50 comments:
Anonymoussays:July 29, 2010 at 10:44 AM
Hahahaha!
Oh boy oh boy the memories!
Lots of people need to see this….
Anonymoussays:July 29, 2010 at 11:58 AM
is this a real picture from ESOAL?
Yes.
Shilohsays:July 29, 2010 at 3:21 PM
R.A. I’m really happy that you are exposing ESOAL. I honestly couldn’t really see what the big deal was.
This picture and Emma’s story kinda just made it all clear.
Cause I can see MOST people saying, ‘oh, it’s just ONE picture. That’s not REALLY all ESOAL is!’
And that would be called — living in denial.
wsays:July 29, 2010 at 5:33 PM
wow…just wow…
.aaaannnd I’m sure it was from MANY years ago (not recently)….*sarcasm noted*
Anonymoussays:July 29, 2010 at 6:56 PM
So many of these apply to TMM.
Its like an intern writes half these things.
http://www.despair.com/viewall.html
Brian A
Myndasays:July 29, 2010 at 10:32 PM
Wow… How dead on…
My Husband seems to think that this would be an emotionally stretching situation that would chance a person. But he was wondering what kind of person would they become as a result of it?
C.R.says:August 1, 2010 at 12:47 PM
I showed this to a friend of mine and his first reaction was, “Is this a picture from the marines or something.” I then explained ESOAL to him and he was shocked that it was legal.
Anonymoussays:August 2, 2010 at 1:05 PM
I wonder what would happen if the majority of interns opted out of the optional ESOAL?
Candorsays:August 3, 2010 at 9:24 PM
Unbelievable. And all in the name of God. If this doesn’t scream “cult” I don’t know what does.
Anonymousesays:August 7, 2010 at 12:25 PM
A majority of interns WON’T opt out of ESOAL because this is a CULT. The mind control has programmed them to WANT to do this. Classic cult tactics no matter what they say. If TM wanted to act like “not a cult” then they would stop ESOAL and apologize to all participants for their error and ask for forgivness.
Anon
Anton Sugarsays:October 30, 2010 at 4:50 AM
This is an outrage. What a perfectly good waste of water.
There is something to be said about endurance though, pushing through whatever it takes to accomplish something. The military doesn’t do things like thins just for training its also for personal discovery. Its to discover if you have what it takes to endure anything to accomplish the task at hand. Thats the picture I get when I think of ESOAL. I don’t see it as a cult but as a way to discover how to endure anything, and yes its not completely necessary and its taken to the extreme but were teenagers and we like extreme and the euphoric feeling of accomplishment when we complete something like this. Everybody’s dreamed of what it would be like to be in boot camp. The experience is what YOU make it and depending on YOU it will either be a good on or a bad one.
—IN REPLY TO ANDREW—
I am a Marine veteran Andrew and I have experienced what you have described. The U.S. military has a couple hundred years of experience helping people become useful members of the military, and training (among other things) is done in order to show kids how to be members of a unit, how to expand their horizons as to their capabilities, and increase the odds of their survival in the case of armed combat.
There is also heavy experience among senior members of the training staff as to how to weed out damaging, out of control instructors. Their is also an effective military justice system designed to protect all members of the U.S. military. There is also heavy experience among trainers at becoming good at figuring out which military trainees can belong in which military occupational specialties. People with genuine mental health issues are supposed to be washed out quickly, but being the real world some trainees and trainers slip through the cracks, only to become serious problems later on. The competent senior officers are constantly having to figure out which ones of their own peers even have become problems and possible solutions run from public military court proceeding to less public and sometimes harsh “unofficial” sanctions.
All these things and much more go into military training and military life and oftentimes the successful trainees are called upon to risk their lives over and over again as a trained military man/woman.
Now when I stack the military up against ESOAL I find ESOAL to be wanting on many levels.
Jeff, I completely agree with your statement that ESOAL is found to be wanting. I mean, there are no PROFESSIONALLY trained facilitators for ESOAL, and ANY former SEAL that would condone, or aid, in a BUD/s like experience needs to reevaluate their position on militaristic training for civilians. It does NOT have it’s place unless you are a police officer or in some sort of a protective role.
gracemakesfreesays:February 2, 2011 at 9:59 AM
Well said, Jeff.
Although neither my husband, or myself, ever served in the military, I agree with you. My husband is a huge fan of the show on the military channel that shows the footage of boot camp from the various arms of the military (can’t remember the name of the show). Being someone that went through ESOAL (being told that this was roughly modeled after Navy Seals training), I was really shocked at how much more professional (and frankly kind) the senior officers in the military are in comparison to the facilitators of ESOAL.
Also – I know that in order for individuals to go through “Navy Seals” boot camp, there is a long, drawn out process – complete with a mental / physical evaluation before you even get there. I just read Hannah’s Story part 2 that was posted today and just moments after she admitted to Heath Stoner her struggles (which are both physical and emotional), he signs her up for ESOAL which began that evening – which she had previously “opted-out” of.
Another major problem I see is the role that these facilitators play both inside / outside of ESOAL. Dave Hasz yells at people – insults these participants physically, emotionally and spiritually, then COMPLETELY changes after the event and expect those same participants to respect him as a spiritual leader. Now – when someone is a drill Sergeant, that is their only role. The Chaplain in the military is not out there facilitating boot camp, insulting the officer’s spiritual and emotional stability, then asking them to respect him as a spiritual leader.
Also, the behavior David Hasz is exhibiting IS that of someone who is abusive. Abusers demean people who want their affirmation, then give that affirmation when it suits their (the abuser’s) needs.
I am not saying this was David Hasz’s intention when he began ESOAL, but I am saying that this is where it has gone …
gracemakesfree, you’re thinking for the show “Surviving the Cut” which highlights BUD/s (SEAL training), Air Forces Med Jumpers, Marine Force Recon, and a few other spec ops branchs of the military.
I was impressed with how attentive to the physical needs of a recruit the facilitators were. In the episode of the Combat Diver, a guy passes out under water because they had taken away the regulator of his scuba gear to make him panic. Instead of leaving him there, members of the staff squad dive to him, place a smaller container of air into his mouth to force him to breath, bring him to the surface, and out of the pool to get him back to normal. The recruit then sat the rest of the exercise out.
From Hannah’s story, and others I’ve heard, ESOAL facilitators show no MERCY at all on someone who is injured, sick, or can not handle the mental fatigue of going through this. Oh, and by the way, only the TOP physically and mentally fit solidiers are allowed, what they call THE HONOR, to go through these ADVANCED training programs.
Six months of “corporate” exercises could NEVER prepare you for ESOAL. Hell, 6 YEARS of corporate could not prepare you.
THE following is a multi-part post to keep things under 4,000 or so characters…part#1:
I AM A VETERAN, AND I HAVE FOUND A GROUP THAT SAYS THEY BUILD UPON NAVY SEAL STANDARDS BUT THIS IS MY LATEST POST IN ANOTHER FORUM.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am a Marine veteran Andrew and I have experienced what you have described. The U.S. military has a couple hundred years of experience helping people become useful members of the military, and training (among other things) is done in order to show kids how to be members of a unit, how to expand their horizons as to their capabilities, and increase the odds of their survival in the case of armed combat.
There is also heavy experience among senior members of the training staff as to how to weed out damaging, out of control instructors. Their is also an effective military justice system designed to protect all members of the U.S. military. There is also heavy experience among trainers at becoming good at figuring out which military trainees can belong in which military occupational specialties. People with genuine mental health issues are supposed to be washed out quickly, but being the real world some trainees and trainers slip through the cracks, only to become serious problems later on. The competent senior officers are constantly having to figure out which ones of their own peers even have become problems and possible solutions run from public military court proceeding to less public and sometimes harsh “unofficial” sanctions.
All these things and much more go into military training and military life and oftentimes the successful trainees are called upon to risk their lives over and over again as a trained military man/woman.
Now when I stack the military up against ESOAL I find ESOAL to be wanting on many levels.
(THE LINK FOR THE ABOVE IS, http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2010….html#comments )
PART #2, same post at NavySEALS.com……..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.recoveringalumni.com/ is a website concerning a church group named ESOAL that has pimple faced kids who are still working up the courage to ask someone on a date to go through SEAL style training including that revered “bell” of you SEALs.
Somehow these folks got their trainers into SEAL training facilities in Ca. and now run hundreds of kids through SEAL style training every fall down in Texas. Some may think this is ok, it’s just that if you look this site over you may well find even a jarhead like me is right in thinking they are not doing a good job with your SEAL legacy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THIS EXCERPT IS FROM Hannah’s story, part 2. I don’t think this is what the SEAL brass and possibly some congressman had in mind when the let ESOAL TRAINERS learn at SEAL training facilities, but I’ll let you all make up your own mind…………….
“Anyway, during the meeting, Heath said he would sign me up for ESOAL, which started later that night. I had already signed out of ESOAL because of my knee problems and because I had a wound on my arm that was still healing from a surgery that summer, but Heath kept saying, “Well, why don’t you just try it, you can always ring out?” and stuff like that. So basically, I felt coerced to do ESOAL by Heath Stoner. Before that meeting, I had already signed out and had no intentions of doing it.
On my way to get ready for ESOAL, the girl with the drugs confronted me in the lobby of the dorm. She wanted to know why I snitched on her and I told her it was because the drugs were dangerous. Then she physically wrapped her hands around my neck and choked me and cussed me out. She even followed me back to my room and acted like she wanted to beat me up. I told my dorm director and as far as I know, she did nothing about it.
I knew ESOAL was going to be hard, but I had no idea how hard. They are not joking around. Of course we were doing physical stuff pretty much the whole time but I think the hardest was probably the emotional stuff. One of the girls in my company was on her hands and knees puking and the leaders were yelling at her to get up and run. I couldn’t believe that.
Also, there were a few different times that I wanted to ring out. When I would go tell the leaders, they would tell me that I was being really selfish. How could I leave my company out here while I went to take a warm shower and get in bed. They also asked me if I was going to “ring out of my relationship with God.” It’s weird because they are taunting you the whole time, asking you if you want to ring out but when you actually try to ring out they don’t want to let you. I had to try several times before they would let me ring out.
PART 3#………….
My knee was killing me so I went to the med tent. An intern (she said she was an RN) asked me some questions about my pain level and stuff like that. Then they said they would send someone to check on me in 24 hours. They didn’t even look at my knee or give me ice or anything. The dismissed girl (from the drugs) was also working in the med tent, she tried to follow me out but a staff member stopped her. I really felt unsafe and threatened by her and I was really surprised that they allowed her to stay on campus.
By this time, it was Thursday morning. I called RA back and told her that I wanted to leave after all. She told me to get some rest first before making the decision since I had just rung out of ESOAL. When I woke up later that afternoon, I called her again and asked her to come get me. However, by this time Heath had banned her from campus so she sent a friend to pick me up with all my stuff and I met her in Lindale. The next day, the reporter called RA to ask her about ESOAL and so she asked me to confirm some details. Then the reporter got on the phone with me and asked me if I would give an interview. So, I did. And then I flew home the next day.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Look this site over if you wish SEALs, I think your traditions are right now in the hands of some real idiots and washouts!
To be clear…the preceeding three posts comprise the entire of one post I did at NavySEALs.com Forums.
Anonymoussays:June 14, 2011 at 6:23 PM
hi, i am an intern-to-be and i would like to say that this entire debate (is ESOAL good, bad, occultic, etc..)has completely missed the point. life is not gonna play fair, surely the devil isn’t gonna give an in-depth interview to determine whether or not one is right for the type of activities expressed in the program. that being said, the entire point is to TRUST in God. trust in him to suppply strength (in a controlled environment), trust in him to find security, trust in him when your teacher becomes your drill sergent. the point is rely on God here, so that you know you can rely on him out there. pornography, addictions, everything under the sun is waiting in life to meet the intern…and here we are arguing about whether a silly event is harming the intern’s feelings…
heartsfiresays:June 14, 2011 at 7:29 PM
Intern to-be you having not been there and not gone through it only know what other interns who are forced to say such things (because they are in the TM marketing department) tell you. FYI going through ESOAL won’t make you trust God less or more when your husband has been cheating on you for a year. It won’t make you think to look to God more when you lose a child because it’s NOTHING Like that. ESOAL is an arbitrary physical exhausting mentally and emotionally abusive event that if anything will make you think of how much you lack GOD when you really don’t. It will drive you further from God and more toward trying to be perfect under your own merits. You will lose God’s grace for Teen Mania’s legalism. So sure if you think that’s Godly go ahead and do it but it won’t help outside that event. It will short term make you think you are awesome for having relied on God even more, it will cause you to look at those who haven’t been through it as less. The point is It doesn’t change if you will turn to God in the tough stuff But it does potentially cause injury and flashbacks for several years after that moment. The thing is I have seen more people TURN FROM GOD after a hard event after doing ESOAL than I have from those that haven’t done it so perhaps you really should examine what GOD says about arbitrary physical/mental/emotional abuse which is what is going on here. It’s pretty condemning for those who do it.
Anonymoussays:August 10, 2011 at 11:49 PM
Hi, I graduated from the HA in august 2010 and ive been reading this for a long time and I have a few words to say. Matthew 18 says we should confront brothers in Christ if we have a problem with them or with what their doing. Sure Esoal may be all the things you said above, but its a 1 week voluntary experience at the HA. You dont have to do it. I rang out of Esoal, and everyone still smiled and shook my hand said how great of a job I did. I didnt feel any less of myself at Esoal, it was a good experience. But anyways, the HA isnt just about Esoal. I hear so much about it on this site, and im thinking wow a 1 week experience that isnt required is being argued about this much, unbelievable. If you have a problem with Esoal or the HA, then talk you need to take it up with them, not start a gossip column or whatever you want to call it. Thats a problem with the church today, we need to stop thinking about little issues and get over our selfish ways and think about God. Read Matthew 18 and stop making chaos in the church body.
Anonymous – Please read the first link under the “Frequent Objections” tab at the top.
Aww, how sweet Anon. Thanks for that.
But, wait…. we have gone to our brother (multiple times) and he has ignored us (every time). We took 2 or 3 with us (again, multiple times) and he still ignored us (every time).
So, it seems that we have followed Matthew 18, quite down to the T. We are currently at the church phase of Matt 18.
You need to look up the word “gossip” in the dictionary because you misused it in your post.
Anonymoussays:August 18, 2011 at 10:16 AM
get a life
What kind of “life” would you like for me to get Anon? I actually have a fulfilling life at the moment. How about you?
Anon-
If the purpose of this blog is for “RECOVERING ALUMNI” and you have been reading it for some time now, what is your purpose of reading it? I can only think of a few which would be to try to teach others like Shannon, RA, etc .a lesson by commenting with cliche Bible verses, or perhaps to gossip yourself since you believe this is about gossip, or because you think it is Christlike to minimize other people’s pain. It’s good you don’t have lingering issues (or so you think) after attending HA. But others do. And is incredibly insensitive to minimize that. And if you had been actually reading as you say, you would have noticed RA (and many others separately including myself) have gone to HA staff repeatedly about the many objections on this blog. Together and separately.
“Sure Esoal may be all the things you said above, but…”
If ESOAL is all the things we said above, then why is it even an option for anyone? No Christian should treat anyone that way, period, even if it’s “voluntary.” (And just because something is presented as voluntary doesn’t mean it really is optional; look up the phenomenon called “bounded choice,” very common in cults.)
On Matthew 18 and the rest, check out the “common objections” tab in the header above. 🙂 See also the synopsis of this site’s history with Teen Mania. Been there, done that, got the “It pays to be a winner” t-shirt. (Note to RA, that link should probably be in the header too.)
2010alumnisays:August 19, 2011 at 2:36 PM
Well with all this unrest about ESOAL…. maybe it might be a good time to mention that it from this point on will not officially be referred to as ESOAL. It is officially called the PEARL LTE. (Physical, Emotional and Relational Learning LTE)
> “It is officially called the PEARL LTE. (Physical, Emotional and Relational Learning LTE).”
Let the “pearls before swine” jokes begin!
Nunquam Honorablussays:August 19, 2011 at 3:07 PM
Eric wins.
Nunquam Honorablussays:August 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM
Though I have to wonder- after that “investigation” on ESOAL (oops, I mean PEARL), is a name change all that’s come of it? I hope there’s more changes to the event than the acronym that encapsulates it.
It’s just as William Shakespeare once said: “a rose by any other name can still stab a bitch even if you call it a daisy”.
(That may not be a direct quote- cut me some slack, I learned how to reference timeless literature at Teen Mania)
Lisasays:August 19, 2011 at 6:32 PM
*applause*
Yes Eric. Yes.
I’m ready for “we don’t even do ESOAL anymore so, see how much things have changed??”
2010alumnisays:August 19, 2011 at 9:49 PM
Check out this video: Dave Hasz talks about the announces PEARL
http://www.honoracademydirector.com/2011/08/20/honor-academy-announces-pearl-lte/
Nunquam Honorablussays:August 19, 2011 at 10:18 PM
… He’s a genius.
Anonymoussays:September 13, 2011 at 10:33 AM
I have been reading all of these posts. I really appreciate all the honesty and genuine concern that you all have but i’m wondering, how can we call this love? Bashing a ministry that God is using to reach thousands of people each and every year, i believe is not right. I was an intern last year and graduated about a month ago and i can confidently tell you that ESOAL (PEARL) never “ruined” me. It was obviously very stretching and would not have been possible but by the grace of God. Please be careful of what you say on here especially if you have never done ESOAL. Be careful not to go by hear-say. We’re called to love and not bash.
Anon – Please read the posts under the frequent objections tab at the top of the page. Your concerns are addressed there.
Future Cult Leadersays:September 13, 2011 at 11:19 AM
Anon – ESOAL never ruined you – but it isn’t normal. It isn’t godly. It is a power trip. It is essentially Christian sadism. There is no need. I did ESOAL as a participant and then as a facilitator. What is David Hasz so famous for saying all the time “avoid the appearance of evil”. And you know what – ESOAL is full of the appearance of evil. Notice the double standard. Teen Mania will use that to coerce interns into behaving as they wish – but when it comes down to TMM avoiding the appearance of evil – they do whatever they want. The RA community tried to seek change through appropriate avenues. Read through the blog. We tried – yet in the end a lot of what we said was brushed under the rug. Yes good things have happened to people involved with TMM but that doesn’t mean the operation is good and holy. “We are called to love and not bash” – I don’t think Jesus “loved” the money changers. He was furious. We have a similar anger to call out the crap being done and to try and get it changed. TMM has shown they don’t care about making changes if it effects their control over young people – so now we can only make people aware of the truth. If the truth makes you uncomfortable – please don’t come to the site.
Jesus said do not test the lord your God, that he didn’t need to jump from the temple to believe God would send his angels to protect him, So the same goes for for us today. Luke 4:9-12 is the reference for that if you need it. What ESOAL does is say, It isn’t enough to stand on the promises for when I really need them I need to Test these things in a false environment. That certainly isn’t biblical.
Anonymoussays:September 13, 2011 at 12:35 PM
Future Cult Leader,
The truth does not make me uncomfortable at all. I would not have voiced my opinion if i didn’t care about any of this, but i do. And you saying that Jesus didn’t love the money changers is absolutely wrong because the opposite of love is hate/fear, and Jesus never hated anybody.
ESOAL has no appearance of evil that i am aware of. All this said, i’m not here to change your mind because you have your views and beliefs, but i do encourage you to pray and ask God to give you a heart of love.
I do not see the need to keep coming here and posting and commenting because everyone already has their view on what they think of all this. But thanks for taking the time to read this and have a blessed day in the Lord.
Anon –
Your post is unclear and could be taken two ways:
(1) One should never criticize “a ministry that God is using” (TM according to your post)
(2) The extent/method of criticism being used is inappropriate (implied by the term “bash”)
I was curious about which argument you are making as they are mutually exclusive.
Renaesays:September 14, 2011 at 4:20 PM
Anonymous–you are right, Jesus certainly never hated anyone. But what you’re telling us is that we shouldn’t “bash” Teen Mania and that perhaps some of what is said here is hearsay. Jesus definitely loved the money changers, but he certainly didn’t tolerate them taking advantage of others. What he did to them certainly looked very unloving. We are exposing some pretty awful things in Teen Mania. It probably looks unloving of us, especially to those who love Teen Mania. But, we are doing it precisely because we do love people. We love the people who are being hurt by TM, and we want to see it stop. Just because we are (justifiably) angry at Teen Mania does not mean we don’t love them. And we aren’t even driving them out of the compound with homemade whips.
Christian ;Dsays:November 7, 2011 at 9:52 PM
I am an intern to be, and I saw this pic and was like what! read about it, got pumped to look for my physical/spiritual/emotion limits.. then was saddened to find out they changed it to the PEARL because its suppose to be a lot less physical.. but I have attended the Extreme Camp this summer and saw so many kids in my youth group changed for Christ. I love what the Honor Academy is doing in the world and can’t wait to be a part of it.
Anonymoussays:November 14, 2011 at 11:53 AM
Do you love Dave Hasz?
Alright, I have one thing to say… Becoming an intern at the Honor Academy is completely optional. During my short time as an intern I was able to see the great hearts that the people there have for each other, and what they provide through their ministries. Do they have everything right? Absolutely not. Are their hearts in the right place though? Absolutely. I was told over and over again before starting my internship, “This will be a very stretching experience.. They don’t mind control people there… People go there with intention to stretch themselves as people, and deepen their love with God. If you want to give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, I’m positive they’d embrace it. Stop dividing the body of Christ.
Brownb92: If you read the comments above, you’d see that this website has indeed presented constructive criticism to Teen Mania leadership in the past. Read the story starting at this link. After reading it, are you still positive they will embrace it? Would you still say their hearts are in the right place if your experience had been like one of these, and TM leaders had responded that same way to you?
The premise that you have to “stretch yourself” to “deepen your love with God” is unbiblical. “Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.” (Colossians 2:23)
If someone points out that some of the sheep are in fact wolves in sheep’s clothing, they’re not dividing the flock– they’re defending it.
bmcsays:December 7, 2012 at 7:07 AM
Brownb92 you are right. The HA is NOT for everyone, but those who it is for are truely blessed by it and we should be happy for those people.
bmc,
Thank you for your contribution. I have to say that most of the community here would disagree.
Spiritual abuse is for no one. Those who speak out about it are not weak and it doesn’t mean the HA wasn’t “for us.” TM specifically marketed it to us. There was no disclosure of the abuses that would be experienced there.
Granted, this kind of abuse happens in other religions and throughout Christianity. But that doesn’t make it okay.
Personally, I’m happy for anyone who gets through the HA unscathed. But from my experience with the past 12 years, very few do.