Dave Hasz Said WHAT?!

So true and when you discover this simple truth you can become free to walk in a real child like faith that faith which Jesus asked for from each of us. When I read that letter I was shocked and bothered so much.

This thing David Hasz says had perhaps..(bear with me) some truth too it in terms of our walk. If we don’t do our best to come to terms with our faults how could we maintain a clear conscience, even though our conscience must at times recognize The Lord forgave us of things we did not deserve forgiveness for, yanno?

As one who has had come to a point where I literally washed the feet of a man who deliberately ruined me I have been forced to come to terms with the consideration of one who’s conscience was truly seared and the biggest single mark of everything he said was lies.

But when this guy Hasz tries to put the full weight of this whole “true repentance” thing on you all it sounds like he ends up hurting and oppressing you all more than he has helped IMO.

If he has not faced his own Judas and loved enough to wash his feet as our Lord has he probably just hurt many of you, and the more I check this site out the more I become convinced that is what he has done!

ONE MORE THING FOR THE RECORD IF YOU DON’T MIND:

I read where Hasz has promised a qualified and competent review of their own program starting Nov. 1st, 2010 in his response to this site. If he’s for real why has he not been forthcoming with results of this supposed evaluation!?

I read the letter and I definitely agree with what RA is saying, I am not so sure that we didn’t misintepret what Hasz was saying. Our sins are only forgiven when we repent and ask Christ into our hearts. Otherwise, theology would say that without this repentence there would be no reconciliation with God. I dont really see him saying anything about not sinning to recieve grace. I do however see without repentence there can be no forgiveness. I don’t think that we would disagree with that. As far as living whole heartedly; Maybe this is giving to much credit but I read it to be when we committed to die to ourselves and commit our lives whole heartedly to Christ it came at the beginning of our walk with Christ. It feels like he is reminding them of that original commitment and encouraging them to continue that. Just my humble opinion.

In the response site I am certain he listed Nov 1st as the start date, but I will check after this post. 🙂

As for me, I don’t want to refer to what he “meant” at all, even if in general I try to have that allowance in play for pretty much everybody in general. But as far as his promised review, if it’s not forthcoming and transparent in it’s conclusions I’d gladly pillory him for being a slacker at best, and being a liar at worst.

As far as forgiveness goes, I think the disconnect for people in their consciences miss the mark in one direction or another while a healthy walk finds a balance between the “two” polar opposites:

#1 People can (as I have because in part being misled) claim forgiveness and His mercy while continuing to live in all manner of nasty sh!t.

or

#2 People can claim living in true repentance when in fact they have been led into the ditch of “earning” their forgiveness through works instead of faith.

One extreme IMO leads to a faith where our faith is in vain as we continue to sin thinking it’s ok because of His mercy.

The other leads to spiritual constipation where instead of living love and liberty we become afraid of our own frail humanity.

For whatever it’s worth it seems your TM experience was too heavy towards the sky is falling, constipated version.

Does that clarify my position?

Oh, and I just copied this from the response site….

“To reach that goal, I have already set in motion the assembly of an independent committee of experts that will evaluate every aspect of this retreat. This committee will be in place by November 1, 2010 and the individuals serving will be made public (with their specific qualifications) on or before that date.”

So, if it isn’t set up yet without any clarification on Hasz’s part it could just be that he’s a slacker. 🙂

RA, I understand what you are saying about what he means to say. I just took his comment to be about remaining committed whole-heartedly as they were when they first committed to Christ. As far as reading to much into it, it kind of calls for it with the poor sentence structure of DH’s statement. I just think we might be making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Just like the thief on the cross…right Dave?

The entire TM program from start to finish has always been based on works – works – works. Ron Luce has always taught a false gospel of sanctification by works.

Nothing will change because these people do not know the grace of God

Fair enough RA

Conditional forgiveness is NOT forgiveness.

~ Blue Lantern

Dear RA,

Thanks for the reference to the committee. One of the things for me about coming in here is just dealing with the fact that you’ve been on this for a while and have done an incredible amount of work laying things out already. BTW, the very fact that they’ve set up a response site just to respond to you is an indication to me that you have already had a huge impact.

But since they set up a response site but haven’t seen fit to update that particular site with specifics is IMO slacking a bit, but not as much as I thought.

And I do agree with you that the committee lacking a qualified psychologist and/or someone who is qualified to deal with trauma such as PTSD leaves a big whole in it’s effectiveness.

And having 5 of 8 of the members having ties to the group already is all the influence any partisan committee needs to whitewash any topic. I think I saw one of the non-affiliated members quit the committee too.

Some of my favorite records as to free forgiveness is the thief on the cross, Rahab (who is set as an example of faith), and the adulterous woman who was tossed at the Lord’s feet and that He refused to condemn.

But as for me I find I need to say I’m sorry when I know I’ve blown it, yanno? Whether I need to say I’m sorry to somebody I’ve hurt or God, it kind of works the same.

No matter how we each learn to come to terms with these issues IMO it is making a mountain out of a mountain, just simple reality. And I think one of the factors that burns people such as you and other TM folks is the fact that your sin was brought up, not to help free you, but instead in order to bring you into their bondage as in practically any other abusive religious group might do and in fact actually does.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that those three comments on that post aren’t the only ones that have been submitted.

James 2: 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Balance my friends. Don’t put all your eggs in one scripture.

“And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.” (Romans 11:6)

You can have grace because God chooses to give you grace, or you can have grace because you are good enough to be forgiven in the opinion of some guy named Dave. You cannot have both.

(The passage in James is about good deeds as the evidence of faith– “I will show you my faith by my deeds.” It doesn’t have any bearing on the question of how we get grace. It’s often misquoted by some notable cults.)

Also, January is Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month. Thought you’d like to know.

RA, God offers grace however it is up to us to grab it. However, We must understand that when being sinful it is God’s grace and sacrifice that brings forgiveness. We must also not forget that there are consequences for our actions. In Hebrews 10:26-31 “26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” I know that is a lot of verse however the author describes it much better than I could. But the part the kills me the most is in verse 29 where it mentions we have profaned the blood that was used for the covenant. The blood that Yeshua spilled for our sins was basically blasphemed when we go on sinning after knowing the truth. I cannot even imagine the pain and suffering of the sacrifice He went through, yet so many times Christians blow it off for the sake of mercy and grace. We do not even take into account how serious the consequences of our actions are.

I think Dave is referring a lot of that to this verse. Also if you ask God for forgiveness HALF HEARTEDLY do you think God will Forgive. You have to be truly sorry for your sins and whole heartedly mean it. Once you’ve acknowledged your sins you must repent and turn away. Will you make mistakes, absolutely. But if you just sit and rely on grace as a buffer for you to go do what you want then I do not think you still fall under grace.

I agree with that one dude who mentioned a balance.

Point of order that many evangelicals miss when trying to deal with Grace, Hebrews, Romans ect… were letters to specific people. Those people had done specific things that caused this type of response from the apostles who knew Jesus well. To understand that scripture (or ANY of the letters) you need to understand the context. You need to understand WHAT was considered blaspheming christ. In this case from what I have found the historical context has a great deal more with Jews who were claiming Christ yet hedging their bets with the the old practices of the old law. It becomes a very misquoted text by evangelicals that usually refuse to dig for the historical significance of each book of the bible. If you want to find out how a young adult should live read the 1&2 Tim. Those were letters to a specific young man who was trying to teach after those he had learned from in his life.

So we are debating whether Salvation is through faith or works huh?? Check these scriptures out!!

I Cor. 2:8-9 (NIV) “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Here, let’s see that in another translation:

(NASB) “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

HOLD IT…two DIFFERENT translations say the SAME thing….WOW!!! Who knew??

We can’t EARN our Salvation, it’s a GIFT. Yes, the Bible also says that non-believers will know we are Christians by our works, BUT it says, in more then one place, that Salvation is a GIFT and can’t be earned.

Part2:

Here’s another scripture that points AWAY from works:
I Cor 1:26-31 (NIV) “26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”

Wait…that’s saying that God uses lowly things to nullify the mighty things so that NO ONE CAN BOAST ABOUT WHAT THEY’VE DONE. It also says to BOAST IN THE LORD. Wow…what a concept! Not to stand up and say, “I’ve lead xyz amount of people to the Lord!”, but to say, “Thank you Lord for xyz salvations.”

And here is another spot where it talks about FAITH based righteousness, not WORKS based righteousness:
Romans 3:21-31 “21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through FAITH in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have FAITH in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of FAITH. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by FAITH apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by FAITH and the uncircumcised through that same FAITH. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

Wow…that one talks about righteouness and justification through FAITH where Mr. Hasz is talking about righteousness and justifaction though WORKS. Ummm….fals teaching or false interpretation?? You decide.

Dude. Really? I don’t think Dave is referring to any scripture, I think he just said what he meant…. lets have a re-look…

“Remember it is when you are repentant and living whole heartedly, this is when you are forgiven your sins by God, so remain whole hearted and broken before Him.”

About as straight forward as it gets; if you don’t do A (repent and live whole heartedly) then you wont get B (forgivness of your sins by God), so make sure you keep doing A. How can this be interpreted in any other way? It’s a Mom and Dad statement. “Now kids, brush your teeth or you wont get to watch tv tonight.” Simple. Whether you agree or disagree with the statement, it is still obvious what DH is saying.

IMO somebody must take into account Job’s situation in cases like these. Here he was hurting enough to turn most of us into drooling idiots and his “friends” sat around sharing with him everything they knew about how he went wrong.

In like manner, when dealing with people who instead of learning grace and freedom from their cult-like church group all they got out of the deal was enough guilt, self-doubt, and condemnation to mess with their heads for years and the best some folks can say is…you’ve got to have a true repentance from your sins.

I don’t get it, why would anybody say that to anyone whose head has been messed with like that!? I guess we could ask Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar, surely they would understand why it is necessary to say such things to mental abuse victims!

Personally, I think RA’s reaction to TM doctrine is completely understandable and in fact more healthy than what TM did to her/them in the first place.

DH Said it. DH meant it. He doesn’t just sit around saying things he doesn’t mean. In fact, he frowns upon people who do.

“Remember it is when you are repentant and living whole heartedly, this is when you are forgiven your sins by God, so remain whole hearted and broken before Him.”

Just more fear placed on the interns to continue in the heavy-set rules and regulations of the HA. This way they are always questioning if they repented enough, or have checked their hearts enough. Never allowing themselves to walk in freedom but forever questioning themselves. This leaves them easier to control or be called upon again if the ministry needs their resources. Take away someone’s assurance of their salvation and they will work harder for the cause. It’s just another tactic to keep them loyal to TM.

TM/DH have found a way to carry their cult out into the world without keeping the kids on their compound forever like other cults have done in the past.

hearts, only out of historical reference you do not think your sinning under your knowledge is a blasphemy to the sacrifice Jesus made for you? So from a logical stand point God offers His son to die for our mistakes. And yet when we commit sin and we know we are doing wrong you (if you were God) would not consider that blasphemy to the sacrifice of Jesus’ blood made for the people?

Also according to what I’m reading from you if a young adult wants to learn they should only read 1&2 Tim and disregard all the other books because it only refers to them. Even though the others make sense?

So if you hear a wise word from someone but it was referenced to someone else do you simply ignore it? none of this makes any sense from you.

I’m not arguing whether we are saved by grace or works. But I am bringing up the idea that so many people rely on grace after their salvation as an excuse to continue to make mistakes on purpose. Which fits pretty good situational context hearts to the scripture and point.

RA, Paul also went on to say oh wretched man that I am. I’m not shoving condemnation anywhere. But when people take grace for granted so they may purposely go on and live how they want rather than what God wants for the sake of saying it doesn’t matter because they are covered by grace.

RA you accept the versus from the Bible of Grace, but what about the versus of the Bible when God ordered to wipe out tribes of people in the NT? Do you accept those decisions made by our God or only the decisions of Grace? I accept Grace 100% but I also understand that since God has done His end of the bargain I have to do mine and follow Him. I believe their is a point when people who live in this idea of Grace so they can sin on purpose (not out of struggle but just out of complete choice) when they lose the relationship with God and fall out of grace just like in any real relationship.

I find it funny you dismiss any scripture that does not fall in line with your view. It seems as if it does not fall in line with some kind of touchy feely fantasy then it should be void. (I mean that in the nicest way)

In Hebrews 10:26-31 “26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

you tell me what is being said here. Paul was obviously talking to believers. Regardless of historical context is it still applicable? if not then why not? should it only be used as historical piece in an encyclopedia or a way of life?

i meant OT.

DH says come to God wholeheartedly and broken. you say grace is free I agree. However, we must do one thing. We must want it. The prodigal son came entirely broken when you are that broken and desperate you do not come half hearted at an opportunity of something such as grace when you are that broken.

One thing I will say is DH speech tries to fit present and future tense. He does make it seem you have to live whole heartedly future tense to be forgiven for something you have asked present tense. Which is definitely at the least bad sentence structure.

Also what do you think Jesus will do on His return with the non believers and in time of judgement? Or what do you think of the blasphmey of the Holy Spirit as the idea of the unforgivable sin?

Also I find it demeaning to call the people on here kids. All prior interns are adults of age to vote and make their own decisions in their lives. Last time I checked you are not their mother. Also you took my postings as preaching. No just stating versus and opinions with it. I was not pointing fingers at people but I guess if the shoe fits wear it.

my age does not matter but not only do I support my self but also my wife. so you are calling your followers immature and naive. When you were their age would you have considered your self a kid? Is this why you are so protective of them? You look at them like your naive and immature kids?

Wait….RA’s not my mother???

*crawls into fetal position and sings Amazing Grace*

Ummm….Anon @12:39…RA knows that most of the followers of this blog are around her age, or even from the same HA class they were in. Kinda hard to put out an age for someone without knowing a lot of the demographic of the blog, dontcha think?

so if most of her followers are her age then why refer to them as kids? and call them naive and immature? also can you rephrase the question it might have sounded good in your head before typing but to me it makes no sense.

Anon, she wasn’t talking about the people following the blog. She was talking about interns. Most of them have yet to leave the supportive structure of their parents, thus making them kids. Plus, there were a number of minors on campus back when I was an intern, which LEGALLY makes them still kids, even if they’ve been out of High School for 2 years, and are sophmores in college. To me, a true adult is someone who no longer needs support, specifically financial support(even them paying for college is them giving financial support), from their parents. thus making an intern still a kid.

@Anon She means kids right out of the HA are in fact KIDS. As a 30 year old (I seriously don’t feel bad outing my age) I realize now that when I was 20 and I walked into the HA (and I started older than most interns do) I was still very very immature and knew very very little about the world at large. I learned through life experience. Through leaving all cocoons that I had been living in I finally realized what the real world was and how much of what Teen Mania said about the ways of the world were said from someone who tried to create a world that wasn’t this one. The thing is Christ talks about stumbling and how just just keep going. How he always loves you always is with you and his grace is always there. Therefore while I will only speak for myself here I can say that I see your comments about sin post salvation as blasphemy as a bit wrong headed. That said when I was there age I fully knew I was still a kid. I fully knew that you needed real life to be a real adult and that College/HA/being partly family supported is being in a continuous bubble where you don’t have to grow up. Some people never grow up. I know many a person who moved from their parents to their partner (men and women) and expect their partners to do their laundry, clean their room, cook their meals, and in some cases pay their bills. None of these things are very grown up actions. It takes far more than age to really be an adult!

to me an adult is someone of a consenting maturity level. not age. i know people who are 30 and still live with their parents. no the parents aren’t old and living with their adult children. yet their are 16 year olds who are mature enough to make smart decisions and if they needed to, they would be able to survive on their own. when you were 17 did you ever want to be called a kid?

hearts, read the questions regarding the scripture and think if they are wrongheaded or applicable scripture.. don’t worry i’ll wait. i agree on the maturity and age thing.

I thought we have been finding plenty of common ground. although i find it funny you did not answer my questions. not looking for a fight add kicks in and changes subjects.

ANON-You’re funny…kinda like a kid or an immature adult. You come in and change the topic and then wonder why no one wants to talk anymore…it must be because you won the argument you started, right? Oh well…go back to your all-so-grown-up world and us kids will keep discussing DH and his parsing of scripture…buh,bye!

See I was waiting till the Main Anon commenter invoked Godwin’s law…. *Shrug*

@Anon I could argue the warnings against apostasy with you for ages. You would argue that it happens when we first sin after knowing Christ at all whereas Stumbling and getting back and asking for continued grace is enough. Getting carried away by temptation is different than apostasy. But you will likely go to a circular argument about this which is the reason Most of us have no interest in continuing this discussion.

You Christians can’t even agree on your own religion! In the true Grace gospel, yes you can accept grace and go on sinning and still receive grace. Grace is grace is grace is grace. Is there grace or isn’t there? That doesn’t feel good to us humans who want to categorize and rank eachother and say who is and isn’t worthy of grace. Cheese and rice, people! Live your life as you see fit and don’t worry about the path that everyone else is following. I feel sorry for the christians that truly are followers of christ and have to put up with the bs of those self righteous @$$E$ who make themselves judge and jury of everyone else. You make me sick and not only have I thankfully turned away, but, now resent christianity. Good job, fishers of men!!

Anon @2:50– If you believe that “yes you can accept grace and go on sinning and still receive grace,” then you actually agree with Jesus, the Bible, and (really Jesus-following) Christianity. What you resent is a false doctrine about which most Christians, outside of cult-lite groups like HA, would agree with you too.

I applaud your conviction and I’m glad you dislike Dave Hasz’s doctrine… just don’t make the same mistake he does of thinking it’s real Christianity!

Eric-

This is not a sarcastic question…but could you succinctly describe what is real Christianity ?

How come no one has pointed out to anonymous that the prodigal son did not, in fact, come home because he suddenly had a revelation of how wretchedly he had treated his father and how sinful his lifestyle had become? According to Scripture, he went home because he was starving, literally, and hoped that his father would have enough familial loyalty to at least let him eat with the servants. He never apologized, never vowed to change his lifestyle, never confessed to what a terrible thing he’d done. He just wanted something to eat. It’s the most amazing part of the story, to me, and I can’t believe we miss it so much! The father saw his son in the distance and ran to meet him, while hollering commands to his servants to get a party ready, and he hadn’t even had time to find out why the son was back. Forgiveness isn’t really forgiveness if you demand anything in return.

I am not coming to dispute any viewpoint on this thread, but I am wondering where sanctification comes into play here with RA’s view.

It sounds like you are saying that it is pointless to live a ‘set apart’ life.

What do you make of 1 Peter 1:13-16:

“Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy.'”

Thanks!

Anonymous @3:31– A daunting question for sure, but I’ll give it a shot:

Real Christianity is believing in Jesus. Nothing more, nothing less.

In other words, it’s about a person: Jesus of Nazareth. (That is, not about a system of rules or philosophical propositions about Him–about Jesus Himself.) A real Christian is someone who trusts this person Jesus. “Trust” involves not just an outward agreement but a personal reliance.

Specifically, they trust:

– What Jesus said about who He is: God
– What Jesus said are the greatest commandments: Love God and love your neighbors
– What Jesus said is our problem: We can’t or don’t do that
– What Jesus said He would do to fix it: Die in our place and rise from the dead
– What Jesus said God is about: Love, grace, forgiveness, mercy, justice.
– What Jesus said is the way to God: Jesus Himself
– What Jesus said we could do to get to God on our own: Nothing
– What Jesus said we should do instead: Trust in Him to do it for us.

Those points all deserve a ton of elaboration and citation but I’m trying to keep it succinct. 🙂

The main point is that all these are about Jesus. To really know what Christianity is about, you have to know what Jesus is about. It’s better to get that from the source rather than secondhand (though I’m open to questions of course).

I’d suggest reading the NT gospels (start with John) with this in mind: Who is this person Jesus, and how do I respond to Him? That will give you an infinitely better understanding of “real Christianity” than anything I could say.

Hope that is helpful and not too muddled!

Grace and peace.

Anonymous @3:31– A daunting question for sure, but I’ll give it a shot:

Real Christianity is believing in Jesus. Nothing more, nothing less.

In other words, it’s about a person: Jesus of Nazareth. (That is, not about a system of rules or philosophical propositions about Him–about Jesus Himself.) A real Christian is someone who trusts this person Jesus. “Trust” involves not just an outward agreement but a personal reliance.

Specifically, they trust:

– What Jesus said about who He is: God
– What Jesus said are the greatest commandments: Love God and love your neighbors
– What Jesus said is our problem: We can’t or don’t do that
– What Jesus said He would do to fix it: Die in our place and rise from the dead
– What Jesus said God is about: Love, grace, forgiveness, mercy, justice.
– What Jesus said is the way to God: Jesus Himself
– What Jesus said we could do to get to God on our own: Nothing
– What Jesus said we should do instead: Trust in Him to do it for us.

Those points all deserve a ton of elaboration but I’m trying to keep it succinct. 🙂

The main point is that all these are about Jesus. To really know what Christianity is about, you have to know what Jesus is about. It’s better to get that from the source rather than secondhand (though I’m open to questions of course).

I’d suggest reading the NT gospels (start with John) with this in mind: Who is this person Jesus, and how do I respond to Him? That will give you an infinitely better understanding of “real Christianity” than anything I could say.

Hope that helps and isn’t too muddled!

Grace and peace.

RA 336 I have said numerous times I agree on the stand point of grace. If you look at my post you will notice I never said you are saved by works. I was simply saying in a nutshell I do not like people who use grace as an excuse to purposely do as they want and sin just because they know if they do they will be covered. Just for the sake of grace or basically because they can. This was not intended to point fingers at people. Just stating an opinion. But since everyone is getting all wound up I guess if the shoe fits then wear it.

Exactly… you don’t like it, but thats what christianity is! So…. get a different religion that you do like!

Anon @ 7:59– “I do not like people who use grace as an excuse to purposely do as they want and sin…” For every one I know like that, I know 80 who appeal to him as a rationale for legalism. Actually, come to think of it, I don’t even know one like that. Beware of the boogeymen!

Anyway, you’ve got it wrong. In Romans 6-7, Paul points out that Grace keeps us from sin while Law makes us sin. So if you’re worried about people “doing as they want,” don’t teach the Law like Hasz does; it doesn’t work!

Eric, grace and God does not force people against their free will. It is a choice we must make to stay under grace. Paul also said he was a prisoner of Christ. Which in actuality He gave his life for Christ as Christ gave his life for us. I never said I was worried. There are plenty of things I do not like. But not a lot of things I worry about. if quoting scripture is teaching the law then what is it you guys are doing? how was i teaching law? i never disagreed that you are saved by grace vs saved by works.

In regards to people doing what they want I have a very different view point than many people here.

I believe that every individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no way interferes with any other men’s rights. – Abraham Lincoln

We are endowed by our Creator with unalienable rights. So as long as that person is not infringing on my rights and freedoms or others I’m not worried at all. I may have an opinion which was all I was stated. you guys took it and ran with it maybe out of fear of condemnation.

As far as DH I even mentioned how the sentence itself does not break down in proper form to make any sense regarding how to be forgiven of something in present tense only to be living pure in future tense. If that were the case we would never be forgiven. Because God has the ability to know if we sin or not in the future (whether he uses it or not is another subject). At that point why would God forgive if we have to be forgiven by our works in the future when he knows well and good we will fall again.

Eric, if people were sinning just because they feel it is ok because they are covered by grace is this something many would share? You say you don’t know anyone who does this how many do you know that would honestly admit this out of conversation if this were the case? I think their is a line when people take God’s grace for granted. I never said it was anyone in this site. I’m not being legalistic. Just stated an opinion. I don’t know where the line is. I think the line is on a basis between them and God.

This is going in a little bit of a different direction here and I may be opening a can of worms but this post really made me think about this verse and what it would mean in the context of free grace:

“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”
Matthew 6:14-15

I honestly don’t know exactly what to do with this. If grace and forgiveness are free and not dependent on our actions *at all*, why does the Word say we won’t be forgiven by God if we refuse to forgive others? Because that means action on our part is required for forgivness, doesn’t it??

Anyone have thoughts on this?

@Lisa Marie– I find those verses easiest to understand in connection with the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew 18:21-35. Notice that in that parable, the king freely forgave the servant’s debt, but when the servant later refused to forgive his own debtor, the king realized that the servant had rejected the concept of unconditional forgiveness. Verse 33 is the clincher: “Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?”

In other words, it’s not that we have to do anything to receive forgiveness. But if we reject forgiveness, we can’t have it. And if we refuse to forgive people, we’re rejecting forgiveness.

In other other words, forgiveness is not dependent on our actions; forgiveness is dependent on itself.

Lisa Marie-

Because the Bible is contradictory…keep asking good questions until you get good answers.

Eric-Is our forgiveness from God dependent on whether or not we forgive others? Jesus seems to think so…

Eric-
That was a fantastic response and it totally makes sense. Thanks!

Christian agnostic- Thanks for saying i had a good question! lol. Asking questions is how God drew me to Himself in the first place 11 years ago, so I’m not going to stop, for sure. I don’t believe the Bible is contradictory, though- in its original language and intent. I believe that as we dig deeper and understand the character of God more fully, all of those inconsistencies fade.

@Christianagnostic– I’d put it this way: Our forgiveness from God is dependent on whether God forgives us. God doesn’t give us what we don’t want. If we don’t forgive others, we must not be interested in forgiveness. The dependence is not conditional but symbiotic.

Elsewhere in Scripture we are exhorted, “Forgive one another as in Christ God has forgiven you.” As C. S. Lewis postulated, we can’t fully understand time and choice until we are outside of both.

Also, notice that in the context of Matthew 6, Jesus is specifically addressing religious hypocrisy. Sometimes you need a hyperbolical statement to startle complacent listeners.

“Contradictions” can work, but I prefer to say “purposeful literary tensions and philosophically nuanced ambiguities.” 🙂

Eric…interesting way to put it.

Maybe Dave Hasz should have just played the Metalica Song Unforgiven, the accuracy of the theology would be about the same. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgrl9S6HtK8

littlegraygirl…. I don’t know if anyone mentioned this… but I LOVE what you wrote about the prodigal son!!! So amazing, great insight!