Legalism has long been one of the greatest issues at the Honor Academy. One indicator of legalism is adding to the Bible. Do we believe that the Bible is sufficient instruction for us or do we add rules to follow, that Jesus never gave us, in an attempt to be even “holier” or more righteous? One of the alumni questions addressed this issue:
Alumni Question @ 35:55 – Why does the Honor Academy seem to believe that a more strict morality is needed than is Biblically mandated? (question continues…)
Dave Hasz Answer: 37:50 – I don’t think that the Honor Academy believes that there is a more strict morality needed than is Biblically mandated.
Now, let’s roll back the conversation and listen to Dave’s doublespeak on this issue:
@13:20 – When I first came to TM, and for the first year or two, we had a zero tolerance policy. If you violated a moral standard of the Honor Academy, i.e. if you kissed your girlfriend, you held hands, if you looked at pornography, if you sipped some alcohol, if you smoked a cigarette you were immediately dismissed from the Honor Academy, no questions asked…..Any young people that are having a challenge in their life that has resulted in a violation of the moral standards, we don’t want to shame them humiliate them, we want to help them.
Although the behaviors in question are not called sins in the Bible, Dave equates the rules of the HA to “moral standards.” In the Honor Council training video, a staff member says that when an intern violates the rules and appears before the Honor Council it is because they have “sinned against God.”
Now, I have absolutely no problems with establishing particular rules for a program or the safety of a campus. However, these rules should NEVER be equated with moral standards. Only God has the right to decide what a sin is. We can’t just make a rule up and tell someone if they break it that they are sinning. That’s called legalism, people. An excerpt from this post says it better than I do:
Let me say this plainly: It is a sin to impose on others any “spiritual” standard that has no biblical basis. When God gave the law to Israel, He told them, “You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you” (Deuteronomy 4:2). And, “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it” (Deuteronomy 12:32).
The same principle is repeated in the New Testament. In 1 Corinthians 4, Paul was rebuking the Corinthians for their sectarianism, saying “I am of Paul”; “I am of Apollos,” and so on. His rebuke to them includes these words in 1 Corinthians 4:6: “I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written.”
That is a good guideline for how we should exercise our Christian liberty: Don’t go beyond what is written in Scripture. Don’t make rules to impose on others; don’t devise rituals and forms of worship that are not authorized; and don’t speak on such matters where God has been silent. That’s the whole principle of Sola Scriptura applied to Christian living. If we really believe Scripture is a sufficient rule for the Christian life, then we don’t have to add anything to it.
(FYI – I’m not generally a big fan of the blog I just linked to, so don’t take it as an endorsement. But on this topic, I couldn’t agree more.)
68 comments:
Justj33says:July 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM
so i understand this better. so if you summit yourself to someone’s authority for whatever reason(i:e boss at work, pastor, intership…) it is not a sin to break the rules given to you by that authority?
moriahsays:July 12, 2010 at 9:02 AM
this is where these discussions potentially lose their relevance for me.
tackling the issue of morality and interpretation of morality via the Bible feels like a huge can of worms.
Maybe its because I do not interpret the Bible literally, nor do I attribute its writing to God. In many ways, this makes me ineligible to participate in this discussion, and maybe it is better to let those of you who have a more traditional conservative perspective of the bible carry this discussion.
However, with that in mind, I would like to contribute by mentioning how upsetting it is to see religious leaders use their interpretation of the Bible as a way of asserting dominance and authority over groups of well meaning, truth seeking people. This has happened over and over throughout history. Dave Hasz is no exception to this list. While his version of this might be a milder, less obvious version than someone like Jim Jones, it is still in the same vein and is still upsetting. It is still abusive and it is still wrong.
Justj33 – Correct. Only God can determine what sin is. If I’m your authority and I tell you that its wrong to use blue toothbrushes…and you use one anyway – have you sinned?
No.
If I’m your authority and I tell you its wrong to rob a bank…and you rob a bank, have you sinned?
Yes.
Human authority can’t determine sin. That is the mistake the Pharisees made. Hope that helps!
@Justj33–See Acts 5:29–“We must obey God rather than men!” It is not rebellion but obedience to regard human authority and rules as inferior to God’s.
If someone says “Obey my rules or you’re sinning against God,” that is the classic sign of spiritual abuse. Compare Matthew 20:25-28. Jesus says that godly leaders do not “exercise authority” (!) but “must be your servant.”
Corkysays:July 12, 2010 at 11:22 AM
Why would you sign up for a program that has structure and policies and then not follow their rules?
Isn’t that the spirit of rebellion?
(just a question)
Corky – I think you are missing the point here….are you saying that if someone signs up to follow the rules, then my post doesn’t apply?
i.e. – If someone willingly subjects themselves to abuse, then the abuse is okay?
I think the real point of this post is not rebellion against rules, but rather the attitude displayed in enforcing said rules, and acting as though those rules are God-breathed when they are clearly not addressed in scripture. RA is making a clear distinction between biblical mandate and TM’s far more rigid “moral standard”.
We should be on guard against sin and fighting against our fallen nature at all times of course, but the bible says that if we fall, that there’s grace; that Christ has covered our sins and given us freedom to confess, repent and turn from sin.
The HA fosters a “zero tolerance” policy on several behaviors that in and of themselves are not sinful. When I was in Garden Valley I found it decidedly discouraging to live in this oppressive atmosphere, constantly nervous that I would inadvertently break one of TM’s precious tenets by talking to a girl I found attractive or watching a movie or playing a video game, cussing out of frustration, or any one of a million different infractions that are not touched upon anywhere in the bible. New interns don’t expect this level of constant pressure, and they shouldn’t. Not when true faith in the Lord is supposed to cultivate joy in our freedom.
There are infractions of the rules that are certainly worthy of expulsion, but when someone gets sent home (and consequently disowned by TM) for smoking a cigarette, what TM is telling that intern that his behavior is a violation of the “moral standards”. Who’s moral standards? Certainly not God’s or we would have clear instruction in the word against it.
TM adds to the bible, whether they realize it or not, by enforcing a standard that they, not God, have come up with and established as “moral”. This is pharisaical at best.
“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, ‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you— but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.'”
-Matthew 23:1-4
Josephinesays:July 12, 2010 at 12:24 PM
When I was at TM, their rules were designed to be practical, safety oriented and keep my focus on why I was there… to learn more about Jesus and to engage with His calling on my life.
This isn’t abusive. It is a HUGE change for most people, but it isn’t abusive. Are you saying that it is?
In the comment above, you said “i.e. – If someone willingly subjects themselves to abuse, then the abuse is okay?”
RA, your post seems to go so far as to say that rules don’t provide a moral standard – and that rules shouldn’t apply outside of what the Bible teaches.
Rules SET the moral standard for where you are… and refusal to follow that standard is a refusal to participate in the program. Rules will almost always venture outside of Biblical standards. I don’t let my children write on the wall. They have to wash their hands after using the bathroom. In my office, we are required to do our own dishes.
Unless the rules themselves are abusive (and I haven’t seen where they are yet), it isn’t abuse to insist that HA participants follow the rules. It also isn’t abuse to tell a participant that they didn’t follow the rules and may no longer participate in the program. It **would be** abusive to follow that with phases like:
*you’re a bad person
*you’ll never amount to anything
*I wish I’d never met you
*you are a failure
*I hope you amount to nothing.
*what a looser
I’m not seeing those things said. I’m seeing where people have SELF IMPOSED THAT AUDIO FEED IN THEIR HEAD… but not where someone from Teen Mania has actually called an intern a “looser” (except in context of esoal… which is another conversation altogether).
Unless I’m missing something big, it seems like you are saying that the rules at Teen Mania are abusive because they set a moral standard for everyone participating in the program (WHILE THEY ARE THERE).
The laws of our country set a moral standard for us. Outside of the Bible, our culture has decided that murder is wrong. Libel is wrong. Employers should have fair business practices. Consumers have rights. If I follow your logic, I am being abused by my government because they imposed a moral standard on me.
The blog you quote was written about legalistic standards being imposed on daily life – standards that say “you must do this or you aren’t a Christian”. You’ve taken that context (global, defining salvation) and applied it to the HA program (narrow in scope, limited time program, not defining of one’s salvation). Why?
I really hope that I missed the boat big time on what you intended to say. Please help me (us) understand more about where you’re coming from.
Josephine – To clarify – I’m saying its abusive when you equate man made rules with God’s rules. When you equate following man-made rules with a person’s spiritual worth or relationship with God, that is abusive. Perhaps you haven’t seen that happen at the HA. I have. So have many others.
In fact, you can see it in the Honor Council video when Randy O. equates breaking the HA rules with a sin against God. The 2 are NOT the same.
Make sense?
Josephinesays:July 12, 2010 at 12:30 PM
@Mike – Grace is… wow, do you remember the rules? Do you remember the consequences? Here’s some discipline to remind you not to do it again. Then, wow, you did it again, thanks for coming but you seem to have chosen not to participate in the program.
You live a life full of choices. You get to live a life full of the consequences of those choices (good and bad).
By participating in the program, the intern sent home for smoking AGREED not to smoke. Help me understand why that is unacceptable.
In our office, there is a no smoking policy in the building. If I have someone who repeatedly smokes inside, they are going to get a written warning. Do it again and they will get fired. Am I imposing a moral standard… heck yeah! Smoke where you want… but not while you are standing inside my building!
Josephine – the difference is, your job doesn’t tell you that you have disapointed God and that your smoking has affected your stand as a Christian. That is a HUGE difference.
Plus, your job isn’t supposed to treat you as Christ treats you.
@Corky– Actually, “Spirit of Rebellion” is another common spiritual abuse catchphrase. See some of these articles.
It’s widely used by abusive leaders to mean, “You’re not doing what I like, so I’m going to condemn you, spiritualize it with a Bible word, and make you think you’re not doing what God likes, thus subliminally equating myself with God!”
Note that in the Bible, whenever “rebellion” is described as a sin, it’s specifically rebellion against God. (The apostles and the early church had to disobey civil and religious authorities all the time.) This is an example of word-programming that spiritual abusers use to subconsciously set themselves and their rules up as equal to God– which, I might add, is the real act of rebellion!
Other relevant verses:
[Jesus] replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’
You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” (Mark 7:6-9)
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. (Colossians 2:8)
Josephinesays:July 12, 2010 at 12:40 PM
The “sin against God” is a refusal to submit to authority established in your life at that time. HA participants agreed to follow the rules. They agreed to abide by the authority structure at Teen Mania.
When they break those rules, they aren’t negating their relationship with God or becoming spiritually worthless (and I haven’t seen any claims of people actually being told these things). I’ve seen people claim that they FELT that way, but Teen Mania isn’t responsible for your inner voice telling you inner lies.
They are responsible if they taught you to believe lies about yourself though. Has that happened?
Josephinesays:July 12, 2010 at 12:44 PM
@Eric
See you’re taking the rules of the program outside of the CONTEXT of the program and applying them to global everyday life.
Is Teen Mania letting go of the commands of God and teaching interns to ONLY follow the HA rules after they leave the program? Is Teen Mania teaching interns that following the HA rules makes them a Christian?
Josephinesays:July 12, 2010 at 12:48 PM
@RA –
The HA program is a program… not that much different than having a job… and yes, they get to set rules for people participating in their program… just like a company gets to set rules for their employees.
Josephine,
I used to work with a Junior High Youth Program, it was a fun job. We had somewhere around 400 6-8th graders every week. Now, as a leader I probably could have gotten one of those 7th grade boys to make a commitment to me, to not do some sin or break a rule. Lets say the agreed upon consequence was that I could punch him in the face to remind him not to do it in the future. Now, when he broke the rule, am I justified in punching him? I think not.
Sure the HA is a program, and it’s voluntary. The problem is that it sets itself and it’s standards up as a path to higher knowledge and spiritual maturity. It seems to me that Jesus and Paul agree that extra-biblical moral standards do not assist in developing said maturity. By fostering a community that claims otherwise (even if it is for a short time) the leadership of the HA are trying to circumvent the natural maturing process of biblical study and active ministry.
The difference between your workplace/job and TM is that TM is an intensive spiritual environment that not only seeks to forbid certain actions in living with others (levels of cleanliness and smoking indoors), but also tries to regulate personal behaviors 24/7. That’s a much different issue than asking you to respect your co-workers and clean up after yourself.
Essentially, as long as the HA claims to be training people for effective Christian work, they should abide by the discernible biblical standards and nothing further.
Thoughts?
@Josephine– Again, I’m concerned that you can’t seem to see the difference between authority and authoritarianism.
To call a human rule a “moral standard” is undisguised legalism: only God can make moral standards. Legalism is legalism in any context and in any program, even if you sign up for it yourself.
The evidence here shows that Dave Hasz and his followers present their own rules (community standards or otherwise) as “moral standards” and say that to break those rules is “a sin against God.” If as you say they really mean that to rebel against their authority is to rebel against God’s authority–well, that’s even worse. It’s legalism and authoritarianism, whatever pious terms you wrap it in. Open and closed case; in fact, one of the finest examples I’ve ever seen.
“Jesus called them together and said, ‘You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant.'” (Matthew 20:25-26)
Justj33says:July 12, 2010 at 2:27 PM
it’s not the rules or morals of ha that is the problem. the Rules are structured to help “you” the intern have a better experience there.
the Problem is the consequences and how they go about administering these consequences.
RA this blog shouldn’t be on moral or rules it should be on how ha administers the consequences.
I find nothing wrong with rules that ha places on the interns. it’s the way the enforce them that bothers me.
JacklovesJillsays:July 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM
I too find this disturbing. HA does place rules that I am fine with their rules if you know them and agree to live by them. It is the students job to live by his/her word and agreement. It is HA’s job to stay doctrinally sound and be scripturally responsible with the students. When either side breaks their part I feel you should be able to leave not under condemnation. HA repeatedly portrays there “rules breakers” as “sin makers”. That is not scriptural or responsible. That is why there is an atmosphere of superiority and arogance as well as condemnation from students. It is unhealthy and unbalanced. I am forced to ask myself if kids are put into this program to “grow” how are they really doing it. IS it balanced? Doesn’t seem like it.
Chrissays:July 12, 2010 at 3:39 PM
I think this is a very interesting discussion. I think I agree with Josephine on this subject. I think in the instances where I have read of people being abused by TM then it is not ok but I don’t think it is spiritual abuse to send someone home from HA for not following the rules put in place. I distinctly remember Dave saying that these rules are in place for a year of your life and they are there so as to cut out distractions and help you focus on God for that year. I am not excusing those people that found this a good opportunity to excercise a power trip and abuse people but the rules are listed up front and if you don’t read them you certainly know them before the commitment banquet.
@Phil- Punching someone in the face does not = sending them home for breaking a rule.
I don’t think the premise is harmful. I think the poor application/execution has been harmful in some circumstances.
@RA- I have a question, are you saying that you don’t think they should have these rules in place or that they should make you feel ok when leaving if you broke the rule? Thanks for the clarification, i think this is a good discussion…
Chrissays:July 12, 2010 at 4:11 PM
I just wanted to respond in a little more detail to Phil’s statement because I don’t like the way my post sounded (a little condiscending which was not my goal).
@Phil- I think that if you did have a youth that was constantly disruptive (ie would not stop yelling during messages, attempting to distract other kids during worship) that you would sit them down and attempt to explain to them why what they were doing could not be done during your meetings. If they continued to exhibit this behavior you would eventually have to send them home. I don’t think that by doing this you would be excercising spirtual abuse. Now if you sent the kid home and told him that now that you sent him home he was never going to live up to what God had in store for him and he had effectively ruined his life, I think you would have crossed the line of spiritual abuse. I hope you see the distinction that I am making.
Fist of all, let me say that I come to this conversation as a model intern, a CA and elected to 2 terms on the Honor Council (back when the council only had like 10 people out of the entire internship.) So, I personally never had a problem following the rules. In fact, most of the rules were in place in my life both before and after the HA for many years.
Also, its important to note that its not necessarily that I have a problem with some of the rules. For example, I think the not dating for a year is probably a good idea in that context. However, its the way the rules are administered/enforced (as others have alluded to).
Josephine, you asked, “They are responsible if they taught you to believe lies about yourself though. Has that happened?”
Absolutely.
TM ROUTINELY ties your ability to follow their man-made rules with God’s approval of you and/or your spiritual “maturity.” Example: If you hit your snooze button, you lack integrity. That is taking a non-sinful behavior and making it a measure of your character and spirituality. That is absolutely un-Biblical. Its just a tool to manipulate and control the interns with fear and guilt.
Another example from GE. Ron Luce teaches the missionaries that if they don’t submit to their leaders with a positive attitude in every situation, that God’s power will not fall on their ministry and people will not get saved.
Do you see the condemnation this brings in people’s lives?? People didn’t get saved, so maybe it was because I said a smart comment under my breath. Now they are going to hell and its my fault..I was exhausted b/c of TM’s ridiculous schedule so I hit the snooze button, now I feel bad about myself. Why can’t I have integrity?
I guarantee you people have thought those things directly b/c of the teaching at TM. I’m sure we could come up with other examples.
In addition, I don’t know of anyone in my own personal experience nor who have written me who were dismissed with love and grace and who felt no condemnation when leaving. I can certainly attest that I looked down on everyone who quit or was dismissed as not a good enough Christian.
In What’s So Amazing About Grace, Philip Yancey describes going to a legalistic fundamentalist Bible college that had more than a little in common with Honor Academy (“like a spiritual West Point Academy… if you didn’t like it, go somewhere else.”) He realized that, although the rules against drinking and dancing and smoking probably kept him out of some trouble, the problem was that they “tried to ground these rules in biblical principles,” made to be a part of the gospel when really they weren’t.
That’s the setup, here’s the quote:
In short, I have little resentment against these particular rules but much resentment against the way they were presented.
He adds:
Legalism may “work” in an institution such as a Bible college or the Marine Corps. In a world of ungrace, structured shame has considerable power. But there is a cost, an incalculable cost: ungrace does not work in a relationship with God. I have come to see legalism in its pursuit of false purity as an elaborate system of grace avoidance. You can know the law by heart without knowing the heart of it.
(If you have a copy of this book, go get it right now and read the chapter “Grace Avoidance”– it will benefit you considerably. If you don’t have a copy of this book, go buy one.)
Chrissays:July 12, 2010 at 4:53 PM
RA- I agree with you the majority of the time but I am not sure about the example that you used with hitting the snooze button. I always equated that with choosing sleeping over spending time with Jesus. I think that the point that was being made is in order to obtain spiritual growth we really need to be spending time in the Word and in prayer. I think we would all agree that a healthy quiet time would be one (not the only one though)sign of spiritual growth. Thoughts?
Josiesays:July 12, 2010 at 6:17 PM
I think you guys are missing the point of what RA is saying in THIS post. At least… from my interpretation. This post isn’t so much about what the rules are or that HA has so many of them or whether people should be sent home for breaking them. This post is about the fact that HA takes their “extra-curricular” (if you will) rules and groups them in with biblically identified standards, when really they might just be good ideas. And they might just be good ideas for a time. And they might actually not be good ideas at all.
Sure breaking your word (you knew the rules, you agreed to the rules, you broke the rules) is an issue, but it’s a separate issue from what is being discussed here. Is this true RA? Or am I missing the point?
Josephinesays:July 12, 2010 at 6:57 PM
@Phil Boltz
Thanks for your reply. This is what you said:
—-
The difference between your workplace/job and TM is that TM is an intensive spiritual environment that not only seeks to forbid certain actions in living with others (levels of cleanliness and smoking indoors), but also tries to regulate personal behaviors 24/7. That’s a much different issue than asking you to respect your co-workers and clean up after yourself.
—
My response from a purely practical perspective (as a business person):
Is it so different? When you are dealing with a class of several hundred mostly eighteen-year-olds, you need rules. They are going to be extra-Biblical. They are going to involve details like “make your bed”, “do your laundry”, “don’t swear”, “be kind to Susie”, “resolve conflict in this manner: “, “no sex”, “no drugs”, “no boyfriends/girlfriends”, “no secular music”… etc.
It would be utterly impossible (chaos really) to have a group of people that age in one place for an entire year without rules about their behavior.
Most eighteen-year-olds don’t have the maturity or life skills to come to reasonable behavior conclusions on their own, so those fences need to built so life skills can be taught.
Now imagine yourself in charge of a group of unfettered 18-year-olds. Frankly, I’d quit in an hour. Without a rule, who says that Matilda can’t wear a shirt that says F*** you on it because she is grumpy? Or that her friend Jim shouldn’t blare inappropriate lyrics out the window while leering at the girls? Or that your roommate shouldn’t bring girls into the room while you are getting dressed?
There are unplanned pregnancies now… What happens when every 18-year-old boy can have a girlfriend and go be alone with her anytime he wants?
Let’s say that your bed doesn’t have to be made and your laundry done… your clothes clean and your room picked up. What are the dorms going to look like?
Take the dress code off the table. Now you have people coming to work dressed in their pajamas, looking like they just rolled out of bed, guys showing up to work with their underwear on display or women coming to work dressed with necklines down to their naval and skirts that show booties. What does that do to work ethic? For you, maybe nothing. For most others, it has a huge effect on what they can get accomplished in a day.
Now let’s say you can listen to any non-Christian music you want to. Now you have a room blasting gangster rap with terribly offensive lyrics involving violence against women. Who makes the judgement call that the music is inappropriate?
When rules are made, it is because someone found an inappropriate extreme, violated it and made it necessary to publish a guidelines that affects everyone.
You said:
—
Sure the HA is a program, and it’s voluntary. The problem is that it sets itself and it’s standards up as a path to higher knowledge and spiritual maturity.
—
Unfortunately, the reality of life is that people DO look at what you do and make their judgements about your maturity level based on that. I will be perceived as more mature if I have a quiet time every morning, learn to keep myself clean and presentable, am physically fit, able to deny my immediate impulses, think carefully before making big decisions, speak honestly, am truthful, reliable and able to mentally withstand the daily pressures of life.
Perceptions are reality to the people around you. God looks on your heart – but man can only see the outside.
I’m going to revisit my point above about the maturity level of an incoming program participant. Imagine the variety of people the staff has to work with. Some were taught all of these skills by their parents. Others learned NOTHING at home.
Josephinesays:July 12, 2010 at 6:58 PM
@RA – your example of hitting the snooze button demonstrates my point in this quote from earlier:
—-
When they break those rules, they aren’t negating their relationship with God or becoming spiritually worthless (and I haven’t seen any claims of people actually being told these things). I’ve seen people claim that they FELT that way, but Teen Mania isn’t responsible for your inner voice telling you inner lies.
—-
If TM tells you that you lack integrity for hitting the snooze button when you should be up having a quiet time… and you are on their clock… participating in their program… and they said that quiet time was at 6am… they are right. Integrity is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. You didn’t do the right thing, therefore, yes, indeed, you lacked integrity in that moment. Why is that so devastating to hear? It doesn’t mean you lack integrity FOREVER. It doesn’t mean that you are a bad person. All you have to do is listen, receive correction, process, make changes and do better next time.
Another quote from @RA:
—-
Ron Luce teaches the missionaries that if they don’t submit to their leaders with a positive attitude in every situation, that God’s power will not fall on their ministry and people will not get saved.
—-
Did Ron say exactly that? I remember something along those lines… but what he said when I heard it went something like this:
Does God bless rebellion? Not based on Scripture. Does God bless obedience. Absolutely. Is it fair to compare salvations during ministry with attitude of the missionary? Maybe. The question should at least be posed.
Personal anecdote: We’ve seen God provide for us in dramatic ways, over and over and over again. Every time we are in a situation where we are lacking, we step back, examine our hearts, figure out where we should have done something different, make a correction and move forward in faith. God *always* comes through. Always.
There is plenty of Scripture to back up this teaching. Here’s my favorite from David:
Psalm 1:1-3
1 Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
****or sit in the seat of mockers. **** [emphasis mine]
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
and on his law he meditates day and night.
3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither.
***Whatever he does prospers.*** [emphasis mine]
If you are mocking, you might not be blessed. [ouch]
Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you.
If you aren’t seeking first the kingdom of God, then perhaps all these things won’t be added unto you?
Running the race with perseverance that you will reach the goal…
If you don’t run the race with perseverance, are you going to reach the goal?
I’m getting tired and not looking up references… but it’s all there and it’s all good. Many, many scriptures tie a blessing to a behavior. And the opposite.
Here is another one about submission:
Eph 5:21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Another one about attitudes at work:
Eph 6:5-8 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.
Josephinesays:July 12, 2010 at 7:21 PM
@Eric P –
You’ve completely misunderstood what I was saying. I’m sorry if I miscommunicated somehow.
From Google:
Authoritarianism: A form of government in which the governing body has absolute, or almost absolute, control.
Authority: (usually plural) persons who exercise (administrative) control over others; “the authorities have issued a curfew”
We are talking about the latter, not the former.
A human rule is not the same as God’s standard. I didn’t say that. However, every part of your life has some kind of a moral standard applied to it. You aren’t going to show up to work dressed inappropriately because someone told you that it was wrong to do that. You don’t show up to church and quack like a duck while your pastor is preaching. Someone taught you that being rude in church is inappropriate. You try not to cut people off in traffic because it’s rude. All of these are moral standards imposed by a society or an environment…
From Wikipedia:
Legalism, in Christian theology, is a sometimes-pejorative term referring to an over-emphasis on discipline of conduct, or legal ideas, usually implying an allegation of misguided rigour, pride, superficiality, the neglect of mercy, and ignorance of the grace of God or emphasizing the letter of law over the spirit. Legalism is alleged against any view that obedience to law, not faith in God’s grace, is the pre-eminent principle of redemption. Its opposite is antinomianism, which is the alleged view that believing in Jesus Christ is the only requirement for receiving eternal life.
Insisting that the rules are followed does not equal legalism. Legalism is a fine line that gets crossed somewhere between application, intent and follow-through…. and the lines being crossed within the stories published on this blog are not fine lines… they are quite darkly painted lines in the sand.
Theological legalism teaches “YOU AREN’T A CHRISTIAN IF YOU DON’T DO THIS LIST OF THINGS”. Teen Mania isn’t teaching that. They are teaching that you have to follow the rules to remain in good standing as an intern. It’s been a number of years since I was there, but I see a progression TOWARDS grace – not away from it. Today, they have a disciplinary process designed to get you through the program. When I was there, anyone involved in a romantic relationship got sent home. That night. No probation. Just bye-bye. The current situation is an application of grace. Do you expect them to remove all discipline? Do you expect them to remove all enforcement of the rules? If so, how would you suggest they enforce the rules?
Finally, let’s talk about grace. We all screw up. If it wasn’t for grace, we’d all be headed straight to hell. However, even a liberal application of grace isn’t a free pass to ignore the rules in a given life situation. Yancy didn’t take it to an extreme. Instead, he agreed with what Paul wrote about this in Romans.
I’d love to keep writing. This is a subject that is clearly near and dear to my heart, but I actually have to be done tonight…
Josephine – I think there are a number of fundamental things we disagree on…Probably the biggest is the definition of legalism. Its not ONLY about salvation (as you defined it) its also about growth in the Christian life. Read Eric P.’s comments above.
I don’t know how to say anything different than what I already said. I’m not against rules to maintain structure. I am against man-made rules equated with God’s moral standard. Every time. Everywhere. And if you insist that your man-made rules are God’s rules just b/c you are an authority figure, then that is authoritarianism. We don’t owe any person absolute submission or obedience. Those belong only to God. Probably another point where we will have to agree to disagree….
A question that might shed light on things a bit more…when you were at the internship, did you look down on people who didn’t have their quiet times regularly or broke other rules? If so, that is an outward symbol of legalism. We are to judge no man after the flesh, but see all in Christ.
Chris – re: the snooze button – who said you have to have a quiet time in the morning? Also, with the pace at the internship, I think Jesus wants you to have a well rested body. Its his temple, after all. 🙂
Josie – Yep, you got it.
Josephine –
It’s very different. On principle, I can’t really agree that 18 yr olds will inevitably bring about The Lord of the Flies Scenarios, but I’ll take your point.
The issue you bring up forgets that we already have very useful and appropriate biblical guidelines for behavior in Christian community. I try to live in such a community and have for just over 8 years. For six of those years I lived with mostly college students endeavoring to walk out their faith in a Biblical way. We certainly had house commitments and social guidelines; however, we were very careful on making sure our guidelines never went beyond scripture and that we weren’t bringing church discipline to bear on issues that are not addressed in scripture. This takes care of a whole host of behaviors that you describe.
Frankly, Jim and Matilda can do what they want. After living on OSU campus for nearly 6 years, I haven’t seen many students wearing swear words on their shirts or really blasting the music. There’s something to be said that in the real world the behaviors you describe aren’t hindering that many people. People seem to be getting along without the social engineering.
It sounds very much like you’re afraid. Afraid of what will happen. This motivation doesn’t come from a position of Grace. It seems like a position that wants to prevent people from sinning. It is not the role of the church to prevent sin by regulation. You don’t build change into people, God changes them from the inside out. In the extreme examples, roomates who won’t bathe or pay rent, sexual predators, and true nudists, we are permitted to approach and confront in truth and love. So why do we need extra rules to prevent us from breaking the real rules?
——–
Addressing social judgments and perceptions.
When did Jesus consider social expectations and adjust to make everyone happy? When did Paul or John the Baptist adapt to please the pharisees? That’s what we’re doing when we let conservative religious-esque Americana determine social values.
I don’t think it matters if you have an hour long quiet time or not, the question is if you are doing God’s work and if you have a changed heart. If that comes from quiet times fine, but if not who cares?
TempAnonsays:July 12, 2010 at 8:26 PM
Josephine — You asked if Ron actually says that. I can vouch for the fact that he says that. I have a recording of one of his training sessions from a missions trip, and he says it pretty much directly as RA stated it. I’d need to track down the recording and get it transferred to my computer for you to hear it, but it’s what he said.
I agree with what RA, Eric and Phil have been saying.
When I was an intern and made to feel like I was “as passionate about God as I could be” (direct quote from one of my CAs) because I didn’t have a QT at 6am, but chose to have it later in the day when I was more alert.
I followed the majority of the rules and didn’t have a problem with most of them at the time. The problem was that after the internship I felt condemned if I didn’t measure up to the same standards that were at the HA. I wrote about it in the forums. Reading my journals and I am always apologizing and repenting for forgetting to have a specified and organized QT.
Yes, the rule was that the QT was supposed to be in the AM. Yes, I didn’t follow that rule. BUT, God didn’t love me any less or think any less of me because of it. I was made to feel as though I wasn’t approved by God because I didn’t follow that standard though.
Josephinesays:July 12, 2010 at 10:14 PM
@RA – No. I was actually the one being judged for not having my quiet time. I’m glad that we all get a chance to grow up.
@Phil Boltz – I’m glad you are in a community where it works.
Josephine – then you experienced the effects of legalism firsthand. Its not fun.
Carrie Saumsays:July 13, 2010 at 1:39 AM
God’s judgment is Mercy. His justice is Forgiveness.
You know what happened when an entire nation failed to live up to God’s rules (as well as several of their own that they made up, just to be “extra” holy)? He gave them Jesus. And I’m pretty sure Jesus broke the rules. (I mean, really, who did He think He was, healing on the Sabbath and eating with unclean people and eating unclean food?!?!) Because God is not concerned about our ability to follow rules. He is concerned with our Love. For Him. For each other. For ourselves.
Situation appropriate rules within a program like the HA, when administered with Love and a clear understanding that we will ALL inevitably fail at some point with at least SOME of the rules, are fine. I think they are mostly great and are a good idea for that year. But when you say that “flirting is a form of witchcraft” and “you have to return your ring if you are not living in Integrity, or have habitual sin in your life, even after you have graduated”, these are not appropriate guidelines.
We don’t answer to Dave Hasz about our “integrity”. We answer to God. Maybe to a small, trusted group of like-minded believers. But to say you are out of integrity (which is code for “sinning”), and then punish YOURSELF and call it Discipline (by giving back your honor ring), and then to stipulate that you can earn your integrity back (i.e. stop sinning) through behavior modification, is just wrong. Changing behavior because of love and gentle understanding is life-transforming and sustainable, though.
We all make mistakes. And yes, we live with the consequences. The consequence with Jesus, every time, in every situation, is Mercy and Forgiveness. It is the depiction of Love. To remove that fundamental truth and necessary practice from the day-to-day administration of the HA’s guidelines is nothing short of heretical.
Picture Perfectsays:July 13, 2010 at 8:39 AM
This has been an interesting conversation.
I was driving this morning (because I drive sometimes during my “quiet times”) and stopped to walk the dog. Then I found a bench and talked to God a bit.
QT for me is different everyday.
I remember being at the HA and getting so stale in my QTs because it was the same routine everyday. So I started doing it at night time. Then I’d skip lunch to have them.Really I just talked to GOd all day long and when I felt in my heart I needed to chat with Him, I’d make some time. When I was confronted on not having a QT I tried to explain this but it was frowned upon. LEGALISM.
God is so many relationships to us: Father, Friend, Lover…
It would be hard to develop each side of my relationship with Him if I didn’t try something new every once and again. (I’m not saying every morning at 6 is not great time with God. I’m just pointing out that some of us have personalities, and lifestyles, callings that make our QTs and communication with God “look” different than what was required at the HA.
Now… That’s not my point. I just had to lay some ground work first.
My Hubby and I communicate with each other everyday. We make it a point to connect and make sure we are on the same page before we go to bed. Sometimes we talk. Sometimes we walk and get quiet. Sometimes we stay up for hours at night. Sometimes we get up early in the morning.
Yet, it doesn’t matter what time it is or how long we talk. We don’t have to set a timer. And the cool thing is we do this because we have a relationship together. Even better, nobody is evaluating us on our time spent together as to how well we know each other.
I understand that TM puts these rules in place for just a short time. However, a year of doing something because it is a rule to follow (made by leadership) can create a habit of following what that leadership led to do and not what God is leading us to do.
I think it would be a better idea if they would explain the importance of QTs but leave it in the hands of the intern to have those QTs. After all, it is their relationship with GOD not the HA’s. If the HA really wants to prepare these interns to be “world changers” then I believe it would be a good idea to teach them how to do things when faced with the world (using their gifts and abilities and personalities, Callings in the World for GOD). Not just the “World of Teen Mania.”
I remember coming out being about to talk like ROn, Walk like MR. Hasz, … But I don’t remember knowing what to do with my own calling and abilities.
Does that make sense?
Picture Perfectsays:July 13, 2010 at 8:40 AM
I really did some rambling. Please excuse me for typing so much. I didn’t realize it was that long.
Anonymoussays:July 13, 2010 at 8:57 AM
NO SCRIPTURES ON THESE SINS – YOU CAN’T BE SERIOUS.
Wine is a mocker – doesn’t say how much
Look at a woman – you commit adultery in your heart
Smoking – your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost
Body piercings were a sign of slavery in OT times.
Even if you didn’t take into account the scriptures, the standard for the program was set in place before you signed up.
Too bad you don’t like it in retrospect, but you knew what you were signing up for when you went in.
It is TM program and they can set whatever standard they like on it. If you didn’t want to give it a shot, you had a chance to leave.
Don’t cry over spilled milk and if you spill it, don’t use it as a life long crutch.
Anonymoussays:July 13, 2010 at 9:16 AM
Anon 8:57 – I like that when you use verses out of context that you leave out the references…it illustrates that you don’t seem to care about the versus or situations surrounding the passages…only that you want to use the Bible to say what you already believe.
But to respond in kind (that is, to be very limited in scope of meaning or application) Wine being a Mocker doesn’t neccesarily say that it’s wrong to drink. Smoking was never mentioned in the Bible, and we are slaves to righteousness are we not?
See, it’s silly to use methods like universal totalitarian transfer to prove points that can be made otherwise and more intelligently.
Did people know what they were getting into? Really? I think there’s a promise on the other side of the commitments made at the banquet. There is a commitment made by DH and HA leadership that they will lead faithfully, that the things they ask of you will be worthwhile and helpful. I believe they commit to teach and educate with interests of you the believer and God’s mission in their heart. What I accuse the HA of doing is failing in this regard.
@Josephine: On rule enforcement and legalism and authority, I don’t see a need to re-say what I’ve already said, and RA summed it up very neatly above at 7:27.
However, a couple of points from your comments show exactly why this style of rules-based leadership worries me:
> “Unfortunately, the reality of life is that people DO look at what you do and make their judgements about your maturity level based on that…. Perceptions are reality to the people around you.”
Jesus hung out with prostitutes, tax collecters, lepers, and adulterers. Jesus talked with a woman of questionable reputation by Himself, all alone. Jesus associated with (gasp) Samaritans. These were all blatantly contrary to society’s perceptions of what a mature or godly man should do. Indeed, Jesus was perceived as sinful and even demonic by religious people of His day.
This brings us back to the opening question: “Why does the Honor Academy seem to believe that a more strict morality is needed than is Biblically mandated?” If Jesus Himself wasn’t concerned whether people perceived Him as “holy” by their standards, why should I be?
> “If TM tells you that you lack integrity for hitting the snooze button when you should be up having a quiet time… and you are on their clock… participating in their program… and they said that quiet time was at 6am… they are right. Integrity is doing the right thing when nobody is looking.“
Wait– what happened to people’s perceptions? Why is TM telling making rules about things they supposedly aren’t looking at? Don’t you see the Doublethink here? It’s “only about appearances,” but really it’s about your heart. I can only say it so many times: Lee. Gal. Ism.
Paul sums it up perfectly:
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? (Galatians 3:1-5 NIV)
If you are saved by grace instead of rules, then you must live by grace instead of rules. “Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him” (Colossians 2:6).
picture perfect – that wasn’t too long at all, great comments. thank you for sharing. 🙂
Anon @ 8:57– You just broke the Bible’s rules against arrogance, pride, judgmentalism, condescension, self-righteousness… and not adding to what God has written.
Q. E. D.
Seriously, how did anybody ever get from “Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit” to “Don’t smoke”? Talk about things that aren’t present in the text!
Nunquam Honorablussays:July 13, 2010 at 9:59 AM
Especially since, you know, didn’t John (or somebody?) walk into the Temple of the Lord and… see… smoke…?
DUN DUN DUUUUNNN
I like browniessays:July 13, 2010 at 11:12 AM
@ Anon 8:57AM
Here’s a good one for you. Luke 7:33-34 (New Century Version)
“John the Baptist came and did not eat bread or drink wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon in him.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! He eats too much and drinks too much wine, and he is a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’”
John the Baptist was condemned for abstaining from everything, and Jesus was condemned for NOT abstaining. Wouldn’t you think that this shows that our righteousness is not found in these things? Not to mention, Jesus DRANK WINE! The Pharisees called Him a WINE BIBBLER or a DRUNKARD (from different versions of the text).
1 Peter 1:13-16 Says to be self-controlled, obedient, not conformed to former evil desires, and holy. The HA has set up some neat little rules to make interns appear holy. However, those things that we are commanded to do in scripture are to be done because we are motivated by love for God and for His people. God is more concerned with our hearts, not with whether we were able to check off all the requirements on our accountability card. What is the point of appearing to be righteous and holy, while inwardly being hardened, unchanged, and filthy? The HA definitely has things backwards in this respect. God desires truth in our innermost parts (as David so profoundly put it in Psalm 51). Then the outside acts will flow from our inward desire to serve Him. Luke 6:45 says “…For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks”.
Truth be told, the HA takes the easy approach by allowing interns to believe that these rules and checklists makes them clean.
“Truth be told, the HA takes the easy approach by allowing interns to believe that these rules and checklists makes them clean.”
BOOM.
Along these lines, I would also argue that TM actually doesn’t take sin seriously enough.
Anonymoussays:July 13, 2010 at 8:04 PM
@Eric P. You’re missing the forest for the trees.
Anonymoussays:July 14, 2010 at 8:07 AM
No verses were taken out of context. . .
If your body dies the spirit moves to it’s eternal destination. If you kill the body by cancer, toxins, or obesity your spirit moves on.
How is that out of context. ((((oh because it doesn’t line up with your opinion, got it))))
Anonymoussays:July 14, 2010 at 8:11 AM
July 13, 2010 11:12 AM
Wow, so you are coming down on TM for promoting morality and clean living?
You knew what you were signing up for. I don’t think it anywhere fair to say they don’t take sin seriously.
Sin kills, robs, destroys lives. If they had horny teenagers running around making out all over the place what good would that do.
If they were piercing each other, smoking and drinking together, what type of message would that send.
Anonymoussays:July 14, 2010 at 8:18 AM
I am free to smoke,
I am free to drink,
I am free to live for me,
I am free, I am free
Jesus does care how you live.
Without holiness no man can see God.
Anon@8:04ff– The trees you’re missing are the logs in your own eye.
Here’s what Jesus says about some people who valued “morality and clean living,” in context.
Anonymoussays:July 14, 2010 at 8:52 AM
Eric P.
If Jesus didn’t value morality and clean living, then why did he bother to live a perfect life.
To be a perfect sacrifice only? ? ?
To be an example of how to live? ? ?
Anonymoussays:July 14, 2010 at 8:53 AM
Jesus summed it up by saying they say with their mouth but they don’t do with their deeds.
Jesus wasn’t condemning clean living or holiness.
Anon: The answers are all in Galatians.
If our clean living was so necessary, why did Jesus have to die for us? Maybe because “All our righteousness is as filthy rags” and “By the works of the law no man is justified.”
You are preaching Works. That’s not the Gospel. I’m very sorry that you can’t see this. I have nothing more to say beyond that.
Anonymoussays:July 14, 2010 at 9:26 AM
We have a part to play in this. Sanctification, renew the mind, holiness, and faith without works is dead.
I realize we are SAVED by GRACE. We can’t work or earn salvation.
But our works and lifestyle are what promote the gospel of Jesus Christ. By the blood of the Lamb and our Testimony.
If our testimony is we said a prayer and the rest depends on Jesus what has changed.
If our lives are a book read of all men, then there should be evidence of change and Godliness.
It sounds like you believe in a J.C.L.D.S. system where predestination is in play. It doesn’t matter what we do or say. God predetermined who goes and who stays.
Come on man. . . that is sloppy grace teaching that has destroyed Christians across this country.
Titus 2:11-14 (New International Version)
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
DUDE – what do you do with this passage.
Anonymoussays:July 14, 2010 at 9:40 AM
Eric P.
Titus 2:11-14 (New International Version)
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Titus 2:11-14 (New King James Version)
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
Titus 2:11-14 (King James Version)
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
The sloppy grace teaching has hurt the church very badly.
The message to live and talk the way you want because you have grace, has caused people to slip into blindness, as to what the scriptures say is our responsibility.
There are some ouchy words in these verses.
Soberly, Purify, self control, good works.
They can’t be dismissed or discredited.
What do you do with these verses?
I read them and see that they say “The Grace of God… teaches us to say no to ungodliness,” and so I see that the Bible says you are wrong when you suggest that any laws or rules can teach us to do that. Just as I have been trying to say, we are sanctified by God’s grace alone!
Now, since you say you believe “we are saved by grace, we can’t work or earn salvation,” what do you do with this passage:
“Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, so walk in Him.” (Colossians 2:6). (i.e., you live the Christian life the same way you were saved.)
Or this passage:
“Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?” (Galatians 3:3).
Or this passage:
“And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.” (Romans 11:6).
It’s either all of grace, or none of grace. God saves us by His grace alone, not our works, and He sanctifies us by His grace alone, not our works. That is true grace teaching that has redeemed Christians across this world.
Your doctrine has a lot more in common with the LDS than mine does! Quote: “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (LDS Articles of Faith, 1:3) That is a false and unbiblical gospel; so is yours.
Anonymoussays:July 14, 2010 at 10:17 AM
You are either misguided or are misunderstanding.
Salvation was purchased by Jesus.
I NEVER said that laws or rules can lead us to salvation. His grace shows/teaches us what we need to do, it doesn’t say the grace of GOd does it for us.
Verse 12 is clear that we do, we act, we choose. The grace of God doesn’t do it for us. It shows us or teaches us how to. WE DO-GRACE SHOWS
By walking in Jesus, by following his example, we see how to live and what to do. Each person still has to make decisions and sacrifices everyday to live up to that standard.
People are abusing GRACE to live the way they see fit. Again, I never said the law is the way to Christ. I have provided no falsehoods or unbibilical gospel. Those types of accusations provide clear signs to me. . .
Here is probably what best describes my opinions of the law according to GOD’s word.
In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39).
If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today.
Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor.
At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.
“This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). The Ten Commandments were essentially a summary of the entire Old Testament law. Nine of the Ten Commandments are clearly repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day).
Obviously, if we are loving God, we will not be worshipping false gods or bowing down before idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. The purpose of the Old Testament law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior (Romans 7:7-9; Galatians 3:24).
The Old Testament law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.
“The grace of God doesn’t do it for us.”
I disagree. Its grace that lives through us.
Galatians 2
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!
I’d like to suggest we’ve reached a stalemate. I don’t see the point in continuing the debate…
Anonymoussays:July 14, 2010 at 10:36 AM
R.A. butts in and says the conversation is over ha ha ha ha priceless.
Grace definitely lives through us, but if we don’t foster and put in the right ingredients, what do suppose happens to that grace?
If I am understanding the past posts correctly, you are saying everything is on God and I am saying we have a part to play. (responsibilities)
The grace of God isn’t going to remove porn magazines from under your bed. The grace of God isn’t going throw out the secret drug stash in your house.
Hopefully the God and grace that you speak of will show you how to purify and give you room to make choices.
If it were all on God as you seem to believe, then why do we have to do anything in life?
What are we responsible for? Do we even have to pray or read? Do we even have to listen to God? If he chooses and the grace changes us and does for us. What is our part to play?
Sit back and watch Him do everything?
Why did Jesus need disciples?
I agree that action is required on our part. But that action is empowered by grace. Not willpower (AKA flesh).
Anonymoussays:July 14, 2010 at 10:45 AM
R.A. I agree with your last post, empowered by grace. I don’t know where I ever said it was willpower?
Faith without works is dead. (not saying saved by works)
Renewing our minds according to God’s word
Putting our fleshly desires under control by God’s word.
Purifying ourselves.
Walking in Holiness.
Perfecting sanctification.
Anon: In your 10:17 comment, you show a sound understanding of the relation of Law to Grace when it comes to our salvation. My objection (and why I still think there’s an unbiblical taint to your understanding of the Gospel) is that you haven’t taken this understanding the rest of the way and applied it to our sanctification, as is done throughout the Scriptures (for instance the three I quoted above).
You write: “By walking in Jesus, by following his example, we see how to live and what to do. Each person still has to make decisions and sacrifices everyday to live up to that standard.”
But this is saying that the cart pushes the horse. Logically based on Colossians 2:6, we do not have to “live up to that standard” to be sanctified unless we also have to do it to be saved. As you quote from James, either all of the Law applies or none of it does. Either salvation and sanctification are by grace, not works, or salvation and sanctification are by works, not grace.
Jesus used the analogy of a tree and its fruit: “Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).
How does a good tree bear good fruit? By trying its best to copy the ideal tree? No–by being created by God as a good tree and then just being what God already made it. Growth and fruit-bearing are not something a tree has to do but something a tree will do by its very nature. It’s a matter of abiding, as Jesus said:
“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5)
We do not have to live up to the standard of Christ. Christ lives out His life in us.
Also, the idea that “People are abusing GRACE to live the way they see fit” is a straw man and a bugaboo. Who’s saying that? It’s totally answered in Romans 6 anyway. I don’t know anyone who believes this, but I know tons of legalists. I do know people who believe that Grace changes what they see fit.
I’ve now spent far too much time on this and must quit. Peace.
Funny Wordsays:July 14, 2010 at 11:21 AM
@Anon 10:36am – You said “Butt”!!!! HaHaHaHaHAAAAAAAA!!! That was funny to me :}
Eric, I loved your explanation. It is something, 5 years AFTER the HA, I am finally grasping and it is amazing. It isn’t nearly as tiring living for the Lord when I open myself up and let him change me instead of willing it to happen. He pursues, I respond. I don’t try and get him to respond to me.
The sanctification of your mind is a process, and you shouldn’t beat yourself up along the long journey for not instantly being there. And it should spurn out of a true desire to know God more intimately and walk with the Creator of our universe, not so you get to wear an honor ring.
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