start of summer programs DH asked us how we were feeling. I said tired. He then lectured me, infringement of the whole department about how, I didn’t know tired yet… and how I needed to be stronger And basically made me feel like all of my hard work was not valuable.
It was a little thing… really not a big deal, how would DH know what I had been up to for weeks. But theblanket assumption that it was not enough and that I needed to give more was so painful.
This is not something I dwell on… but I have found that this lack of compassion and caring has put into me a “nothing you do is good enough to be seen or acknowledged” attitude. And I learned that not matter how hard I work, it is never enough.
It’s not the big things, it is the little things the wear you down and break the spirit. The feeling that you are constantly being judged and evaluated. The feeling of not being seen for who you are, andbeing judged on an incomplete picture…
God can become very small at the HA, I saw a girl with her watch on a timer to remind her to acknowledge God’s presence ever half hour. I saw lists of things we had to do to be Right with God. This idea of a quantifiable righteousness and a messureable relationship with thesource of all things is terrifying and leads right into self perpetuating abuse.
Seriously if the HA softened themselves just a bit, rather than always fighting something, measuring something, but instead allowed people to newborn the are open and honest and full of the great range of experience and emotion, would that be so bad.
I’m rambaling…. sorry. I believe in the idea of a place where people can go and learn about their relationship with God. I just feel the the HA represents how DH, RL and HS related to God, and to put their relationship on someone else has been extremely damaging to several amazing people.
Claims of rape in the military are a lot more extreme than claims of mental and emotional abuse in a Christian organization known worldwide to be Godly. It would be interesting to interview locals in east Texas, especially pastors who have interns attend their churches and get their perspective on teen mania. As I said a few times now, these girls very well may have experienced negative things and those should be talked out between them and the people who caused them but there is no basis whatsoever to accuse teen mania as a whole to be this evil manipulative place. The point I want to make is not in any way to dis-credit the girls.
the time that was given to teen mania spokespersons was often accompanied by dark sounding music and usually got cut short just to intro into a point the recovering crew was trying to press. It was interesting that they interviewed one girl about UPG and then went on to have one of the recovering girls tell about world awareness. two completely different events. Can you honestly say that isn’t a twist?
ESOAL has changed over the years. TM themselves have admitted that mistakes have been made in the past and it is now a great event that focuses on positively building up participants. The things in the videos were about 10 years old. Mistakes were made but changes have also been made.
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.”
The reason there are no successful teen mania stories is because there are not any. The people running this program are scum bags out to get rich of jesus and abuse teenagers. The teens that participate in the program are scarred for life and purposely left in the dark, i.e. with any tools to think for themselves. If you read statistics on evangelical xtian cults, you’ll find that very few stick with it more than a few years and those that do stick with it are typically undiagnosed psychotic narrcisists. Most people give up this daily living by the literal word of the bible while sitting in the middle of the secular world. I remind you that interns are not payed, not trained for anything but conversion and miracle narratives, and leave with zero skills except to become missionaries. Do you know how to read your religious book in ancient Greek? Do you know the scholastic history of your religion, the fact that your brand of fundi is actually a product of historical revisionism? No, none of you know this, because you have been fully brainwashed to not ask questions, to not be a human being, and instead, just like real terrorists, you are programmed to do exactly what your handlers tell you to do. Go luck with false enlightenment and non truth. This has nothing to do with religious worship and everything to do with abuse and mind control. If any of you interns were allowed to think for yourselves, you would realize this and very soon start suferring the consequences of your decesions – PTSD – it’s a very sad story indeed! It’s time to rid ourselves of these anti human findi xtian terrorist cults – blot them and their leaders off the face of this earth or send them to Africa where they already enjoy hunting down and killing people for their beleifs.
wow hypermania that is soooo untrue!! there are thousands of successful stories from interns of HA. you all just dont wanna hear then n that documentary didnt want to include them!!
Yeah, there are thousands of successful stories from interns! Like the interns who come on here and call the ladies in the documentary fat, socially inept, ugly, and stupid! What great fruit! So much success!!!
I suppose if you only value perfect people, you have no need for Christ and the cross. I’m not sure why anyone would want to spend their time bashing recovering alumni and (very feebly) sick up for TM if they don’t have an interest in God’s Truth, but to each his own 🙂
I agree that it is uncalled for to call the ladies any of those things. I urge people to check out http://www.honoracademyalumni.com/ and get an idea of the good that really does come from HA. So many lives around the country and around the world changed for the better… Check it out before you say no good comes out of it.
“wow hypermania that is soooo untrue!! there are thousands of successful stories from interns of HA. you all just dont wanna hear then n that documentary didnt want to include them!!”
So, TM interm, how much they paying you to troll here? Oh yeah, nothing, you’re actually paying them thousands of dollars to abuse you. In return you receive no skills and no training. You learn how to mimic miracle and conversion narratives – you learn to become the most hateful person in the world – a religious troll.
Do you know anything about your religious tradition? Are you allowed to study it or ask questions about it? Do you just believe whatever your handlers tell you? Like I wrote, most xtian fundis in cults give up the life of extreme deprivation after a few years.
I hope you receive your autonomy some day, the ability for you to think for yourself. It’s nor really possible to live in a secular world while you play god in human cloths. Very sad, indeed.
As to your scumbag handlers, they’ll get theirs some day. You can’t train and abuse teens and turn them into evangelical terrorists for long until the federal government catches up with you.
That ilk belongs in Africa where they can play holy war in the open. I hear Uganda calling. Oh, but you already now that most of your money, which you gave to your abusers, goes to Uganda to lobby for a theological government, which uses the bible to kill heretics and sinners. I hear that Martin Ssempa is a man after Ron Luce’s own heart.
Good job, Jesus, kill some more, abuse some more, molest some more innocents, while you preach love.
“For the record, it has never been the position of this blog that nothing good happens at Teen Mania – but whatever good happens does not excuse abuse.”
Thank you, RA–that is a very important distinction, and I agree. I also believe that the best and most enduring lies have some truth to them. I have intern friends online who do not believe TM is a cult or that it is abusive (though they admit abuses occur there) and we get along fine.
I also love Jesus and do not blame God for any of these abuses–this is about people abusing people.
I also know more interns from my actual time there who currently believe TM was abusive than who dont. I can think of about 30 off hand who agree but do not (or rarely) visit these forums. We all grieve and heal in different ways.
I love that Ron’s summation of ESOAL is that “you discover things about yourself like ‘Wow, I’m a quitter and I shouldn’t be.'” Wow, sounds like a great time Ron, sounds like Christ is first.
And was he talking about TM when he said “It’s like candy with poison in it, it looks good but it will kill you.”? because he should have been.
Glad to see that he declined one more opportunity to smugly smile at the camera. A former staffer told me recently that Dave really isn’t the source of error at TM, that really most of the nonsense is from Ron- this documentary made that clear.
In a small Eastern European town, a man went through the community slandering the rabbi. One day, feeling suddenly remorseful, he begged the rabbi for forgiveness and offered to undergo any penance to make amends. The rabbi told him to take a feather pillow from his home, cut it open, scatter the feathers to the wind, and then return to see him. The man did as he was told, then came to the rabbi and asked, “Am I now forgiven?”
“Almost,” came the response. “You just have to do one more thing. Go and gather all the feathers.”
“But that’s impossible,” the man protested. “The wind has already scattered them.”
“Precisely,” the rabbi answered. “And although you truly wish to correct the evil you have done, it is as impossible to repair the damage done by your words as it is to recover the feathers.”
(Words that Hurt, Words that Heal, Rabbi Joseph Telushkin)
While Christ’s cross covers all of the repentant heart, there are still consequences to the words we speak. We can’t retrieve them once they’re out there and have been said. As someone working through recovery, I know how deeply even “just words” can haunt the soul, and I am really trying to cultivate some love in the words I choose even when I’m disagreeing.
Ron Luce says he takes teenagers when they’re most vulnerable and shakes the red flag until they run at it, then he pulls away and they run right into Jesus. It sounds to me like they run right into the life of a religious extremists on the outs with most of society and only fit to live the life of missionary. I wonder if that is what the teens have in mind when they’re duped by this ambush.
Anonymous (from earlier): you claim the ESOAL footage in the documentary was about 10 years old. Funny, that’s exactly when my friend (one of the victims in the video) went through the HA program.
So changes have been made, huh? Mistakes have been admitted? Then why hasn’t TM reached out to these women and tried to make restitution or ask for forgiveness? Why are there former alumni on this page making disparaging, UNCHRISTIAN comments about these women?
Anonymous (November 7, 2011 3:16 PM) says: “67 is a lot of stories. For the sake of round numbers lets say it was 100. And there have been over 8000 graduates from the Honor Academy. That would mean that of those 8000, .0125 percent experienced abnormal circumstances they could claim as abuse. “
I have to correct the math error above:
100 out of 8000 is 1.25%
However, it doesn’t appear that two orders of magnitude would make much difference to this individual.
I went on 6 Global Expeditions trips between the ages of 13 and 18 I have wonderful memories of the experience. And even though I am by no means the hard core christian they aim to raise I see no problem in their goals. Some people say they were brainwashing them to not have sex before marriage. I say… I didn’t make it til marriage in fact my beloved husband is the number 5 notch on my belt and I’m not proud of that. But I did manage to hold out until I was 18 and as miserable as highschool was It would have been even worse if I was sleeping around with guys then. It was good to have reason in my life to not give myself away so cheaply and I see no problem with an organization promoting abstinence. Someone has to since the majority of parents and schools don’t anymore.
I work at a psychiatric hospital that has a unit for trauma victims. I would say 90% of our admissions to this unit had a traumatic event over twenty years ago that they are just now acknowledging. Usually there is something that triggers the memories and the individual increasingly becomes more and more depressed to the point of needing hospitalization. The recovering alumni are simply ahead of the other alumni who have yet to realize that they, too, have been traumatized.
i would like to know how if someone leaves a comment in support of HA you can assume they r part of the alumni or an intern. you know HA does have a whole lot of supporters who never went to HA. maybe you should stop assuming every comment is someone who participated directly in HA. you are only saying that to try to make HA interns who support HA look bad or to say the comment is only being made because they r brainwashed. and every time you say someone only says something positive is because they r brainwashed only makes you look ridiculous.
so funny…i would love to know how i am brain washed being i have never went to HA..hahaha what a joke!! oh i know i guess i am brainwashed because i believe in Jesus Christ n the bible, and i live my every day life trying to be as much like Jesus as i can and support a school that is out there trying to teach that to our youth. there should be many more schools out there doing the same. maybe there wouldnt be so much crime n unmarried sex n babies to unwed parents n children who’s parents abandoned them or drug addict’s. i am very sorry anyone was hurt or feel hurt but you all are not speaking truth about a lot of things! and to call HA a cult is ridiculous! and this so called documentary was bias to what you all wanted it to say n could of cared less about the majority of people have had an awesome experience and grew from it. again the brain washing comments just make you look ridiculous!!
anon 12:03 – it’s not surprising that they play the victim. They dismiss their criticism because everyone won’t give their full name and show up to have a discussion. Abusers always want to control the abused and gee they don’t understand that the people they hurt do not want to give their names out of fear and do not want to sit down and have a discussion with their abusers.
This cult makes 18 mil at least per year. They have plenty of money to pay for propaganda. Their motive reminds me a lot of the tactics of Scientology – especially with the free labor they receive from their members.
Here is some slick propaganda they paid for:
http://honoracademyparents.blogspot.com/
Notice the language used in these stories. Do normal people even talk or write this way? Pay attention to the way things are said in the stories on the blog. It sounds a lot like PR to me with many embedded talking points. Note the overuse of 3 pronged talking points as well. It’s very slick.
I have been very open with Heath and shared my full name and year. He has been deleting my posts on the directors blog. I was not rude but I described the tribal lte and how I learned negative self-talk from HA facilitators/drill sargents.
You still don’t get it, do you, HA-supporter Anonymous? You say you believe in the Bible and try to live as Jesus lived. So then it should be obvious that what HA teaches is NOT BIBLICAL.
“Women should wear makeup to please their husbands.” –not biblical
“Lukewarm Christians are those who don’t shout loud enough during worship.” –not biblical
“The way to make a maximum impact for God is to become a martyr.” –not biblical
“Christians must continually prove their devotion to God or they don’t really love Him.” –not biblical
“Christians who graduate from HA are stronger and spiritually superior to other Christians.” –not biblical
“If you had premarital sex, your marriage is doomed to chronic distrust and anxiety.” –not biblical
“Only missionaries are fully committed to building the Kingdom of God.” –not biblical
“Christians who don’t want to challenge themselves by doing a program like HA won’t have any real impact on the world. In fact, we should question if they really are Christians.” –not biblical
As a Christian myself, I’m all for schools that want to teach our nation’s youth how to live as disciples of Christ. But HA, in my opinion, isn’t one of those schools. It is instilling a false, unbiblical doctrine and attitude. Seeing as how the Bible continually warns against the dangers of submitting to false doctrine, I cannot, in good conscience, support such an endeavor, even if some claim to have had a good experience from it. What do you think?
I’m trying very hard to keep this as respectful as possible. I’ve very saddened by some of the stories I’ve read on here. Though I do have a few questions as I’m reading through all the sadness and anger.
First, @ Bene D and all who share Bene D’s feelings about the page he posted… Is anything they said on that page inaccurate? I’m asking that legitimately. I haven’t been to TMM in a long time and haven’t been involved in any of this, so I would really like to get a more clear response about what is inaccurate about the following:
1. Many stories and claims publicized by the group are done so in anonymity, which makes it challenging to verify facts or engage in a resolution focused conversation.
2. Comments and statements made and allowed by this group have at many times been accusatory, sometimes mean-spirited, in nature and do not communicate a desire to “seek to understand” or to allow for rebuttal or disproof of information. Attempts to correspond in a polite and respectful manner have often lead to fruitless arguing on both sides.
3. One of the lead members of this group has communicated their desire is to bring down the Honor Academy and that nothing less will be satisfactory.
4. A member of this group is a self proclaimed atheist, which will make it challenging, possibly impossible, to fully agree on the standards and accountability required by Teen Mania, since the mission is unquestionably based on a statement of faith that is Christian.
Please let me know what in there is a lie. I would genuinely like to know. However, if that last point in particular is true, that would seem to be a particularly good point. One that would make reconciliation very difficult.
Speaking of reconciliation, I can’t help but thinking about Romans 12:18 (Christian or not it’s wise advice). “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.”
If TMM and HA aren’t doing this…shame on them.
With that said, my final thought is…are there any RAs who want to genuinely make peace with TMM & HA? Do you want to make things right? Have you tried? If so what have you done?
Has TMM and HA attempted to make peace with any of you? If so what did they do? If not, what will it take on TMM’s part to make peace and make things right?
Or is point 3 true…you just want to see them dead and buried…peace isn’t a goal or an option.
Respectfully wanting to know more. Please don’t yell at me. I just want to know more.
Hi Daniel – The answers to all your questions can be found in today’s post as well as this comprehensive look at my interaction with TM leadershiop: http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2010/11/teen-mania-and-recovering-alumni.html
@That redheaded one, What school do you go to? You painting EVERYONE that “defends” TM as weak and susceptable to mind control is way over gernarlizing, lacking integrity and in your words lacking dignity.
I read over it…very interesting. I made a comment/question on that post too. However, that post still didn’t answer my initial inquiry. What about their 4 point response is not accurate? I’m trying to learn as much as I can and make up my own mind…sorry about all the questions.
I just read through a few of the posts I missed. I have to say April, with all do respect, I don’t recall learning any of that at TMM & HA when I was there. When I left I admittedly had a bit of a chip on my shoulder but the teachings you posted were never a part of my internship. Some of them the premise is almost right but the conclusions are very far from what I remember learning. What year were you there? I can imagine having different leaders over you can have a very strong impact and change things a lot.
This is consistent with what DH taught when I knew him, which happens to be before he joined TM. This doctrine is not Biblical, and I can attest to have experienced the destruction that is ultimately brought about by this false teaching in my own life.
Dan, I absolutely came away from our year there with some of those teachings. The women ones I think were from women-only stuff… Must wear makeup? Check. Premarital sex means your marriage is doomed? Check. Quite frankly, I think there was WAY too much emphasis (our year at least, I can’t speak for any other year) put on women to look nice, on our appearance. I was actually told that I needed to start wearing makeup and spending time doing my hair because I needed to be doing my best to look good for God or something like that. I was made to feel like if I didn’t participate in Women At The Well, I was setting myself up for failure (I doubt that was the intention of the people who pressured me but still). I was confronted for giving the impression that I had a sunflower for a guy friend because I hung out with him a lot. I was horrified and refused to even LOOK his direction, and would hardly speak to any guys, for a couple of weeks. Looking back, there was definitely stuff that should have raised my eyebrows, but a lot of the woman-specific stuff was in Synergy, Advisor Meetings, etc., so y’all wouldn’t have necessarily been around for it or known about it.
I definitely did not come away with nearly the wounds that a lot of people did. I was pretty lucky in that the hurts I experienced werent as life altering as some of the stuff other RA’s have dealt with, but it still hurt none the less and still does. Most of my stuff wasn’t so much staff doing specific things as the result of the culture.
@ IWantToBeAClone Having a spirit of repentance is a very biblical thing. I didn’t see him say we are earning our way to heaven. That’s not what he said. He’s referring to what Dietrich Bonhoeffer calls “cheap grace” vs “costly grace.” In case you don’t know, Bonhoeffer was a Lutheran minister in Germany during WWII who opposed Nazism…he died in a concentration camp. Read his book “The Cost of Discipleship” to get a better grasp on what “cheap grace” is all about. And then what “costly grace looks like. American Christianity is riddled with so much “cheap grace.” It’s very sad. Doesn’t mean they aren’t going to heaven. That’s not our call. It does mean they are missing the point of the grace that’s been extended to them by God…and that’s a sad thing indeed.
@Daniel I don’t take issue with being sensitive to the Holy Spirit and being willing to repent. The problem I have with the quote below is that DH claims forgiveness is dependent on our actions. Again, this false claim is consistent with the teaching I have heard from DH repeatedly.
“Remember it is when you are repentant and living whole heartedly, this is when you are forgiven your sins by God, so remain whole hearted and broken before Him.”
Ester, I was an intern January 2001 – 2002 and can agree with your statements. We had the same teachings as far as the “women’s ministry” is concerned.
I think it’s interesting that many of the female alumni that I know claim to have had a dramatically different experience at the HA than the men during the same intern year.
We (women) were treated differently. If you stepped outside of the perfect female mold, you were looked down on and asked to change. If you received too much attention from a guy or a group of guys, you were to blame for that. You were also accountable for the “unclean” thoughts of the guys on campus, usually because of your actions or your choice of clothing or your interactions with the other women on campus, but sometimes simply because you were pretty. Women were often treated like children at the HA.
We are not children and we are not less than men. It took me a long time to get past those feelings of inferiority after leaving Garden Valley, feelings that were a direct result of my time as an intern and Staff Associate.
Exactly Layne. I expressed a lot of intimate details of being neglected, including not being permitted to use the facilities during Gauntlet when I had my period and the humiliating consequences.
Heath apologized that my experience made me FEEL like I was not valuable and likened it to when he was called a liar at the end of his intern year or was nearly BV’d on a GE trip.
What? A year of abuse, neglect and both physical and emotional hazing DO NOT exactly compare….
4. A member of this group is a self proclaimed atheist, which will make it challenging, possibly impossible, to fully agree on the standards and accountability required by Teen Mania, since the mission is unquestionably based on a statement of faith that is Christian.
-LOL In the REAL WORLD adults can and often do have productive dialogs with people that disagree with them or hold completely different belief systems (yes, even with atheists). Cult leaders hate talking to outsiders because their brainwashing techniques don’t work on the un-initiated. I find it funny that they claim because ONE person in the group claims not to believe in God, they absolutely can’t give the entire group any legitimacy (as if believing in God confers legitimacy haha). They must serve a cowardly and weak God if he cannot tolerate even the slightest criticism.
I don’t think it is wise to allow TM to frame the debate. Nobody needs to answer to the talking points on their web page. This seems to be an attempt for the abusers to abuse more. For people suffering PTSD, it’s a good idea to stay at a non contact status with your abusers.
Why is there a dialogue above concerning whether TM practices good or bad christianity? It’s as if the bible said being hit in the head with a baseball bat was being a good christian, so now just stand there and be hit in the head. The truth of the matter is, whether they practice good or bad theology, they abuse these teenagers. They use religion to accomplish this control and abuse.
I think the religion angle needs to be minimized in this story, because the real story is about cult abuse and recovery.
I highly recommend that everybody in this thread researches the entire 2,000 years of christianity, its different theological traditions, and the biblical manuscript tradition. Since the cult would not allow anybody to understand its historical context outside of their confines, you owe it to yourself to learn about the religion in its entire historicity.
For me the most important topic to research is the biblical tradition – the 10,000s of different manuscripts and translations. I recommend Bart Erhman for beginners, you can find his lectures on youtube.
If you are recovering from cult abuse, you deserve, if you’re ready, to read the entire history and get all the facts.
I also recommend for recovery a look into the cult of scientology and how they keep their worshipers in check. google project clam bake.
If this debate continues as to whether one christian is better than the next or one theology is right while the other is wrong, I believe those trying to overcome the abuse, will only be exposed to it more.
Yes, it is true. THERE IS AN ATHEIST AMONG US! Haha!. But in all seriousness, this person was at one time a very devout christian and model intern and was so disheartened by the time with TM that she decided to leave the church and God altogether. I can say with certainty that she is not asking for unreasonable measures to be put in place to protect interns.
Furthermore, being an atheist should never disqualify a person from engaging in conversation with believers, even if they have opposing viewpoints. TM used the fact that there is ONE known atheist among us (who became so as a direct result of her time with TM) and instead of extending the all-inclusive love of God to her, they shut her out, belittled, ostracized, exiled and publicly disavowed her. Where is God in that? So, that’s my take on it. They should NEVER have put that in there and it only goes to prove how far removed the leadership is from it’s First Love. It actually sickens me.
Layne, exactly. You were there right before we were. In fact, I think you may have been on the MT while we were there? Or am I getting my GI’s confused?
I still to this day struggle with feeling guilty if I want to be friends with a guy, especially if he happens to be even remotely good looking. I had NEVER had that problem before. I grew up with a bunch of guys and was always just comfortable around them. But suddenly, it’s like there’s this magic number on how much time you can spend with a guy before it becomes a sign that you have romantic feelings. And yet to some extent, I felt like that was only applied to those interns who weren’t the super popular interns, which usually coincided with being a really good looking guy or girl. I also feel like it was applied one-sidedly. In my case, why was I the only one confronted (I am pretty stinking sure the guy wasn’t confronted but not going into the reasons why publicly)? I didn’t force the guy to spend time hanging out with me, I didn’t force him to be friends, why was I the one who “had a sunflower” and yet he was okay because he was “just friends”? Why was it always only the girls fault when there was a MUTUAL friendship?
As far as the appearance thing goes, I had short-ish hair. I liked to wear a bandana to keep it back because it drove me absolutely nuts to have it in my face while I was on the phones. I was told that I needed to stop wearing my bandana and start spending time doing my hair. This went along with being told that I needed to wear makeup. All because I needed to “do my best to look my best for God”.These days, I don’t usually do my hair or my makeup and many days I wear sweats, yoga pants, workout shorts, a tank top, a t-shirt, something of that sort. I’m positive that God doesn’t love me any less and that he’s not disappointed in me based on the fact that I don’t spend 30 minutes on my hair and makeup before I get my nose used as a chew toy for a 7 month old or have a 2 year old use me for a horsey, and I’m positive that he wouldn’t have loved me any less, nor would my performance as a GE caller have suffered, from me continuing to wear my bandana. And if anyone stumbled over my hair and makeup, that sounds like a problem with them, not me.
Dan, it’s ok. It certainly wasn’t any of the guy interns faults.
If I’m totally honest with myself, I never really was sure where I fit in. I felt like an oddball. I’m not sure I’ve ever really admitted that before.
Esther, I wish I could give you a hug. You were not the only intern with these feelings, as Layne as also said. Layne was actually one of the people who helped get me through that year and for a long time was the only person I felt I could talk to–yet I was so confused and manipulated that these issues were NOT things I discussed. I really regret that TM made countless other interns feel that we could not be HONEST at the HONOR Academy.
I agree Esther. I think that’s a problem with many, many Christian churches, and that we would have fewer “scandals” if we took transparency and grace seriously. TM has been allowed get into this perfection overdrive in a more hard-core way through the HA.
I watched the show. The part where Ringo said she only felt it was okay to enjoy her life as of recently made me LOL, literally. What a waste of ten years, Ringo!
Also, Soul Murder? OH EM GEE.
Your stories are valid, but you refuse to be healed. You continue to open up wounds and let them fester. This website offers no healing, only recurring reminders of the pain. There is a continuum of validation and plain old bitching. How much validation do you need?
You keep going back and asking for more, more validation, more recognition, more sob stories. When will it stop? When will your website actually offer help?
If it’s true that your journalists approach TM under false pretenses, then your side of the story is totally invalidated.
I 100% agree with the previous comment about refusing to be healed. What a festering pool of victim-minded people! Grow up and move on with your lives! An organization does not have the power to steal your identity if you are planted in Christ. Turn your brains back on and look toward your futures. Nothing seems to be getting accomplished here except whining.
you said before that dave never actually said anything negative towards or about you, but you assumed he thought of you as the black sheep, & that he looked down on you. holding all that unforgiveness (about something that wasn’t even actually said) is clearly eating you up inside. just give it to God instead of mulling over it all constantly..
So do I have anybody out there that will take me up on this? What is Gods solution? How would love respond to both sides of the picture? What is Gods solution? How many of you truly are going to God with your heart wounds? What is Gods solution? This is becoming a bloody mess with no solution other then to rag on your experience! Do you people come against Porn and Masturbation and Adultery and Addiction and The Child sex traffic as much as you pour out your time and energies on this website? I would hope so because there is a lot of energy being spent on words filled with resentment not forgiveness. God Help Us! God save us from ourselves!
Wendy… As a Clinical counselor who has worked with many young people actually diagnosed with PTSD, I am disgusted by your comments. I am deeply saddened by you and your husband’s so called counseling session that I witnessed on the MSNBC special. In school the first thing they teach you is to not ask LEADING questions. You never took the time to actually discover what if any other issues these young people are or have faced other than TM. You are witnessing a symptom not the root cause! You and your husband need to ask yourself “are we a solution or problem”? It is very clear that these young people need healing. They need to move on and live the lives that GOD has for them. Are they hurting yes, did they deserve it NO. But the question is how do we move on from here? Not trying to stir them up with salacious talk. The same goes for you Mica! I guess it’s true what they say, hurting people only hurt people, because they don’t know any better
226 comments:
Im just curious why there are only ladies on the show accusing Teen Mania of being a cult. Where are the guys? Not to be mean but these seem like somewhat socially inept ladies who maybe weren’t right for a program like this to begin with? Where are the interviews with the people who have gone through the program who are well adjusted individuals with families, businesses, etc?
Socially inept? Judgmental much are we Jay?
Jay, that’s cause I wasn’t asked to do it!!
And me! I was not asked. I would have been right there.
Josh why weren’t yo asked?
We would liked to have included guys but it didn’t work out.
Do you know any of the women, Jay? Because I know for sure at least one is married and owns her own business.
I’m just going by what the show displayed. I don’t mean to be rude but with the exception of Mica they seemed to be somewhat socially inept. Sorry I know that sounds rude but those are some pretty harsh accusations the show is placing on them. The show said 8,000+ have gone through the Honor Academy. I have a hard time making a leap from a small percentage being disgruntled to calling it a cult. Not to diminish at all the obvious trauma these girls have gone through.
I used to attend the Acquire The Fire events and looking back I can see how much they used these kids in such an important time in their life. As an atheist I have stepped away from not only these events but the religion as well. Whether you believe or not this should not be tolerated. No person should go through this and I am glad that you guys stood up and got the word out. I never attended the Honor Academy so I didn’t experience the things you guys did. However, I can say a lot of the mental abuse is not relegated to these organizations. I experienced it a lot in my own church and with a lot of the people I grew up with. Not until I accepted my doubts did I feel like I could be the person I really was. We need to stop the abuse not only at these events and the academy but in churches as well.
At some point in life we need to realize that there are people who are different or do not believe the same way we do. Its the root of bullying and mental abuse. It needs to stop.
Jay – I spent a lot of time with these girls and I’m not seeing what you are seeing. They were filmed baring their souls – its bound to be a bit awkward…Plus, we all freely admit that TM harmed our social skills. It was even mentioned in the show!
> “I have a hard time making a leap from a small percentage being disgruntled to calling it a cult.”
You know…because it can only be a cult if a lot of people say so…
AS A ALUMNI IM SADDENED BY WHAT I SAW TONIGHT….THE HA IS NOT A CULT OR TRYING TO
BRAIN WASH YOU…IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST CHALLENGING BUT BEST YEARS OF
MY LIFE….I MADE LIFE LONG FRIENDS AND LEARNED LEARDERSHIP QUALITIES THAT HELP ME TODAY….JUST SAD TO SEE THINGS TWISTED BY THE MEDIA
AND THESE WOMEN….I ENCOURAGE YOU TO SEARCH YOUR HEART INSTEAD OF ATTACKING A MINISTRY….
Dominick Draper (HA CLASS OF 07)
cult [kuhlt]
Origin
cult [kuhlt] Show IPA
noun
1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
@Maurice – Its not for me to judge where one’s relationship with God is. Those who believe in the Great Commission can’t deny that Teen Mania has had success in helping to make disciples as it says in the Bible. Obviously those who don’t agree with the Bible and Christianity we won’t be able to come to any sort of agreement on this. A few people can choose to call the world flat. That doesn’t mean its flat. I know thats a really simplistic comparison.
@Justin – Do you post that definition to say that all religions all cults?
Jay…I don’t comment here often, but I feel somewhat compelled to respond to your “socially inept” comment.
I appreciate that those young women appeared on national television, and by doing so may have opened themselves up to some potentially insulting commentary. But damn, man. Ouch.
Anyway, let’s say for the sake of argument that they are “socially inept”. A harsh observation that I disagree with, but let’s say you’re right.
Are we in the business of marginalizing socially inept or socially awkward people? As believers, should we really be building programs that are built only for those among us who fit our own standards for social interaction? If we have programs that glorify people who are “socially gifted”, while harming the “socially inept”, how are we to welcome all to Jesus, with open arms?
Wouldn’t the logical conclusion be that Christ is really only interested in socially gifted individuals? The normal ones? The ones like me?
Socially inept. What a sickening thing to read.
I post it to show the commonly held definition of a cult is incorrect. For many a cult has to abuse, hurt and cause widespread damage. That is simply not true.
Yes, religions are cults by definition. Churches take the christian belief and distort it to such a point that it does cause abuse, hatred and widespread damage to society.
But I didn’t come here to attack religion. I came here to speak out about the abuse I have seen with my own eyes.
Jay… What you refer to as socially inept, I think you are actually seeing hurt and post-abuse trauma. I know in my case, anyone would probably call me socially inept or awkward… But I am working through many issues after TM… I was radically transformed (not for the better).
Also, if TM gets credit for leading so many people to Christ, does that mean they also take credit for turning souls AWAY?
@Dan I couldn’t agree more. Even as a non believer.
@Dan – I realize it was a harsh thing to say. And I didn’t say that to marginalize them as people. You extrapolated a lot from what I said so let me explain a little better what I meant. All I was trying to say was that they didn’t seem like a good fit for such an intense program. I don’t think that everyone is made to be exposed to such harsh conditions like what were shown in ESOAL. I’m sure for some people who are more apt to learn that way probably gained something from it. Everyone is not built to be a type A leader. It seems like this program is more designed for people who lean toward that personality type. So I apologize because what I meant to say is obviously not how you took it.
With all that said, would I let my kids do it? I can’t imagine I would but my oldest is barely 6 🙂
To be a type A leader you have to break people down? That is simply not true. At least not in the real world.
@shannikitty It definitely seems like Teen Mania is at fault for not doing a better job with people like those in the show. You are absolutely right, they should and will be held accountable for those who they are responsible for harming – mentally and physically. It is obvious they have done a bad job in this area. But from doing a bad job of understanding who the people in your care are to calling them a cult is a huge leap. This has major ramifications for them that personally I think are unwarranted.
@Justin – That’s not what I said. Lets not put words in each others mouths.
Socially inept…is that the way you think God sees his kids? As deficient? Lacking? Maybe even embarrassing?
I wonder how God sees you…his treasured child. More importantly, I wonder how you see yourself in order to make and defend such a cruel and inaccurate assessment.
You know one of the issues with the abuses at TM is the elitism. Based on the lessons of self-harm they end up teaching, I dont see how it is for any of God’s children.
Just an fyi, Jesus never put His disciples through bootcamp. And He used murders and prostitutes for the Kingdom. Who is TM to create a whole new kind of Christian and ridicule those who dont make their cut?
@Jay “Everyone is not built to be a type A leader. It seems like this program is more designed for people who lean toward that personality type”
This is what you said. This program is geared towards those that are type a leaders. Which you also imply these girls are not. You also say they may not be suited for such an intense program. What is it you are really trying to say?
My intent was not to be cruel. Everyone take a few deep breaths. It was a simple observation based on what I saw on the show. I’m not taking the bait into getting into an argument with anyone.
@jay I call it a cult because of the time I spent there. I can safely say I was brainwashed by their classic mind control techniques. But it took me about a decade to get to the point of calling it a cult. There have been many discussions here about the qualities which make it a cult but you may certainly disagree.
@shannlkitty: “Just an fyi, Jesus never put His disciples through bootcamp.” There are many examples of Jesus putting the disciples through “tests” both physically and spiritually. Thats not an accurate comparison.
@Justin: I am not trying to say anything. I am saying what I mean. It is not a bad thing to create a program geared toward leadership. I am not claiming that what Teen Mania has created is a perfect example. Its very obvious its not. Everyone has a different calling. Those who go to the Honor Academy aren’t any better than those who do not. If someone started the program and couldn’t finish, that doesn’t make them any less of a Christian than those who complete it. I will agree that this is an area that, up to this point, Teen Mania has failed.
@ Jay
I Posted in the previous thread about my concern why there were no male alumni in the show.
Regardless, I am glad that this was done. TM has not responded to our individual and group efforts to confront and share our concerns; thus the word of what happens and happened there will continue to be brought more and more into the public arena. Hopefully and prayerfully we will see eventual change in the organization that we love.
~ Blue Lantern
@shannlkitty: I have been to many Acquire the Fires. I know many people who have gone to the Honor Academy recently and left without the real hurt and pain that you have experienced. Please understand I say that not discounting or disqualifying the real hurt and pain you experienced. I myself was in the program the first year they moved to Garden Valley in 1996. That was well before they began doing ESOAL and I will admit that the program is very different from when I was there. I am very sorry that your time there ended up being negative.
By the definitions in the show tonight every single religion could be quantified as a cult.
All of this is stolen, but it shows how I feel better than my words in other words, this is total plagiarism :
The phrase “get over it and move on” is a term that was authored and abused by authoritarian spiritual abusers to get their followers to turn their brains off so that they won’t think for themselves.
I have the an aversion to being told things like “get over it” I find instructions and directives like that demeaning, as though these people are inferring that I am incompetent, and that I have made the wrong choice where my own feelings are concerned. Those statements often come in larger sentences such as “Oh for goodness sake, get over it already” and there is always an impatient voice infliction attached to them. Tone of voice is used to “remind me” that I must be too stupid to understand “HOW to deal with it” thereby putting the focus back on me, reminding me that I am incompetent, in order to make me stop talking about whatever it was that I was trying to deal with in the first place.
Being told to “just get over it” is devaluing. It implies that I am making a mistake in processing an event. It indicates that something is wrong with ME because I am in still confused about something that has not been resolved. The statement is emotionally abusive
Furthermore, people who say stuff like this don’t have any solutions; they don’t ever offer suggestions on HOW to get over it or deal with it, because they don’t know how either. They only offer devaluing and thoughtless instructions that remind me of my abuse and how I was never right, never good enough and never entitled to my feelings or to my pain. I was not entitled to realize that I had been wronged. I was always the one who was wrong no matter what the situation was
@Jay I was not trying to start an argument and I am sorry if I got to emotional. Its a subject that really does hit home. While I have not experienced the honor academy I have suffered through many types of mental abuses caused by the church.
I don’t agree with their way of teaching leadership and it has nothing to do with the differing beliefs. Its a way to scare people into a certain path and its not effective. It breeds an elitist attitude and I think this is the reason many churches fail at bringing new members.
I know I am likely the only non believer in this discussion and I did not come here to tear down the religion. I just wanted to share my experiences and commend those that got the word out. Its something that needs to be stopped and not only in religion. This elitist attitude is the cause of many issues in this world.
@justin it is true that the people who “do well” at TM tends to be type A or a1 least very outgoing people. Isn’t that sad? My personality was beat up, chewed up there (I’m an introvert). Their lessons made me believe I was inherently wrong. They were not preaching the love of Jesus with these methods.
We may not agree on theology but I think you have made some very good points. I can imagine this reinforces your views of Christianity, which is one of the things that makes me so sad about the HA.
@Jay My main reason for providing the dictionary definition of the word ‘cult’ is to show that for many people they hold the bar way too high. For many people to take these abuses seriously it has to be called a cult but when the bar it set too high it allows way too many abuses to be allowed through unpunished.
Its much like the definition of the word genocide. There have been many cases around the world that the word genocide was not applied and because it wasn’t these abuses were not taken seriously. I am not saying these are on the same level but the same thing applies.
Lets make our decisions based on the abuse reported rather than whether it fits the criteria of a single word.
@Justin – I don’t disagree with anything you said there. When leadership in the church is abused it can be a very damaging force that can ruin lives. I have definitely seen it first hand. I have worked full time in a church since 2001, not as a Pastor but as a creative professional. My parents have Pastored our church since they began it in 1981. I would describe our church as a medium sized church (600 adults). I have seen first hand how true Christ-like leadership can impact lives for the better.
There are Christians and Churches that give us as a whole a bad name. There are good churches and good christians out there. It’s not an oxymoron 🙂
@shannikitty It really does. My reasons accepting my no belief had more to do with examining the evidence on a personal level but this attitude that is sold disgusts me. Its a reason I have never associated myself with any church I have ever gone to.
I read a book by Hemant Mehta called ‘How I Sold My Soul On Ebay’ and it discussed how he sold the right to send him to a church of the winners choice. He is an atheist who runs a blog called the Friendly Atheist. He did not go in and attack the beliefs but told these churches what they were doing wrong when it comes to bringing in new believers. This is the reason you don’t have non believers, or doubters, lining up at your door. It saddens me because I have met some very compassionate christians (or people of other faiths) but your image is already damaged by the outspoken minority.
You have a good head on your shoulders. This world needs more people who understand what is really going on.
If anybody would like to email me please feel free to do so. I’m not all that scary lol
justin . olsen 116 at gmail com without the spaces. Don’t want any spam.
@Jay I agree. But you don’t see those good churches because those that abuse the system are way too loud. It doesn’t only apply to religion either. Or one side of the argument. There are just more of you. I’ve seen many atheists that I don’t want to associate myself with the same way I don’t want to associate myself with many of these christians who ruin it for the rest of them.
Ron Luce said it best THE HONOR ACADEMY IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. and might I add…Nor is the military, private school, public school or shopping at walmart! Basically if you don’t want to follow the rules that have been set in place then pack your bags and take your tail back to where you came from!
As a supporter of this blog, and someone who was very excited that it/these issues got some national media attention, I actually have a criticism of the show! 🙂
Seriously though, I do. In the interest of changing the subject, which I’m happy didn’t turn into a flame war, here is something I didn’t like:
It felt like the script and final cut made it appear as though the Honor Academy is predominately made up of events like ESOAL. I am one of ESOAL’s and the Honor Academy’s biggest critics, but were I an outside observer, who knew nothing about the HA, I might be left with the impression that interns spend the majority of their year rolling through mud in military helmets.
Towards the end, I was very happy with the direction it took, dealing more with the personal recovery stories of the brave young women involved in this documentary. However, on the hole, I felt that it was a bit skewed towards highlighting some of the more “salacious” parts of the program.
Tee hee…on the hole.
@Anonymous 11:27
Ron Luce is peddling HIS version of Jesus. And fyi people are on this site due to being abused, lied to, and sometimes lied about–please read the true stories section of this site because it’s actually not about the rules. It is the heart, well lack of heart behind this man-made salvation. TM runs the HA thick with what I can only assume was inspired by Jewish laws/the OT covenant. They do not operate under the law of Grace. Having been in TM as well as a legalistic Torah movement, I can safely say the two have more in common with each other than Jesus and the cross.
Good night all and God bless.
Dan – That was definitely one of my main concerns prior to seeing the show – I was really hoping they would focus on the program as a whole and not just ESOAL. I think its impossible to cover everything in 42 minutes, but I’m so glad they discussed the working environment..
Touching on Lifton’s criteria was good too, but it really didn’t get into the meat of it. I remember we spent a good couple hours going through those criteria and I was really surprised how many examples we could come up with for each one of them. That was quite eye opening.
The other thing that stood out to me as lacking – and again, I think it was only b/c of time constraints – is that you heard from us how it affected us – but not sure that non-participants would really understand WHY we felt that way. We talked about being anxious, isolated, etc – but weren’t able to delve into the meat of WHY and I think thats an important aspect.
Overall though, I am pleased with the project and I think it was extermely fair. Current interns and leadership got a lot of screen time.
I’m an atheist who attending several ATF events and went on a GE mission trip as a teenager…I have several friends who are alums and I spent time volunteering at Teen Mania, so that’s my background/connection. And I really only have one thing to say…Dave Hasz is /so clearly/ a high-functioning sociopath. I never really met him because he does HA and I was never an intern, but from the documentary, even from just his brief appearance, it’s just painfully, achingly obvious.
p.s. I knew something was very, very strange when I visited my brother at HA as a volunteer. The day I got there I ran up to him and hugged him and he swung me around, and for the rest of the day, literally for hours, people were approaching him and asking who I was in a very, very accusatory tone. When he told them I was his sister, their response? “Good, I didn’t want to have to report you.” And some of you kooks say this ISN’T a cult. Ha.
God is love ,God is good . We as Christians should take a big responsibility on what we say and how we treat other people. Jesus called us not to judge but to love one another one matter what. God will help and protect all of us on earth. All we have to do is ask. I fill for the woman on this show and saddened that this has happened to them . I an even more saddened that Christians are portrayed as cult followers and that they hate. I am not a hateful follower of a cult. God gives us all a chance. We as Christians should too. Jesus did and love everyone the same way. I pray these women on the show and all the others out there find healing and overcome. As well as to forgive so it can bring them a peace with in themselves.
I just wanted to comment on a statement that was posted earlier about Teen Mania only being for outgoing, Type A leaders. Before attending the HA, I had been categorized as such. I find it so ironic that you think that those are the people who do well in such a situation. I remember thinking while I was there that the people who seemed the most happy and fulfilled in their roles as TM interns were those who didn’t originally have the tendency to lead or to have strong opinions of their own going in. I was very frustrated there because I felt that I was being asked to bend into the mold that they had dubbed as “leadership”, but yet not to be too attached to my own thoughts. It was a contradiction in terms, that the best “leaders” were perfectly unquestioning followers. From where I stand now, I can see why they would want this, but while I was there I was routinely frustrated that it seemed like those who were able to parrot and pass on what staff said (and not the ones who truly were thinking critically)were the ones who seemed to rise on the intern heirarchy of leadership.
I am a former intern I was there for 2 years and I must say it was the best 2 years of my life! Was it challenging? Yes! But I would not be who I am today had I not gone to the Honor Academy! I was able to hear the Lord clearer and learn what I believed and why I believed it! I also participated in ESOAL and completed 36 hours and when I rang out did not feel condemned! After I rang out my major told me who knew I gave it my all and he was proud of me! I think msnbc should have spoken to alumni with good experiences instead of bias remarks! While I was at Teen Mania I worked for Ron directly and must say he is an awesome man of God! I also don’t understand why you are speaking out against other men and women of God who claim to be Christians! The bible speaks directly to that as well! But overall I pray God’s blessing on you all!
Lyndsey Poteete August ’09
Jay, do you have any clue how judgmental you sound? Maybe you and the other pro Mania alumni need to be praying for these young women rather than condemning them and saying hurtful things.
I think the saddest thing about comments like “get over it and move on,” or “HA does such great work in the world” is the assumption that some people are expendable. It’s apparently ok if a few end up damaged, angry, or leave the faith entirely because so many are brought into the faith or have their faith strengthened. That’s pretty much the opposite of the Parable of the Good Shepherd. That one little sheep turned out to be important. Not because it was a particularly good sheep–heck, it ran off and got lost! Not because it was a leader of sheep. But simply because it was the Shepherd’s sheep, and it got lost.
It’s never ok to sacrifice someone because good came out of it. That’s a very nasty road to walk down.
Many thanks to the ladies who shared their stories on the program tonight. That can’t have been easy.
Lyndsey ’09- you might have missed it, but the documentary included interviews from at least three current interns, all with positive experiences and stories surrounding their TM life.
How many here are teen mania trolls working late at the call center? Enjoy your fail christian slaves!
this isn’t about right and wrong ways to worship. it’s about irresponsible adults abusing teens. these east texas fundi xtian cults have got to go. they are the xtian taliban, terrorists!
Wendy, I don’t know if you meant to say “pro-Mania alumni” but I think it works!
To all these teen mania trolls claiming that everything is well, I hope you realize that PTSD doesn’t set in for a few years. You too may be a little socially inept when it kicks in. Teen mania is an abusive and inhumane cult. It’s run by adults who corrupt the children.
To all you wanna be christian trollolololols staying up late at the teen mania call center, you are part of the problem, you live in false consciousness, false enlightenment, a brainwashing cult, you will lose this game, you are duped. Shed your entitlement, you judgment, your pagan ways, you are of this world and 100% in denial of truth. You will get what you deserve for being the scum of society. Adults corrupting children, teenagers living in falsehood, you will feel so stupid later for how you behave today.
Its not the current intern’s fault if they are brainwashed, so lets go easy on them. They are victims. The real fault lies with the perpetrators…I’d rather not bash the victims who will hopefully one day make a full recovery.
Here, here, I say that Ron Luce needs to be investigated by the feds, especially by the IRS and FBI, for running a child slave camp and for abusing children at the tune of 18 million a year. It shouldn’t stop there, all these fundi extremists groups in east Texas, even YWAM and its associates, ought to be investigated, imprisoned, and exposed as complete frauds. It breaks my heart that so many have suffered abuse at their hands. Their self righteous entitlement makes me want to vomit. Hurting children in the name of Jesus, you ought to be ashamed. These people are psychopaths!
I am deeply saddened by this video and this site. I am an Alumni, and I am an active christian and a Youth Pastor. I have embraced some of TM teachings and turned away from some, just as we all do with our parents, schools, and churches. The fact of the matter is, the teachings were straight out of the Bible, ESOAL was optional, and the strict rules were always rolled out as something you do for the year, not life. I’m sorry, I know you’ve all got told that you were a victim of a cult, but by the very definition of a cult (posted by someone earlier) any Ministry or Church will fall into that category. You were right, we were kids. and I met so many interns who were not mature enough to follow any rule or authority, not even the small stuff. As some of you stated, you didn’t like it and left, good! you shouldn’t stay somewhere you feel isn’t safe. but you are a minority, most of the Alumni leave and live very successful, God centered lives and can’t comprehend the victim mentality you claim. is it cause we are all brainwashed? no. like I said, I don’t hold to some of the things I was taught at the HA. but if this were a cult, and if we were brainwashed, then why is it that we all left with different beliefs, different convictions, and different goals in life? is it that we were brainwashed to do so? or more likely, that they did what they said, lead us to finding our vision, grow our walk, and mature our faith. TM isn’t flawless, nothing man does is, but an evil cult it is not. I respect your opinion, but stop going around tarnishing a Godly organisations name. when you do that, all you accomplish is tarnishing what they teach (the Bible) and the thousands of Alumni who are in the world actually doing something for Christ. If you want your story out, have some alumni talk with you, on camera, debate, converse, show both sides. don’t just show clips of ESOAL and snippets of Ron or Dave speaking making it seem like what you’re claiming is truth. I’m sorry, but if you want to reveal the “truth” don’t cut and past thing with little to no context. I, as well as many other alumni would love to talk to you and share our experience, but you and MSNBC don’t want that. to close, I’m truly sorry you were hurt, but that doesn’t give you the right to hurt others, and I feel deeply offended by how you went about this.
“I feel deeply offended by how you went about this.”
don’t be so bitter!
how is that comment bitter? I went out of my way to say how sorry I am for the hurt those girls feel. but I’m not allowed to be offended about a slanted documentary? seems like a double standard.
It is truly sad how the documentary and these comments are so one sided. I heard about the video and sought out a way to start a conversation about this topic. I want my side heard, but also want to have a real conversation with those who feel like the HA was a cult. but most of what I’ve seen is one sided comments, overly defensive comments, and comments with people who have NEVER even been interns! is it too much to ask to have a mature, Godly conversation about the issue? and supposedly I’m the brainwashed one.
@Topher I can tell you that these types of concerns do not only happen at HA. I might not be an intern or an alumni but I have experienced a lot of verbal abuse when it comes to christianity. Always open to discuss the subject. Email is in the comments.
@justin, thank you for your comments. I didn’t mean to throw out your comments, or anyone else’s, I just feel the hurt interns, mostly the one’s behind this video, need to be willing for open dialogue. you are, and for that, I respect you.
I am sorry on behalf of christians for whatever you went through, I don’t pretend to justify it at all.
I did go through what these girls did and see a completely different picture. I feel that my, and all the other interns like me, need a say. this video was on tv for all to see, and it was horribly biased.
Overall I thought the video was pretty good….it definitely showed both sides and I thought that was fair. I can see people not wanting to go to the HA because of seeing this video but I also could see alot of people wanting to go to the HA because of what they saw.
Ultimately the one criticism that I have that I think Micah and several others hit on is the ESOAL footage. I think that the world is being shown that is what the HA is 24/7 which we all know is not true. Furthermore, yes they changed things and do things differently but yet we keep showing the same old footage…I would think there would be more credibility to gain if we actually showed up to date recent footage, yes?
Overall I thought it was decent and I pray that the girls interviewed will continue to gain the healing that they need. I also pray for David Hasz, Ron Luce and the ministry as a whole that God would continue to open their eyes and hearts wider to His neverending love and grace.
Blessings to you all!!
@Topher I appreciate that. Thank you.
I can see where you are coming from. However, from an outsiders point of view it comes across as throwing a ‘but’ into the argument. Its like saying we have these seemingly real, genuine acts of abuse that took place but look at all the good that has come from it.
I understand that there is a lot of good that comes out of this organization, whether I believe in it or not. But whether you have 5 or 1000 stories of this kind of abuse I think the real story that should be reported is that abuse. This isn’t directed at you but I feel that some of the responses have downplayed what these girls went through. I feel its a way to justify these programs when even 1 case of abuse is 1 too many.
Look at it this way….if you take out the religous aspect and put it into a school of 5000. You’ve got 5 people that were victimized while the rest were just fine the story would revolve around those victims. Nobody would say a thing. People would realize that its inexcusable what happened despite the good that has come out of the rest of this program. Why then should it be different with religion?
Anyway, not trying to argue. I could go on for days and this is not the time or the place for most of my views on christianity and religion in general. Abuse is bad no matter the type or venue. It needs to be stopped.
Like I previously said in the comments I am more than willing to continue the discussion outside this blog if you have any questions. justin . olsen 116 at gmail com. Without the spaces. Have a good night everybody.
I lost count of the blatant lies in the “documentary.” Pathetic excuse for journalism. Unbelievable twisting, distorting, deceitfulness, etc. I believe there is genuine hurt because I have felt it, but holy cow what a disgusting video.
and that’s the problem I have, 5 out of 500. I could be the 1 guy that get sick eating a specific restaurant. did I get sick? yes. was it the restaurants fault? possibly. should I publicly accuse the restaurant for being poison using slanted footage and bias? no.
the sad, sad truth is that the issue is not “is the HA a cult” it’s “why did these girls get hurt?” the answer? their perception. Did Dave Hasz force her do do ESOAL, a strictly optional event that we were warned the Staff would act as drill instructers through? no, she felt guilty if she didn’t, even though the only time you were “looked down on” is within the event. I for one “rang out” and was immediately greeted with love and caring by the staff, who had been playing as drill instructers earlier.
were the offices too hot? probably, it was Texas. some people never got used to it, it’s my experience that those building were always freezing to over compensate for the heat outside.
were interns restricted from outside contact? not at all, there were dorm phones that were time restricted, sure, but cell phones and emails were allowed and unrestricted, and all the interns frequently left campus to enjoy the towns around to shop, eat, go see movies, and whatever else they wanted to do.
Yes, we worked, it’s an INTERNSHIP! I for one, am glad for this fact as it gave me hands on training for ministry, training I use even now.
The teachings were straight from the Bible, and both Dave and Ron encouraged us to do our own research and come to our own conclusions.
the other events we did like the fasting? well, most christians practice fasting.
the missionary role play? it to was optional, you could leave if you wanted, I had an asthma attack during mine and chose to be done with it with no negative repercussions. I knew many more who got bored and quit.
the point I’m trying to make is this, the girls weren’t “brainwashed” they were young, but into a place that had strict rules on conduct and were made to work, study, make hard choices, and face themselves in a real way, and they didn’t like it. They took it as they were FORCED into it, were as most of us knew exactly what we were getting into.
all their stories sound horrible stated the way they are, with images of a 2 day event played off as daily life. but I fail to see how if you’re insecure and can’t stand the thought of letting someone down. or if you can’t stand the physical requirements (30 min of exercise every other day) or if you feel that choosing a working internship shouldn’t require you to work. amounts to abuse? I bet they think their parents giving out chores or not allowing certain behavior is abuse.
if you disagree, lets talk! if I’ve skewed the facts about this so called Cult, lets discuss it! come on former interns! alumni! christians! lets talk about the real issues, because most of the stuff said in the video, as I pointed out, if false or half truths. what am I missing?
Just saying, these girls have problems like the rest of the world. IDK why they choose to blame TM. Judging by the video, they didnt go through crap at TM.
Please read some of the stories if you still doubt what TM has put people through. I know when I was in the internship ESOAL was “optional” meaning I was hounded for opting out and “refusing to let God work in my life.”
As far as someone saying the unreached people retreat was optional? That was a standard, required event when I was there. It was also the one and only time in my intern year that I was disobedient–I demanded to leave as did a coremate. One reason I’ve yet to write much about that experience is that it was by far the most obviously EVIL thing. I was physically sick and truly frightened.
Again I believe most of the questions saying “what am I missing” are addressed in the true stories. I for one cannot continue to repost the many ways I was advised and my life was endangered every time someone comments on this site and calls the recovering alumni.
Many people are also missing the seriousness and cleverness of mind control. Most people believe they are immune and that means they will discount the evidence. And TM carries on the message that recovering interns were not cut out for the program, were all suffering from issues of rebellion etc.
At any rate I know that God blesses the meek, the persecuted, the abused, etc. so I will not allow TM or supporters manipulate me anymore. I, like Mica and countless others have lost my entire 20s. I’m not giving away the next decade without a fight!
Topher wrote: “and that’s the problem I have, 5 out of 500….”
Jesus left the 99 to help the one.
That’s the real issue.
I simply don’t see the spirit of Christ in any of Teen Mania’s interactions with these hurting alumni.
As a psychologist the people on here who “defend” TM as well as the kids having a wonderful internship would only give head to the use of mind alteration techniques being used by TM. The fact that most “Defenders” attack the hurting instead of talking about the issues shows a lack of argument so a quickness to attack the downtrodden. This wasn’t what God taught anywhere in the bible. That most use psychological fallacies to “prove their point” creates a further harm and victimization that is rather hurtful to all involved. Perhaps instead of attacking the hurting you could work on living and loving as someone who knew the true Loving GOD who’s whole law is summed up in two sections according to Christ Jesus: Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself!
I am deeply grieved at the “socially inept” comment. It’s hard to bare your soul on national television, especially when it’s about a huge organization. But even if you still maintain your opinion, don’t forget these famous words:
‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
I think That Redheaded one and Hillary just said it all.
And on the same train of thought…If TM is willing to hurt their very own interns and not give a loving and caring response to them not matter who is at fault, I wonder how many people the Teen Mania Machine has hurt around the globe. Just my Thoughts…
I’m wondering about this because it is for the so called weak and lost that they say they go on all those mission trips. Seriously, they are not that accepting of the weak or the lost. So many TM supporters prowl around and troll this site like a lion waiting for someone whom they can devour.
To everyone sitting in judgment of the women in the documentary and the rest of us who have claimed abuse: there is really nothing hurtful you can say that we haven’t already said to ourselves.
We left an abusive program and became self-abusers. I think this site is here to help us unlearn some of that.
@The Redhead One.
What type of Physchology have your studies and what are your credentials? Because your comment does not sound honest, more based on oppionion than reseach training or facts. Oh course speaking as a Physchology student:)
I am very disappointed that the entire HA program was not properly reported on. The MSNBC show was very bias. I am sorry that these ladies were emotioally hurt and for that I am glad they are getting the help they need. But even in the way they talked about the HA was full of bias and spite. The Lord has done amazing things in 1000’s of people who have come (and gone freely). If you have a story share it, but be honest and don’t intentially spin it to make the other side look darker than it really is. If you are honest in seeking the Lord yourself, don’t try to destroy something he is using for the good.
I hope this is fair enough to not be deleted by the admin. I hope this is a site for balance and conversation, not just one sided talk.
I was on staff at TM for two years (several yeras ago) – I was not aware of all the events that took place since I did not work in HA- but I know that our interns were hurting, physically abused- sometimes by fatigue, lack of medical care, verbally assaulted etc. I am also a parent and realized very quickly that my own children would never be allowed to participate- I know that some interns come out positive but there are HUGE numbers that come out needing help, take years to recover, leave the church etc- definitely NOT positive outcomes. Alot of the kids used to hang out at my house and when I did hear tidbits of the events (they didnt talk about them due to signing that form)- it was very easy to discern that things were not good for a large majority of the students.
I dont believe that most of the kids there are old enough (yes they are often legally adults) to withstand the pressures and brainwashing to NOT participate in so called optional events- they are coerced mentally to buy into the thought processes at TM.
The kids are TM are wonderful- pure motives, great hopes and dreams and truthfully, many of the staff are also wonderful and completely unaware of what really goes on in the dorms and at ESOAL or the old Cross walk events- in my opinion, the problem lies within a fairly small who are in Leadership, especially within the HA.
Using the logic used in the MSNBC presentation, most religious organizations could be considered a cult. Academics would disregard the presentation; courts would go looking for the other side of the story. The show came off as exaggerated, overly-dramatic, manipulative and staged. MSNBC clearly needs the ratings as much as those participating wanted the attention. Shoddy journalism, poor production, and certainly nothing to be proud of for anyone involved.
Anon, The dean of my department watched it with me and thought it was a fair representation showing what the program is like from the inside as well as what former members saw that would make these claims. You making baseless statements is uncalled for and pretty lacking in dignity!
First things first- congratulations and THANK YOU to the young ladies who were willing to bare their souls on this program- it was VERY brave and Im sure VERY difficult. You may take some difficult criticisms but please know that there are many more who will be helped by the telling of your story. Part of the whole cult/trauma reaction to TM is that MANY MANY interns leave feeling they are the only ones who feel like they do and have those regrets – this blog and programs like that go a long way to make it OK to accept healing.
Actually, I don’t stand alone, my friend. The show presented 100% of a ministry in a negative light. They failed to interview a single person who had graduated from the program. Yes, they told the story that they wanted to tell (and the one you wanted them to tell), but, it’s pretty easy to tell any story you want with creative editing and by limiting your sources, a statement I’m sure the dean of your department would understand.
@That redheaded one, What school do you go to?
You painting EVERYONE that “defends” TM as weak and susceptable to mind control is way over gernarlizing, lacking integrity and in your words only dignity.
The comments about “media bias” are amusing, as the documentary clearly showed not only several interviews with current interns, but many segments with Ron Luce and Dave Hasz themselves. Were they “100% negative” about their own ministry? C’mon!
The program’s closing note was that MSNBC asked Ron Luce for further comments on the cult allegations once that segment had been filmed, but he declined to be interviewed again. Well then, he’s in no position to complain.
Eric, perhaps you should do some research about balanced journalism and objectivity.
It’s interesting when people side with abusers. I grew up with the harm of an abusive, neglecting, and purely evil father. He was also very well-repected among a network of high-profile people. Whenever people found out my father was an artist and knew the murals he had painted, they would tell me how lucky I was and what a great man he was. When he died a few years ago, I had to go through a lot of abuse by the people who supported him. They felt that they knew him and that they knew he would never harm anyone. Their image of him did not change the truth.
It’s the same with TM, Ron and Dave. Yes, people love and respect them. Yup, people will continue to sing the praises of the ministry. It doesn’t negate the damage and abuse they have inflicted.
Jesus did not promote or prepare physical and mental hazing to be close to him. (And there is a difference between trials from God and abuse from TM!) I do not see why DH, RL and HS, etc. do what they do… this is not Jesus they are sharing.
My heart aches for those who have come out of the HA hurt like this. I too was emotionally abused while working overseas on the mission field (not with TM though). It took me years to forgive and get back to my normal independent, fun loving self. I also know though that those people love Jesus and are doing so much good for the kingdom of heaven. What they did to me was wrong and sure I wanted to take them down at points, but I knew that wasn’t what God wanted. We are all human, making mistakes. I just wish that Ron Luce and Teen Mania would apologize and offer support and help for these people. Also reevaluate the way they run their programs. I know Teen Mania does tons of good and has changed lives for the better (not brainwashed). But if people have been harmed in any way they should be the first to come along side of them. I know how much these women want to get their story out, but it’s sad that they have to drag an overall good organization who desires to make a difference for Jesus down to a world that hates Jesus and doesn’t understand the truth of the Bible. I pray each person effected negatively by TM will find healing and restoration as well as forgiveness as I have through my abuse. I also pray that TM will apologize and reevaluate the way they do things so they can continue making an impact on the world.
Anonymous– I work in media, so I think I’ve got it covered. I’m not saying I would have edited the story the same way myself, but it’s just plain wrong when some commenters are saying (here and elsewhere) that the coverage was “100% negative” and “they didn’t interview anyone who had a positive view” and “they didn’t interview any current interns…”
When Ron said that “it’s not for everyone,” I was sickened.
That is EXACTLY how they reeled us in. They said “this isn’t for everyone”, “you’re going to change the world”, “you are doing this because you are ON FIRE for God!”
So they use that line to get us in, but when we cry out about what they are doing and how we were deceived, they use the same line again.
“It’s not for everyone.”
“We warned you when you got here that it would be hard.”
“We told you God would push you beyond your limits.”
“God wants you to finish what you started.”
Classic mind control which also makes it hard to leave. Personally, when I was there, I didn’t want to leave and admit that I wasn’t on fire for God/good enough for Him. I didn’t want to “wimp out”. And I didn’t respect the people who did leave early because they proved to everyone they weren’t really willing to change the world.
Uh, NO. GOD did not push me past my limits. That was DH, RL, and other adult staff. Last time I checked they aren’t God.
Whether you think the documentary is one-sided or not, the thing to focus on here is that what Ron Luce and his group are teaching and doing is not at all biblical. The Bible teaches that Christ is to be our example. Did Christ ask his disciples to crawl through freezing mud? Did he manipulate them into eating worms to prove their devotion? Did he scream insults at them whenever they showed a moment of weakness? No. Not even after his disciples denied him during his greatest moment of need.
Ron Luce would have people believe that “real” Christians are the ones that survive his program, while everyone else is “insincere” or “fake.” The Bible makes no such distinctions between believers. The apostle Paul said that the weaker brother is to receive consideration and encouragement, not judgment and condemnation. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christians should prepare for trials and persecution by putting themselves through a physical boot camp. In fact, just the opposite: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against…spiritual wickedness in high places” (Eph. 6:12).
I personally know one of the women in the video. We were friends in high school. The person I knew then and the person in the video are two different people. The person I knew in high school was a vibrant, outgoing, passionately Christian woman. She had several close friends and a clean social life. She loved nothing more than to be in a worship service, and she talked about someday becoming a missionary. After she joined TM, I ran into her a couple of times at ATF events; she looked exhausted and hardly even acknowledged me. Now she sits in counseling, broken and lonely. The sparkle is gone from her eye. The enthusiasm is gone from her voice. Her smile has all but vanished. TM took this wonderful person totally willing to make a difference for God and ripped all the passion out of her soul. And this is discipleship? Let’s ask God and see what He thinks!
Someday, Ron Luce will have to answer to God for this demonic (yes, demonic!) version of the gospel he has perpetuated on America’s youth.
Concerning what I’ve seen of ESOAL, I just can’t help saying: Jesus doesn’t call us to push ourselves beyond our perceived limits; He calls us to depend wholly, entirely, utterly on Him. And when we’re burdened, He calls us to give our burdens completely over to Him, not to carry them with His strength. Events like this are made to sound godly, like they’re pushing people to trust in God, when in reality they seem to make the individual feel either like crap because they can’t do it, or like some special person because they can. Whether or not we can deem HA a “cult,” I’m sickened by the spiritual abuse and the very apparent expectation of perfection that is pervasive in a lot of TM’s teachings.
Personally, I’m praising God for this national coverage!!! Thank you, ladies, for sharing your stories so publicly. (I look forward to getting some male perspectives out in public, too.:) May the *truth* be told, and the people (interns, alumni, even leaders) be set free!
hmm…
I guess I’m surprised that so many people were so hurt by their experiences at the HA, but it’s good that people are free to share and express their opinions. This is America after all, and as a member of the Military, as well as an HA Alumni, I think that is of great importance.
Everyone experiences life events differently, and the only way to learn from experiences and grow as a person is not to hide what happened or be ashamed of it, but to expose and identify in order to find the truth.
I agree that LOVE is not emphasized at the HA, and I think that it should be one of the core values or pillars.
If truth and love are the ultimate goals, as I think they should be, I don’t think that people on either side are approaching this the right way.
Is anyone searching for a solution?
once again, there is nothing at TM concerning christianity, only adults abusing teenagers and making big money while they’re at it. There is no excuse for this behavior on the part of TM. Navy Seal training is for people in the armed forces, not for teenagers. As the victims sober up from their trauma, they suffer horrible things. This is not religion, it is abuse, pure and simple.
“could you imagine all of the “NON RECOVERING ALUMNI” there are out there.. THOUSANDS.. lets get there stories- and lets get them on the news.. I think that should drown out the voices of a hundread of less story tellers.”
…. WOW.
Cause when Jesus found the one sheep, he kicked it to the side and told the 99 others to drown out its cries with their bleating.
Wow. Stunned.
Not saying you shouldn’t have a voice, not at all- please, you SHOULD be able to freely talk about your positive experiences. But to say that great experiences should negate cases of ABUSE? Wow.
Thats the point.. We dont think it was abuse.. AT ALL.
I’m glad some people had positive experiences but I find it disturbing that
you want to “drown out the voices of a hundres or less story tellers”. That
type of attitude, to me, exhibits the abusive stance that is being discussed.
Not that it is deliberately abusive, but why would you feel the need to “drown
out” those who are hurting? Is there something wrong, unChristian, immoral,
or unethical in hurting? And why would you find hurting and talking about
hurting so threatening? This is the very attitude that is found, not only
apparantly at Honor Academy, but in countless other ministries and churches.
Hurt is a part of life and a part of our relationships as humans. I mean no
harm to the poster but I think this is something to think about.
But how can you define what was abuse or hurtful to someone else? And why
would you want to? Are you saying Honor Academy was perfect? Are you saying no one is hurt there?
“Thats the point.. We dont think it was abuse.. AT ALL.”
What you think is irrelevant. I watched the video. Are you saying that MSNBC staged the ESOAL footage? Those interns going through ESOAL, were they sobbing because they were experiencing the holy presence of God? Or where they crying because some guy was telling them that they were “weak losers” for not being able to choke back their vomit? No matter what you thought of your experience or the amount of “good” that TM does, THAT IS NEITHER BIBLICAL NOR HEALTHY! What Ron Luce is doing is a perversion of the gospel, and it should be called out for exactly what it is.
@anonymous 11:59
I’m not sure who “we” is in your statement. But if you don’t consider it abuse and believe we are all liars, let me pull a “TM” out for you:
“Sorry that you feel that way.”
What many people do not understand is that the shame of what was going on caused many (now-recovering) interns to believe that their feelings were wrong, selfish, lies, or their fault due to sin or attitude. Many of us wore plastic smiles just to get through the day. Some of us, like RA believed in the cause so much the contributed to the abuse. I contributed to the abuse in how I once judged people who had left HA or left their walk with God. Now I love and pray from them.
And you know, particularly in what is supposed to be a Christian program, even just the lack of love is abuse. The obvious zeal and pleasure in which TM Staff and GIs berate God’s children in their “Drill Sargent” role-playing IS abuse. People breaking other people down spiritually/emotionally/physically is abuse. While I certainly believe we will be tried and that God will need to break us at some point, I also believe that God will not break us through through the evil actions of Godly men.
I would love to know how these staff differ from Pharisees and Sadducees.
I’m not an Honor Acadamy alumni, but I have experienced similar hurts in
various other ministry settings. I don’t think the label “cult” is the
issue. I’m glad that people have come forth on this documentary to tell
about the hurt they experienced. Hurt and/or abuse does not have to be
deliberate. It can be at times, well intended. I think it is good to
have a forum for those who have been hurt. I recall Mr. Duncan in the documentary saying that the Honor Academy met all 5 of Mr. Lipton’s
points. I agree that many other churches and ministries could be called
“cults”. I think the main point is to evaluate what is hurting people, what
are the problems, and how to adress that.
Sorry I need to clarify what I said above:
While I certainly believe we will be tried and that God will need to break us at some point, I also believe that God will not break us through through the evil actions of Godly men… and praise those men for doing His work.
Can you imagine God handing out kudos to those who took pleasure as facilitators in ESOAL and The Gauntlet? What would He say? Good job making them cry? Do you think the Holy Spirit is giving Heath and Dave the words to speak when they yell at interns and they “wimped out”?
The God and Jesus I worship teach the power of words. Words give life or death. God’s Word brought this world into being and He made us in His image, so I don’t want to take my words lightly. I’m not gonna waste my breath calling people names in an effort to “make them stronger.” People should read the book, “Words that Hurt, Words that Heal.” It may give you pause.
We persevere and grow close to God IN SPITE of adversity. We thank God for our persecutions because of the opportunity we have been given to love ,etc. But we should not be seeking it (adversity, pain, etc.) out or we are walking a fine line to self-abuse.
If you love Teen Mania, then don’t you want to find out whether any of these things are true? Even if you had a great experience, read through these stories and see if you personally witnessed any of these types of abuses. Even if it didn’t happen to you, you know of at least one intern who was pushed too hard on one occasion. You may not care that it happened and you’re totally cool with it, but you know stuff like this really happened!
If you love the HA, don’t you want it to be the best it can be? I’ve heard so many pro-TMers basically say that if you weren’t smart enough to throw out any of the bad teaching you received at the HA, you’re an idiot. Don’t you think that bad teaching is a bad thing? Wouldn’t you like to see all the teaching be on point and Bible based? So would we!
If you believe that TM is doing God’s work, aren’t they under God’s protection? If these are all false allegations, isn’t God powerful enough to protect TM from “attacks of the enemy” or “lies of the devil”? Then why are you so afraid of people sharing their stories?? Maybe you are really afraid these stories ARE true!!! Wooooh!!! Spooky!
If you think the people on this site are your enemy or the enemy of TM, doesn’t the Bible teach in Matthew 5:44, “44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” If this is what Jesus commanded, then why do you come here and call people names? That’s NOT how Jesus told you to handle the situation!
Jesus said PRAY for those who persecute you, not mock them and call them names until you make them cry!
There are many of us who have made our own individual and group efforts to seek reconciliation and to address the issues and concerns that we have from our experiences at our time with TM. TM has not responded to the ‘accountability’; nor responded in a Christ-like manner to the hurts we have expressed. This has been done to show respect to our faith as directed and to avoid causing a black eye to followers of Christ and to not embitter those who are not Belivers. Unfortunately, TMs lack of appropriate response has only left many with the option of bringing this to the larger public forum to expose the truth, hurts and -hopefully, eventually – seek solutions.
As for seeking a solution: I wrote an Open Letter to the Board at TM and put forth many suggestions for seeking solutions that would benefit both the hurting and those who do not feel they were hurt. Feel free to do a simple search and you’ll find the letter.
Now… as for the wonderfully unproductive bickering and attacking of people… remember, if you are not part of the solution yourself, than you are a part of the problem. That is to say: SHOW CHRIST-LIKE LOVE AND COMPASSION FOR THOSE OF US WHO WHERE HURT.
God Bless and (please) may you be a blessing ~ Blue Lantern
While we’re at it, let’s put ESOAL into perspective. I went through Army boot camp in 2001. Yes, it was very physically challenging. I had to crawl through the dirt on more than one occasion, function on limited sleep, and do things I did not feel adequately capable of doing. However:
I was never offered nor encouraged to eat worms or other retch-inducing “foods.”
I was never forced to sleep on pavement or outdoors without proper gear.
I was never awakened in the middle of the night to douse myself with cold water.
I was never told my entire life would be a failure if I didn’t complete a challenge.
I was never called a “loser” for failing to complete a challenge.
I was never required or expected to go without food. In fact, eating was encouraged to keep the body healthy for physical activity.
I was never forced to stand in the cold or rain without protective gear.
I was never told that God would be disappointed in me if I didn’t finish boot camp.
FACT: If the military did to people what ESOAL does, they would be sued.
Thank you April–you make awesome points.
Have any of you actually DONE ESOAL? I did, as did many of my friends and it was one of the hardest and most rewarding experiences of my life. I know some of these crying people like the ones in the video, heck I was one! but the truth is the staff didn’t just get off on being mean, they were playing a role to bring about the needed outcome. I was one of those staff the next year. I was “mean” but after the event I also loved on the interns and was thanked by those same interns for pushing them. the fact is, if you had a problem with the HA while you were there, that’s fine. what isn’t is to paint it in a way that make the intentions of the staff different than what they were. I could say I was abused by anything, and people would rally around me because everyone loves a good victim story. the truth is the “abuse” those girls faced was self abuse. they chose to work at a ministry who’s first week pushed people just to show what you were in for and to give you the opportunity to leave if it wasn’t for you. they rolled out the rules, the exercise, the job aspect, the school aspect, all in the first week so that no one was “shocked about the program. please, if you’ve never been an intern, don’t blindly accept the slanted video with out hearing the other side. and if you have been an intern, really examine what you’re claiming, were you “tricked and abused”? or were you warned and decided to do the internship anyway. no one forced you to go or to stay, in fact, you PAID to stay!
@anonymous 12:50
All I can say is God bless you. (But note since I am personally very obese, I should just shut up and remember that no one wants to hear my voice. Including God so God probably didnt hear me either…)
🙂 Sometimes a little sarcasm is needed here 🙂
@anonymous 12:52
I really hope you are not a real TM supporter, but just someone trolling this site, God love you.
Topher, I think you are missing that people stayed and paid to be there due to the spiritual abuse. Please read the true stories section of this site. The issues go way beyond ESOAL.
@Anon….Seriously? You are just a troll…That was totally uncalled for. I seriously hope you are not a TM supporter either…WOW. Regardless of how she feels, the personal attacks are TOTALLY out of line. Check yourself.
Anon 1:01
I actually DID go on the ABC diet.Shortly after my experience with the HA.Years later I began to compulsively overeat. I was not obese in HA.
Another thought just occurred to me:
If the HA in general and ESOAL in particular are supposed to be training for persecution by the world, doesn’t that actually display a profound lack of faith in God and in the Holy Spirit’s ability to give us strength when we need it?
The martyrs of the early Church never put themselves through anything like this, and they stood up for their faith while being tortured with hot oil, wild animals, flaying, even being used as torches in the Roman Emperor’s garden. None of that was accomplished by their own strength, by “training,” or by boot-camp tactics. In fact, those who went out and specifically sought out martyrdom for its own sake were rebuked.
Instead, the early Church formed a strong community, where people were loved, even the people that society didn’t think much of (women, slaves, etc). All believers were welcomed in and those who sought to enforce extra rules (the Judaizers and others) were eventually denied.
It’s not about how strong you are, and it never has been. It’s about how strong God is, and He gives strength when it is needed.
Everyone should heed the words of “The Devil’s Advocate” above:
“If you love Teen Mania, then don’t you want to find out whether any of these things are true? Even if you had a great experience, read through these stories and see if you personally witnessed any of these types of abuses. Even if it didn’t happen to you, you know of at least one intern who was pushed too hard on one occasion. You may not care that it happened and you’re totally cool with it, but you know stuff like this really happened! If you love the HA, don’t you want it to be the best it can be?” […] “Jesus said PRAY for those who persecute you, not mock them and call them names until you make them cry!”
Also, anon, again, you haven’t said anything I haven’t said myself. HA generated a strong pattern of self-abuse. I have called myself every bad thing in the book.
I realize your intent is to hurt me. I also realize my freedom in Christ Jesus means I do not have to take abuse. So I forgive you and pray you will find the joy we all strive for.
If you are less concerned with showing compassion to the hurting than with bolstering the reputation of those who hurt them, then there are plenty of words that describe you, but “follower of Jesus” is not among them.
To keep things in perspective as this all relates to key moments of past Church leadership training I figured I would post the following:
I’ve been studying John Wesley’s teaching method a lot latelyHere are a few key things I have uncovered.
For starters:
He had 8 core concepts he drilled into his followers:
1. Human Nature is perfectible by God’s grace.
2. Learning comes by doing the will of God.
3. Mankind’s nature is perfected by participation in groups, not by acting as isolated individuals.
4. The spirit and practice of primitive Christianity can and must be recaptured.
5. Human progress will occur if people participate in “the means of grace” (Prayer, scripture reading, acts of service, worship, etc.).
6. The gospel must be presented to the poor.
7. Social evil is not to be “resisted” but overcome with good.
8. The primary function of spiritual/educational leadership is to equip others to lead and minister, not to preform the ministry personally.
Second, his organization was very inclusive of many whom the present church ignored…yet very exclusive as well. To be a part of John Wesley’s general congregation he called “The society” you had to join a small group and you had to be committed to that small group called a “Class meeting.” To be a part of the “Class meeting” you had to be open to a litany of intence accountability.
Wesley started with a group at Oxford called the “Holy Club.” They asked each other a series of 22 questions every week to hold each other accountable.
Just a suggestion but it might do us all some good to ask them of ourselves. Especially as tempers flair on both sides of this debate. Both RAs and non-RAs read this blog, so everyone please…check your hearts:
1. Am I consciously or unconsciously creating the impression that I am better than I really am? In other words, am I a hypocrite?
2. Am I honest in all my acts and words, or do I exaggerate?
3. Do I confidentially pass on to another what was told to me in confidence?
4. Can I be trusted?
5. Am I a slave to dress, friends, work or habits?
6. Am I self-conscious, self-pitying, or self justifying?
7. Did the bible live in me today?
8. Do I give it time to speak to me every day?
9. Am I enjoying prayer?
10. When did I last speak to someone else of my faith?
11. Do I pray about the money I spend?
12. Do I get to bed on time and get up on time?
13. Do I disobey God in anything?
14. Do I insist upon doing something upon doing about which my conscience is uneasy?
15. Am I defeated in any part of my life?
16. Am I jealous, impure, critical, irritable, touchy or distrustful?
17. How do I spend my spare time?
18. Am I proud?
19. Do I thank God that I am not as other people, especially as the Pharisees who despised the publican?
20. Is there anyone whom I fear, dislike, disown, criticize, hold a resentment toward, or disregard? If so, what am I doing about it?
21. Do I grumble or complain constantly?
22. Is Christ real to me?
So there it is. Take what you will from this as it relates to either side of this debate. It’d say there is something in there for all of us. Just trying to keep it real people.
@Eric. Thank you. You just summed up exactly what I have been feeling.
For clarification sake that Wesley post was from me…Dan Goulson. Not the “Anonymous” everyone has been responding too. I didn’t have the title on the right setting when I hit “post comment.” My bad. This is a very lively discussion, though. I’m enjoying this. Ron and Dave are eventually going to have to respond to this more directly. I look forward to seeing that.
It is funny that they are now anti-teen mania yet one of the girls is still sporting a Global Expeditions back pack when she got picked up at the airport. Just an observation…
Hi anonymous 1:23
There are some good questions there and it’s thought-provoking, even though John Wesley isn’t someone I think we should all be trying to emulate (I prefer Jesus for that)… it may also be triggering for some of the recovering alumni including myself, I dont know how much feedback you will get on that list.
But I wanted to say thanks for posting and keeping it respectful! We all know it can be tough to do 🙂
After watching the documentary, I’m very disappointed at the context, as well as sad for the women whose stories we saw. I’m disappointed because they only interviewed 5 of over 8,000 graduates, and those 5 were all ones with bad experiences. I personally don’t agree with everything TM does, but I had a wonderful experience, and never felt manipulated, coerced, or forced in any way to do anything there. I’m very sorry to those who did–what an awful feeling that nobody should have to go through.
I only wish MSNBC had shown both sides of the story instead of being clearly one-sided, and attempting to sway audiences who have never even heard of Teen Mania.
@angie & keith
I used to feel the way you do, even though I went through abuse at TM. I did not think I had gone through abuse at the time, however. I thought I was inherently unlovable and that Jesus didn’t want me. I thought everything TM teachings said was true about us and God.
And even if it was a small minority of us who went through that, it’s pretty cruddy that the majority “who had a great time” didn’t stand up for us when we were belittled, neglected, or endangered. I understand why no one did–we were taught that a bad experience at HA was inconsequential or the result of sin.
It’s just that abuse should not be tolerated, even if it is happening only with SOME of us (though I do not believe that to be the case).
Dear Ron Luce,
If the Honor Academy isn’t for everyone, then why do you accept as many people as you need to fill slots instead of only accepting the people the Honor Academy is FOR. Also, when the interns the Honor Academy is NOT for try to leave, why does leadership encourage them to stay? Why does leadership tell them they need to honor their commitment to this program that is NOT FOR them? Hmm?
@That redheaded one, What school do you go to?
You painting EVERYONE that “defends” TM as weak and susceptable to mind control is way over gernarlizing, lacking integrity and in your words lacking dignity.
“If the Honor Academy isn’t for everyone, then why do you accept as many people as you need to fill slots instead of only accepting the people the Honor Academy is FOR. Also, when the interns the Honor Academy is NOT for try to leave, why does leadership encourage them to stay? Why does leadership tell them they need to honor their commitment to this program that is NOT FOR them? Hmm?”
It’s a great excuse. Like I said earlier, they use that phrase to reel kids in and use it again when they speak out against what happens. In regards to mind controlling young, impressionable kids (which we were at the time) it’s actually a brilliant strategy.
Hey, we told you it would be tough: “It’s not for everybody.”
How sick and tragic 🙁
I love how some of HA’s alumni keep coming on here and saying, “There wasn’t any abuse; I came out just fine!” The point still remains that what HA does and teaches IS NOT IN ANY WAY BIBLICAL. This is not how Jesus trained his disciples. This is not how Paul instructed the disciples of the early church. It doesn’t really matter if you had a great experience. You were instructed through a FALSE DOCTRINE…one that causes some to lose their faith entirely, and others to perpetuate the same distorted view of the gospel. If anyone of TM’s supporters would like to debate the issue on these grounds, I’m all ears!
IF anything in this story is credible it is definitely isolated cases. I spent several years working with Teen Mania and was never in any way coerced into staying on for the next year. I participated in ESOAL multiple times and saw God do amazing things in my life and in the life of many others each time. I have personally met with TM leadership several times with concerns and questions and each time I got a very solid Biblical answer. I have friends who graduated and moved away and now work all over the world advancing the kingdom. I also knew dozens of people who never finished their year and never looked down on them or judged them.
Here’s some facts.
– The gates are never locked. Anyone can leave at any time.
– The overwhelming majority of people who participate in honor academy and other teen mania events walk away knowing God better.
– Unfortunately, the girls in the story loose credibility because MSNBC did a one sided story and didn’t present the whole truth. I am not saying they haven’t had a hard life and hard experiences, but MSNBC messed it up.
I am definitely praying for these ladies and anyone else who has felt harmed in any way and above all desire we would come together in one spirit to glorify God in all we do!
I’d prefer to follow Jesus over John Wesley any day. But we can learn a lot from history and other leaders in the faith. I don’t agree with everything John Wesley preached, but its interesting stuff to review because so much of modern American Christianity was influenced by him (both directly and indirectly) and what he taught about living life as a follower of Christ.
Also, a few songs I have found to be a source of comfort and refuge when I find myself processing some painful and hard stuff in my life.
http://youtu.be/lRxQK_dMmmw
Don’t ever forget Jesus is and should always be our refuge. No one person or organization should ever change that or take that away from us. It breaks my heart to see people say they can’t worship anymore because it’s too painful. That is an attack from the enemy to use these past moments to get in the way of us openly going to God and worshiping Him freely. It’s all about grace and freedom in Christ. I pray all can find peace, go to Jesus freely and find rest.
“The gates are never locked. Anyone can leave at any time.”
I would beg to differ. As an intern without a car, I could not go to the doctor when I needed it. When kids say they want to leave, they are told that God’s will is them to stay. Some are even punished with extra work, confrontations, or simply ignored by their core. TM leadership was unresponsive when I was stranded in the DFW airport, until OTHER ministries started calling them about it.
Plus, the documentary was MEANT to be about a pseudo-Christian cult and recovery. Should other documentaries ABOUT abuse strive to show the other side as well–the side of the abusers?
Shannon-ashley
That really stinks about not being able to find a ride. I know that they now offer a regular shuttle to the clinic through out the week free of charge and ca’s and other leadership help find rides to and from the airport. Not sure when you were there but as with anything in life they are changing and I believe it is for the better. 🙂
As far as showing both sides in a case of abuse, that is assuming there is obvious abuse. 5 people claiming abuse out of the thousands of participants does not substantiate the claim. To their credit, they likely had some rough lives before teen mania and attending the honor academy helped them open that up. I pray the recovery process leads them even closer to the lord.
I believe this is a case where both sides should have been heard equally. As I said… it is not normal that people come out feeling this way. It is upsetting that a major network would allow something so one sided to be aired with out proper investigation. There is some great information at http://www.honoracademyalumni.com/ that gives the other side of the story.
There are a lot more than 5 people claiming abuse. We have 67 stories on this website alone. And those are just the people who were able to put their story out there. Many people don’t want to put their stories out because A) they can be easily identified and don’t wish to be attacked the way the brave women in the documentary have been or B) they don’t like thinking about that time and do not want to do so in depth to write up their story. Many people who did not have a good experience at TM would prefer to not think about it ever again–even if it is negatively impacting their lives to this day. It is hard for those who were abused to talk about it. It is hard for them to share it with people who are going to tear them down and be critical.
@Anonymous 2:53
There are more than 5 people claiming abuse. You can read 67 stories on the site, I believe. Additionally, I would ask that people be careful not to marginalize the pain because you think it’s a low number. (How many wounded–and VOCAL–alumni will be enough?
I was there 2000-01 and was accepted to do the ministry team road, but quickly decided against it. At the time, I believed I was doing God’s work there and anytime my Christian mother complained about what went on, I stuck up for TM and told her she didn’t understand how we were changing the world.
For years people asked me about TM and I sang it’s praises. I judged harshly in my heart any ex-interns who lost their faith. It took me time for be to be able to say that what went on there was wrong. Now I understand that the teaching is more of the Old Law plus man-made doctrine and not the message of Jesus.
I was going to mention the official HA website in my previous post. You will notice that they offer only positive views of the experience as well, but I wouldn’t accuse them of bias because the point of the site is to get people to HA. As the point of the documentary was to discuss abuse.
I want to thank you for being a very kind anonymous poster 🙂 even though I disagree, I can have empathy for your point of view.
67 is a lot of stories. For the sake of round numbers lets say it was 100. And there have been over 8000 graduates from the Honor Academy. That would mean that of those 8000, .0125 percent experienced abnormal circumstances they could claim as abuse.
I don’t know exactly what happened with these 5 or with those 100 (or whatever the number is) and they may have gone through some things that negatively affected them. But when people think of cults that are evil and oppressive they are talking about those where the majority are treated badly or ‘brainwashed.’ To say that teen mania is as bad as they make it sound due to the claims of less than 1 percent of the participants is the most ‘radical’ element of this entire story.
Again, my heart goes out to those negatively impacted. I don’t know their whole story and pray the best for them and don’t want to speak negatively about them in an way. It just isn’t right that teen mania be given such negative publicity for such small amount of claims.
Oh, so if only 14 women out of 50,000 that join the military complain of being raped by their superiors, their claims can’t be substantiated because enough people aren’t complaining? I’m stunned by your superior logic.
The video footage of ESOAL shows clear physical, mental and emotional abuse taking place. Whether people want to acknowledge it as such is a different matter.
Both sides of the matter were heard. Ron Luce and his team had lots of time to speak for the program in the documentary, as well as a couple of pro-TM interns.
You shouldn’t make ignorant assumptions about the victims in this documentary. I knew one of the girls personally. She had great parents and a great home life. Before she went to TM, she was one of the most well-adjusted people I knew. Usually good Christian families, not drug abusers, pay to send their kids into this program. Stop being a troll.
Julie, you make such good points! When I chose to share my story in 2010, I gave my real name. People messaged me on FB and asked if it was me, and I couldn’t help but feel ashamed. Being honest about painful, messy histories like these are very hard. Additionally, at the time I believed the HA just needed a little bit of change to catch people like me who “fell through the cracks.” After posting my story I quit visiting this site and believed I could move on with my life. I truly did not want to think about it again.
Last week I was on a friends FB page. I saw someone had posted about the upcoming documentary and came back to this site. I started to consider the symptoms of leaving a cult and saw that I have gone through them all and I prayed about what was going on in my heart. For the first time in years, my heart was unburdened. I believe Christ has delivered me as He already did all of the work at the cross. But I am FINALLY accepting that love, instead of attempting to crucify myself and deserve His Love.
Teen Mania has periodically gotten negative publicity in the entire time I’ve been affiliated with the ministry. How much damage do you think this show is going to do? People are acting like RA has collapsed the ministry in a day because of this documentary. Guess what TM lovers, no one gives a flying f*** about Teen Mania except those of us who have been affiliated with it. How many people who aren’t affiliated with TM in some way do you think watched this documentary? Probably not many. So quit your griping about how horrible it is that TM was portrayed in a negative life. Stop being bitter about the RA website. Move on!
Things are rarely ever straight forward. There were times when I loved being an intern. But there were times when I hatred to too. There where times when I felt safe andcared for and there were times when I felt so invaded for. You can read my story on this website, Stephanie’s story.
But here is one of the very small, very damaging thing I experienced. The day summer missions started DH met with the HA department to give us a pep talk for the no sleep summer coming up. Reminding us that we were going to have to work really hard all summer long. I had just spent the past several weeks paint Quonset domes. It was fun, I loved it. I worked really hard, without the supplies I needed and often with my helpers not being super artisticly inclined, so their work had to be redone. I was not given any type of vehicle to transport my supplies from ops to the domes and around the village so I did a lot oflugging full paint cans around. The last week before summer, I got to work at 7 and didn’t leave until the sun went down, and sometimes came back after dinner to work under the light until 10 or 11. I did not mind this at all. I loved it!
So on the day of the start of summer programs DH asked us how we were feeling. I said tired. He then lectured me, infringement of the whole department about how, I didn’t know tired yet… and how I needed to be stronger And basically made me feel like all of my hard work was not valuable.
It was a little thing… really not a big deal, how would DH know what I had been up to for weeks. But theblanket assumption that it was not enough and that I needed to give more was so painful.
This is not something I dwell on… but I have found that this lack of compassion and caring has put into me a “nothing you do is good enough to be seen or acknowledged” attitude. And I learned that not matter how hard I work, it is never enough.
It’s not the big things, it is the little things the wear you down and break the spirit. The feeling that you are constantly being judged and evaluated. The feeling of not being seen for who you are, andbeing judged on an incomplete picture…
God can become very small at the HA, I saw a girl with her watch on a timer to remind her to acknowledge God’s presence ever half hour. I saw lists of things we had to do to be Right with God. This idea of a quantifiable righteousness and a messureable relationship with thesource of all things is terrifying and leads right into self perpetuating abuse.
Seriously if the HA softened themselves just a bit, rather than always fighting something, measuring something, but instead allowed people to newborn the are open and honest and full of the great range of experience and emotion, would that be so bad.
I’m rambaling…. sorry. I believe in the idea of a place where people can go and learn about their relationship with God. I just feel the the HA represents how DH, RL and HS related to God, and to put their relationship on someone else has been extremely damaging to several amazing people.
Claims of rape in the military are a lot more extreme than claims of mental and emotional abuse in a Christian organization known worldwide to be Godly. It would be interesting to interview locals in east Texas, especially pastors who have interns attend their churches and get their perspective on teen mania. As I said a few times now, these girls very well may have experienced negative things and those should be talked out between them and the people who caused them but there is no basis whatsoever to accuse teen mania as a whole to be this evil manipulative place. The point I want to make is not in any way to dis-credit the girls.
the time that was given to teen mania spokespersons was often accompanied by dark sounding music and usually got cut short just to intro into a point the recovering crew was trying to press. It was interesting that they interviewed one girl about UPG and then went on to have one of the recovering girls tell about world awareness. two completely different events. Can you honestly say that isn’t a twist?
ESOAL has changed over the years. TM themselves have admitted that mistakes have been made in the past and it is now a great event that focuses on positively building up participants. The things in the videos were about 10 years old. Mistakes were made but changes have also been made.
Sorry for the typos and autocorrects… writing from my phone
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.”
— Jesus (Matthew 18:12-14)
The reason there are no successful teen mania stories is because there are not any. The people running this program are scum bags out to get rich of jesus and abuse teenagers. The teens that participate in the program are scarred for life and purposely left in the dark, i.e. with any tools to think for themselves. If you read statistics on evangelical xtian cults, you’ll find that very few stick with it more than a few years and those that do stick with it are typically undiagnosed psychotic narrcisists. Most people give up this daily living by the literal word of the bible while sitting in the middle of the secular world. I remind you that interns are not payed, not trained for anything but conversion and miracle narratives, and leave with zero skills except to become missionaries. Do you know how to read your religious book in ancient Greek? Do you know the scholastic history of your religion, the fact that your brand of fundi is actually a product of historical revisionism? No, none of you know this, because you have been fully brainwashed to not ask questions, to not be a human being, and instead, just like real terrorists, you are programmed to do exactly what your handlers tell you to do. Go luck with false enlightenment and non truth. This has nothing to do with religious worship and everything to do with abuse and mind control. If any of you interns were allowed to think for yourselves, you would realize this and very soon start suferring the consequences of your decesions – PTSD – it’s a very sad story indeed! It’s time to rid ourselves of these anti human findi xtian terrorist cults – blot them and their leaders off the face of this earth or send them to Africa where they already enjoy hunting down and killing people for their beleifs.
wow hypermania that is soooo untrue!! there are thousands of successful stories from interns of HA. you all just dont wanna hear then n that documentary didnt want to include them!!
Yeah, there are thousands of successful stories from interns! Like the interns who come on here and call the ladies in the documentary fat, socially inept, ugly, and stupid! What great fruit! So much success!!!
I suppose if you only value perfect people, you have no need for Christ and the cross. I’m not sure why anyone would want to spend their time bashing recovering alumni and (very feebly) sick up for TM if they don’t have an interest in God’s Truth, but to each his own 🙂
i assume you all know i meant STICK up for TM not sick 🙂
I agree that it is uncalled for to call the ladies any of those things. I urge people to check out http://www.honoracademyalumni.com/ and get an idea of the good that really does come from HA. So many lives around the country and around the world changed for the better… Check it out before you say no good comes out of it.
For the record, it has never been the position of this blog that nothing good happens at Teen Mania – but whatever good happens does not excuse abuse.
“wow hypermania that is soooo untrue!! there are thousands of successful stories from interns of HA. you all just dont wanna hear then n that documentary didnt want to include them!!”
So, TM interm, how much they paying you to troll here? Oh yeah, nothing, you’re actually paying them thousands of dollars to abuse you. In return you receive no skills and no training. You learn how to mimic miracle and conversion narratives – you learn to become the most hateful person in the world – a religious troll.
Do you know anything about your religious tradition? Are you allowed to study it or ask questions about it? Do you just believe whatever your handlers tell you? Like I wrote, most xtian fundis in cults give up the life of extreme deprivation after a few years.
I hope you receive your autonomy some day, the ability for you to think for yourself. It’s nor really possible to live in a secular world while you play god in human cloths. Very sad, indeed.
As to your scumbag handlers, they’ll get theirs some day. You can’t train and abuse teens and turn them into evangelical terrorists for long until the federal government catches up with you.
That ilk belongs in Africa where they can play holy war in the open. I hear Uganda calling. Oh, but you already now that most of your money, which you gave to your abusers, goes to Uganda to lobby for a theological government, which uses the bible to kill heretics and sinners. I hear that Martin Ssempa is a man after Ron Luce’s own heart.
Good job, Jesus, kill some more, abuse some more, molest some more innocents, while you preach love.
“For the record, it has never been the position of this blog that nothing good happens at Teen Mania – but whatever good happens does not excuse abuse.”
Thank you, RA–that is a very important distinction, and I agree. I also believe that the best and most enduring lies have some truth to them. I have intern friends online who do not believe TM is a cult or that it is abusive (though they admit abuses occur there) and we get along fine.
I also love Jesus and do not blame God for any of these abuses–this is about people abusing people.
I also know more interns from my actual time there who currently believe TM was abusive than who dont. I can think of about 30 off hand who agree but do not (or rarely) visit these forums. We all grieve and heal in different ways.
Don’t worry, I got this! I’m on the inside bringing it down day by day, slowly, keeping records. Whistle blower status here I come
Whistle Blower Anon – Looking forward to learning and hearing more – as well as to when your information is EXPOSED.
Beth, I doubt thats legit.
I love that Ron’s summation of ESOAL is that “you discover things about yourself like ‘Wow, I’m a quitter and I shouldn’t be.'” Wow, sounds like a great time Ron, sounds like Christ is first.
And was he talking about TM when he said “It’s like candy with poison in it, it looks good but it will kill you.”? because he should have been.
Glad to see that he declined one more opportunity to smugly smile at the camera. A former staffer told me recently that Dave really isn’t the source of error at TM, that really most of the nonsense is from Ron- this documentary made that clear.
Dan, those are some great points. Very thought provoking to read.
In a small Eastern European town, a man went through the community slandering the rabbi. One day, feeling suddenly remorseful, he begged the rabbi for forgiveness and offered to undergo any penance to make amends. The rabbi told him to take a feather pillow from his home, cut it open, scatter the feathers to the wind, and then return to see him. The man did as he was told, then came to the rabbi and asked, “Am I now forgiven?”
“Almost,” came the response. “You just have to do one more thing. Go and gather all the feathers.”
“But that’s impossible,” the man protested. “The wind has already scattered them.”
“Precisely,” the rabbi answered. “And although you truly wish to correct the evil you have done, it is as impossible to repair the damage done by your words as it is to recover the feathers.”
(Words that Hurt, Words that Heal, Rabbi Joseph Telushkin)
While Christ’s cross covers all of the repentant heart, there are still consequences to the words we speak. We can’t retrieve them once they’re out there and have been said. As someone working through recovery, I know how deeply even “just words” can haunt the soul, and I am really trying to cultivate some love in the words I choose even when I’m disagreeing.
Ron Luce says he takes teenagers when they’re most vulnerable and shakes the red flag until they run at it, then he pulls away and they run right into Jesus. It sounds to me like they run right into the life of a religious extremists on the outs with most of society and only fit to live the life of missionary. I wonder if that is what the teens have in mind when they’re duped by this ambush.
Anonymous (from earlier): you claim the ESOAL footage in the documentary was about 10 years old. Funny, that’s exactly when my friend (one of the victims in the video) went through the HA program.
So changes have been made, huh? Mistakes have been admitted? Then why hasn’t TM reached out to these women and tried to make restitution or ask for forgiveness? Why are there former alumni on this page making disparaging, UNCHRISTIAN comments about these women?
Anonymous (November 7, 2011 3:16 PM) says:
“67 is a lot of stories. For the sake of round numbers lets say it was 100. And there have been over 8000 graduates from the Honor Academy. That would mean that of those 8000, .0125 percent experienced abnormal circumstances they could claim as abuse. “
I have to correct the math error above:
100 out of 8000 is 1.25%
However, it doesn’t appear that two orders of magnitude would make much difference to this individual.
btw, it appears that there is a WOT (web of trust) ratings attack against this site. regulars who use WOT may want to provide their own ratings.
I went on 6 Global Expeditions trips between the ages of 13 and 18 I have wonderful memories of the experience. And even though I am by no means the hard core christian they aim to raise I see no problem in their goals. Some people say they were brainwashing them to not have sex before marriage. I say… I didn’t make it til marriage in fact my beloved husband is the number 5 notch on my belt and I’m not proud of that. But I did manage to hold out until I was 18 and as miserable as highschool was It would have been even worse if I was sleeping around with guys then. It was good to have reason in my life to not give myself away so cheaply and I see no problem with an organization promoting abstinence. Someone has to since the majority of parents and schools don’t anymore.
I work at a psychiatric hospital that has a unit for trauma victims. I would say 90% of our admissions to this unit had a traumatic event over twenty years ago that they are just now acknowledging. Usually there is something that triggers the memories and the individual increasingly becomes more and more depressed to the point of needing hospitalization.
The recovering alumni are simply ahead of the other alumni who have yet to realize that they, too, have been traumatized.
i would like to know how if someone leaves a comment in support of HA you can assume they r part of the alumni or an intern. you know HA does have a whole lot of supporters who never went to HA. maybe you should stop assuming every comment is someone who participated directly in HA. you are only saying that to try to make HA interns who support HA look bad or to say the comment is only being made because they r brainwashed. and every time you say someone only says something positive is because they r brainwashed only makes you look ridiculous.
anon (10:43 PM), you seem pretty brainwashed to me. Those in a cult never criticize it.
Wendy – your analysis is spot on. My heart goes out to all those who suffer PTSD.
so funny…i would love to know how i am brain washed being i have never went to HA..hahaha what a joke!! oh i know i guess i am brainwashed because i believe in Jesus Christ n the bible, and i live my every day life trying to be as much like Jesus as i can and support a school that is out there trying to teach that to our youth. there should be many more schools out there doing the same. maybe there wouldnt be so much crime n unmarried sex n babies to unwed parents n children who’s parents abandoned them or drug addict’s. i am very sorry anyone was hurt or feel hurt but you all are not speaking truth about a lot of things! and to call HA a cult is ridiculous! and this so called documentary was bias to what you all wanted it to say n could of cared less about the majority of people have had an awesome experience and grew from it. again the brain washing comments just make you look ridiculous!!
This is how Teen Mania perceives this blog and the people on it.
http://www.honoracademy.com/intern-life/faqs/recovering-alumni-information/
This is nothing short of a chilling stand by Teen Mania leadership on several levels.
Bene D
anon 12:03 – it’s not surprising that they play the victim. They dismiss their criticism because everyone won’t give their full name and show up to have a discussion. Abusers always want to control the abused and gee they don’t understand that the people they hurt do not want to give their names out of fear and do not want to sit down and have a discussion with their abusers.
This cult makes 18 mil at least per year. They have plenty of money to pay for propaganda. Their motive reminds me a lot of the tactics of Scientology – especially with the free labor they receive from their members.
Here is some slick propaganda they paid for:
http://honoracademyparents.blogspot.com/
Notice the language used in these stories. Do normal people even talk or write this way? Pay attention to the way things are said in the stories on the blog. It sounds a lot like PR to me with many embedded talking points. Note the overuse of 3 pronged talking points as well. It’s very slick.
I have been very open with Heath and shared my full name and year. He has been deleting my posts on the directors blog. I was not rude but I described the tribal lte and how I learned negative self-talk from HA facilitators/drill sargents.
attn Teen Maniacs – the unexamined life is not worth living. question everything, especially those around you and over you.
You still don’t get it, do you, HA-supporter Anonymous? You say you believe in the Bible and try to live as Jesus lived. So then it should be obvious that what HA teaches is NOT BIBLICAL.
“Women should wear makeup to please their husbands.” –not biblical
“Lukewarm Christians are those who don’t shout loud enough during worship.” –not biblical
“The way to make a maximum impact for God is to become a martyr.” –not biblical
“Christians must continually prove their devotion to God or they don’t really love Him.” –not biblical
“Christians who graduate from HA are stronger and spiritually superior to other Christians.” –not biblical
“If you had premarital sex, your marriage is doomed to chronic distrust and anxiety.” –not biblical
“Only missionaries are fully committed to building the Kingdom of God.” –not biblical
“Christians who don’t want to challenge themselves by doing a program like HA won’t have any real impact on the world. In fact, we should question if they really are Christians.” –not biblical
As a Christian myself, I’m all for schools that want to teach our nation’s youth how to live as disciples of Christ. But HA, in my opinion, isn’t one of those schools. It is instilling a false, unbiblical doctrine and attitude. Seeing as how the Bible continually warns against the dangers of submitting to false doctrine, I cannot, in good conscience, support such an endeavor, even if some claim to have had a good experience from it. What do you think?
I’m trying very hard to keep this as respectful as possible. I’ve very saddened by some of the stories I’ve read on here. Though I do have a few questions as I’m reading through all the sadness and anger.
First, @ Bene D and all who share Bene D’s feelings about the page he posted… Is anything they said on that page inaccurate? I’m asking that legitimately. I haven’t been to TMM in a long time and haven’t been involved in any of this, so I would really like to get a more clear response about what is inaccurate about the following:
1. Many stories and claims publicized by the group are done so in anonymity, which makes it challenging to verify facts or engage in a resolution focused conversation.
2. Comments and statements made and allowed by this group have at many times been accusatory, sometimes mean-spirited, in nature and do not communicate a desire to “seek to understand” or to allow for rebuttal or disproof of information. Attempts to correspond in a polite and respectful manner have often lead to fruitless arguing on both sides.
3. One of the lead members of this group has communicated their desire is to bring down the Honor Academy and that nothing less will be satisfactory.
4. A member of this group is a self proclaimed atheist, which will make it challenging, possibly impossible, to fully agree on the standards and accountability required by Teen Mania, since the mission is unquestionably based on a statement of faith that is Christian.
Please let me know what in there is a lie. I would genuinely like to know. However, if that last point in particular is true, that would seem to be a particularly good point. One that would make reconciliation very difficult.
Speaking of reconciliation, I can’t help but thinking about Romans 12:18 (Christian or not it’s wise advice).
“If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.”
If TMM and HA aren’t doing this…shame on them.
With that said, my final thought is…are there any RAs who want to genuinely make peace with TMM & HA? Do you want to make things right? Have you tried? If so what have you done?
Has TMM and HA attempted to make peace with any of you? If so what did they do? If not, what will it take on TMM’s part to make peace and make things right?
Or is point 3 true…you just want to see them dead and buried…peace isn’t a goal or an option.
Respectfully wanting to know more. Please don’t yell at me. I just want to know more.
Hi Daniel – The answers to all your questions can be found in today’s post as well as this comprehensive look at my interaction with TM leadershiop: http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2010/11/teen-mania-and-recovering-alumni.html
@That redheaded one, What school do you go to?
You painting EVERYONE that “defends” TM as weak and susceptable to mind control is way over gernarlizing, lacking integrity and in your words lacking dignity.
I read over it…very interesting. I made a comment/question on that post too. However, that post still didn’t answer my initial inquiry. What about their 4 point response is not accurate? I’m trying to learn as much as I can and make up my own mind…sorry about all the questions.
I just read through a few of the posts I missed. I have to say April, with all do respect, I don’t recall learning any of that at TMM & HA when I was there. When I left I admittedly had a bit of a chip on my shoulder but the teachings you posted were never a part of my internship. Some of them the premise is almost right but the conclusions are very far from what I remember learning. What year were you there? I can imagine having different leaders over you can have a very strong impact and change things a lot.
@Daniel
For evidence regarding @April’s 4th point check out the following link:
http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2011/01/dave-hasz-said-what.html
This is consistent with what DH taught when I knew him, which happens to be before he joined TM. This doctrine is not Biblical, and I can attest to have experienced the destruction that is ultimately brought about by this false teaching in my own life.
Dan, I absolutely came away from our year there with some of those teachings. The women ones I think were from women-only stuff… Must wear makeup? Check. Premarital sex means your marriage is doomed? Check. Quite frankly, I think there was WAY too much emphasis (our year at least, I can’t speak for any other year) put on women to look nice, on our appearance. I was actually told that I needed to start wearing makeup and spending time doing my hair because I needed to be doing my best to look good for God or something like that. I was made to feel like if I didn’t participate in Women At The Well, I was setting myself up for failure (I doubt that was the intention of the people who pressured me but still). I was confronted for giving the impression that I had a sunflower for a guy friend because I hung out with him a lot. I was horrified and refused to even LOOK his direction, and would hardly speak to any guys, for a couple of weeks. Looking back, there was definitely stuff that should have raised my eyebrows, but a lot of the woman-specific stuff was in Synergy, Advisor Meetings, etc., so y’all wouldn’t have necessarily been around for it or known about it.
I definitely did not come away with nearly the wounds that a lot of people did. I was pretty lucky in that the hurts I experienced werent as life altering as some of the stuff other RA’s have dealt with, but it still hurt none the less and still does. Most of my stuff wasn’t so much staff doing specific things as the result of the culture.
@ IWantToBeAClone Having a spirit of repentance is a very biblical thing. I didn’t see him say we are earning our way to heaven. That’s not what he said. He’s referring to what Dietrich Bonhoeffer calls “cheap grace” vs “costly grace.” In case you don’t know, Bonhoeffer was a Lutheran minister in Germany during WWII who opposed Nazism…he died in a concentration camp. Read his book “The Cost of Discipleship” to get a better grasp on what “cheap grace” is all about. And then what “costly grace looks like. American Christianity is riddled with so much “cheap grace.” It’s very sad. Doesn’t mean they aren’t going to heaven. That’s not our call. It does mean they are missing the point of the grace that’s been extended to them by God…and that’s a sad thing indeed.
I’m sorry to hear that Esther.
@Daniel
I don’t take issue with being sensitive to the Holy Spirit and being willing to repent. The problem I have with the quote below is that DH claims forgiveness is dependent on our actions. Again, this false claim is consistent with the teaching I have heard from DH repeatedly.
“Remember it is when you are repentant and living whole heartedly, this is when you are forgiven your sins by God, so remain whole hearted and broken before Him.”
Ester, I was an intern January 2001 – 2002 and can agree with your statements. We had the same teachings as far as the “women’s ministry” is concerned.
I think it’s interesting that many of the female alumni that I know claim to have had a dramatically different experience at the HA than the men during the same intern year.
We (women) were treated differently. If you stepped outside of the perfect female mold, you were looked down on and asked to change. If you received too much attention from a guy or a group of guys, you were to blame for that. You were also accountable for the “unclean” thoughts of the guys on campus, usually because of your actions or your choice of clothing or your interactions with the other women on campus, but sometimes simply because you were pretty. Women were often treated like children at the HA.
We are not children and we are not less than men. It took me a long time to get past those feelings of inferiority after leaving Garden Valley, feelings that were a direct result of my time as an intern and Staff Associate.
Exactly Layne. I expressed a lot of intimate details of being neglected, including not being permitted to use the facilities during Gauntlet when I had my period and the humiliating consequences.
Heath apologized that my experience made me FEEL like I was not valuable and likened it to when he was called a liar at the end of his intern year or was nearly BV’d on a GE trip.
What? A year of abuse, neglect and both physical and emotional hazing DO NOT exactly compare….
4. A member of this group is a self proclaimed atheist, which will make it challenging, possibly impossible, to fully agree on the standards and accountability required by Teen Mania, since the mission is unquestionably based on a statement of faith that is Christian.
-LOL In the REAL WORLD adults can and often do have productive dialogs with people that disagree with them or hold completely different belief systems (yes, even with atheists). Cult leaders hate talking to outsiders because their brainwashing techniques don’t work on the un-initiated. I find it funny that they claim because ONE person in the group claims not to believe in God, they absolutely can’t give the entire group any legitimacy (as if believing in God confers legitimacy haha). They must serve a cowardly and weak God if he cannot tolerate even the slightest criticism.
I don’t think it is wise to allow TM to frame the debate. Nobody needs to answer to the talking points on their web page. This seems to be an attempt for the abusers to abuse more. For people suffering PTSD, it’s a good idea to stay at a non contact status with your abusers.
Why is there a dialogue above concerning whether TM practices good or bad christianity? It’s as if the bible said being hit in the head with a baseball bat was being a good christian, so now just stand there and be hit in the head. The truth of the matter is, whether they practice good or bad theology, they abuse these teenagers. They use religion to accomplish this control and abuse.
I think the religion angle needs to be minimized in this story, because the real story is about cult abuse and recovery.
I highly recommend that everybody in this thread researches the entire 2,000 years of christianity, its different theological traditions, and the biblical manuscript tradition. Since the cult would not allow anybody to understand its historical context outside of their confines, you owe it to yourself to learn about the religion in its entire historicity.
For me the most important topic to research is the biblical tradition – the 10,000s of different manuscripts and translations. I recommend Bart Erhman for beginners, you can find his lectures on youtube.
If you are recovering from cult abuse, you deserve, if you’re ready, to read the entire history and get all the facts.
I also recommend for recovery a look into the cult of scientology and how they keep their worshipers in check. google project clam bake.
If this debate continues as to whether one christian is better than the next or one theology is right while the other is wrong, I believe those trying to overcome the abuse, will only be exposed to it more.
@Dan re: the atheist point:
Yes, it is true. THERE IS AN ATHEIST AMONG US! Haha!. But in all seriousness, this person was at one time a very devout christian and model intern and was so disheartened by the time with TM that she decided to leave the church and God altogether. I can say with certainty that she is not asking for unreasonable measures to be put in place to protect interns.
Furthermore, being an atheist should never disqualify a person from engaging in conversation with believers, even if they have opposing viewpoints. TM used the fact that there is ONE known atheist among us (who became so as a direct result of her time with TM) and instead of extending the all-inclusive love of God to her, they shut her out, belittled, ostracized, exiled and publicly disavowed her. Where is God in that? So, that’s my take on it. They should NEVER have put that in there and it only goes to prove how far removed the leadership is from it’s First Love. It actually sickens me.
Layne, exactly. You were there right before we were. In fact, I think you may have been on the MT while we were there? Or am I getting my GI’s confused?
I still to this day struggle with feeling guilty if I want to be friends with a guy, especially if he happens to be even remotely good looking. I had NEVER had that problem before. I grew up with a bunch of guys and was always just comfortable around them. But suddenly, it’s like there’s this magic number on how much time you can spend with a guy before it becomes a sign that you have romantic feelings. And yet to some extent, I felt like that was only applied to those interns who weren’t the super popular interns, which usually coincided with being a really good looking guy or girl. I also feel like it was applied one-sidedly. In my case, why was I the only one confronted (I am pretty stinking sure the guy wasn’t confronted but not going into the reasons why publicly)? I didn’t force the guy to spend time hanging out with me, I didn’t force him to be friends, why was I the one who “had a sunflower” and yet he was okay because he was “just friends”? Why was it always only the girls fault when there was a MUTUAL friendship?
As far as the appearance thing goes, I had short-ish hair. I liked to wear a bandana to keep it back because it drove me absolutely nuts to have it in my face while I was on the phones. I was told that I needed to stop wearing my bandana and start spending time doing my hair. This went along with being told that I needed to wear makeup. All because I needed to “do my best to look my best for God”.These days, I don’t usually do my hair or my makeup and many days I wear sweats, yoga pants, workout shorts, a tank top, a t-shirt, something of that sort. I’m positive that God doesn’t love me any less and that he’s not disappointed in me based on the fact that I don’t spend 30 minutes on my hair and makeup before I get my nose used as a chew toy for a 7 month old or have a 2 year old use me for a horsey, and I’m positive that he wouldn’t have loved me any less, nor would my performance as a GE caller have suffered, from me continuing to wear my bandana. And if anyone stumbled over my hair and makeup, that sounds like a problem with them, not me.
Dan, it’s ok. It certainly wasn’t any of the guy interns faults.
If I’m totally honest with myself, I never really was sure where I fit in. I felt like an oddball. I’m not sure I’ve ever really admitted that before.
Esther, I wish I could give you a hug. You were not the only intern with these feelings, as Layne as also said. Layne was actually one of the people who helped get me through that year and for a long time was the only person I felt I could talk to–yet I was so confused and manipulated that these issues were NOT things I discussed. I really regret that TM made countless other interns feel that we could not be HONEST at the HONOR Academy.
Thanks Shannon. Group hugs!
Yeah it really felt like other people’s perception of my performance and perfection was more important than being honest.
I agree Esther. I think that’s a problem with many, many Christian churches, and that we would have fewer “scandals” if we took transparency and grace seriously. TM has been allowed get into this perfection overdrive in a more hard-core way through the HA.
I watched the show. The part where Ringo said she only felt it was okay to enjoy her life as of recently made me LOL, literally. What a waste of ten years, Ringo!
Also, Soul Murder? OH EM GEE.
Your stories are valid, but you refuse to be healed. You continue to open up wounds and let them fester. This website offers no healing, only recurring reminders of the pain. There is a continuum of validation and plain old bitching. How much validation do you need?
You keep going back and asking for more, more validation, more recognition, more sob stories. When will it stop? When will your website actually offer help?
If it’s true that your journalists approach TM under false pretenses, then your side of the story is totally invalidated.
You lost.
I 100% agree with the previous comment about refusing to be healed. What a festering pool of victim-minded people! Grow up and move on with your lives! An organization does not have the power to steal your identity if you are planted in Christ. Turn your brains back on and look toward your futures. Nothing seems to be getting accomplished here except whining.
I guess I’m not worried what anonymous posters think. And I thought life was about Jesus and love, not winning or losing.
Additionally, we want to see the abuse end.
anon (5:06 PM) and (5:39 PM) – butthurt much? Maybe Jesus will heal it. Prepare your ……
Trolls be trollin’.
you said before that dave never actually said anything negative towards or about you, but you assumed he thought of you as the black sheep, & that he looked down on you. holding all that unforgiveness (about something that wasn’t even actually said) is clearly eating you up inside. just give it to God instead of mulling over it all constantly..
So do I have anybody out there that will take me up on this? What is Gods solution? How would love respond to both sides of the picture? What is Gods solution? How many of you truly are going to God with your heart wounds? What is Gods solution? This is becoming a bloody mess with no solution other then to rag on your experience! Do you people come against Porn and Masturbation and Adultery and Addiction and The Child sex traffic as much as you pour out your time and energies on this website? I would hope so because there is a lot of energy being spent on words filled with resentment not forgiveness. God Help Us! God save us from ourselves!
Wendy… As a Clinical counselor who has worked with many young people actually diagnosed with PTSD, I am disgusted by your comments. I am deeply saddened by you and your husband’s so called counseling session that I witnessed on the MSNBC special. In school the first thing they teach you is to not ask LEADING questions. You never took the time to actually discover what if any other issues these young people are or have faced other than TM. You are witnessing a symptom not the root cause! You and your husband need to ask yourself “are we a solution or problem”?
It is very clear that these young people need healing. They need to move on and live the lives that GOD has for them. Are they hurting yes, did they deserve it NO. But the question is how do we move on from here? Not trying to stir them up with salacious talk. The same goes for you Mica! I guess it’s true what they say, hurting people only hurt people, because they don’t know any better