For the Broken-Hearted

I couldn’t agree more with your “blame the victim” comment regarding TM. In fact, I’ve spent the last couple of hours scouring your blog, reading your positions, stories from submitters, etc.

It’s certainly challenged me to rethink my position regarding the value of TM and the HA…whether that value is only slightly positive, neutral, or negative.

I come from what some would probably call “old school”, as I participated in the program during the ’94 – ’95 year when it was still just the plain old “Internship”. I date back to a Beach Bash in 1989, an ATF in 1992 where I finally gave my heart to Jesus, followed by years of summer trips with TM. I’ve been an MA, TL, and PD. My last trip with Teen Mania was ’99, where I was the PD to China. Some visitors to this blog may have been on that trip with me.

If I’m completely honest with you, I’d say that though many of your views stated here are accurate, I probably feel they’re a bit extreme. Then again, my only experience with “the program” was 15 years ago when many of the problems you mention existed, but on a much smaller level, it appears. All that being said, I think you’re absolutely 100% spot on to have this blog and challenge TM and the HA on this issues, because for all the positive, I believe that the hurt it causes is far too great to ignore.

I dealt with much of the hurt, frustration, and anger that you and many of you reading this blog have dealt with. I’ve healed, and speaking for my own experience, I feel better having gone through the internship, in the end. However, much of the growth I’ve experienced has been as a result of “healing” from the confusion I gained as a direct result.

So, my point is, not only are you not alone, but there are those of us, from even further back than I’ll be 80% of your readers, who feel to some degree the same way you do.

I only have one question, Recovering: why be anonymous? Why not share your identity?

Dear fellow intern,

My name is Karla. I went through the first January internship in 1993 when Teen Mania was still located in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I was distressed to read much of what was written on the blog. On one hand, I was distressed at the tone of anger that I sensed in what was written, but on the other hand I was also distressed to think that perhaps the internship had gone off the deep end since I was apart of it in 1993. From reading your blog, the probable general impression left on someone who is no longer in the know, but who has a positive impression of Teen Mania overall, is that you and the others are disgruntled individuals that perhaps were disciplined, and now want revenge on imagined offenses. (Please note, I’m talking first impression.) You see, the internship changed my life for the good. During the internship my relationship with God deepened, and my commitment to Him became more solid. I was definitely challenged, sometimes beyond my abilities (Pike’s Peak climb), but those challenges prepared me in much respect for the mission field. I left for Russia in February after completing the internship, and am fairly sure that I would not have succeeded, if I had not first gone through the internship. I have become a successful m in another organization, and have been working for 15 years.

However, after reading the True Stories the likely true picture became clearer, and my heart broke for those who have been hurt, and left confused and broken by their time in the internship. The true stories drew a clear picture without the emotionally charged accusations of the rest of the blog. I feel that they go a lot further to prove your point, and have the potential to bring about positive change as they are balanced and well expressed. They tell concrete facts, and the effects that they had on the individuals involved without drawing conclusions about the motives and spiritual condition of third parties. It is obvious that changes need to be made to the program, and that steps must be taken immediately to avoid any further damage to the lives of future interns, but that doesn’t negate the positive impact that it has had on many. In the true stories, I recognized many of the same elements from my year in the internship, however, I believe that they had a more negative impact because of certain changes in the circumstances surrounding the program in its move from Tulsa to Garden Valley. I do not believe that there is anything sinister in what is taking place on the part of those in leadership, but there are definite problems that must be addressed due to the change in circumstances. Let me explain:

From Karla cont.

In Tulsa, the interns attended various churches of their choice in the city, whereas in Garden Valley, likely because of the size of the surrounding towns and the distance to Dallas/Ft. Worth that is impossible.

In Tulsa, probably at least half of the interns were over 20, and the staff were in their late 20’s and early 30’s. There were very few 18 year olds. Many of us had already attended and completed college. (Like it or not, people who are older, and have had some more experience in the world, respond differently to the exact same stimuli. What is challenging and thought provoking to a 25 year old, could be overwhelming and destructive to a 17 year old.)

In Tulsa, we lived at ORU’s married student housing and were responsible to buy our own food, prepare it, and eat it. Yes, we had rules that we were supposed to follow concerning no TV, opposite sex relationships, etc., but because of our living in separate apartments and working at a third location, there was less control over our daily lives. (ex. No one could control what movies we went to see, or whether or not we broke the fast by a trip to Taco Bell. 🙂 Those choices were between us and God. As a result of there now being a campus where everyone lives together in close quarters, very few restaurants or opportunities for recreation anywhere nearby, and every aspect of everyday life able to be observed and potentially reported on, there is an unavoidable feeling of control that comes in to play. I don’t believe that that was probably the goal, but because of location it was the unavoidable consequence.

In Tulsa, there were around 100 interns, whereas in Garden Valley there are over 500. I have often wondered over the years how they are able to provide the needed mentoring and member care for so many. The way things are felt at the bottom depends in great deal on the leaders that you have in place. However, good leaders are hard to train and harder to keep. The faster the bottom of the pyramid grows, the more pressure it places on middle leadership. The danger is being forced to place people in leadership positions that they are ill equipped to handle, not that they are bad people, but they may not be mature enough to handle the position and what is required of them. (This can mean the difference between dictators for leaders, vs loving mature adults that provide appropriate boundaries.) If you grow too fast, faster than your leadership base, you run the risk of all kinds of evil taking place due to lack of experience and immaturity, not bad intentions or unsound Biblical teaching.

In Tulsa, the interns attended various churches of their choice in the city, whereas in Garden Valley, likely because of the size of the surrounding towns and the distance to Dallas/Ft. Worth that is impossible.

In Tulsa, probably at least half of the interns were over 20, and the staff were in their late 20’s and early 30’s. There were very few 18 year olds. Many of us had already attended and completed college. (Like it or not, people who are older, and have had some more experience in the world, respond differently to the exact same stimuli. What is challenging and thought provoking to a 25 year old, could be overwhelming and destructive to a 17 year old.)

In Tulsa, we lived at ORU’s married student housing and were responsible to buy our own food, prepare it, and eat it. Yes, we had rules that we were supposed to follow concerning no TV, opposite sex relationships, etc., but because of our living in separate apartments and working at a third location, there was less control over our daily lives. (ex. No one could control what movies we went to see, or whether or not we broke the fast by a trip to Taco Bell. 🙂 Those choices were between us and God. As a result of there now being a campus where everyone lives together in close quarters, very few restaurants or opportunities for recreation anywhere nearby, and every aspect of everyday life able to be observed and potentially reported on, there is an unavoidable feeling of control that comes in to play. I don’t believe that that was probably the goal, but because of location it was the unavoidable consequence.

In Tulsa, there were around 100 interns, whereas in Garden Valley there are over 500. I have often wondered over the years how they are able to provide the needed mentoring and member care for so many. The way things are felt at the bottom depends in great deal on the leaders that you have in place. However, good leaders are hard to train and harder to keep. The faster the bottom of the pyramid grows, the more pressure it places on middle leadership. The danger is being forced to place people in leadership positions that they are ill equipped to handle, not that they are bad people, but they may not be mature enough to handle the position and what is required of them. (This can mean the difference between dictators for leaders, vs loving mature adults that provide appropriate boundaries.) If you grow too fast, faster than your leadership base, you run the risk of all kinds of evil taking place due to lack of experience and immaturity, not bad intentions or unsound Biblical teaching.

From Karla cont. 2

Yes, your concerns need to be addressed, and I feel confident that they will be. However, airing them in this way, is running the risk that people will be further hurt by nursing and fanning into flame their wounds and offenses, rather than working through them as you purport to desire. I would encourage you to have a third party, or several third parties who are older, and whom you feel would be able to be impartial, read through your blog, and help you to weed out the things that are inflammatory and could do more harm than good. The inflammatory statements, and the unbalanced presentation of near complete negativity, actually will damage your case and drown out the legitimate concerns and issues that you have. In the end, that will not accomplish your stated goals and desires.
May God bless you and give you wisdom and direction. You have taken on a very weighty task, with very real consequences, whether or not you experience them personally. It is a difficult and dangerous place to sit in judgement. It takes wisdom, and a spirit of love and genuine care for each and every person involved to judge rightly. Sometimes it is necessary, but I hope that I am never placed in that position. That is why I am praying for you, and each person concerned, including the board members and the leadership of Teen Mania. Please let me know how it turns out.

Anon..
I appreciate you drawing a contrast between the HA of the present and back in the “old days” of Tulsa. I can see very well how it would have been easier to discern for yourself being older and having been to college already and being more independent. Of course!!

I find it interesting that you would suggest finding someone “older” to help moderate the blog. Do you think we are all (or RA specifically) still those defenseless, uneducated, no life experience 18 year olds? We’re not. We’re certainly not.

The danger in reporting negative events to anyone at TM is always that they will be dismissed the way you admitted to your “first impression” as a bunch of misfit HA rejects who couldn’t hang. Thats one of the biggest hurdles we have in seeing any change. But the issues are severe enough that its worth the effort and I believe RA and the others involved in this blog are going about it in an appropriate way….thanks for the input though 😉

Sorry I forgot you had put your name…that was directed to Karla.

@Karla: Glad to see someone even “older school” than I am having discovered this site. 🙂 You and I are acquainted…remember the Tulsa reunion Vance & Stacy put together a few years ago? That was a blast. 🙂

I have to confirm what Lisa said. Having read through the blog and recognized friends and acquaintances of mine, many of the people here are in their late 20’s and a few in their early 30’s. Many of the educated, married, parents…all walks of life.

Though your assessment of the likely “first impressions” are correct, I feel the pain of Lisa and the others who feel that airing their grievances will always be perceived as that first impression: disgruntled recipients of discipline, or people rejecting the lifestyle promoted by TM so that they can live lives of sin. I don’t think it’s at all unrealistic to think that’s highly likely. (that they would be perceived that way)

That being said, I love how you contrasted our earlier years with Garden Valley. “The internship” with “The Honor Academy”. The staff, culture, and philosophy were all, from what I gather, drastically different. Though I among others in my “class” (I’m not sure we called them “classes” back then) have felt similar hurts and frustrations, we all have agreed that we loved our year with TM. Judging from the stories of hurt that are stated here, I think I’ve come to the conclusion that they’re talking about an organization and program that is completely foreign to me. It’s not the Teen Mania Internship that I knew and loved.

I think that this is a healthy forum, as long as it is guided and moderated well. RA, I’d challenge you to make sure that you’re guarding against extremism here. Reading your posts, I see nothing but a fair, mature statement of your problems with TM. Whether I agree with all of what you say or not, I can certainly agree with the way you present your views. Just be sure that as I’m warned to not “spout the TM party line” as a commenter, you should have equal policies that protect anyone coming here who has something good to say about Teen Mania.

So I’m 22 and want to jump on board with the ‘old’ kids from the internship!
I only have one question that I’ve had since I left T.M.-
How did the internship EVEN go the direction it did? It sounds like they’ve been carrying out the SAME game plan for like 20 years!
How did the internship get formed in the first place?
And I guess I’m not looking for the ‘story’ they told us that when we got there, but the whole structure. Does anyone know how Ron Luce came up with the ‘game plan’?
I think that’s the only thing I don’t understand about T.M. -how it started.

Natalie,

You know I wish I could give you more than speculation, but for the “real” story from someone who was there, you’d have to go a little further back than me. I think I was part of the 4th or 5th internship class at TM.

However, the only insight I will offer is that back then, simply by nature of being much smaller, we were a little more personally acquainted with the senior leadership of TM than most interns are now. Also, having remained active in Teen Mania missions leadership, I got to know many of the people in charge as friends over the last 15 years or so.

From that perspective, I can say that I agree with RA above that TM’s motivation, and this includes Ron, Dave Hasz and everyone else, isn’t dubious at all. One of the things I’ve loved about reading this blog is that I don’t see anyone, especially RA, implying that. These are people following what they feel is God’s call with sincerity and passion. It’s their methods that are turning out to be somewhat bad.

Having known many of these people for nearly 20 years, I can say without hesitation that when starting the program, it was mostly inspired by a completely altruistic desire to see spiritual growth in young adults. It would be speculation to say that there were every conversations like “Wow, we could get TONS of free labor!”, but I’ll pose that even if conversations like that happened on some level, I wouldn’t fault them for that. In the internship’s early days, it really was a fantastic program, and I think a fair expectation would be that each intern would be giving back to the ministry in the form of work.

I suppose my point is that I think they started the program for the very reasons they state: to provide a place for young christian adults to come and learn and grow in every area of their lives. I’d even say that TM and its leadership are still at least consciously convinced that this is the reason the program exists today. As to whether the Honor Academy has become something that does more harm than good…I think that’s something each person’s going to have to weigh for his or herself.

@ karla,

thanks for bringing another perspective to the table. it is so bizarre to imagine the internship with healthy boundaries. 🙂

i just wanted to address one of your comments:

“…the probable general impression left on someone who is no longer in the know, but who has a positive impression of Teen Mania overall, is that you and the others are disgruntled individuals that perhaps were disciplined, and now want revenge on imagined offenses.”

i know this was your first impression. however, i know many many people who feel the way i do, and had a similar experience as i did during the internship and WERE NEVER DISCIPLINED. or disgruntled. and our offenses were and are very real. our hearts have no vengeance, but rather a desire to see change in the HA so not one more kid has to experience the trauma we went thru.

i found it interesting that you would choose this particular blog post to say these things…to caution us about voicing our fears, pain and brokenness. i can tell you with great certainty that we are not among the few, but the many. and most of us took several years to come to grips with how much pain we experienced, and the devastating extent to which TM impacted us. i have many friends who have stories, but cannot even write about them because it is still too painful…10+ years after the fact. i would even go so far as to say that for every person that comes forward (as RA and many others have done so bravely) there are at least 20 who feel the same way but cannot speak out because they are STILL AFRAID. every bone in my body wants to scream that we are safe, we are out of harm’s way, and TM rules and thoughts and perspective rarely, if ever, reflects the heart of Jesus and his vast Love for us. Love can handle criticism. It can hear and bear witness to our pain and desperation. It can absorb our shredded hearts and make them whole again. I hope Teen Mania can begin to model the internship after this Love and make amends for the pain they have caused.

I was never disciplined either. I was confronted on occasions for often stupid and random things. But never disciplined though.

And I apologise for not commenting on the blog as regularly as i used to – things have been crazy busy at work! But I’ve still been reading the blogs though 🙂 Love all you guys! 😀

I was an intern, a graduate intern, and a staff member. I had my share of issues with TM when I was there. I had meetings with both Ron and Dave about those issues, as well as with other leadership team members. Not all of those meetings were happy and some were quite intense. Sometimes I felt like my issues were understood, sometimes I didn’t. For a while I was bitter. I left bitter and a bit brokenhearted.

But you know what? As I continued to grow and mature I realized a few things. One of which was that the issues going on in my heart were my issues. They weren’t Ron’s or Dave’s issues. They were mine. If I was bitter, that was a condition of my own heart. I had to deal with it. I had to grow up and realize that life isn’t always just hunkey dorey and that TM leadership who I admired were just human beings like me and that they were flawed just like me. I realized that I had to let go of all that and move forward if I was to really fulful God’s purposes in my life. And that’s what I did. Later I was able to have complete restoration with the people I was upset with. But that restoration could only come after I worked on my own heart issues.

I don’t claim to have read every post on this site. What’s more, I won’t waste my time doing so. I have, however, read enough to come away with a general sense that the people behind this blog are steeped in bitterness and have not learned to take personal responsibility, have not learned to let go, and do not seem to be giving much effort to doing either of those things.

Now, I realize my comment will not be allowed because I’ve said these things, but that’s ok. For the record I don’t think everyone or everything at Teen Mania is perfect. I do think the people, the programs, and the teachings are motivated by a great love for God and a desire to see this generation used for His purposes. Are they going to get it 100% right every time? No. Nope. Definitely not. Should they be hung in effigy for their failures? No. Nope. Definitely not.

Bottom line, grow up, drop your obsession with Teen Mania, get a life, move on.

Tonight I received what appeared to be a mass email from the proprieter(s) of this blog. I don’t know how they got my email address or why they thought I would want to be in on this little bitch fest. But I don’t. So stop sending out unsolicited emails.

Anon 10:58: interesting perspective. It’s interesting because from what I’ve read on this blog, I’ve gotten the exact opposite impression you have. I see hunger for truth, healing, and restoration.

In Christian love, I humbly submit to you that if you care and want your opinion considered, please speak what you believe as truth in love (according to Ephesians 4)because “waste my time” “do not seem to be giving much effort” “get a life, move on” and “bitch fest” do not suggest compassion or genuine concern. God bless you.

I guess an introduction would probably be the best starting point- my name is Josh and I am an intern (and now alumni) of the January 2008 class of the Honor Academy. I’d be lying if I said that my experience were a negative one, as I consider it one of the best years of my life (which, consequently, probably makes me more than a little biased against some line of thinking somewhere). I’ll admit that, yes, sometimes the HA could be exceptionally difficult, and that my experience was likely not the norm. I don’t pretend to think that the internship is a perfect experience, and I’ve many friends that have had more than their share of trying times with the HA.

Something a bit more on-topic- this post seems to be the exact opposite of my experience as an intern. Again, my life there is probably not the standard life of the average intern, but I can’t ever recall being told anything similar to what was described in the first paragraph. Classes that discussed negative emotions as well as almost every one of the meetings I shared with my core seemed to revolve around getting things into the light- if we were angry, frustrated, depressed, pissed off, confused, bitter, whatever, we were constantly encouraged to talk about it. You can’t really force someone to say anything like that, but I can’t recall ever being told to suck it up and move on with my life. Perhaps it was merely my experience with my fellow interns, but it always seemed like we were encouraging one another to display our less desirable traits- to be real with one another, even if that meant showing that we’re messed up individuals ourselves. One of the biggest things I learned from the internship is to value myself, to value myself for what G-d sees in me, not for what others might see or perceive.

Maybe I’m meshing time I spent with my friends, my core, and in the classes all together. I don’t think I’ve been brainwashed (but then, would I think so if I had? Ah, paranoia), I’ve got a fairly good recollection of my year (and notes galore). I’ve had friends leave over doctrinal differences, and yeah, some people seem to take that as a personal affront of their character. I do have some points where I disagree with the ministry, but I don’t think that makes it something terrible. If this blog speaks for the majority, then my TMM experience is very different, perhaps the polar opposite. Maybe I won’t think that way in 10 years, maybe I’ll be dead-set against the ministry and pray that G-d turns it around, but I hope that, if that happens to be the case, it’s because I feel that it’s genuinely necessary, and not because my opinions of its effects on my life have radically changed.

On to the Week of the Ring post!

To RA- I hope that my posting didn’t come off as hateful sounding or any such thing. I don’t want to discount your experiences or cheapen what you feel, I just wanted to drop in my two cents. If the internship was bad for you, I assure you that it’s not bad for all. I don’t know many people who have had such a negative experience as yourself, but then, I’m only a year out of my internship. Maybe time will change that, and it’s my foolishness keeps saying it won’t. I’m glad your concerned, but my internship seems so drastically different from yours.

Recovering Alumni

You are not getting hateful comments. You just mass emailed a bunch of people and exposed your blog to a lot of folks who don’t agree with you. So you’re getting some serious pushback and you don’t like it. That doesn’t make it hateful. You pride yourself in what you percieve as being blunt – honest – maybe kinda gritty. Well don’t be too taken aback when people respond in kind. For the record, you really ought to admit that sending unsolicited emails like you did sure looks like you’re trying to gin up hard feelings against Teen Mania. Your methods make your motives questionable. Are you really all about just trying to get some wrongs righted? Or are you obsessed with Teen Mania and trying to push your bitterness on other people? Those are fair questions and you really ought to consider them. I’m sure you have, but consider them again. Because this site seems more than anything to be a forum for publicly burning TM to the ground.

As I said earlier, I had some serious grievances with TM. I sat in meetings with Dave where voices were tempers ran high. There was a time when I felt very very wronged by TM. I dealt with it in a different way and I am free of all that now. I dare say my way was better.

You know what’s heartbreaking? The tone of bitterness on this site from you and the people in your anti-tm echo chamber is heart breaking. And what you have created here is in many ways just what you accuse the HA of being, or insinuate that it might be. So if my words sounded harsh, it’s because they were. Sometimes a harsh word is the only thing that cuts above the din when 90% of what you are hearing here is simply agreement.

You need to hear a little dissent. Or maybe a lot of it. Because, again, you are in grave danger of becoming exactly what you claim to be against.

Dear Recovering Alumni,

Not only did you piss off a whole lot of people with your unsolicited email inviting us to join your bitterness club, you actually violated laws regarding spam. So much for starting something on a right foundation.

Recovering Alumni said…
Getting lots of hateful sounding comments tonight…and people wonder why I want to remain anonymous??

Not hateful comments. I think you are just getting blasted by people who think you are incorrect, stuck in your past and pretty much fixated on whining and justifying your condition by blaming someone else.

I’d assume you want to remain anonymous because you are a coward and are afraid to be called out. But thats just my opinion… You know, people might recognize you and be like, oh, no wonder, its so-and-so, disregard.

But I could be wrong. Maybe knowing who you are would add credibility to your perspective. If not, than it very well could be what I said in the paragraph above.

I’m remaining anon because I fully expect this comment to be deleted. I guess we’ll see.

Last Anon – Wow. What a butt.
“You know, people might recognize you and be like, oh, no wonder, its so-and-so, disregard.” – And could you please explain to me where the love is in your comment there? How fickle and shallow are you? I can’t actually believe my eyes as to what I’ve just read. It’s people like you that prevent people like myself from feeling that we can be open with how we’re feeling and what we went through at Teen Mania.

It still frustrates me, but at the same time makes me laugh, that people believe that because we have a differing opinion that all of a sudden we’re bitter? I guess Jesus must have been bitter too when Judas betrayed him? Or maybe when He was crucified?

Where’s Cesna? I feel a “Dear Poopyhead RA” comment coming on!

Josh- I do believe we knew each other at the internship. Hi there 🙂

Let me just say to all the anonymous people who left hateful comments- look at Josh’s example. He disagreed in a very tactful manner, without watering down or wimping out of his personal view of the ministry.

It just makes me laugh how AS SOON as somebody announces that they disagree with TM, any points they could possibly make about the Things of God are quickly disregarded, something unworthy of a true elite warrior’s time.

Sure, sometimes we may make a biting joke here and there about our experiences, but it’s called a sense of humor. A lot of people use humor to cope when they know that unadulterated vulnerability won’t be taken seriously.

And, honestly, I can finally stand and say that I’m not bitter. And guess what? The Lord brought me to that point using this blog. Because I’ve seen that it’s not just me, TM’s NOT facilitating an abusive environment on purpose, and I’ve been able to process my rage, depression, worthlessness, and pride… and been able to move on from my pain.

And now, like RA, I’m back, here to lend an ear and some experience. I’m here to let others know that they’re not alone, and that there is HOPE on the other side.

tl;dr version: be nice.

@ Anonymous-who-will-not-be-named-or-censored:

1) I know RA personally, and can attest to their unwavering and solid character.

2) Why are you fighting so hard to debunk EVERYONE on this site? I am truly glad that you had positive interactions with DH, but others did not. *I* did not. And while I appreciate your experience there, I do not appreciate the judgment in your words, nor do I appreciate the tone. It is hard for us to speak up. Have some compassion for those who did not have a good experience.

3) Those who are abused have three options when dealing with it: become the victim, become the abuser, or become a beacon of Love and healing for themselves and those who have suffered. We are all working on becoming beacons. It is my greatest hope you can support us in that venture, instead of becoming the abuser. And, based on this limited interaction, you are tenuously close to becoming the latter.

Please find a place of Love to speak from in future comments if possible.

Since I’ve already swam around in this thread…might as well take another dip.

RA, I gotta side with people frustrated on the mass email. Probably not the best move, but honestly, in the end, I’m glad that I was a recipient because I’m glad I found this blog.

To those of you commenting negatively…I hear you. When it’s all said and done, I had an extremely positive experience with TM, so even though I’ve experienced hurt and frustration at the hands of TM, and I know many others who have, it hurts to have an experience that was so good to me criticized. I’ve also made my opinion known here that I don’t feel any of TM’s founders or leadership are immoral people. I’ve come to know them as very passionate, loving people whose methods I take some issue with.

However, unlike one anon commenter who said “I haven’t read this entire blog.”, I actually have. I’ve spent the last couple of days scouring this blog, reading RA’s posts, the stories submitted by readers, and many of the comments. Daunting task, I know. But it was worth it. I find no evidence whatsoever of disrespectful or immature “bitching”, as one of you referred to it. This is a site where people can feel safe to air their grievances and discuss their hurts. As RA has said many times, this site isn’t for people who have already completely dealt with their hurt or frustration, nor is it for people who are completely 100% happy with TM and everything they do. It’s for people who may still be processing (to use a catchy TM word) through these issues to come and see that they aren’t crazy. They aren’t alone.

The Internship, the Honor Academy, or whatever it was called when you went through it, is a powerful experience no matter how you cut it. Whether your views are positive or negative, it will without question be one of the most significant experiences a person will go through in his or her lifetime. And anyone contributing to this site has every right and I daresay responsibility to process that experience and make their concerns known.

I applaud you, RA, though I have to admit I’d much rather you share your identity ;), for starting this site and sharing your opinion. I think that you would agree that many of your posts are indeed emotionally charged…how could they not be? But as objectively as I can say this, your detractors apparently don’t see your tone or language the way I do. I see you as being respectful, whether I agree with them or not. Not bitching at all.

And good for you for leaving their comments up. I’m sure you’ll get more of them.

RA, I think you did the right thing by e-mailing people about the blog. Perhaps they are upset, but people do have a right to know that the board is considering an investigation. That alone should be a signal to the recipients of your e-mail that you are not alone in your concerns, and that the concerns are valid.

So. . .
I’ve been thinking about this post and these responses while making my lunch, and I have something to add.

It hurts to be told that the organization you’ve loved and valued could possibly be hurting people, and systematically so. It is only natural to question whether or not the people who have been hurt are really just bitter, angry, or confused. I can imagine it’s especially natural to feel that way if the experience a person had with TM was a particularly good one.

I think that’s why RA and others on this blog avoid saying to those who come here announcing that TM Is awesome, “You’re just brainwashed! TM is evil and you know it! You’re wrong, you’re wrong, you’re wrong!”

Because it SUCKS to be told you’re brainwashed. It’s offensive and it completely belittles the conversation.

The thing is, it also sucks to be told that you’re only writing/thinking about something because you’re angry or bitter about it, can’t get over it, need to grow up, etc. I think those are the opposite accusations that are just going to piss people off instead of creating a space for figuring out our issues with TM.

Now, I don’t see many participants in this blog accusing current interns or happy alumni as being brainwashed, but I can imagine that a lot of us think it, even if we’re not saying it. I DO see a lot of pro-TM folks coming on and accusing the rest of us of being angry or bitter. They’re thinking and saying it. 🙂

Why can’t we just eliminate those two arguments? We know that you’re not brainwashed, and you should know that we’re not just bitter and angry.

There. Can we continue the conversation now?

Thanks.

Ok. I got an email about this blog. I have been reading it all and it is very interesting. However, I am VERY confused! What happened to people at TM?

My experience at TM was forever life changing. It was the hardest thing I have ever done. However, I was never disciplined or confronted in a negative light by higher authority. I don’t have any negative experiences from TM. I had some negative experiences after the internship, but that was my own fault and my own setbacks.

Am I missing something here?

I was an early 90’s intern/leader/PD/staff…I was drawn to TM because of the passion Ron had to reach the world with the Transforming power of Jesus through teens. I really ‘got that’ during my internship, but what I saw progressing during the growth years was a movement towards ‘behavior transformation’ rather than a cultivating ‘heart transformation’. I saw that as my heart transformed, my passion, zeal for Jesus was contagious and I lead many to the Lord by simply sharing the love of Christ that was very real in my heart. Behavior never seemed to be an issue…but as the ‘behaior movement’ started to creep in TM took on a new culture, which is why I moved on. I got tired of having to ‘do’ more for Jesus (and TM) to validate my christianity. It started feeling very religious and not relationship oriented.

To RA

As I mentioned (somewhere), I may have ended up meshing my experiences with friends and my core in there quite a bit. There may have been times where we were discouraged of that, and I simply don’t recall, but if we were instructed to do so, we had a nasty tendency to disobey the leadership concerning it. I know that I’m not the only one who has had such an experience, but I also know that, for some, they didn’t have anything resembling like that.

On the negative comments, I understand why you choose to remain anonymous, RA. My view on dismissed interns and those who leave the internship doesn’t appear to be the norm, which bums me out. Anonymity is surely nice, and I don’t think it hurts your credibility or your experience.

To Ex-Intern Aug 07, yeah. You guys disagree with TMM- big deal. Snap, we might disagree theologically! You might be *gasp* a woman! Ah, we have different outlooks on things, big deal. Some people have experiences that stick with them for life, some people have hard opinions about things, or you don’t really agree with the ministry… Whatever. We’re all of Christ (I assume), and that shouldn’t cause a random schism because there’s some disagreement. This ain’t pews v. chairs here, people! (Haha)

Nunquam Honorablus, I’m glad that I could help contribute to the comments on this site in a meaningful way. I’m probably not the only one who has seen way too much anonymous name-calling from the safety of the ‘net. I’ve started seeing that this isn’t a hate-fest cleverly disguised as a self-help sort of thing, but that the intentions of RA really seem to be helping interns, alumni, and maybe the ministry as a whole (hence the sending of stories to the board).

As for Anon 5:48, in my internship experience, I suppose I can see how some people may have felt the idea of ‘doing more’ for Jesus to validate their faith was going on in their heads. It bums me out that it happens at all, and some aspects of the ministry or the people within should be looked at, if that’s the idea. I don’t feel that I was ever in such a position, so maybe I should count myself lucky.

RA — I’m totally with you. I know exactly what you mean, and I agree.

I think you’re doing a great thing here. I also respect your decision to remain anonymous, and I hope you don’t take the criticisms of that decision to heart.

Liz –

*gasp* did you say SUCKS??? You know what a big no-no that is….

HAHA

“Bottom line, grow up, drop your obsession with Teen Mania, get a life, move on.”

I laugh at that line. Whoever wrote this must have showed up in Garden Valley thinking they were about to spend a year on vacation. Had I left Teen Mania after my first year internship – I think my overall experience would have been positive. Had I left after my graduate program I still think I would have had a positive experience – it was when I entered into the third circle of doom – being a slave member – oh wait staff member (well pseudo staff member) did things go sour.

People such as myself – and honestly I haven’t thought much about TM in awhile, aside from randomly seeing Ron and Katie Luce in Istanbul while on a layover and/or the fact that my younger sister went to the HA (granted with tons of advice) – but we gave a lot of our time and adolescence to this organization. To feel violated, ignored, used, discarded and ultimately disrespected is a lot to deal with – especially after giving your blood, sweat, tears, and life force towards something that ultimately hurts you. Most people haven’t had appropriate venues or places to discuss these things. Whoever the idiot-christian-savant-retard that wrote that comment is – believe me – we want lives and to move on – trust me, and we are. There is nothing more all of us would love is true healing – and guess what – now -more than ever we will get it – because we have a kickass support group – so stay the **** out. Go buy your outfits for alumni weekend.

Campione.

Eric, I want to meet you and give you a high-five.

Also, I believe I was in your sister’s class. Hmm, I might know her! Probably not though; I was kind of a shut-off.

Nunquam – Would love to meet you someday. I make rounds around the country with my job – hop on over to my blog and shoot me an email from over there – and someday we can set it up. My sister, Tesssa, weds her HA boyfriend next weekend. Lord help me. 😉 (I like her husband to be).

This blog makes me happy. It feels good to know that there others out there that had/have a hard time in the cult.

Eric- “but we gave a lot of our time and adolescence to this organization. To feel violated, ignored, used, discarded and ultimately disrespected is a lot to deal with – especially after giving your blood, sweat, tears, and life force towards something that ultimately hurts you.”

totally something that could have come from my own mouth. I’ll give you a high-five for that one too.

Josh – I don’t think I know you, but you might know me…or at least would have heard about me! haha! I left about 2 weeks after your january class started, with 2 other people too. Moved in with one of the staff members, and was accused of leaving Teen Mania for a cult – ring any bells? Haha!

Ex-intern! Haha. I definitely heard about that. A staff member that convinced three intern females to leave the internship and join a cult.
was that you?!
What happened?!?!

Hahaha. Usually people think that’s the other way around, no? I think I remember hearing something about it, and I may have spotted you before you flew the coop, as it were.

Shiloh – Well one of the girls was the Pastor’s daughter (who was also a staff member in IT, which Teen Mania denied whilst he was STILL working there!). None of us were pressured or brainwashed into leaving. It was all seperate decisions to leave too. We chose to leave the internship because of the spiritual abuse and other things mentioned across the site.

I don’t think there’s much use in keeping my identity hidden now i’ve pretty much given it away! haha!

Well, ex-intern, there are a few of us that would still lack any idea who you are. You’d probably have to spell it out (though that’s not what I’m saying you should do).

Hey Dan, its april…loved what you had to say!

I have not found any bitterness either…..just someone (RA) reaching out to others who want to recover….and move on.

Thanks for being brave and actually doing something to make TM accountable! Aren’t you doing the very thing they taught us to do….oh, but we can’t do that to them….only them to us!

Think about it…why would it be so hard for TM to not embrace these stories…there all about the challenge except when they are being challenged and not the other way around.

I sure hope the Board takes notice and will take some action….because even though I’ve been hurt….I have to say I still love TM but is that just because I’m brainwashed…. ; )

“There is nothing more all of us would love is true healing – and guess what – now -more than ever we will get it – because we have a kickass support group – so stay the **** out.”

Eric – the funny thing is, the only reason I ever posted any comments here was because I was notified of it through an unsolicited mass email from the blog’s proprieter. If the blogger(s) wish to keep this site as a “support group” and keep out opposing viewpoints, they would do well to not announce it to a bunch of people who don’t agree.

I will give this blog a little credit though – I thought for sure my comments would be deleted because the comment policy seems to imply that anyone with a pro-tm viewpoint will be deleted.

I am the wife of a man who knew DH before he was at TM. My husband is still (decades later) recovering from the emotional and spiritual abuse that occurred during that time. Thank you for speaking honestly on this site – for opening the doors of communication and freedom for those who have suffered, feeling isolated while enduring the effects of this abuse. I cheer for you as I pray for those (along with my husband) who are recovering from the abuse.

Last Anon – Thank you for sharing an outside perspective of DH with all of us HA recoverees. I’m so glad to hear that your husband is working through the hurt. He can always join in on the conversation here.

Anon 1:17 – Ditto what layne said. There is room for all voices here. If your husband thinks he could further his recovery here – he is welcome to chime in…

RA, I have found your blog very healing and comforting. Further more I’ve found it encouraging. In your mission to speak truth and love, you have done it! Thank you! From the depth of my heart.

I believe people can and will attempt at any cost; to find what ever allegoric reason they can give you to show error in your story or your character, but I see your tenderness and I recognize your perception of the application of truth unfiltered Grace and Mercy.

Many Blessings to you friend!