Isn’t it ironic that Teen Mania will travel across the world to reach a tribal witchdoctor but befriending a local bartender is considered scandalous?
Isn’t it ironic that TM teaches that the honorable, the statesman-like and the disciplined are blessed, but Jesus said that the broken, the hungry, and the poor in spirit are blessed?
Isn’t it ironic that the only people Jesus ever confronted harshly over their sins were the Pharisees?
Isn’t it ironic that TM teaches interns to make restitution for cheating or stealing, yet fails to make restitution for the injuries it causes?
Isn’t it ironic that TM says that Christian leaders who drink alcohol are “wicked sinners” but Jesus drank and even provided alcohol for parties?
Isn’t it ironic that Jesus chose uneducated tradesman for his internship and didn’t even try to make them influencers or statesmen?
Isn’t it ironic that Jesus never put the disciples on probation or dismissed them when they sinned?
Isn’t it ironic that Dave Hasz encourages confronting others over minor things but Jesus said not to look at the speck in your brother’s eye when you have a plank in your own?
Isn’t it ironic that Dave Hasz teaches that it is not “socially acceptable” (direct quote) for women to refrain from wearing makeup and painting their toenails, yet Jesus eschewed social acceptability and befriended whores, alcoholics and lepers?
Isn’t it ironic that the Honor Academy is only for the elite but Jesus came for the sick, not the healthy?
Isn’t it ironic that TM calls themselves Christians but they don’t act like Christ?
38 comments:
Cesna said…
Amen, amen, a thousand times amen!
May 13, 2010 8:31 AM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
IT’S LIKE TEN THOUSAND INCIDENT REPORTS, WHEN ALL YOU NEED IS SOME GRACE ♫
May 13, 2010 9:12 AM
Jacqueline said…
Well said. It is striking to consider what you just said.
May 13, 2010 9:30 AM
shannon nelson said…
I had to laugh about the “socially acceptable” part. That was part of my vision statement I wrote at the HA. Something about being:
Relatable and genuine, rarely socially acceptable.
May 13, 2010 9:39 AM
Anonymous said…
isn’t it ironic that you spend so much time pointing out other peoples flaws instead of moving on with your life?
May 13, 2010 9:40 AM
No, I’M Anonymous! said…
Isn’t it ironic that the anonymous above has no idea what they’re talking about?
This game is fun!
May 13, 2010 9:41 AM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Um… that’s not actually irony, Anonymous.
Zinging: you’re doing it wrong.
May 13, 2010 9:43 AM
Eric P. said…
However, it is ironic that Anonymous is spending time pointing out other people’s flaws.
May 13, 2010 10:03 AM
Anonymous said…
“Isn’t it ironic that Teen Mania will travel across the world to reach a tribal witchdoctor but befriending a local bartender is considered scandalous?” I went on a mission trip last year with TM where we ministered to drunks, prostitutes, guys clearly on crack, and yes a bartender
“Isn’t it ironic that TM teaches that the honorable, the statesman-like and the disciplined are blessed, but Jesus said that the broken, the hungry, and the poor in spirit are blessed?” Pretty confident they teach the poor, hungry and poor in spirit are blessed…Global Expeditions? your saying that those that have discipline are not?
“Isn’t it ironic that the only people Jesus ever confronted harshly over their sins were the Pharisees?” Where’s the irony? I don’t get it
“Isn’t it ironic that TM teaches interns to make restitution for cheating or stealing, yet fails to make restitution for the injuries it causes?” Maybe, but I see them making restituation for injuries every day. Granted they have a ways to go but they are doing it
“Isn’t it ironic that TM says that Christian leaders who drink alcohol are “wicked sinners” but Jesus drank and even provided alcohol for parties?” Isn’t it ironic that you took this out of context to make your point? I think they are referring to those that are drunk, not drinking
“Isn’t it ironic that Jesus chose uneducated tradesman for his internship and didn’t even try to make them influencers or statesmen?” This made me laugh….he influenced his disciples to follow him and be like him so yes he did
“Isn’t it ironic that Jesus never put the disciples on probation or dismissed them when they sinned?” seriously?
“Isn’t it ironic that Dave Hasz encourages confronting others over minor things but Jesus said not to look at the speck in your brother’s eye when you have a plank in your own?” Isn’t it ironic that so do you?
“Isn’t it ironic that Dave Hasz teaches that it is not “socially acceptable” (direct quote) for women to refrain from wearing makeup and painting their toenails, yet Jesus eschewed social acceptability and befriended whores, alcoholics and lepers?” your talking about 2 different things
“Isn’t it ironic that the Honor Academy is only for the elite but Jesus came for the sick, not the healthy?” I’ll give you this one however he came to change the sick to become healthy…
“Isn’t it ironic that TM calls themselves Christians but they don’t act like Christ?” Again, neither do you
May 13, 2010 10:28 AM
Anonymous said…
Anon at 10:28 – I read your post just now and was a bit angry. HOWEVER, I was where you are a few years ago. I thought TM could do no wrong. Give it a few years of maturing and growing in your understanding of God and His Word (and salvation for that matter) and you might change your mind about what you just wrote. I hope.
May 13, 2010 10:38 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Re: the alcohol comment – Dave Hasz actually said this to some youth leaders when he discovered they had alcohol in their home and drank in moderation. He called them “wicked sinners” in front of a room full of people.
May 13, 2010 10:41 AM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
One of his reasons for never drinking, was that Jesus said He was holding off till the Wedding Feast of the Lamb or something. So hey we should hold out too!
May 13, 2010 10:47 AM
Eric P. said…
It’s been remarked that a diminished sense of humor and irony is one of the characteristics of those going through spiritual abuse (or other kinds of abuse, for that matter).
Anon 10:28, the “irony” in the post is that the picture of Jesus’ teachings you’ve been given is pretty much the opposite of what Jesus actually taught.
For instance, you laugh at the notion that Jesus didn’t train people to be “influencers or statesmen”– now read Matthew 20:25-28.
You say “seriously?” to the idea that Jesus wouldn’t dismiss people if they sinned– now read John 8:1-11.
The irony about the Pharisees is that TM confronts people harshly about their sins, while Jesus confronted people harshly about their piety. (Also, the Pharisees were the honorable godly elite influential religious statesmen of their day.) Contrary to what you think, pointing out people’s self-righteousness and hypocrisy is a very Christlike attitude– read Matthew 23.
I could go on, but either you’ll see this or you won’t.
May 13, 2010 11:12 AM
Eric P. said…
Also: “your saying that those that have discipline are not [blessed]?”
That would certainly seem to be the point of Matthew 23:25-28, or Colossians 2:20-23.
May 13, 2010 11:21 AM
Cesna said…
I’m pretty sure Jesus called people out when they were high and mighty and self righteous 🙂
AKA Pharisees, AKA Dave Hasz. I think Mr Hasz would get along great with those Pharisee guys, honestly.
My favorite game is coming along to see all the people that have yet to heal from the spirit of religion and legalism, yet still come to this blog to read and get butthurt!
Anon, I pray that you’ll be released from that bondage soon.
RA, keep rockin.
May 13, 2010 12:11 PM
layne said…
“Re: the alcohol comment – Dave Hasz actually said this to some youth leaders when he discovered they had alcohol in their home and drank in moderation. He called them “wicked sinners” in front of a room full of people.”
*raises hand* I can attest to this! I was brought into a disciplinary meeting once (when I was an SA) and was reprimanded for drinking wine (off campus, at my home). I’m not saying that they called me “wicked”, but they treated me as though I’d been caught with a dead body in my trunk.
May 13, 2010 12:21 PM
Anonymous said…
Proverbs 31:4 “It is not for kings, O Lemuel—
not for kings to drink wine,
not for rulers to crave beer,
Proverbs 31:5 lest they drink and forget what the law decrees,
and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
Pretty clear to me. If you’re not a leader and don’t want to be one, have fun!
May 13, 2010 12:36 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
So I guess Jesus wasn’t a leader?
May 13, 2010 12:37 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Man, too bad for Jesus 🙁
Myself? I have absolutely no desire to lead, so thank you; I will be having fun 😉
May 13, 2010 12:41 PM
Anonymous said…
who said Jesus wasn’t a leader?
May 13, 2010 12:58 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Because the lips of Jesus touched wine (and even if He didn’t actually drink it, He obviously wasn’t opposed to it as He prepared it for wedding guests), I guess he was just kidding about that whole King of the Jews thing.
May 13, 2010 1:04 PM
layne said…
“Proverbs 31:4 “It is not for kings, O Lemuel—
not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer,Proverbs 31:5 lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
Pretty clear to me. If you’re not a leader and don’t want to be one, have fun!”
I will continue having my fun, oh yes. And, sweetheart, “leader” usually doesn’t equate to a king or a ruler. I mean, yes, kings and rulers exist and I should hope they lead someone… but I wouldn’t refer to my boss at work as a king or ruler. I would imagine the writer of said Proverb was actually referring to those who make and enforce the laws of the land.
May 13, 2010 1:05 PM
Anonymous said…
Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.” They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.” This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.
John 2:8-11
May 13, 2010 1:52 PM
stephanie said…
The very best “leaders” I know do not have the “aura of a statesman.” They are just very wise, very willing to listen, willing to help others find the way they can be their best in whatever the situation is (at work, in community, whatever).
Jesus, by his nature, walked around an people followed him… you find this a lot. A person has wisdom, has a way about them, and people start to gather… It is only after there is a group of people that the leader has to make decisions about being a leader. And the biggest decision is, will I continue to be who i am, and treat those who come to me with love as my equals… or do I try to use these people to accomplish some goal.
May 13, 2010 2:36 PM
TruthInLoveSucksSometimes said…
On Alchohol….
Luke 7:33-34
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners”‘.
Gosh Jesus, so much for avoiding all “appearances of evil”.
Now if your a drunkard….then you have a problem:
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Pro 23:20 Be not among wine-bibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe [a man] with rags. (ASV)
But if your tum tum hurts:
1 Timothy 5:23, “Do not drink water any longer, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent cases of sickness.”
Etc…Etc…:
Deuteronomy14: 22-26
22.Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.
23.Eat the tithe of your grain, new WINE and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.
24.But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away),
25.then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose.
26.Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep,WINE or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.
Jesus drank wine so get over it already.
I do drink, but have never been drunk in my life. (And don’t think I haven’t had the opportunity or reason!)
Maybe it would be wise to teach someone moderation and the use of good judgement. Instead of preaching fear and shame for drinking something JESUS DRANK: and then having that person jump off the deep end because they are not Christian enough to stay away from something JESUS DRANK.
And BTW…I am a leader …in a church.
(Don’t pass out or anything.)
May 13, 2010 5:55 PM
Jeremy said…
I’m not opposed to pointing out flaws…or confronting someone when they are clearly in the wrong. but only if will help them better themselves and help them get back on the right path. how exactly is this blog helping TM? just curious.
May 13, 2010 6:17 PM
Anonymous said…
@ TruthInLoveSucksSometimes
I’m not preaching fear or shame. You certainly can’t take this discussion so far as to say that the Bible prohibits drinking. It doesn’t.
However, perhaps you are not aware that the government holds you responsible if someone you host gets in an accident or hurts another person because they got drunk at your party. Do some research on “social host liability”. Are you willing to accept full responsibility for the actions of your friends when they drive home?
Now consider a scenario where you are discipling a friend who struggles with alcoholism. Your “just one” is ok for you, but what if your “just one” makes it ok for your friend to try “just one”. Are you responsible for that? 1 Cor. 10:23 and 24 puts an interesting spin on the answer to that question.
In summary: Is it ok? Yes. Is it wise if you are in leadership? I don’t really think so. You’re free to have your own opinion. Mine was formed after watching an alcoholic start drinking (not with me or at my event) because they knew I did… it was further enforced after watching a different friend leave my party drunk. If my friends drink (and commit a crime or sin because of their actions), I don’t want to have to stand in front of God someday and explain the one time they saw me with a drink in my hand.
It’s all about what you say with your actions. What you think you are saying isn’t always what other people hear.
Like you, I’m in leadership. Unfortunately, I had to learn the hard way.
Anon 12:36
May 13, 2010 6:59 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Oh, look, more irony!!
TM says you shouldn’t drink because you will be responsible for leading others astray. This seems to be the only time its kosher to blame someone else for your problems. On any other topic, its “You are responsible for your own actions! You have to look to man, not God!”
Last anon – I’m not disagreeing with you – just pointing out that if our actions so severely affect others, why does TM discount everything thats happened to us as being unable to move on, bitter, etc? (And that is not directed at you, per se, just an observation.)
May 13, 2010 8:07 PM
TruthInLoveSucksSometimes said…
I did not indicate it prohibited it…but it does suggest moderation. …
I did not mean to indicate that the latter..shame etc was the only option. However I recall the conversations at tm regarding drinking & it was more of an intimidation that we’d be lesser if we did drink…no. longer considered elite.
Do not think I make this decision lightly. I come from a family that includes two siblings that are currently functiong alcoholics.& uncles who are as well. I get the 3 am calls for pick UPS and search and find missons.
My mother was convinced that I was an alcoholic because I had a sip of champagne at a wedding, no wine or drinks just a sip. I understand all sides.
I know the laws very well. And have hosted many functions with large amounts of people. There have been Christians & non Christians present and guess what…no one got smashed and everyone drank.
I can understand college frat parties. I suppose it is the type of environment created & the type of people there.. Not all of events where alcohol is present involve tomfoolery.
I have seen those leaders in churches who have people who look up to them. People that get so obsessed with these leaders instead of being obsessed with Jesus. Is that not wrong also?
I would much rather point someone to the Ultimate example and not my own because that just doesn’t seem to kosher to me.
May 13, 2010 8:45 PM
TruthInLoveSucksSometimes said…
Oh and I would never tell an alcoholic that one is ok.
Cause that’s not using good judgement.
If you are dicipling someone and /or acting as a counselor then you are giving advice based on that persons issues. Your personal choices, not to be confused with experiences, should not be put upon someone.
May 13, 2010 8:58 PM
Anonymous said…
@TruthInLoveSucksSometimes – All I’m going to say is that you should think about what I said. You’re assuming that everyone has the maturity to understand what you mean for them to understand about your actions. People can’t see Jesus – all they can see is you, representing Him. If you are in church leadership, some people will see you instead of Jesus. That’s not right, but it’s real.
RA – “Last anon – I’m not disagreeing with you – just pointing out that if our actions so severely affect others, why does TM discount everything thats happened to us as being unable to move on, bitter, etc? (And that is not directed at you, per se, just an observation.)”
@RA – TM shouldn’t be discounting anyone’s offense. Scripture is clear about doing our best to live at peace with everyone.
Your comment leads me to believe that maybe you misunderstood something though. Unless I’m remembering wrong, the position TM takes is that you should avoid doing something to influence someone else to sin. This is scriptural.
They also teach that you are responsible for your own actions and yes, you have to look to God, not man. Notice that I didn’t say “solely responsible”.
The first point addresses the issue of your behavior influencing someone else. The second point addresses the issue of someone else’s behavior influencing you. The two aren’t necessarily independent… and I think that’s why they may get confusing.
As far as “moving on” goes, I don’t believe that we can be effective in our lives if we stop everything because we were hurt. If I stop fulfilling the calling that God has on my life because Teen Mania hurt my feelings, I’ve ceased to be effective for what God called me to do. I’m responsible for the keys to my life.
Teen Mania shouldn’t be discounting anyone’s offense. They have in the past, but I don’t think they are now… the fact that the board of directors has started an investigation tells me that they are moving forward and that they are paying attention.
In the meantime, I really hope that the people who read this blog and the people who have posted their stories will live for today. Teen Mania doesn’t give us a reason for living. Jesus did.
May 13, 2010 9:44 PM
Stephanie said…
Anon, about living in the now.
I live very much in the now… and that now often involves limping around because my knee hurts. It currently involves dealing with a hamstring pull that is directly related to the way my knee works. If you read/have read my story, you will see that is come directly from my experience with TM and the HA.
Other things are more subtle and it while it’s interesting to note beliefs and behaviors that sprung up from teaching at the HA, I have now come to a point in my life where I can note the source, but focus on the now. But there was a time when I could not do that, where I was going through some crazy stuff, and the residule effects of TM teaching effected me in a very negative way.
All I can say is that a year of being ignored, belittle and shamed can have long lasting effects.
And this comes from someone who is not a TM hater… I just think they need to SEE what is going on… and so often they can’t see it and they choose not to hear it from those who would bring it to light.
May 13, 2010 10:12 PM
Shannon Kish said…
I am really getting tired of these “How is this helping?” “Get Over It” and other crappy comments.
Seriously! “Getting over it” takes time and begins with admitting that you have a problem.
If you don’t see the good in what is going on here then you have a few choices–
1) Move the heck on. Go find a community that supports your views. I have found a community that shares the same struggles that I have dealt with since attending the HA. Now, it is time for you to find a similar community.
2) READ the posts, then, visit the forums. Talk to those of us that have been hurt from a compassionate, Jesus Loves You, mindset rather that the f’ed up, judgmental mindset. Once you do that you will see that we are humans, most of whom love Jesus just as much as you.
3) Continue belittling, questioning, harassing, and hypocritically contradicting the very thing you are “confronting” us on and find yourself or your comments deleted and an entire forum community chomping at the bits to protect their own.
I miss compassionate Christians. I once knew some and have found some in the forums. But, if I were to ever believe in the God of Christianity again, it would have to be sans Christians.
May 13, 2010 11:31 PM
‘Derek’ said…
@Anon9:44 – You said to live in the now, right? For me, the now includes having a panic/anxiety attack when listening to a friends voicemail left for a staff member for them. Yes, very true story. It happened 2 days ago. How do you tell me that the fear, shame, and anxiety that gripped my chest to the point that I thought I was having a heart attack, WHILE DRIVING, isn’t living in the now? How can you say that after 10 YEARS after being dismissed that the fact that poeple from HA are finally contacting me, and saying that they were told NOT to contact me after I was dismissed? We don’t live in the here and now is the stupidest statement I’ve EVER heard. The poeple who have been brave enough to share their stories are living in the now. It is now that they’ve deceided to begin the healing process. It is now that they’ve decided to take a stand against the wrongs that have happened. It is NOW that they’ve decided to show each other the love and COMPASSION that they weren’t shown at TM. Take the blinders off man.
May 14, 2010 7:59 AM
Eric P. said…
My pastor’s from Ireland, where a pint of Guinness is just something you drink when you’re feeling sociable (a la Starbucks). He finds the American religious hang-up over alcohol to be very amusing, and thinks it’s a fine example of how we erroneously treat our own cultural biases as the Word of God.
More irony: Compare “If I stop fulfilling the calling that God has on my life because Teen Mania hurt my feelings, I’ve ceased to be effective for what God called me to do.” with this: “Are you willing to accept full responsibility for the actions of your friends when they drive home?”
Is Teen Mania willing to accept full responsibility for hurting people’s feelings and thus keeping them from God’s call?
Also, did I miss the part where Jesus said “Blessed are the effective”? Can being “effective” keep you from being “meek” or “poor in spirit”? Worthy of some discussion, perhaps.
May 14, 2010 9:18 AM
jami c. said…
Eric P., I’m glad your pastor is so amused by the devastation that Americans have allowed alcohol to cause in their lives. He seems like a real winner. Maybe if you could word that differently, I wouldn’t think you were such a doofus.
As for erroneously treating our own cultural biases as the Word of God… maybe that’s what being “All things to all men” sort of translates to. Our own cultural biases are brought on by the foothold we’ve allowed alcohol in our culture… and by the devastation that many have witnessed caused by its abuse. Those are very real and tangible things. And anyone who is amused by them seems pretty ignorant to me.
I drink. My husband drinks. Shiner Bock is a household name. God bless Texas. But I am less than amused by the careless attitudes that many Christians have about alcohol when the shit really hits the fan.
May 14, 2010 10:21 AM
Eric P. said…
Jami C.– Please read my actual words before rewriting them. My pastor “finds the American religious hang-up over alcohol to be very amusing.” Not alcohol abuse; insular religious legalism. A point of view that I’d expect you share with him since you say you drink yourself.
One simply doesn’t find the “True Christianity = Teetotalism” dogma much outside the U.S., even though other countries have no shortage of drinking problems. It’s a U.S. cultural attitude, no doubt justifiable in many ways, but the amusement comes from watching Americans trying to make it the Very Word of God.
I don’t think anybody here, nor my pastor, is arguing that alcohol abuse isn’t the terrible thing it is. But that’s not the issue. We’re rebuking those who are impaired under the influence of spiritual abuse.
May 14, 2010 11:28 AM
TruthInLoveSucksSometimes said…
okk. im back. LOL
to Anon.May 13, 2010 9:44 PM
I can see where you are coming from. But your reality is quite far from my own.
I quite often have meetings with my pastor at an Ale House near our church. We go over schedules while drinking a pint or sometimes nothing at all. While there on several occasions people (who are considered “unchurched” & by that I mean, they are not previous church goers who speak Christianese, most have not set foot in church in decades.)have been suprised that we could talk about church and God and be in a bar…or sipping on a beer. One of the greatest contributers to our church (who accepted Christ and volunteers, etc, etc.)just so happened to be someone who sat next to me during a meeting. I can also say that more than 10 people attending our church who never set foot in one before are indeed attending our church.(All which were met at our meeting spot and this is in the last few months) One of them owns a winery and is a very wise follower of God.
I would leave it up to the convictions of Jesus in our own lives to determine this decision…and venture to say “hey, maybe that is why there was no clear definition of what to do in the Bible.” I can understand your position quite well and maybe that is what God puts upon your heart for you to reach the people He has for you to reach:But for me it would close some doors and conversations. If you think that decision is best for your life and that is your conviction I say great. But I’ve never felt the tugging on my heart while sipping on a drink and talking about God to someone who is also sipping on a drink and is just another one of God’s beautiful messes. Who would I be to tell someone how to live who I only just met?
May 18, 2010 3:26 PM