While I’ve discussed specific incidents, I have never given an overview of my own story and why I left. I’ve been asked why I stayed a 2nd year if the Honor Academy was so terrible. Hopefully, this will answer that question.
Though raised in a Christian home, I got saved at an ATF at 15 years old. I went to the ATF every year and couldn’t wait to go to the Honor Academy – which I perceived to be a 24 hour a day ATF (which is pretty close to the truth). I say this to let you know I was eager to go. I dove in with all my energy and absolutely zero skepticism.
My first year as an intern was amazing. So many new experiences, being on my own for the first time, feeling like I was a part of something important, growing in my passion for God, making great friends. All these things were wonderful. I LOVED Teen Mania. I soon became the model intern. I followed every single teaching. I had a high profile ministry placement (job), I became an ACA my second semester (basically the leader of the dorm room). Because of my strong personality, I soon developed a reputation in the internship as a person who was very passionate for the Lord.
Why wouldn’t I want to stay as a graduate intern? I applied and was accepted to stay a 2nd year and mentor the next class of interns.
That is when the trouble started.
I can almost remember the exact week in the fall when it started. Very suddenly, my quiet times became dry. I couldn’t sense the Lord’s presence in worship. I couldn’t hear Him speak to me. The Bible seemed lifeless. It was very peculiar. After a year of living on a perpetual spiritual high, it was like the rug had been pulled out from under me.
I didn’t panic at first. I figured I must be in some kind of sin. I repented of everything I could think of and threw myself even harder into seeking the Lord. Praying harder, worshiping harder, etc. Still, nothing seemed to change.
As the weeks went on, I was pouring out constantly to the people in my core, yet never felt like the Lord was filling me back up in any way. I just felt emptier and emptier so I did what any good intern would do. I read some books. I tried to figure out what was wrong. I must be giving into my flesh in some way. I must be in sin. I spent nearly ever waking moment trying to fix this problem and it only got worse.
By the time I came back from Christmas break, burn out was starting to set in. The feverish pace of the internship, coupled with the burdens I felt for the interns I was responsible were rapidly depleting me spiritually and emotionally. Still, God felt far away. The way in which God seemed to vanish from my life was so sudden and so complete, I was becoming quite distressed.
I spoke with my advisor and other staff members about it. No one seemed to have an answer or any comfort to give me. The most oft repeated phrase I heard was “God never changes. If you are feeling far from God it’s because you moved, not Him.” Even though I knew in my heart I had not moved away from Him, that attitude only heaped more guilt on me and I was being crushed under the weight of it. I was trying with all my might to be the Christian I was taught to be at the Honor Academy, and it wasn’t working.
I started questioning the leadership about some things. This did not endear me to them. Dave never came out and said anything directly to me, but I got the distinct impression that I was considered (at least by him) to be the black sheep of the GI class.
I continued doing all my GI duties. In fact, during this time I had a stellar reputation among the interns on campus. I was given lots of praise by other interns. Nobody knew I was dying inside.
In the spring, I finally went to Dave Hasz to discuss my situation with Him and get some advice. I told Him that I couldn’t feel God anymore and that I hadn’t for a long time. He callously explained to me that it must be for one of 5 reasons (which I remember b/c he ticked them off using his fingers). Was I reading the Bible enough? Check. Was I praying enough? Check. Did I repent of all sin? Check. Was I involved in a local church? Well, I went to the Potter’s House in Dallas every week (2 hours away) – but that was the extent of my involvement. He pounced on that. “You need to get more involved in a local church,” he said. That is the reason for your problem.
So, I’m working at a ministry full time, mentoring 18 people, having a one hour quiet time every day, countless worship sessions and chapel services, core meeting, accountability partner, outreaches, etc – and yet my problem is that I am not involved in a local church enough? And that is why I can’t feel God’s presence? I was at the end of my rope. There was absolutely nothing more I could do to seek God or prove my desire for Him. I was completely spent and emptier than ever.
Unfortunately, Dave’s response only cemented in my mind that my experience was outside the Christian norm. There was no viable reason why I should feel disconnected from God (or so I thought) so there must be something inherently wrong with me. Cue the crushing guilt and depression.
By late spring, my depression had moved to the point of suicidal thoughts. I felt that since God had left me, and there was obviously nothing I could do to get Him back, that life was not worth living. Luckily, my family sensed how unhealthy I was becoming and encouraged me to come home.
Leaving the internship saved my sanity. I only wish I had done it earlier.
Although I left the internship, the internship did not leave me. That story spans many years and in some ways it continues to this day.
239 comments:
Thanks for posting your story. I remember that feeling, the feeling of loss and confusion amidst a controversy with God. I remember feeling isolated and broken without anyone to go to. The sensation that something was very awry, but without an outlet for this dissonance everything seemed huge and wrong and dark and my responsibility. What a crushing experience.
Phil
I went through a similar experience as a young adult. I was not an intern but had gone on two mission trips with them (including one of the early ones in ’88 where Ron and Katie were actually my Team and group leaders). I could not hear the voice of God and when I would talk to people about this (people I considered spiritual leaders in my church and life) they would say I wasn’t listening hard enough or that it was that “quiet voice” in my head. I kept saying that the Bible says, “My sheep will hear Me and know My voice” and that I wanted to hear God and KNOW that it was God and not just make grand assumptions on what was or was not the voice of God.
I can remember spending hours crying in my closet as a young teen because God didn’t speak to me the way he spoke to other people. As if being a teen isn’t hard enough on its own without pouring on evangelical guilt.
Thanks for commenting on my website and for sharing your story. I really appreciate the work you’re doing to help expose what is unquestionably one of the most spiritually abusive “ministries” I’ve ever heard of. I wish this site had been around a few years ago when I was trying to persuade some of my acquaintances that being involved in the HA was bad for their spiritual health!
You asked for my story, and I’d love to help, but the only direct experience I have with TM is the accounts of some friends / acquaintances who have been involved in the Honor Academy. Everything you have on your website matches (note for note) the same abusive pattern they described in such glowing terms. (That’s the scariest part to me– the interns come to think Jesus is like this, and that that’s a good thing.) I may dig through my files and see if there is anything I can share without breaking any confidences.
Thanks again. I think I’ll post some more anti-Spiritual Abuse articles on my website now. 🙂
Dear Recovering,
It’s John Weaver from Against Biblical Counseling. I wish you’d do a guest post, or several, on my blog. I’m getting so many posts from Battlecry fanatics that I can’t respond to them each in turn. Hope you are well.
John
my meeting with dave hasz about whether TM agreed with ‘word faith’ teachers or not was equally unhelpful.
also, it’s good to hear your story. i’ve wondered just how that all went. you’re doing a good thing.
@ben–
what did dave hasz have to say about ‘word faith’ teachers & tm? i’m curious to hear their position.
several years out…there are many questions i wish i would have thought to ask while i was there; that being one of them.
@Anonymous
he didn’t say anything definitive, which was really the main problem with the conversation. he did say that he’s less inclined to the benny hinn types than ron is, e.g. ron wanted benny hinn to be a guest speaker and dave said no to that, although he was on campus for a tour.
the conversation mostly became an argument over the legitimacy of being ‘slain in the spirit’ and whether heretical things that benny hinn and others have said were quoted in context proper context or not.
the fact that the main subject was never really addressed should have sent red flags everywhere in my head, but i still struggled with a decision to leave for a few more months. honestly, their ‘official’ position doesn’t matter as much as how widely accepted it is on campus in general. there’s word faith teachers’ books in the library (and remember how emphatic dave was on knowing about the author of books you read. i assume the same would go for the books they have available.), and i know that when i was there the girls had a speaker who called people forward to be slain in the spirit.
to top it all off, when i was there in fall ’02, benny hinn had a crusade in dallas, and not only did a core leader take his core to it, but ron luce was there on stage with him. if that’s not endorsement, i don’t know what is.
“honestly, their ‘official’ position doesn’t matter as much as how widely accepted it is on campus in general.”
it’s so true. when i was there, they had a speaker in to chapel who preached on the Holy Spirit, and at the end of his sermon called the internship forward to recieve the ‘baptism by fire’. i was one of a handful of interns who did NOT go forward [i have a background in an abusive charismatic church], and was then confronted by my CA over lunch for my lack of trust and belief, and then persuaded that i was somehow lacking in my life and without the Holy Spirit, I was not operating fully as a believer.
i can’t for the life of me remember the speaker’s name, but that should have a been a much, much larger red flag than it was at the time. i think i was still trying to convince myself it was a one-time thing.
They were definitely “word of faith” back in the early days. We went to some big faith healing service at a stadium in Costa Rica in ’88 with the team (some Benny Hinn type, I don’t recall who it was) and I remember a great deal of emphasis being placed on healings and miracles and there was plenty of speaking in tongues and being slain by the spirit.
Are they distancing themsevles from that now? Going for a more mainstream appeal?
They actually used to include baptism in the Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues in their statement of faith, but it’s been removed since at least 2001. it was still taught in the spiritual formation class when i was there, but i think they had toned it down a little as far as nearly equating it to salvation. they just treated it as a fuller experience.
Thank you so much for writing about your experience! I became very depressed and suicidal during my mission trip with Teen Mania. The depression and suicidal thoughts continued to follow me long after I returned (pretty much my entire high school career). I also started having intrusive thoughts shortly after returning from TM. I too spent hours crying in my closet.
It was so confusing. Ron had said if I went on a mission trip it would change my life. I really believed that would be a positive change. I never would have left home if I had known the spiritual abuse that really lay ahead.
Anonymous,
Would you like to share more about your story? What happened that made you feel depressed and suicidal?
I would just like to say that if it weren’t for the Honor Academy, I would still be ignoring God and living a life full of sin comfortably. Yes, the Honor Academy pushes you out of your comfort zone and to your limits but I guess it just takes a certain breed of person to go through it. There is so much hate on the Honor Academy but people hardly post about the GREAT things that they do at the H.A. Lastly I want to say that I think people are too dependent on Dave Hasz to help them fix their problems, yes he is the director here and he is a great mentor but he is not perfect, he is a person just like everyone. Anyways, I think he is doing an awesome job.
What do you mean by “a certain breed of person?”
How long have you been out of the Honor Academy?
Anonymous,
I also think your choice of wording is interesting. You say you would be “ignoring God and living a life full of sin comfortably.” As always with the HA, I hear a lot about sin, but not about love. As if the point of the Christian life was to not sin.
See my post on Recover: Part 3 for more info.
I have trouble believing that someone would have the choice between a) doing the internship or b) ignoring God and living a life full of sin comfortably.
For someone to be at the point they are considering the internship, they must already be close to God and want to do away with sin in their life. I don’t think sincere feelings like that go away just because that person doesn’t actually end up attending the internship.
Just to let everyone out there know, I never attended the internship, AND I am not ignoring God OR living in sin comfortably. It is possible to follow God and repent of your sin WITHOUT EVER ATTENDING THE HA! You don’t have to choose one or the other!
I was a Jan intern and would be graduating in just a short couple of weeks but left because mr.luce refused to answer questions I had. If people who were supposed to be my leaders wouldnt answer simple question then what kind of leaders are they? I personally love mr hasz and I love the jan interns but coming home from the internship i litterly layed in my bed for 2 weeks crying because I didnt know what to do.
Recovering Alumni,
I’m so sorry to read this. It is a tragedy that Dave would tell you that the root of your problem was lack of church involvement. Of course, when someone doesn’t “feel God” it could be due to some sin, but it is not necessarily the case!
It seems to me that the leadership of TM struggles with the same sin that Job’s friends struggled with. Job’s friends viewed God as a vending machine. Put your obedience in; get your blessing out. Job was clearly suffering, so Job’s friends did the math – based on their vending machine theology – and concluded that Job must be in some kind of sin. And so, on top of Job’s suffering, he had to deal with the “wisdom” of the “spiritual elite.” This was so exasperating to Job that at one point he sarcastically replied, “Surely wisdom will die with you!”
If anyone ever comes to me saying, “I don’t feel God,” I will do my best to listen to their plight. If it was obvious to me that they were living in some kind of sin, I might rebuke them for this, but I would not assume that because they were suffering (physically, spiritually, or emotionally) that they were in some kind of sin.
Jesus never sinned, yet he was not unfamiliar with suffering. And Jesus not only felt like God had turned his back on Him. God did turn His back on Him when He was dying on the cross. And Jesus cried out, “My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?”
It is hard to exaggerate the damage that is done by vending machine theology. Job is the first book of the Bible that was written. The whole point of the book of Job is that vending machine theology is wrong. The God we worship made a decision – for reasons we do not know – to enter into a wager with Satan. God allowed Satan to torment Job. God allowed Satan to wipe out all of Job’s children. And then God allowed Job to suffer for a long time. And then God allowed Job’s self-righteous vending machine theology friends to torment Job with “encouragement” to repent. In the end, God does not tell us why He did this. But one thing is sure: God does not believe in vending machine theology.
Therefore, let us be compassionate toward one another.
Dan Hillman
Dan, for the first time, I fully agree with you here.
To the commenter I just deleted, please read my Comment Policy
ok so i have been praying as well as talking to a recruiter at HA about becoming an intern and i was so sure that the HA was where God wanted me. But after stumbling upon your blog im not sure now what God wants. I read lot of peoples stories and started thinking about my experience with TM when I volunteered at ATF last year. A lot of things that were said in your blog make sense. Even some things my recruiter is saying sounds smiler to the accusation that have been made on your blog. I guess i just don’t now what to do I really cant handle any more abuse and there r some many other thing i could do with my time like go to collage. I already have a hard enough tme with trusting people i just cant go through much more crap. I just need to know what to do should I go will it be worth it i just don’t know now? Some one please help
I’m grateful that you have shared this opinion and although I am currently an intern and do not plan on leaving, I respect your conclusions and your story. But I want to leave you with two points to consider.
1. No organization is perfect. Of course they try to be as best they can, but if Jesus were the head of Teen Mania there would probably be some differences – albeit few – between where they are now and where He would have them.
2. Sometimes God leaves us to test our faith. This is not uncommon as some people would tell you and is biblically supported as well. The problem may have simply been a test, or it could have been something such as God not wanting you to go for a second year. I find the more I pursue God and grow in my relationship, the more He expects from me and the more severe the consequences are.
I’m not saying this WAS the problem, but I am saying it COULD HAVE BEEN the problem.
-Timothy Heffelbower
Timothy, I appreciate the respect in your comment. It shows a lot of maturity. I do think there was an element of “testing” so to speak in my story, but that does not negate the harmful things that I experienced at the hands of ministry leaders.
guys, i see some spiritual immaturity, if you thought that walking with Lord is smooth, am sorry, it is not, sometimes you go through the dessert and try to finde God in vain, but he does not leave you. I dont thi9nk TM is abusive or anything, if anything, all ministries are run by people and so they make mistakes, maturity is to understand this and seek God, personally and develop a personal relationship with God
Last anonymous- you completely and woefully missed the entire point.
That’s exactly what RA is saying, about sometimes going through the desert (as opposed to the “dessert”, which WOULD make walking with the Lord much smoother) in your walk with the Lord.
Please, read the whole thing.
Yes, I totally agree that it was spiritual immaturity. And its what I was taught at the Honor Academy.
My name is Mikaela and I am a recovering cult member. 😉 I love what you’re doing with this site. I was an HA intern 2000-2001, i stayed for the entire year and graduated, and yes my experience was extremely traumatic. it’s not something i think or talk about often and definitely not something i’d be able to blog about yet (still, 8+ years later), but i’m glad that someone is able to. when i do try to share my memories with other people, they usually accuse me of lying or exaggerating. no, guys, it was really that crazy. after being a ridiculously fanatic christian for the first 18 years of my life, i actually went atheist about 6 months after i finished my internship, but i wouldn’t say that decision was caused by my experience at “the cult” (that’s what i’ve called it since graduation). i think the best thing i got out of that year of hell was some awesome twisted ideas for the short stories i write.
Anyway, whoever you are, i also suffered physical and psychological damages at the HA and when i’m ready to discuss them maybe i’ll send you my official story (“My Testimony” LOL). Keep doing what you’re doing. if any teens out there are trying to decide whether or not to join the HA, i hope they find your blog first. It could save them a lot of pain.
Mikaela – I’m so sorry to hear that. I do look forward to reading your story when you are ready to share it. I know that there are many alumni that have become atheist since the internship and I would like to be able to give them a voice in this conversation.
Dude. It’s time to move on. Seriously an entire blog bent on crying and whining about an organization. Yeah, maybe they did some messed up stuff… but Seriously re-living it over and over just seems a bit immature. My guess is that “recovering alumni” is some self-proclaimed know-it-all that get’s his self importance from bashing an organization he left some time ago, calling it a forum is his way of making himself feel better about what he’s doing… I suspect that deep down inside he knows this is all a bit childish… but I don’t suspect this post will last because as most children they cover their ears when they hear something they don’t want to (or in this case will just delete it) Grow a pair and open this up for a real debate.
Ok, what would you like to debate? Seems you haven’t actually countered any of my arguments….
he wont open it up for a real debate he only wants opinions that are the same as his own, birds of a feather.
You can cry all you want about censorship…but I’ve published several comments I don’t necessarily agree with because they were presented with respect. Read the comment policy. You are on your last chance – either converse respectfully or be deleted.
Dude. I just challenged the entire premise of your blog. I have had some dealings with TM… I know they are not perfect, (not even close) infact some people are just plain… lets just say out of it. But, you’ve got to move on… This is a major blog that no doubt comsumes allot of your time. You voted with your feet and left, good for you. I actually have seen some people really helped by TM don’t thow the baby out with the bath water. If it’s not for you fine. But I’d be careful how you bash them, simply put it’s not Christ like. And as for the whole Word of Faith thing… Paul in Romans 8 refers to himself as a Word of Faith preacher.
As per your “whining and crying” comments, see my posts on the grieving process and the purpose of this blog, as well as my post “Bitter, Rebellious or Just Plain Disobedient.” I have already addressed your comments in those posts and multiple other places. Why should I re-address them everytime a new person comes along and demand I answer to them?
You’d probably be suprised to know that I actually have moved on. Now I am going back to help others. If this blog isn’t helpful to you, please don’t feel the need to read it.
Unfortunately, your word of faith comment shows a large gap in your understanding of Bible interpretation. The common, modern, American usage of “word of faith” it not the necessarily the same as the Hebrew meaning Paul was referencing 2000 years ago.
And when have I ever even brought up the Word of Faith movement anywhere on this blog????
So I have been thinking about going to the Honor Academy. I have been in college 2 years. I am definitely not in the same place mentally now as I was right out of high school and I am wondering if that is why kids are easily brainwashed? I want to go to give God a year of my life.(Not Ron and Dave) I would hope that when they speak they back everything up with scripture and what they are teaching is truth. I would also hope that everyone there if given half scripture they would read the rest and figure out if what they say is correct. I have dealt with many people taking things out of context in the Bible and using it for their purpose/point. I am majoring in graphic design and thought it would be awesome to use my talents for events such as ATF. And if you all had such bad experiences while there, why was that? why do others have such great experiences? I just would like to know any of yalls reason that going will pull me further from God than getting closer…
I do understand how it could be hard to go back to the real world after living in a constant Jesus high for a year. Plus constantly being around people who love God and are helping you stand up against sin.
Oh and why does TM need 4 months of the money up front? and doesnt it seem weird they want you to fundraise for something that is school credit? and isnt just missions… I have an issue with that.
So please let me know what you think about me going.
Thanks!
Kimberly,
It sounds like you may need to read more of the posts around the site and the personal stories and following comments, especially. I think that will hopefully answer a lot of your questions.
I am glad you are taking time to research before you make your decision.
Kimberly,
definitely check out the testimonies of other people who have been to the HA here on this blog. And keep in mind that most of them (including me) were absolutely adoring of TM while we were there.
We swallowed everything they gave us and asked for more.
It took YEARS (for me, a whole decade) for God to remove the blinders and show us what they’d done.
Yes, it feels like a year devoted to God, on a spiritual high, with like-minded people.
But that’s not actually what it is.
Please keep reading before you decide what you’ll do. You don’t have to go to Teen Mania in order to devote a year of your life to God.
(Oh – and the whole asking for 4 months up front? They’ll tell you it’s to pay for things like retreats, most of which occur during the first few months of the internship – but ACTUALLY the ministry is in serious financial trouble right now – I’ve heard over $3.5 million in debt – and they’re not only requiring interns to pay their “tuition,” but also do extra fundraising on behalf of the ministry to get them out of debt…)
Kimberly, Diane is absolutely right on the money (*ba dum chhh*) about the finances.
Also, statistically, the most dismissals happen in October, so they want to make sure that they have that money before people leave. It’s sad to say, but that’s how it works.
That’s also why the first two months’ tuition is $1200/month, then they go down with each month ($800, $600, $400, then the last two months are $100, I think).
Just going to throw my 2 cents in here too – definitely read the true stories and other postings before deciding. Only you can make that final decision for what’s best for you, but I would tell anyone to prayerfully consider BOTH sides before jumping in. As you can see from the postings, there are some serious issues with the HA and there might be some other ministry/organizations options out there to consider.
Lastly, I don’t know your reasoning for wanting to go to the HA, but something I would say is that there’s nothing magical about the HA in helping you determine God’s will for your life. I graduated from the HA 10 years ago, and after dealing with some serious issues related to my time there, and doing a million different things since, I’m just now figuring out God wants me to do, and it’s nothing I discovered through attending the TM/HA – gasp! 🙂 However, the journey these last 10yrs has been amazing and I wouldn’t trade it for a “quick and easy” way to know my purpose.
Good luck making your decision.
Hey Kimberly,
Glad to hear you are considering both sides of the story. Please take a look at the categories “dangerous doctrine, “true stories” and “spiritual abuse” to get an idea of why the HA is an unhealthy place. There are lots of people there who take a break from college – so, no, I don’t think that will help in regards to not being brainwashed. Its really hard to explain how intense the environment is there unless you have experienced it. Its really beyond anything you can resist without just leaving.
Please feel free to ask any other specific questions here on the blog or you can email me as well. I’m sure everyone here would be happy to help you.
Hey everyone,
Thank you for comments! I actually did read all of the posts before I even wrote on here explaining my concerns. I will continue to pray for God’s will and guidance in life and if anyone else has any helpful advice I would love to hear it.
Thanks again!
Kimberly, I just have to say this.
If you do prayerfully decide to partake in the Honor Academy, then more power to you.
But, please please please, do yourself a favor. Don’t do ESOAL. And if they ask why? Tell ’em it’s optional. See the reaction you get 😛
But seriously. Just… don’t do it. It’s not worth it. Please.
I have already decided that if I do go I am not going to be doing ESOAL. I know I would hate it. I have asthma that really acts up when I exercise and that would end up bad. I know that doing ESOAL isnt what makes me closer to God its reading his word and trusting him. ESOAL would just be a dumb thing for me to do for physical reasons. Plus the lack of sleep would mentally be ridiculous. I know my limits and that is over that line for sure. My biggest fear I would say is the running the first week early in the morning. Once a week isnt bad but everyday at first sounds tough. I do believe God wants us to take care of our bodies and be healthy, but does that mean we have to go through tons of pain? Why cant they do it on a more loving level where they are understanding if someone is having a bad day or is sick? I guess to rely on God to get you through everything even running when sick….To me that part doesnt make sense. To me, the interns pay to be there so therefore we shouldnt be forced.
I would have to agree with Nunquam – if you go, don’t do ESOAL and be ready to feel shamed for not doing it. My year was the first year they did it and I was ridiculously exhausted so I decided not to do it. However, I was definitely made to feel like something was wrong with me/my relationship with God because I didn’t.
You raise some great questions and points about the physical nature of the HA. I agree 100%. The problem is the HA has blanket expectations for everyone regardless of physical, mental, or spiritual condition. This is what I feel like is one of the things that’s so dangerous about it. If you don’t participate, you will be confronted by leadership, your friends, and people who say they “care” about you as to why you’re not submitting to authority. Personally, I had a good friend who was expected to run with shin splints b/c she didn’t have a doctors note – when she went to the doctor turns out she had a stress fracture and had been running for a week in that condition! RA is right, you really can’t fully understand the intensity until you’re there – the crazy thing is that much of the pressure/guilt/shame etc… doesn’t end up coming solely from the leadership. It comes from everyone around you – other interns and “friends” that you live with everyday who have been convinced that if you’re not doing exactly what leadership says. That’s what makes it so rough.
Kimberly–please heed the above comments. As far as your asthma–I’d seriously suggest a very descriptive doctor’s note–and bring it with you..then they can’t force you to do the morning runs, strenuous exercise and even ESOAL…but as has been said above, you will be made to feel guilty and shamed for not participating–and again, as mentioned above–pressure/guilt/shame also comes from other interns as well.
You’re comment “To me, the interns pay to be there so therefore we shouldn’t be forced.’ shows that you really have no idea as to what you’re signing up for…please read all the postings carefully and PRAY.
You have to get over the ‘paying to be there’ thing–THEY OWN YOU when you’re down there and you are paying for the privilege to serve them (oops…I meant..serve God)…
Kimberly,
“To me, the interns pay to be there so therefore we shouldnt be forced.”
I think Dave Hasz would die to hear you say that because it is exactly the opposite of what they teach you there and how they treat you. I’m sure Dave Hasz would probably beat that out of you in your first week there. (only slightly kidding)
What is ESAOL…sorry-I don’t know much about the Honor Academy-but am concerned for a family friend who has a child attending their second year in TX.
Thanks
Last Anon – ESOAL stands for Emotionally Stretching Opportunity of A Lifetime. It’s hard to explain what it is – you can look at the links to previous blogs on this site to find out more though.
https://recoveringalumni.blog/esoal-2009/
https://recoveringalumni.blog/esoal-firsthand-accounts-pt-2/
Thanks for sharing, I know many Alumni who have had similar experiences the thing that bugs me that it seems like no one ever said is sometimes we can’t feel God and there’s nothing wrong with that. If you looked at your life like you said you did and you were still pursuing God, still having quite times, repentant of sin. I think as Christians especially in places like Teen Mania we sometimes tend to rely too much on our feelings. Sometimes God just chooses to be silent and we just have to push through and deal with it…its like being in the desert we arent always going to have those great times sometimes life just sucks and its not because of anything we’re doing or not doing, look at Job’s life.
Wow.
I am appalled to see that someone has devoted an entire blog to this. Yes, being at TM is hard. But so is life.
While your experience may not have been fabulous, TM has done many incredible things and has helped a lot of people grow and change. They do not deserve this sort of public bashing.
Wow Anonymous, While I like you have had great experiences with TM.. why should be prohibit others with differing opinions from voicing how they were treated. That is like telling them that their experiences are not valid. Have some compassion. I do not see this as bashing TMM but a group of people that would like to use their experiences to bring about a more compassionate ministry to serve the world in a more Christ like manner.
Anonymous: RTFM.
If you want your opinion to be respected, then kindly follow those guidelines. It won’t hurt to actually address the issues that RA brings up on this blog, instead of going “lol guys I can’t argue with a single point here so instead I’m just going to publically bash you for bashing TM”.
Which, by the way, isn’t bashing. There are several posts here written about WHY this blog exists, and the significance of it.
Kimberly,
as far as exercise and ESOAL goes what a lot of people said is true.. #1 they can’t force you to do ESOAL, its not for everybody, I never did it because of my bad knee instead I enjoyed a nice quiet weekend in the dorm and prayed for my friends that were going through it.
and as far as exercise, its really important for you to get a drs note. the main form of exercise there is running, which again because of my bad knee is something I cannot do so I had to do alternate…which usually is reserved for people who have really injured themselves…or so it seemed. and I got “confronted” by several staff and CA’s whomever was running alternate , because they thought I was just slacking off because I didn’t want to run..that it didn’t seem like I was getting anything out of it..so yeah you can get crap from people even if you have a valid reason not to run or participate..its a good chance to teach a life lesson to those who assume.
Anonymous- “enduring Hell for Heaven’s sake”, in a nutshell.
ESOAL is an abusive 3-5 day ritual based on Navy Seals training. Do a search for it on this blog and youtube to get a taste.
Teen Mania Ministries saved my life. If you are feeling discouraged, there is hope for you. God is truth. I encourage you to find the truth in the word of God. Matthew 10:38-39
Anonymous- Jesus saved mine. I win.
Why do you assume that just because RA disagrees with TM, that he doesn’t know the “truth in the word of God”?
Anyone who blindly follows any organization and looks for truth or unquestioned direction from a person is making a huge mistake.
I wish it could go without saying and that anyone who ever signed up for the HA would know this… Never trust an organization, denomination, preacher or leader without researching what they’re saying on your own. QUESTION AUTHORITY. THINK FOR YOURSELF.
There are those who come to the HA who are very sheltered which often times makes them extremely impressionable….
But there are also many HA interns who engage in theological discussions and take things they are taught with a grain of salt. Perhaps the Honor Academy should encourage healthy debate, ask more questions and emphasize to interns that its important to search for truth on their own.
Nunquam’s response to Anon:
Anon–“Teen Mania saved my life–”
“Anonymous- Jesus saved mine. I win.”
Nunquam–You Rock!–and so does Jesus!
I have a heart for young people. I have a hear for young adults. As an older man I draw some inspiration from younger people who have a heart to serve the Lord. I attended both of the YWAM schools years ago. Discipleship training school DTS, and the school of evangelism SOE, and both experiences were excellent. Some years later I attended an church group that displayed some cult like characteristics and that church eventually split down the middle. While this was a source of pain due mostly to the loss of relationships I went on with God as you are all doing. By going on with God you display courage and an authentic faith. “No one humanly speaking can separate us from the love of God.” I have read the comments carefully, as well as, looked at other parts of your web sight. While it is only my opinion it seems as if TM and HA started out well at their inception , but like other organizations of well meaning people they have missed the mark. It seems that they are adopting a culture that works for TM and HA , but is not necessarily always congruent with scripture. What is mean is that there is the “Letter of the law” and “The Spirit of the law”, and one brings life and another death. It seems that in the governance of the organization as a whole that the leadership has given themselves to the “Letter of the law.” This is not good as out of such application there springs an “Authoritarian Movement” that is destructive to peoples spiritual lives. Unfortunately none of this is new to church life. It seems to go in cycles. We experienced an “Authoritarian Movement” in our churches across America during the late 70’s and early 80’s that left countless spiritual refugees. No way that I would allow a child of mine to attend TM or HA based on what I have read off of your sight. Thank you for your information and courage and inspiration! May all of you who have been wounded recover so completely that you go on to serve God with all of the joy, peace, and contentment that accompanies such service! May you go on to give Him all because He is all.
Sincerely,
First Officer Tom Hammersley
Capital Cargo International Airlines
Tom – Thanks for your input. Its true that there is nothing new under the sun – including authoritarianism.
You said:
It seems that they are adopting a culture that works for TM and HA , but is not necessarily always congruent with scripture.
This is a great insight in an economy of words – I may have to borrow it from you. 😉
I am a very old alumnus. I can’t find anything to tell me who you are and how old you are. In other words, how long ago was your experience at TM?
Clearly in GV and clearly since GI’s existed, but beyond that can you please tell me a little more?
Dear Recovering Alumni,
You are welcome to those words if they can help you or anyone else. Make them your own. As I continue to look over your web sight it is apparent that TM and HA are heading down a dangerous road. Our God is just and the wheel of judgement grinds slowly. While it is only my opinion I do not see God allowing this to go on indefinitely.
As I stated previously I have had my experience with the “Authoritarian Movement.” It may be true to say that most Christians in America who hang around church life for 30 or more years are going to experience this on some level. We need leaders but we need leaders who are after the order of a King David, the broken hearted shepherd boy. Yes, he was called out of the fields and anointed by the prophet Samuel. Yes, he become somewhat of a Hebrew folk hero after slaying the giant. Yes, he endured some hellish agony under the hand of a tyrant in preparation for his coronation. But in all of his years of service to Israel as a warrior king he was still at heart the broken hearted shepherd boy and the man after Gods own heart. Perhaps the “Key” word is broken. If a leader is after the order of a Saul, it doesn’t seem to matter how much accountability that there is or isn’t. It doesn’t seem to matter the size or scope of the ministry. The people under that style of leadership are going to be set up for some abuse. But, if that leader is truly broken then it really doesn’t matter how much accountability that there is, nor the exact structure of that organizations government. The followers are going to be relatively safe.
I am not sure what Mr. Luce or the other gentleman is trying to see done in the hearts of their followers, but it is clearly not discipleship in the “Jesus Style.” If I could suggest an author it would be a man by the name of Gene Edwards, who wrote such works as “A Tale of Three Kings,” “The Prisoner in the Third Cell,” and “The Divine Romance.” These are to name but a few. He deals with the “Authoritarian Movement” in these books and a few others. Also, Brennan Manning wrote “The Ragamuffin Gospel”, which is a splendid view of the gospel of grace.
Again, while it is only my opinion neither Ron nor Dave seem to display the character qualities of “Broken” men. In every organization it all hangs on the leadership. One day TM and HA are going to be brought down if they continue in their venue. When this happens there are going to be hundreds of disillusioned young people, some of whom are going to recover, but many who are not going to recover and go on to serve their God. This is a sad fact.
If there is any encouragement here keep presenting the information as you have been doing. It is unbiased, well researched, rooted in scripture, and supported by very responsible testimonials of eyewitnesses. Ya’ll sure got my attention! I mean to say that apart from being a brother in Christ I have no ties to this organization in any way. I stumbled across your link on Facebook.
I’d like to help. If there is any way practically speaking that I might help then let me know and I will provide you with contact information, as well as , pastoral and personal references.
Tom Hammersley
Ben and anonymous- I was around TM when they still believed in the Holy Spirit and it’s power. Those were good days and God moved big time. I have been sad that they gave into the main stream.
Anon – I choose not to disclose my identity, for now. I think that the arguments and stories I’ve presented stand or fall on their own merits.
Tom – Thanks for your encouragment. Ironically, Dave often recommends those Gene Edwards books…
Dave? Really? That is ironic!
Edwards writes with the hope that people leaving “Authoritarian Movements” find hope and solace and go on to recover and serve God! I wonder how long ago it was that he was “Recommending” Edwards books? Could I surmise that it’s been some time? And…would he still recommend these same books today? An authoritarian leader some years ago was presented with the book “A Tale of Three Kings.” Upon reading it he promptly banded the book from his church. LOL!
Tom
@ Tom
yes, DH has recommended many gene edwards books over the years. i believe he used to read Tale of Three Kings aloud to the GI’s once a year. and though i believe that book is full of amazing lessons, i also felt like it was used as a “get over it” manual for interns and to challenge us to become davids, while the HA continued to be saul. but that’s just my two cents. 🙂
Carrie – that is exactly what I was about to say. It’s used as a manual to teach “submit even when you are abused, just like David!”
Reading these posts have broken my heart. I am so sorry that you all were hurt. This blog has made me look back at my time at the HA and shudder thinking that some of my friends were so deeply hurt and I was unaware. There is one individual in particular that I did see struggle with doctrine and other things who ultimately decided to leave. I didn’t understand why at the time but now I do. I sincerely hope I didn’t say any hurtful things to anyone in my ignorance. IT seems that more grace and compassion are definitely needed not only at the HA but in the world in general. Thank you all for sharing your stories. May this blog be a place of healing and closure for all. Kes class of 98-99
My heart is saddened to read the commits of this blog. I have been involved with Teen Mania at every level since my first ATF in 1991. I still keep up with many of my friends from my internship year (97) as well as have many friends who are current staff and former.
I am surprised to see so many people now referring to their year as having been so painful. It was absolutely the most painful year of my life both physically, mentally, and emotionally. That was exactly what God was wanting to do in my life. I thank God for the disciplines I learned there that year and most of all finding Christ as the center of my life. I have now been in full-time ministry for 10 years and have traveled around the world in missions because of my experience.
I would trust Ron & Dave with my life. I have know both of them outside the internship for many years and their character is one of humility and a Fear of the Lord.
I pray that those of you on this blog would have that same Fear of the Lord. I know that the internship turns out differently for different people, but in the end it was based on your own choices. I have not read through many of the posts hear and actually know many of the situations and those that are posting and am having a hard time finding truth in their comments. It is amazing to find a site that bashes other Christians. I would invite you to try and have these conversations first with those that “harmed” you first before posting…that is the biblical response.
I hope you find your healing in Christ..not venting.
Anon – I can’t let this slide. You said:
“I have not read through many of the posts hear and actually know many of the situations and those that are posting and am having a hard time finding truth in their comments”
Even though you haven’t read the stories, you still feel like you are competent to give a verdict:
“in the end it was based on your own choices”
Besides the fact that you are pronouncing judgments on situations in which you do not the facts, the truth is that no one willfully chooses to be abused. Yes, we stayed at TM desite the abuse – and that is part of the brainwashing we endured.
I’m glad your experience was not marred by abuse. That doesn’t give you right to sit in judgment on others who have experienced it.
Here we go again.
RA, looks like your entire view of God hangs on the hinges of whether or not you endorse Teen Mania. Allow me to illustrate.
According to popular comments, if one disagrees with Teen Mania, they are any combination of the following:
1. ignorant to the truth in the Word of God
2. lacking in reverence
3. without peace
4. living in the habitual sins of anger and bitterness
5. begging for attention by ‘acting out’
6. outwardly rebellious
7. ‘red’iculous (I suppose this is a more intense version of the more commonly recognized ‘rid’iculous?)
I guess, by similar lines of logic, everybody who supports Teen Mania must have a whole and unrippled view of the things of God, right?
Man, I wish it were that easy.
Oh, but I think I nabbed bitterness in #4 there. You’re right, though; I did completely forget vengeful! Thanks for the heads-up!
I had a very positive internship year back before HA, which was about half my life ago. I only recently was sent this link, and in the last couple of days of reading it, I feel extremely sick and distressed. Even back then, there were people who were hurt, and honestly it seemed somewhat random. When these incidents happened, it felt like we just scratched our heads and wondered what went wrong and why. It would seem so pointless to watch a friend get hurt when you survived unscathed. I suppose I hoped over the years these seeming blips would end.
So, my heart is so broken for all of you who have been so very hurt. I work for a missions organization myself and I see a lot of brokenness in my colleagues overseas as ministry of all kinds brings its own pain (I am not able to live overseas because I have a child with medical problems). Now, I will also be praying for the brokenness of those who have been through a similar internship to mine but with such terrible consequences. I feel a certain bond with those of you so injured as we were both “interns.”
I too have judged others too much, but I have learned from having a child with special needs to listen more and criticize less. You never know the sorrows that others are going through, and Jesus calls us to be merciful. So, I will continue to read more stories over the next few weeks and to pray for your journeys of healing and restoration.
And I would encourage those of you in my situation who had a wonderful TM experience to be merciful to those who got burned.
96-97 alumni part 1
I was an aug 96-97 intern. Our class moved TM from Tulsa to Garden Valley, and I too can understand so much of what is going on. TM was absolutely on of the hardest years of my life. Many times I contemplated getting BV’d to escape the pain that I was enduring (my issue was directly related to a particular staff memeber who I will not mention). It seemed as though they were the thorn in my flesh. With that said, I originally contemplated a second year, however, due to my cirmcumstances decided that it was not for me.
I can tell you that there are many things that I have struggled with outside of TM. When I first arrived home I was completely exhausted and slept for quite a while. I am not sure if that was because of long nights in the bed factory or just emotional and physical exhaustion from all that I had gone through. I would wake up in the morning, reluctantly, skip my quite time, go to work, sleep in my car at lunch, go home and go to bed. I did this for quite sometime and now wonder if I was dealing with some illness.
I can tell you that when I first got home I was in shock. Cultural shock I guess you could say. I dont think any amount of debriefing prepared me for what I went through. I hope that the debriefing process has changed. I always wondered how anyone who had never been outside of the TM bubble could tell you how to live on the outside. Hopefully they have figured this out. If not please bring in past interns, who have been there, to tell you how to live in the real world. I think that many interns would not be let down after the high of having a year to pursue God without “worldy” distractions.
96-97 alumni part 2
I found that it was so difficult to keep the standard of excellence that was set before me while I was at home. I too have felt all of the emotions that have been listed here. I would remind myself that you can not hate the process no matter how hard it is. As I would talk with fellow alumni, I would see that they were in the same boat and I would ask myself,”How did I get here?”
I have read so many of the comments that have been posted on here, some from previous alumni and others from recently graduated alumni, and my hope and prayer is that if you have had positive experience that it remains that way for you. I will say that like so many on here, I have found that my issues with TM have taken years for things to surface and heal.
I have been back to more than one reunion and have recently decided that it is now time to turn the page in my life. I remember hearing stories of people who have had their honor rings taken from them. It saddens me. It is perceived that it is because they do not live up to TM’s expectations. I can say with all honesty that I too would have been one of the interns that would have been stripped of a ring that I worked so hard to earn.
Since I have graduated I have struggled with legalism. We were constantly reminded that it was the Spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. But most of all, do everything with excellence. I think I finally came the rationalization that I can only perform for so long. I am not perfect. I look at past alumni and compare myself, which we all know is not Godly in itself, but for the longest time I wondered if they were living up to their mission statements and if they were having the same struggle that I was. Did they feel the same way about TM that I did. Sadly I know that the answer is yes.
I said that I have had to tell myself don’t hate the process. As an previous pastor of ours once said, “You can’t throw the baby out with the wash.” I have had to let God show me what to take away from my experience there. I have had to let God deal with my short commings. My failure to measure up, my failure to meet my misson statement. Because if there is anything that I have learned, it is only in and through HIM that we are complete, healed, delivered, and righteous. It is not by anything that we have or have not accomplished.
I have recently found myself dreaming about TM. I wonder what it is all about. I can tell you that they have been nightmares for me.
I can also say that in my process, God has been speaking to me about returning to TM. I don’t think literally. I think that God is saying this… There are so many foundational truths that you learned at TM. You learned to seek me with all that you have. You learned to read my word, to live and grow in me, you learned to hear my voice, you learned to trust in me, you learned to rely on me, you learned to pray my word, you learned to reach out to others, you learned what it is like to give, you learned wisdom and discernment. You have learned to take the things of God and discard the the things of man. You have learned my character. You have learned who I AM.
It was the hardest year of my life. But I have come to the conclusion that growing in the Lord is difficult. Would I trade that, I don’t think so. Do I wish my experience would have been different. As my two year old nephew would say…”yeah I do!”
Thanks for sharing, alum. Unfortunately, I think nightmares are a common effect of traumatic experiences. I know I have definitely had my share of them, even after being out for many years. It may also indicate there is still healing God wants to do in your heart.
Sort through good vs. bad is definitely a process, as you said. And not particularly a fun one, either. But I think the growth and wisdom we gain during the process are invaluable.
Anon @ 5:30 – thanks for your comments, I appreciate your generosity of spirit.
I’m not quite sure what to say but relief and grief is the first.
I was just mailed this site and I have to say it’s good that I finally feel like I’m not the only one who has struggled to sort things out after the internship.
I have had to deal with a lot of reflecting the past two years because I hit a wall in my walk with God. The things that I took away from the internship did not work for me in real life and it’s been over ten years for me.
I am finding freedom in Christ and this blog but it is an up hill battle to fit perfectionism/excellence that was drilled into me.
Thank you everyone for being brave to share.
R.A. you’re like a counselor! heehee. And you’re a good ‘on. 🙂
Who did you send this mass email to anyways? and what did you say? lol. I was wondering what the deal was with all the older alumni to the site. which I think is super cool 🙂
First, not sure how you get my email and why would you send a loyal and happy alumni this email criticizing the awesome work that Teen Mania is doing reaching people with the gospel and growing them in their spiritual walks with God!!
Dare you to to leave this post up and not delete it!! As I mean you no harm by my post, read it and see! Unless you are too sensitive to handle a little critique yourself from time-to-time
Really now, I guess I don’t understand your beef with Teen Mania! As I am a pro-church man, and attribute my life-long success to being involved in a local church. Especially, while I was at Teen Mania as a room leader, supervisor at my job position, and a 2nd year intern; I needed to go to a local church!! God set it up that way! Not much more to say on that one, other than I think Dave Hasz was pretty accurate on that one.
Regardless, I honor you for doing a solid year and partial second at the internship. Sorry, that something cut in on your commitment; but at least you helped a good cause for the time that you were there.
I’m sorry, but I thought this site was very sad, and pray that you are not hindering people’s walk with the Lord. My time at Teen Mania was life-impacting and helped propel me for my future! I am glad that I was challenged to go the extra mile; come to think of it wasn’t it also Jesus that said to go the extra mile.
I think you should put your picture and name on the home page of this site. If you can freely critique and criticize Teen Mania leadership, principles, etc…then just man up and put your name and picture on the home page for all to see!
You may have your “negative angles” to critique, but Teen Mania reaches many lost people every year and helps many people.
Hope I have not offended you with this, just giving you my point of view.
May the Lord heal your hurt in the precious name of Jesus!
Love ya, and I call you blessed today!
Nate Harvard
to Nate:
“I’m sorry, but I thought this site was very sad, and pray that you are not hindering people’s walk with the Lord. My time at Teen Mania was life-impacting”
Well Nate–glad to hear that you had such an awesome experience with TM–but not all interns have…and I’d like to say that RA’s blog was a key part of my son’s healing after he was thrown out of there like the trash with no afterthought or follow up–until I found this blog and realized the spiritual abuse and works mentality that goes on down there.
My son’s experience at TM was life-impacting all right–but not in the same way your’s was. He was deeply wounded by this organization and dumped by them for not being ‘good enough’. So no–RA is not hindering people’s walk with the Lord–he is helping many who have been hurt by these people–and it has opened up dialogue with my son as we were able to see that he was not alone–and he has been able to move forward and heal in the Lord and learn about the love, grace and mercy of our Lord outside of that organization.
It’s great that ‘Teen Mania reaches many lost every year’ but they should work on a better way to not hurt their own people every year….it cuts deeply…
Hope I haven’t offended you–just giving you MY point of view…and yes, we are blessed today–thanks to RA’s blog and the mercy of Jesus
Nate,
I also had a great experience with TM and consider it a to do all kinds of good work, however, that does not mean that people cannot still get hurt in ministries that are doing good things (I’ve been in the body of Christ long enough to see this over and over).
I have no problem with people having a forum to talk about their grievances openly, and I have been impressed by this site in the honesty and longing for healing that is expressed here. So, I say, share your heart, the good, the bad, and the ugly, because God can handle it. I believe that it is through sharing our story, having others listen and care, and having even our worst experiences validated that the healing process is often most powerful. God does not need us to pretend to be OK when we are broken.
Lynley
96-97 alumni brings up a very good point: a better debriefing might help a lot of people when they return home after their time at HA. If they knew that it would be hard, had someone to talk to about struggling with being outside of the bubble, etc. maybe some people would be able to adjust better without having to come down from their high too suddenly or unexpectedly. I wonder if anyone has any ideas as to how we, as parents, can help our children when they come home. Is there anything specific that we can do to make the transition easier? I would love to hear from people who had both good and bad experiences when they left HA. What helped? What made life harder? Things like that.
96-97 alumni
I think the main thing that I got from debriefing was that when you get home you there may be a possibility that you will feel like you are better than everyone. They explained to us that we needed to plug into our local church and help duplicate ourselves. I think that some of the things that I struggled with when I first arrived home was that I felt like, without teen mania, I had no avenue to really reach out and minister in the way that TM pushes. I know that this comment will receive a lot of flack. I am prepared for that. When I came home I was involved with a very small church to which I felt called to be at. I worked with my youth group there and things really just fizzled. Maybe that was not my calling but I saw a need and felt that I could at least try to do something. But I really felt like there was such a deep ache in my heart that I really did not know what to do. I think that I was very extreme when I came home. I was 23 when my internship ended. I did not date any one for 5 years(because of some of the things that TM taught.) I think I just became very confused. We know that when that happens sin sets into your life and it did. I am not blaming my sin on TM by any means. But I think I just gave up, said what I am doing now is getting me no where. I went wild in all honesty. Far from TM’s rule. The thing is is that everywhere I went people were like oooh you were an intern. I just felt pressured to perform. At that point I did not even want people to know I was TM alumni. But that was my sin, not TM.
96-97 alumni,
I think “feeling better than everyone” and trying to “duplicate ourselves” go hand in hand. There is a tendency among alumni to think THIS is the way things must be done – the TM way.
Your story is a familiar one – go home, try really hard to continue in what you’ve been taught, only to meet a lot of confusion when things don’t work out as you expect. Some go “wild” as you did, others sink into despair. I think its important to go beyond blaming ourselves for those reactions and to look at WHY we reacted that way.
This is completely unrelated to TM … but RA, would it be possible for you to add dates to your posts? It would be helpful (to me at least LOL) to be able to see when each blog post made its appearance 🙂
I am interested in your story. There have been many great biblical characters and Christians who have gone through a trying time also known as a dessert experience. I am an alumni who was not really wanting to go, but I went and made the most of it, and the HA had it’s pro’s and con’s, as does anything in life, especially when you look through a humans point of view. The Honor Academy was amazing and if I would go back and go through it again I would, would I change a couple of things that I did when I was there…Absolutely. It seems that you too had a wonderful time at the Honor Academy. I hope that you have realized God’s infinite love for YOU!
As I was going through Chemo and radiation along with a bone marrow transplant, I had several people ask me about my trust in the Lord and how in this trying time I could still believe. He is my everything, He is my reason for living! I will be praying that you will KNOW the love of the Lord to your inner most being. I would like to know more about your trying time and how you got through them. God’s grace is new every morning!
Brandon Sickler HA alumni 02′
@96-97 alumni
when you get a chance drop me a line at mm@vegas.com. I would like to talk with you
I just received the email for the Wounded from the Honor Academy. After my own experience w/ TM, it is certainly interesting to read the content of this website.
I grew up, in a sense, with TM. My oldest brother went on 5 mission trips with them, my second oldest brother went on 1. My sister went on 4 mission trips and the HA. I went on 4 mission trips and did the HA.
I feel that many people who enter the HA may not be prepared for such an intense environment. I believe that I had a fairly good foundation before I entered the HA which helped me to separate legalism from the experience as a whole. There were certainly issues that I had with leadership, and I especially took issue with the model intern. Furthermore, I really dealt with issues of condemnation. Even though I was 18-19 at the time, I knew that when the dominant leadership was young, zealous people, there was going to be some control issues. I have distinct memories meeting with my CA because I was infuriated at some of the “mandatory” over-spiritualized policies.
Nevertheless, when I look back at Teen Mania, I see a lot of good too. I believe that God really used those years to shape me for the better. There are certain memories I have, such as reading “How Now Shall We Live,” or hearing Dave Hasz’ forgiveness speech, which stay with me today. I was able to leave with a grasp on the heart behind much of what Teen Mania was trying to teach. Even the whole thing with dismissal, which I have really not liked, I understand in terms of the lesson of being honest with yourself.
In regards to this website, I think that it is a good resource for those trying to make sense of their experiences. No, we were not crazy. Yes, there WAS something off.
I would like to hear what some of the leadership at TM has to say about this. It would be very interesting indeed.
EB
i have read all you post, and now I feel like i dont know what to do..
foe the last couple weeks i have been really excited about applying to HA,
it was a long process, but i know i have a calling to work in ministry, and i feel like God is telling me to dedicate the year after i graduate (i am currently a senior in highschool)
to serve him , dwell in him , to grow in him .
i told this to my friend who is currently in IHOP,(international house of prayer) right now and she told me of some places i should look into, i first really wanted to go to ihop, but i am from honduras and they arent accpeting internationals right now,
i also looked into ywam, but it felt really overwhelming and confusing
then i saw the the honor academy, and it Felt like just what i need, a year set apart for God, they give college credits, and give scholarships in unversitys for attendint
, (i stil dont know whether im goingto go to college or serve fulltime),
for the last couple day i have been feelling like if HA is where i should be , but i have been praying for Gods will to be reaveled to me
and i want what he wants for me,
i continued my research and found this blog
and after reading this, i am very confused, i have to say what you describe this place to be is nothing like what i imagine it to be, and now i dont know if i want to apply to HA…
i go to a christian school, and even though i know i wouldnt be where i am right now if it werent for my school, my school right now is very spiritually dry, because it is becoming very legalistic,and religious..
its been hard going through that
( i know my place right now is to pray for my school,and there is a group of us who have a burden for our school)but its been hard, and i dont want to go to that again.
most of what i have read here are negative experiences, and from what i am reading here it seems this place is very legalistic and religious.
Znge, Of course none of us can tell you what is best for your life, but I am really glad you are looking at both sides and I’ll pray that God will lead you to wherever your next step is.
I’m really glad someone created this site. It is definitely needed. I attended HA 01-02. I often tell people that I got a lot out of the internship despite Teen Mania not because of it. I came from a very strong Christian background, and because of that, I was used to hearing from God for myself. I never took what TM said as “from God”. I felt God telling me to put everything I heard through his filter. Essentially I would forget all I heard but only think on it further if He brought it back to my attention. I had gone to a legalistic and charasmatic Christian high school and fit in perfectly. I was used to meeting all standards anyone put on me, but I never met the TM standards it seemed. I had been dating before the internship and everyone told me to completely cut off the relationship, but my mom told me that I should still be friends with him because we could still end up together someday. I knew my relationship was healthy, unlike other in the internship, so I kept my friendship. It was difficult, but he was in an internship that didn’t allow dating either. We have now been married 6 years and have a wonderful 2 year old boy.
DH had us read a John Bevere book during the internship. My parents were on their own journey at the time figuring out that God loves us and has already counted us as righteous regardless what we do. The John Bevere book told us we had to “clean our hands” before we could go up the mountain to meet with the Lord. I just knew that was not correct so I read the book asking God the whole time to help me discern the truth. He showed me how the scriptures had been taken out of context.
Basically, when I see God as loving and truthfully desiring that I am happy as His child I am able to hear from Him a lot more clearly. If any of you struggle with these issues, I highly recommend my pastor’s books and vlogs. www.sanctuarytulsa.com He has been on the national best sellers list. In particular, Ed Gungor’s book “Religiously Transmitted Diseases” might appeal to some of you. Grace and Peace to you all!
Wow. Glad to know that I am not alone. Well, wasn’t alone. You see, after TM, I decided (was pressured by TM) to go to a Christian college, and went to a great one… however, horrible for my major. So, I was passionate, though empty for about 3 years. When my mom passed away, and my prayers literally fell on deaf ears, I began to challenge a lot more of what I believed. Currently, I am an atheist. (Please don’t try to convert me). I haven’t been happier and more free. I feel free from having to worry about whether I measure up or whether I am a good christian or not. I can focus on what I love, social services, and not have to feel like I need to save the world and preach a not so good news gospel.
Shannon – don’t worry, there is no evangelizing in the comments. 🙂 We’re glad you’re here, no matter what you believe.
Sorry to hear about the pain for losing your mom on top of dealing with an unforgiving Christianity.
can i make a comment about your story? and i pray that you take this with openness..
of course i do not know the entire story. but it seems to me like it contradicts itself, at least in the belief i have of God. God is the same today as he was in the beginning.. and it seems like your first year at the HA was great, but then bombed your second year. it doesnt line up, i would honestly question my salvation if i were you. i believe that God is faithful to draw near to those who draw near to him.. i think pride is something you need to check in your life. one can judge a tree by its fruit.. i hate that you were hurt, but i dont think this is how to make it right. i think this whole blog is an outward expression of your selfishness and self pity.
WOOOOOOW.
Dear Lord, did you just question the entire scope of RA’s salvation because he went through a dry season?!? REALLY!??!?!
Wow. Woah. Seriously. I’m really glad it’s the LORD who judges our hearts and not you. Just sayin’.
I’m glad you acknowledged that you don’t know the whole story, and you tried the humility card, but… wow.
That’s very sad.
I’m sorry, I can’t forgive this.
King David himself went through dry seasons. “How long o Lord will you forget me?” Sound familiar? It’s the opening of Psalm 13.
So you’re gonna sit there and say “well lol if ur a REAL christian then you get Jesus butterflies 24/7!!1!”?
No. Doesn’t work like that.
I’m sorry that Teen Mania told you otherwise, because I remember Ron Luce saying very similar things. I don’t think this is a matter of RA’s personal salvation; are you questioning him because you disagree with what he posts here?
I know I used to question people’s salvations when they spoke against TM. I really hope that’s not what you’re doing.
Last comment for now, I promise.
For me to say that “I can’t forgive this” was wrong. “Ignore” was more the word I was looking for. I apologize for being rash with my words.
Wow, that left me speechless. To actually question someone’s salvation? I have no words…
I would like to start by saying I to went through a period after I was an intern where it was hard to relate to people I came in contact with. My PASSION for who Christ trying to tell people about the INTIMACY he longs to have with us pushed people away. I saw very quickly that people around me wanted to LIVE life not to hear about it. Your story breaks my heart. I’m so sorry that the circumstances you had to endure pushed you to a place where you felt abandoned. I cant sit here and say I know all the answers to how the honor academy is ran, but I do feel that each and everyone of us can if we try see that God is using every situation in our lives to make us more like him. Honor academy or not. Having a place where past interns can come and dialog about hurts and doubts I think is a good thing as long as it’s done in a matter of becoming whole, and not done in a bashing way. What good would become of having a site for people to just bash and providing and outlet to put blame on.
Never perfect but always seeking for more intimacy with Jesus.
kyle
sorry about spelling or sentences that dont make since. Trying to get ready to go to my softball game and write this. Love you all.
That’s a good point Kyle. I really am starting to question whether this site is providing any sort of helpful therapy or if it is just fueling the fire of bitterness and blame. I have to apologize myself for closing myself to everyone who has mentioned that TM is a good ministry and that some of these problems could be from me. Sorry to all you supporters of TM I openly bashed out of my blind rage. I’ll try to evaluate the situation from another perspective. (That might provide real healing.)
Anon 9:16, you’re wrong. Sorry, but you are.
If not for this blog, I would still be walking around in bitterness and hate. The stories here have helped me come to terms with my confusion and rage toward the ministry, and I’ve been able to work through them to a point of holding no resentment toward Teen Mania.
So yeah. This blog provides a lot more spiritual benefit than people give it credit for.
Nunquam
I’m wrong for questioning. I’m wrong for appologizing. Your response in and of itself is laced with resentment and bitterness. Hopefully there is less there than there used to be.
You’re not wrong for questioning or apologizing, but you’re wrong for labeling this site as “bashing”, as so many others have.
I think there’s a big difference between frustration and bitterness. I’m frustrated that, despite several attempts to explain the purpose of this blog, people STILL think it’s a free-for-all whinefest.
When you said, “… that might provide real healing”, it kind of set me off, because I feel like you’re discounting any sort of actual healing that people have received through this blog. That’s where I’m coming from.
I’m sorry if it sounded like that. The truth is though, if you expect healing from this blog, you’ll end up in the same boat that got you here. You can’t count on a ministry or organization for healing you. That has to come from a stronger, purer, wiser, more powerful source. Yes, God can use this site to provide real healing, but like anything else, it can be abused. It is our human nature to rely on our own methods and tools to bring about what only One can do. Maybe this site is not a “free-for-all whinefest” for you, but I wish others would question their motives here.
Ah, now I get what you’re saying. And I’m sorry for coming off a little strong as well.
And yeah, I get that. I understand that the blog itself isn’t healing me; the LORD is. He’s just using this blog largely in that process ;P
Thanks for clarifying, though; I really do appreciate it 🙂
I realize this site has explained its purpose, but if so many have labeled it “bashing” maybe that’s something to look into? You can explain your purpose and then go a whole new direction.
Just Another Anonymous with questions
@At Anon 10:55
That is the biggest jerk comment I’ve heard in a while. I’m glad you think you know how people get over all their problems and all the answers to life’s questions. (You seem to lay out what you think plainly in your comment.)
I’m really upset at how people keep warning other people not to use the sight because it might cause them to fall into deeper sin. That is just not true. And it’s a false judgement call based on a fake person out there somewhere who ‘might’ do that. It’s a dumb accusation all together.
Your bitterness and unforgiveness is plainly displayed in your written tone. I didn’t say the site was evil, but obviously there are those who have found a means of using it as an environment to foster and feed unforgiveness and gossip. Maybe you’re not one of those people.
Anon- I don’t know you. And I really do like that you are commenting on the blog. I appologize for my bluntness with little tact.
…
Your bitterness and unforgiveness is plainly displayed in your written tone.
“but obviously there are those who have found a means of using it as an environment to foster and feed unforgiveness and gossip.
The truth is though, if you expect healing from this blog, you’ll end up in the same boat that got you here.
You can’t count on a ministry or organization for healing you
I wish others would question their motives here.
It is our human nature to rely on our own methods and tools to bring about what only One can do.
God can use this site to provide real healing, but like anything else, it can be abused.
I’m just saying… Sound’s like you’ve got all the answers. And you sound like a jerk.
Well except when you gave me the benefit of the doubt here :
“Maybe you’re not one of those people.”
Sorry I called you a Jerk Anon. That was not O.k. God does not think any of His beloved are Jerks. I do appologize. I’m such a sinner. Forgive me.
Thank you, RA, for creating this forum FOR THE HEALING OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HURT BY THE HA and/or TMM.
For those of you who do not require any healing from your time spent with the HA and/or TMM, congratulations!! You are very blessed people. I hope you are grateful for this blessing. While you have undoubtedly experienced other pain in your lives, I am truly happy for each one of you that the HA and/or TMM is not the cause of any of that pain.
Please respect the other people on this forum who have been harmed (spiritually, emotionally, or physically) during our time with HA and/or TMM.
My experience at TM was great at the time, i thought it was the best thing, however i always felt like i had some sin i had to get rid of to be close to God, yet believed God sought me. Well after years of always being depressed because i was wanted to be closer to God, or I always had some sin to fix. I felt like i wasn’t ever happy. I can say in all honesty that my experience at TM played a big part in why I am no longer a Christian. The consent judgement, the contradictions, intolerance, the manipulation it is a fundamental extremist organization. I am grateful for my experience other wise i would still be in ignorance.
Maybe we all should have spent more time forgiving each other than confronting each other… and as for RA’s closing statements of how he/she left the internship, but it didn’t leave him/her, it reminds me of another statement.
“You can take a boy out of the Bronx, but you can’t as easily take the Bronx out of the boy.”
Anyway… great shares, everyone.
It’s sad to hear the pain that many of you have gone through. I hope this blog brings healing to you guys. Thank for being open and sharing. I was an Honor Academy intern in 2007-2008. Altough I did have some hard times, a lot of times it’s because I made those times hard from the bitterness in my own heart and I took it out on the Honor Academy and my roommates & staff, and sometimes they did things that they weren’t aware of that hurt me as well, but I would let them know and they would own up to it. And I was almost dismissed cause I broke some of the ground rules, but I was able to graduate after all, and Dave Hasz is one of the most humblest men I know. I love his heart. He has a father’s heart. I’m sorry if you’ve had bad experiences with him. He is human. So am I, so are you. And I am sorry that you have experienced bad situations at the Honor Academy. The Honor Academy is like one big family, and families just mess up. It’s true. You live with these people for an entire year, they become your home away from home, your family, and the people closest to you have the ability to sometime hurt you the most. … I pray that you can find forgiveness for hurts you’ve had at the Honor Academy or wrongdoings that were against you. And I pray that you be able to forgive the Honor Academy, as well as yourselves. And I just have one thing more to say, is that in the end, LOVE WINS. Thank you for sharing your stories! May the peace of God fill your minds, and may you have joy surrounding you.
God bless you! And I sincerely mean it!
LOVE WINS.
Hi God,
Thank you for my bros and sisters that are writing on this blog, I pray that you renew their strength and that you fill them with your hope and love. And I ask that you bring tremendous joy, emotional healing of past experiences, and restoration. God I ask that the hurts and pains be restored with joy, laughter, love, and kindness. And I pray that you protect my bros and sisters and shield them from wrong ideas, bitterness, any hatred, any contempt, false guilt and and any form of rage. God, thank you for loving us, thank you for sending us each other, thank you for your freedom, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of love, and freedom of choice. And God, we want to thank you for you. For truly loving us despite our human ugliness. Thank you for being a friend and a lover, a mom and a dad, and thank you for your supernatural power of forgiveness and reconciliation that sets us free.
May we truly love each other, and learn to uplift each other, and speak well of each other.
Love you dad 🙂
And thanks. 🙂 Your one cool dude.
I really love how people are assuming you still need healing, RA. rofl
NEWS FLASH: THIS IS A SAFE PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO COME AND WORK THROUGH THEIR PAIN WITH TM. RA HAS ALREADY PROCESSED THROUGH IT.
JUST IN CASE YOU’VE TOTALLY IGNORED EVERYTHING ELSE EVER FROM THIS BLOG. Though prayers are always appreciated.
@ anon 1:04 –
one time I watched a surf video of some guys from Australia and they were like, “God saved my life that one time I hit a rock and nearly drowned. He’s one cool bloke.” hahahahaha. I’ll never forget that, growing up on the beach (reason for watching the video in the first place 😉 and being a new believer I thought that was pretty much the coolest thing ever.
Jesus is hecka cool. :)~
Good word homes.
Cesna, RA is surely, like many of us, still pursuing recovery. Its a process that might never end. He’s just a little further ahead than some of us others.
Thanks RA.
@anon 1:04
way to use prayer as a passive-aggressive means of communicating your thoughts about RA’s story.
This is anon 1:04 – No, I truly mean it, I hope that a lot of clarity and healing comes from this. I had my bad share of experiences, and my share of good. I had to go through some counseling. I’m just sayin, be careful to not start playing a bitterness/contempt game. …that will really throw you off, it did me. So just sayin, don’t go that way. 🙂 I truly hope that there will be divine healing and restoration for everyone on this blog, cause God is so rad, and there’s an adventure to look forward to, and a world of possibilities to conquer. I’m ready for that. 🙂
Much peace and love,
Love the God man. 🙂
This is anon 1:04 again…someone once told me that you know you’ve truly forgiven something and let go of the hurt when you look back at that thing, and it brings you no more hurt. When you look back at it, and there is no more pain in your heart as a result of that memory. Then you’ve truly forgiven. It may still be a bad memory, but it won’t hurt you, pain you, or feed you anger.
That was an awesome realization for me.
Just sharing how it is with me.
For the record, I do think recovery is probably a life-long process…But yeah, my personal experience doesn’t bring me hurt anymore. I still have major trust issues b/c of the HA, and I’m working through those, but I do feel recovered to a large extent.
However, I will say that the stories I hear, almost daily, DO make me hurt. They absolutely do make me angry – so I’m getting new stuff to recover from all the time.
As I’ve said before, this blog isn’t written from bitterness about my own experiences. I’ve worked through that. Any “bitterness” that comes through is because I am angry about how my brothers and sisters have been treated and how they are walking wounded right now.
Anon 1:04 again,
That makes sense. 🙂
So you’re angry about what keeps happening.
I got you now.
It would be cool if you put up a prayer section in the blog, lifting hurt interns up, and praying about the HA, lifting it up, and hoping that certain things would change there.
Have you met with the HA in person? It would be really cool to get a video, discussion of talking it through with the leaders, not debating, but really discussing what went on, and having some healing happen there between the leaders and interns. ? Just an idea.
Hey Anon,
If you want to join the forums, you are free to post some prayers over there. That would probably be a better venue for it.
I’m in communication with the Board of Directors right now, so we’ll see how that pans out. Based on my own experience and multiple experiences of other interns, I have absolutely zero confidence that Dave, Heath or Ron would listen with understanding or make any sincere changes. I know you might disagree, but I’ve been exposed to their darker side and I’m speaking from experience here.
Anon 1:04 ….or get a tele-conference going with the leaders.
There has to be some kind of talking/hasing it through.
Or maybe have a healing/restoration meeting/gathering @ the HA with hurt interns/ex-interns, and the leaders. I think I lot of good with come out of that.
What do you think?
Well, I hope things will work out.
I truly do. And I hope that leadership does listen, and both sides are reasonable.
And I’ll be praying for clear, communication on both sides.
Thanks for standing up. I’ll be praying for you man. Praying for the right things to come. 🙂
-anon 1:04
I had a meeting with one of my leaders 2 weeks ago (not HA)but another youth ministry and I had a lot of hurt, I was on the verge of quitting, so I was able to sit down with the leader & one of the board members and talk it through, it was amazing how so much of what the leader said that hurt me, they didn’t even remember saying. And they were shocked they had ever said any of it. And they were very sorry for it. They admitted what they did was wrong. The leader said to me, you know what, I know you need to hear this, and above all, I am so sorry about this, that I said this, I shouldn’t have, or it wasn’t right of me.”
After the meeting, there was so much healing, release, restoration, and so much freedom.
It was hard to do, but it was sooo worth it.
So I hope the same will come from all of this.
Much love &
peace out bro.
-Anon 1:04
So glad you had reconciliation and healing in that relationship. I wish that could be true at the HA…I’ve just heard WAY too many stories of Dave and Heath ignoring alumni complaints and brushing them aside…
Been there. But at a Christian School rather than a Christian church. Unfortunately my parents refused to believe there was any problem, thinking I was simply becoming rebellious (which was true) and insisted I stay at the school. I did, but then got kicked out, and attempted suicide. It was more of a cry for help and fortunately I was fine, but I definitely have been there. What I fail to see is how people can forget the people for all the religiosity. I’m working on a book about it…
If you are reading this blog and are not a part of TM keep in mind that most people that come to this site are not the ones that consider their TM to have been one of the most valuable years of their lives. There are many of us who although had our challenges and difficulties, do not feel like Teen Mania was a spiritual Egypt that kept us in slavery… There are those of us who believe God was still in control while at the intership, and our relationship with Him was not limited by the rules or high standards. Thank God that that our relationship with HIm is personal, so even if HA is as bad as represented by some, the only way we could not grow and mature is if we put our hope in something or someone else than HIm.
Anon – so are you saying b/c we were abused at TM that we don’t believe God was in control? I don’t think that is a fair assessment…
I can relate to your story. I think alot of people can. I think Teen Mania is very outward in what they define a Christian should be. Although there should be outward evidence of your walk with Christ, the organization seems to neglect the inward state of the heart. I think my core advisor asked me how many times I cleaned my room over the simple question “how are you today?”. I loved my time there, hated my ministry placement. I stayed for the relationships I built and the friendships I made. I remember thinking about jumping off the back porch and getting an injury just so I could miss work. lol…oh my. That place hurt me deeply, yet healed me. I learned how to become broken before the Lord.
I’m very concerned toward this entire blog. As for the “Recovering Alumni”, i understand exactly how you feel and to be quite honest i believe many interns and alumni including myself have gone through that. Its not at all unusual I’d like to add, and due to the sense I’m receiving from so many that seem to pay attention to this particular blog that i would like to address a great concern. From what it appears, many of you seem to be against “word of faith” preachers as i am; though ironically i will never fall into the ideas of Cessationism but am still a pentacostal at roots. I don’t believe in being “slain in the spirit” like many of you but i will say this.
There doesn’t seem to be much encouragement from this blog about the hope that the Honor Academy does give. I agree fully that many of their particular views are a bit off but due to their greatest conviction in building up leaders in the world and sticking fervently to salvation i will not say one word against them. I believe that since “Recovering Alumni” has mentioned that he/she was a second year intern then you must fully understand the point of armor bearing. Its not my place to say whether or not God had intended you to leave (though i feel that since you did make a promise to stay the course, as every intern has, then your feelings of “insanity” would have endured much like Paul in his many trips during his own time… in this we are no different if not less).
The point i wish to make is this; as outspoken as you are, do you honestly believe it is righteous or even biblically correct for you to speak ill of such a place. There are things i definitely disagree about with Teen mania but because of the lives that are changing for the Lord and due to the fact that there is no other place that equips so well, i will silence myself. I don’t have the power to do anything about it and thus i shall leave it be because God had called me and blessed me from the experience.
I am sorry for the lack of wisdom you received during your time. If i had known you in my life i would have asked the same questions but in the end of would only same the same that i have said to many others. There are times where God will flat out make it appear as if he has left your presence, not because of sin or failure or anything else, but simply to grow you more. If he didn’t do this then you would never grow as much, like a child that learns to be without parents we come to a time that we learn the same. That time when it comes is just a time of endurance much like Job’s was, and unfortunately it appears that those who were leaders around you seemed to respond as job’s friends did. But no matter the case the point remains that we are to obey the commands that are given by our father, this includes keeping the promises that one makes. I do have love for you my friend and hope that you do recover from that time and that God shows you the truth in your error so that you will not fall when times get really tough.
Please inform me through email if anyone would like prayer or further guidance in God’s word. I understand that many of you carry burden’s and wish to say that I’m here for you my friends.
God Bless
“There are things i definitely disagree about with Teen mania but because of the lives that are changing for the Lord and due to the fact that there is no other place that equips so well, i will silence myself.”
Brian…I STRONGLY disagree. There are many, many, many other organizations that provide Christians real training in real ministries without spiritual abuse, financial manipulation, putting people in physical danger, etc. I would be curious to hear exactly what Teen Mania IS doing to “equip people so well” that NO ONE else is.
Also, before RA has a chance to say it…you should TOTALLY read the comment policy. 🙂
RA…keep up the great work!
To Brian S.
I would encourage you to study the role of the local church in the Body of Christ. From everything I have studied in Christ’s ministry and in the ministry of the Apostles, it seems that there is no Biblical basis for organizations such as TM that set themselves above or apart from the local church. To say that there is no other place like TM that equips leaders like Teen Mania does, is in direct contrast to God’s plan and purpose for the local church as demonstrated in the New Testament. Please re-consider your idea that Teen Mania is the best place for training Christian Leaders.
Brian,
Thanks for your comments. I didn’t read them in entirety because after reading this part I pretty much gave up hope that your post would do any good.
“do you honestly believe it is righteous or even biblically correct for you to speak ill of such a place.”
Honestly, I *personally* couldn’t care less about whether it is “righteous” or “biblically correct” but, I am probably unique in that because I am an Atheist. But, from what I have read in the Bible coupled with a few of RA’s posts, I would say you need to do some more reading. It would be completely inappropriate for us to NOT say anything about the abuse we have endured from the HA.
Brian S.: “…do you honestly believe it is righteous or even biblically correct for you to speak ill of such a place.”
Yes.
The OT prophets spoke ill of the spiritual leaders of Israel when they led people astray (read any prophetic book at random).
Jesus spoke ill of the Pharisees and Sadducees when they taught abusive legalism (read Matthew 23).
Paul spoke ill of teachers and leaders in the church when they distorted the Gospel (read Galatians and 1 Corinthians).
John spoke ill of abusive leaders by name when they preyed on the flock (read 2 John).
All these were “honorable” religious institutions of their day. Yet the prophets, the apostles, and the Lord Himself didn’t pull their punches when they saw people were being hurt and getting the wrong idea about the Gospel.
Then read Ezekiel 33. If you silence yourself when you know people are being hurt, their blood is on your head.
Honor Academy is physically, emotionally, and spiritually abusive to people in the name of Jesus. That is blasphemy of His character. If you know that fact, to be silent about it is an unrighteous and unbiblical act.
Also– sorry, but “There is no other place that equips so well,” is a simply laughable statement. Have you by chance ever heard of a little place called Moody Bible Institute? (My alma mater.) Or how about YWAM Discipleship Training School? Operation Mobilization? Or as Anon 12:15 pointed out, any local church anywhere? But even if it were true, which it’s not, it would not excuse the kind of abuse that goes on.
I do see that your heart is in the right place, so I don’t want to condemn you. I just think you should redirect your spiritual zeal against those who are actually hurting vulnerable youth in the name of Jesus. Don’t feel that you need to defend the indefensible out of a misguided notion of “commitment” or “honor.” As Peter said, “We must obey God rather than men.” Your commitment to God trumps any paper you signed with the HA.
its like what Ghandi once said “I don’t reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It’s just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ” im sorry for any of your bad experiences i know that sometimes Christians are the worst ones to tell about Christ but i still really want to go to HA. I am a strong willed person (and i say this respectfully i am not saying you are weak) and i have seen authority crush people. I know how this works and i am going to take all i can from HA and leave what i dont need because after all i’m going for God and i refuse to let ANYONE get in the way of me and Him. I wish you all love and blessings in your lives and remember that Jesus’ mission was ALWAYS love and that is the doctrine we need. I do have one question though please can anyone tell me how many miles or how long do you run every am. I am trying to get more in shape so the am workouts wont be so hard on me. Thnx for taking your time to listen to me. Have a beautiful day guys! Love you all! 1Peter 2:9
So how many people posting on here are or ever will be honor academy alumni? Better yet how many people just don’t like Teen Mania, never will and have never gone to the Honor Academy?
Reason i ask is i’m trying to figure out how many people really chose to forget about the “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” (John 8:7)
I mean seriously, do you guys have a better option of choice from the Honor Academy or Teen Mania. Is there some amazing ministry or organization that is doing something that in your eyes seems “Perfect”. So many of you seem to have these issues and problems with this place but how many of you lead? shepherd? do you know what it really takes to lead hundreds of people?
There is alot of pride on this site, perhaps many of you were truly hurt and not just feel like complaining, but still what’s your solution. If you could have gone back and done something different where would you go. True leaders don’t just get upset and complain, they find an answer and get it done. This website doesn’t seem like its actually “healing or helping” people, it just gets everyone together to have a great gossip party.
The thing you must ask yourself is really this… have you thought about 1 Cor 3:8-15. This scripture is about judgement on us as leaders as to how we affect and build up the people…”the church”. RA, you lead this website, all this stuff that you are using to build the people up on this website.. do you think this will truly remain when it is tested by the “fire”. The scripture is obviously a metaphor but it is truth to the reality of eternal accountability.
Do you think you are ready for that ending?
Also, i personally thought the comment policy was rather humorous. So my thanks to “Robbie”, it seems like those who actually are on the side of HA or TM pretty much can’t speak there mind as much as anyone else and that’s fine.
Eric – Come on you are going to compare idolaters, adulterers, dictators who lead out of fear and the rest to TM.. this is a joke right. “preying on the flock”, its rather dumb to use such comparisons. Yes they were so called “institutions” but one’s in which lead completely away from God and had no understanding of God’s word… would you care to give me an example of them leading “away from God”.
“physically, emotionally, and spiritually abusive to people in the name of Jesus”. Really?? i mean really. lol, i’m sorry you didn’t like “corporate” or “esoal”(which by the way wasn’t manditory). Emotional abuse, let me know about your best example of that one cause its just silly.
Now spiritual this all depends on your view of scripture. If you are one that hold the “opinions” to a “conviction” then i can see your problem. Example, women preaching and teaching.. i personally find the context of scriptures don’t say that women are not allowed to “pasotor today” but that’s my opinion. If this is your conviction then fine, but what spiritual abuse are we talking about here. Its not like he his Benny Hinn, now that’s spiritual abuse.
To all – what is this “We must obey God rather than men.” Can someone give me scripture and their specific problem in this, how TM is completely against God in a particular area. I’m just so confused by all the complaints, YOU CAN WALK AWAY FROM TM IF YOU WANT TO ITS NOT LIKE THEY ARE HOLDING YOU IN CHAINS YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING AND YOU HAVE FEET ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS WALK.
By the way Ra. About the “Matthew 18” problem, its silly interpretation but there’s plenty of other verses in the bible that share the exact same point everyone is trying to make with you. If you have a problem finding them i’ll be more than happy to post them up as well just let me know.
brian s.
Although i found your post poorly written, i will take the time to respond from a personal point of view.
1. I was a 5 year missionary and am an honor academy alumna. I am still friends with some very prominent members of TM in its current state. I frequently and fully participate in posting on this website and support what RA has started 100%.
2. I do have better choices than Teen Mania. I have a wide variety of options and here are some of organizations I have participated in: Nashville Community Gardening, International Rescue Committee, Catholic Charities, The University of Virginia, The Jazz Workshop in Nashville. These are all organizations dedicated to personal growth, helping others, or building community. They all manage to do these things without abusing others in the process, unlike Teen Mania. I do have better options, and I do choose to utilize those options.
3. Pride. I am proud of myself. I am proud of myself for recognizing a malfunctioning and spiritually abusive organization. I am proud of myself for sounding my voice. I am proud of myself for being part of a collective of voices that is being raised against the ridiculous and harmful ways that Teen Mania operates. If people don’t raise their voices in protest, there is no opportunity for change. How do you think we have schools now that allow both black and white, male and female? This would not have been possible if people had not RAISED THEIR VOICES in protest to the system in place. I am proud to be raising my voice against something that has damaged so many people in name of God.
As for the scriptural references, I feel I do not have to accept your interpretation of them. Enough said on that.
Moriah
great… Now what’s your specific problem with them. i mean you are an alumni, like myself and yet you completely disagree with TM and HA. I respect and appreciate your options on different places. So Why? what specific upsets you i’m really trying to understand. You spent nearly 7,500 dollars are more during your time so whats the specific problem. All i seem to be hearing about are issues in which people decided not to grow up. They were “offended” per say so please tell me there is something real tangible that is not beyond “they made me upset because they didn’t treat me fair”.
As for the HA, i love it and went there in 08. I’m a leader at my church and disciple on the side, going to bible college, have lead in churches for the last 7 years and i’m 22. I know the inn’s and out’s of ministries well.
I love the HA cause it taught me to grow up and lead well. I’ve gone through 3 divorces in my family, almost didn’t go to the HA because of a girl. Was saved by an ATF event, my life revolves around TM, without them i wouldn’t be who i am now. I know many many people including my best friend who radically changed in his life during only one year.
So yes i’m not just asking for proof but scripture because it is the one thing people don’t tend to use much on this site, we as christians should base off every point of our lives by scripture and this no less. If there is no real contextual scripture then what you are saying really has no grounds according to God’s word(Hebrews 4:12) or what about (1 Cor. 13:1-13; Matthew 18:15; Matthew 18:15-19).. so far all these verses fly in the face of this website which is not doing according to any of those verses. We are not showing love, mastering gossip and anger, from what i’ve seen it appears TM has reached out for RA but nothing has come of that…. i wonder why??
So yes to scripture…
Brian S. –
Read. Read. Read. There are many MANY posts here that site scripture extensively.
Also, it’s difficult to follow and/or take what you are saying seriously when you don’t take the time to correct your punctuation, spelling, and grammar. Not very “statesman-like” are we? Tisk Tisk.
It is hurtful to invalidate someone’s experience and feelings. Saying, “just grow up!” to a victim of molestation wouldn’t be conductive to that individual’s growth, don’t you think? So why would you do that in response to these ladies and gentleman who are expressing and acknowledging painful experiences?
Brain S. – But see, this is exactly what I mean:
Your comment is rude, insulting, and uncivil–“That’s a joke right… its [sic] rather dumb… its just silly… lol…”
You clearly haven’t bothered to read the many, many posts here that have already addressed your objections in great detail (start with this one), with dozens of specific real-life examples of abuse and scores of Bible references. (My favorite Scripture is Colossians 2, if you care.)
You cite Scripture references that actually contradict what you’re trying to say. For instance, Matthew 18:17 says to go take your accusations publicly to the church if the offending party won’t respond. And is your attitude in your comment really consistent with 1 Cor. 13? (How about “love does not boast”?)
You want a specific example of how Honor Academy leads people away from God? I present your own comment. A dedicated follower of God should be compassionate, gentle, caring, and kind, not a commonplace internet troll. (2 Timothy 2:25 and Galatians 5:22-25.) I am convinced the tree is bad simply because it produces fruit like this. (Luke 6:43-45.)
As Jesus said, “Now go and learn the meaning of this phrase: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'” (Matthew 9:13.)
Well said, Eric P. Thank you for expressing yourself so eloquently and with sound logic.
From what I hear, we will be getting an influx of these “TM is perfect and never does anything wrong” visitors because someone posted some stuff on FB.
Yay for more Christian “love” and compassion! BTW, I was being very sarcastic!
brian.
you and i are on very different intellectual levels. i accept this and wish you well in your future efforts to express your self through writing.
moriah
Moriah i apologize so much that i could not better present myself in the light of such intellect that you hold me to. Forgive me for being in the midst of performing some ministry related tasks at the time of my writting to now stop and show myself “approved” in your eyes.
Beyond this i still wish to address one simple truth to which you and many others continue to not address and most likely never will. I want to listen to not only your view but biblical evidence of the evil that is so called occuring within TM or HA. If i were told your specific references and scriptural points, perhaps by then i could better understand your view.
As for now i’ve seen maybe two or three comments on this page alone with vere references. I’ve listed many of my own.
To Shannon Kish,Layne and Eric – I am actually very sorry if my words were harsh, but no lesser were Paul’s when he wrote to the Corinthians because of the abuse of so called “Intellect” that moriah feels i lack. Simply put the truth is still the truth no matter how well you address it, but for your sake i do my best to be flawless in my efforts.
Please do others like myself a favor and comment against the HA or TM with evidence and biblical context of scripture. This doesn’t mean we should accend Matthew 9:13 into the skies and say “Have mercy Have mercy”. Find a scripture that gives wings to your view in the context of which the verse was written for. Any individual who has received an education from college has learned that he best argument involves not only proof but reason. For you my brothers and sisters, your reason should always be based on text of scripture.. no more and no less.
I understand some of your hearts but for many i can’t comprehend how you remain in love and compassion for all when your own comments would be seen as horrible as you feel of mine when met by the eyes of other outsiders, this being one of the reasons why my heart was so crushed by the many comments i have witnessed on this page.
So many individuals speak about how horrible and evil this place was, but yet for many of us it was the one place where God helped us when we needed it the most.
It seems that you would desire to take away such a place entirely if you only had the power to do so, but even if this were so could you not imagine how many more might suffer the loss of salvation for your own needs to be met. How many of you walked and talked with your intern friends only to find out that they were saved from hell because they had come to be an intern of the HA, and from their lifestyle they came to Christ.
I can’t imagine what the picture would be like in hell for the number of souls that would now be there if the HA was non-existent. Is your personal pains and desires worth this?
Brian S. – I would encourage you to learn to walk in Love. There are several posts on this site that I don’t agree with either, but I can see the hurt that these folks have experienced, and I have compassion. When I read your posts, I hear someone who sounds more like a Pharisee than like Jesus, and I am more inclined than ever to defend the people who have been hurt and abused by TM.
My grandfather was very abusive to my uncle, but he never laid a hand on my father. So, my father and my uncle had two totally different upbringings. Does that mean my grandfather wasn’t abusive? No, it just means that my father was not abused. You may have had a better experience at TM, but it doesn’t mean that others weren’t abused.
I am familiar with Matthew 18 because I have completed several studies on that chapter both by myself and with my church. Since I believe that TM has set itself up outside of the confines of the local church, then there would be no way to correctly “go to the church” after approaching them with one or two witnesses. I believe that RA has begun the third step in this process to the best of his/her ability since TM is outside of church leadership. There are many stories of step one and two being handled properly by several people on this website. I suggest you read them.
I didn’t realize that TM was so much bigger than God. Silly me. How can God save people without TM and the HA?
Brian S–
True story: a good friend of mine got saved when some Jehovah’s Witnesses gave her a Watchtower Bible. So if it wasn’t for a heretical legalistic cult, she might be on the way to hell. I say Praise God! But I also still say that the JWs present a false view of Jesus and a distorted version of the Scriptures. Just because God used them for good, it doesn’t mean everything they do or teach is good. When the JWs teach for instance that doing evangelism improves your standing with God, they’re just plain wrong, even though God did use them to save my friend. See my point? (Deuteronomy 13:1-3 may be relevant.)
I gave six Scripture references in my comment above, six in the comment above that, and five more in another comment to you; why are you still saying we don’t use Scripture? Didn’t you like any of them?!
Start with Colossians 2:23 and compare it in context to the doctrines of ESOAL/BAR. (ESOAL teaches that if you are severe to your body you can overcome your flesh; Colossians 2 says that’s not true. You take it from there.)
On my website I have an extensive list of verses that speak directly to the teachings that many abusive religious groups similar to Honor Academy put forth. Antidotes to Spiritual Abuse (not specific to HA but quite a few points are applicable).
Matthew 9:13 in context actually disproves a number of Honor Academy teachings, which was why I quoted it. For instance, it says God does not desire sacrifice. God doesn’t care how hard you worked on ministry-related tasks to become an elite warrior. He only cares whether you are merciful to those who are hurting and in need, like many of the people on this website whom you so callously brush off. “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Have mercy. Have mercy.
That’s what it means in context. And that’s what I’ll spend the rest of my life ascending into the skies. Kyrie eleison.
Brian.
My last statement was made without without malice or ill -will. Its just a simple fact. I never implied that you are less intellectual or I am less spiritual. “Different” doesn’t mean greater or less. It simply means different. You and I speak different languages and are obviously at very different places in our lives. Its ok. It doesn’t make you invalid. It doesn’t make me invalid. Just different.
Again, I wish you well in your communication endeavors.
Moriah
Brian – I didn’t realize that at the ripe old age of 22, you were already so experienced! Wow, 7 years in ministry? Man, you must have it all together! LOL. Come talk to me when you are 30 and we’ll both laugh about how ignorant and arrogant you were…no offense, I say the same thing about myself at that age!
There are PLENTY of posts backed by Scripture – why don’t you go read and comment on those instead of acting like I never base my views on Scripture?
Honestly, I would rather you didn’t because you already have your mind made up. And that is fine. I encourage you to re-commit yourself to your zealous efforts – more than ever before. That way you will burn out quicker, see the depths of your own spiritual poverty and come back to our group with a different perspective. We will welcome you back at that time.
Brian, I would provide you with scripture, however, I don’t like to throw scripture at Christians. You see, I am no longer a Christian because a lot of people, similar to you, decided that I wasn’t good enough, and that the pain I was going through was merely but a speck and therefore not important. So, when I cried out to the god that I once believed in, they fell on deaf ears. I guess, in a way, god was telling me that my pain was merely a speck.
Brian, your posts actually grieves me. I can’t really be mad at the points you bring up, because I was exactly like you when I left the HA. I’m sorry, really. I don’t want that to sound patronizing AT ALL. I really am sorry that this is what you believe. Truly.
But, like RA said, your mind is set, and it’s going to take an act of God for your opinion to change. I don’t mean that in some ridiculous sarcastic hyperbole, I mean that as truth. Ask me how I know 😉
And it’s okay if your opinion doesn’t change! You may always view TM in a glowing light, and that’s fine. But why share it here, and in such a self-righteous way? Do you feel that calling TM out on its abusive patterns is a personal attack on you, or is it that Hasz and Luce, men you greatly respect, are being questioned, so you feel the desire to come to their defense?
Or are you trying to stir up controversy? 😉 I only ask cause I used to do it too!
Forget it, no matter what i say your minds are made up and it seems it would be a waste of time to speak anything more.
brian s,
did you know (and i’m sincerely sure, without meaning to), you are perpetuating spiritual abuse under the guise of (disturbingly misused) scriptural rebuke? until you become aware of this, sites like this will never make sense to you. rather, they will bring up a deep and deafening defensiveness that you will repeatedly shout to those who have been hurt and abused, over and over again. this does more damage than almost any other action you could take. and i can only speak for myself here, but the bible has been abused by those in authority over me, to keep me under tight control, to induce paralyzing feelings of guilt and fear, and to protect those whose actions have caused great physical, emotional, and spiritual trauma in my life. the word of god is not a weapon to be wielded against the wounded. and i truly hope you can hear this and find a place of Love from which to speak and share (even if you don’t believe that Love exists here).
in your quest to rebuke us, or defend TM, i would present these questions to ask yourself when you feel triggered (even righteously so).
1) is there unmitigated love presented with my rebuke?
2) will my honest and sincere attempt to “fix it” perpetuate the wounds that many of these brothers and sisters received?
3) is there something inside of me that feels the need to fight so dogmatically based in something else besides the situation at hand?
4) would prayer and blessing be a better option?
i know you, brian. i AM you. we were all you at some point. there is no separation between any of us, unless we believe that separation exists. i pray you find abounding Love with which to search your Heart, love your God, and speak your Truth.
I was CCM in 2007-08 january class. I was dismissed april 08 due to the fact Doug said I was just simply different. I butt heads with the CCM staff in January when they called me into a council meeting in which they bombarded me with a load of complaints interns apparently had with me.
I had no idea people were complaining to leadership about me. They apparently just didnt like my habits and personality and had a crapload of isses I had no idea about.
They put me on a “growth plan” which I failed to keep up with epically. they dismissed me a month later, and in all honesty those board meetings still haunt me
Anonymous- WHAT?! Uuugggh! I know Doug can kind of be unrelatable sometimes, but THAT’S ridiculous.
MAN, I am SO SORRY. As a former CCMer, I’m DISGUSTED with how that situation was handled. Despite the Honor Academy, CCM was my greatest TM experience… obviously things have changed.
I love how the Lord doesn’t just get sick of His people and throw them out. Anonymous, I’m totally praying for you, and that you would know UNCONDITIONAL acceptance. You’re safe here.
I am a HA Alum Jan 02. The majority of the oppression that I experienced was from other interns. Looking back at the HA time from the vantage point of now being a non-believer is a rather interesting experience. I hold a B.A. in Biblical Studies now, and that gives another vantage point.
I think that TM is good intentioned, but too overconfident, and so convinced that they are doing the will of God, that they have made the error of the early Church in thinking that the Church was infallible because it was doing God’s work. Resultingly, many Christians were ostracized 451AD and 1054AD.
The majority of the spiritual abuse I suffered was from interns. Many weren’t prepared for a mature Christian, who had eagerly learned Vs simply read his bible for years before going to the HA. Many of the issues covered there, I had already struggled through.
I remember my CA trying to tell me that I couldn’t have the level of spiritual discipline and maturity that I claimed to have, instead it was because I was deluded because of overconfidence. When I disputed this, he, a recent convert of 2 years, claimed to be my spiritual leader and I needed to accept his judgment.
You see, I was overenthusiastic due to what I perceived at the time (1996) to be a spiritual experience I had that altered my perceptions. It affected my value systems making me perceive untold value in following and loving God. I wanted to obey everything in the Bible. I was excited to find new sin to root out. I fought pride fiercely years before the HA, not only in my dealings with others, but also in my dealings with my own desires and aspirations. I would constantly ask myself, is this for God or for me, even when daydreaming.
In the years following the HA, I would prefer to talk about God with people than continue in a conversation with a girl I liked.
At the HA, I was confronted a lot. I had a friend who I wasn’t sexually attracted to at all, but rather just connected with. I saw her as my sister, and more relateable than the cookie cutter religious drones, or the equally unrelatable but much better, enthusiastic newbie Christians.
I remember when in the room, a group of my roommates were having a discussion as to whom the hottest girl in the sister core was, and being just mortified, that most of this devotion was social, and not internally induced.
I got confronted a lot, and I tried to be humble and see if “God was speaking through them” each time. I always gave it the benefit of the doubt, except for the one time someone gave me “a word from the Lord” that I needed to surrender completely to God. I was like “What the heck? What else do I even care about in life at all?
The trauma I experienced mostly was finding out that few Christians were naturally passionate about God, and the majority of passion at TM was socially induced through social constructs of oughts ect.
I didn’t stop believing in God because of “Falling away”. I just couldn’t explain away the evidence against the validity of the Bible as God-inspired.
My honor ring sits on the table in front of me. I don’t wear it. I haven’t returned it to TM, because I don’t think they really care. If they really want it back, then I will send it to them. I am not too attached to it, but my wife likes it. I can read it now in Hebrew though. It isn’t a direct quote from Song of Songs, but more like an abbreviated form…
I have since begun prepping for a transition from Theology to Psychology. I have taken many Psych classes now.
I think that the other interns are what makes the HA most abusive, more than the staff. I think the interns are the way they are, because they are not properly managed. A lot of the problem seems to come from assumptions that the interns are taking these things to heart out of internal drive, rather than external social conditioning. The interns take the words from Dave and Ron and create a stifling environment of social conditioning with them.
wow. Anonymous @ May 14 – getting dismissed from CCM? Isn’t that supposed to be more like a school? your parents should sue for all the thousands of dollars they paid for you to be a slave to the ministry. Yeah – knew Doug – he’s a jerk. That place is a joke – I can’t believe kids are signing up to pay that much to just do work for TM that they make money from.
When I first heard about this site, I thought “Wow, what a bitter bunch of people, they must be off their rockers.”. I would like to apologize for jumping to that conclusion and being judgmental.
The reason I’m posting anonymously instead of under my real name is b/c I’m slightly nervous to. Reading this site, I’ve come to understand why people feel the way they do and feel that people have legitimate concerns. I’m even starting to come to the conclusion that I may have come away from the HA slightly spiritually harmed myself. Do I regret my year at the HA? No, absolutely not. I did learn a lot and came away a better and more mature person in many ways. I also met many wonderful people and made some wonderful friends. I will never ever ever forget Michael Tackett, his death was one of the hardest things I’ve dealt with in my (admittedly short, I’m only 26) life. But I was honored to know him.
However, I’m realizing slowly that I frittered part of my year trying to meet a standard and be someone that wasn’t necessarily me. I felt so pressured to be “good” and be the “perfect intern” that I spent time trying to attain that label. Part of that is my own fault, I knew better going in, but I was set up for it in a way going in to it by the environment I was brought up in. Now I find myself confused and trying to figure out how I feel about the Honor Academy and some of the hurtful experiences I had. I’m still a Christian, I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka I’m Mormon) so some people might not even consider me a Christian, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be accepted to go on a Mission Trip with GE if I applied, and the fact that I even suspect that Teen Mania would doubt my Christianity and possibly ask for my Ring back as a result of me being LDS makes me stop and think.
I don’t even know what I’m trying to say, maybe this post makes more sense to someone out there who reads it than it does to me… at any rate, I pray that God heals everyone who needs it.
@anon 1:157
You are ALWAYS welcome here. Thanks for hearing us. I hope it gives you courage to let your voice and experience be heard as well.
Thanks. At this point I’m still trying to figure out what I heard, saw, and experienced that was right or wrong. I’m starting with the things that have always kind of nagged at my subconscious, like when I was told that I needed to start wearing make-up and doing something with my hair before going to classes and ministry placement, because I wasn’t taking enough pride in my appearance or something of the sort that caused me to end up feeling like I had to put on a mask of makeup. It’s kind of hard to realize that a whole year of your life that you’ve always considered to be one of the best things ever had wrong stuff in it. I was a good intern, I was Silver level graduate for heaven’s sake, so realizing now that things weren’t always what they seemed and that the HA has been a tool for some major hurt to a lot of people, is kind of hard to swallow. It’s probably my own pride too.
John,
thanks for sharing your story. I would love to talk as I am no longer a believer either.
http://www.facebook.com/shannonkish
or shannonkish @ gmaildotcom
Hey everyone, I was an Aug 01 intern and I agree with the vast majority of everything that is being said here. One thing that I am curious about though…my ESOAL experience seems to be much different then others. We were certainly pressured to do it (ie, it will be an experience you wont forget…) I was a team leader and rang out with about 24 more hours left… It seemed like we were encouraged not to talk about how we did or even discuss the various ridiculous things they had us do…I don’t really remember feeling guilty about ringing out by anyone. As a matter of fact as soon as I did there were people that came up to me and congratulated me on a great job… I was physically fit and capable of finishing I basically just got bored and decided on the ruse that God was “teaching me humility” by me not finishing… I agree that it is a largely silly excercise and makes sense for military not TM but I didn’t really experience much condemnation with it…Was that a much different experience then others? and did anyone else enjoy the cat food? (jk)
I couldn’t read everyone’s post, but I would like to comment. I do think that often people in leadership for some reason feel compelled to always have an answer for what someone is going through. It isn’t always possible to understand what someone is going through. The list he gave was a valid list, if you feel far from God, a lack of those things could contribute to it. You knew that yourself from what you indicated. However, sometimes we just go through dry times in life, and it has nothing to do with something we are doing wrong. There are ups and there are downs. It is impossible to always live on a high. It sounds as if you just became worn out, and needed some down time that was less pressured. You just needed reasurrance that God didn’t leave you, and you just needed to rest in that.
I remember that that year was a highly pressurized year, that really did prepare me for the mission field. However, it wasn’t the be all and end all. I still had to learn alot over time from various mentors, and just by walking things out with the Lord. (I don’t think that I could have made it another full year at that pace either.)
I’m sorry that you had to live through the feelings of guilt or unworthiness. Sounds like you just overwhelmed yourself, and you needed rest. Satan has attacked me with those feelings at various times through the actions of various people, and through various circumstances.(outside the internship) Those were hard times. When we sit in judgment of ourselves, find ourselves lacking, and see no hope for change, that has got to be one of the worst feelings. Sometimes there is need for change, but God is the only one who can bring it about. Other times, people are judging us by something that they went through, and we need to let go of the guilt and condemnation and trust ourselves to the Lord. God has healed my heart and taught me even through those times though, and I know He is teaching you as well.
Sometimes we just have to walk through a time trusting that God is there, He hasn’t left us. And that He will bring us out on the other side. Life isn’t a sprint. And it is unpredictable. No one’s life or journey is exactly the same, and there really aren’t formulas.
I hope that you are back to having good times with the Lord, and that He is healing your heart. At some point, this will all need resolution, or none of you who were hurt will ever find peace. It may have needed confrontation, but you will need wisdom in how to bring it to a close. I pray that God will give it to you. 🙂
Here’s something I heard once. “The teacher never talks during a test.”
Maybe that helps, maybe not, but that’s a thought.
Yup….I read enough. My two year old behaves better then you all. Really no offense.
I can really appreciate your blog. My husband (who I actually met on our C trip to Romania in ’03… go figure lol) and I have spent countless hours reflecting on our extensive involvement and blind following of Teen Mania. Only now in hindsight as 20-somethings do we see the harm and deception of this organization. I will give credit where credit is due in that becase of TM I stayed out of trouble as a teen, but as I’ve grown up several people have come forward to let me know how hurtful I was during that time (or as I like to lovingly call it- “the “Cult Years” lol). They taught me to be so one-track-minded and really, anything but loving. It breaks our hearts to see the way that TM manipulates young minds and fills them so full of nothing but hype and emotions. Sad to say, but Teen Mania is the reason we don’t go to church and why we question God… we have no desire to surround ourselves with the types of people we used to be.
God does it feel good to say this outloud!
@ Anon (June 29 – 7:40 PM) – You must be an amazing parent! I hope that your 2 year old never has to experience the spiritual/emotional abuse that the folks here have experienced. However, if your child does experience this type of abuse, I sure hope you respond to your child with more compassion than you did to these folks. And I love the added “Really no offense” comment. It definitely seemed sincere (sarcasm).
Hi my name is Erika. I have been going to Acquire the Fire for years and i would like to do the drama for atf, I heard that you must be in ha for a year to do this. Is it true. Ive tried look it up but i cant seem to find it.
As for going im not sure. I feel to go to this acadomy u have to be spiritually and mentually for it. Its not for everyone. As for being “abused” im not sure if it is really counted. Going into HA u know what you will be put up against. I know If do attend HA I deffinitely wont do esoal because i know its not for me. But I do feel so sorry for the people with the rape stories. I’m sorry to say but that can happen anywhere and people don’t take charge for their responsibilities.
I also have a question in the mornings do you run everyday and for how long. Also do they allow you to walk a little bit?
Thank you for putting up this page even though I don’t agree on some of your views.The answer to these questions should help me make up my choice. I still have a lot of time because I am a junior but it doesnt hurt to be prepared.
thank you 🙂
Are you a good actor? Do you have any special skills (singing, dancing, acting, playing an instrument, etc) that you’re killer at?
If so, I’d try to get in contact with upper-level people, send in audition tapes, etc. Normally you’d be required to do a year at HA first, but you never know – if you’ve got the chops, and you talk to people who can make those kinds of decisions (i.e. not the interns on the phones – someone in management over at ATF), they might be willing to bump you straight to the tour. ATF is pretty much always looking for stable people who have acting talent and/or experience. If that’s what you want, and you think you can do it, I’d go ahead and make the pitch to upper-level ATF management that you should be able to jump straight to the tour. The worst thing that could happen is that they say no.
Be aware that doing a year at HA in no way guarantees that you will be an actor on the tour, or even that you will be able to go on the ATF tour. ATF Ministry Team actors go through an audition process, and usually there are only about 6-8 people that are chosen per tour (usually 2 tours) as actors (although occasionally they will have to be replaced, so maybe there’d be a second chance there).
If at some point they say “OK, you can for sure be an actor, but first you have to do X, Y, and Z and then in X months you’ll go on tour.” – and your agreeable to their terms – play it cool, but get that agreement in writing from them, preferably signed by both parties. Be as gentle as a dove, and as wise as a snake.
I’m not saying go, I’m not saying don’t go. Just an FYI.
It’s also pretty much impossible to know what you’re getting into before you’re there. So much of your experience is impacted by the people around you. So for exercise – you could have awesome encouraging people or you could have power-tripping machoman crazies who run you into the ground. You could have an awesome Core Advisor or you could have a terrible Core Advisor. Your roommates could end up being your best friends, or people you can’t stand to be around. You could love your job there or you could hate your job there. Or anywhere in between.
If you do go: keep a good head on your shoulders. Not everything that will be told to you is truth. Test everything by the scriptures – cling to the good, and let the bad drift away. Read books from different viewpoints. Never accept the party line just because the people around you believe it and its what’s taught – ALWAYS dig into what the full counsel of scripture has to say about things. Love Jesus. Love others. Learn to filter BS and eschew hype in favor of the quietness of reality. Don’t be cynical – but dig into the scriptures, and realize that there’s a fairly limited array of viewpoints being told to you by TM leadership, and they’re not true just because someone you respect told them to you. Test it by the scriptures, yo. Run things by trusted spiritual advisers back home, too.
If you do a preview weekend: talk to people. Talk to the people who love it. Also talk to the rebels, outcasts, etc that don’t fit the mold of everyone else there. Talk to the people with awesome ministry placements, and also to the people with blah ministry placements.
It’s possible to have a great experience at TM. It’s possible to have a terrible experience at TM. Some things you would be taught there will be true. Some will not.
Love God, love others, pray for guidance by the Holy Spirit, and get counsel from wise, spiritually mature people in your life (if you don’t have any – find some! Quick!)
I’m sorry to say but that can happen anywhere and people don’t take charge for their responsibilities.
I’m sorry… I usually don’t post here, but I pray that your heart can find what is wrong with that statement. A rape victim or an abuse victim whether a child or an adult usually have done NOTHING that would EVER make them responsible for a rape or abuse. What did Joseph do in the Bible to be abused by his brothers? And didn’t David’s daughter get raped by her brothers?
I didnt mean it like that. I meant that rape happens all the time and people (not rape victim) don’t do anything about it. I would never think that its a persons fault for that. I meant that instead of actually the business going on trial they find a way out of it and eays not to spend money.
Erika
and thank you for the advice. Hopefully it will make my decision easier. all I need is God to guide me <3 Erika
Each persons experience is different and how you respond to it is different. Some people are supposed to be there and some aren’t. Reading these Im kinda surprised and some of the things said i don’t understand. Maybe its because I was on a different campus. I still talk to most of my sisters and my CA. If i had questions i could have them answered no matter what it was or what my problem. some of the things Im reading i couldnt see happening, but then I wasnt’ on the south campus. Situations arose between the two campuses. I wish the North campus was still running it might have saved alot of grief and anger that im reading.
If a CA is accusing you of this and that because you didn’t get baptized, maybe they need to rethink things.
I think this idea gets into interns that if you don’t graduate theres something wrong with you.
No past intern or present intern has the right to judge what anyone went through.
If anyone wants to talk about their experience with me, fill free to. What you went through is what you went through, no reason to judge or call anyone a lier.
I was an intern from Aug 04 to Jan 05 (got kicked out) came back Jan 06 – Aug 2008(Intern-CA-6 month CA)
I was first introduce to the HA 2 weeks after salvation in Aug of 2004 needless to say i didn’t really fit in at the HA… After being dismissed and working with inner city kids out of Detroit in 06 I felt like the Lord was calling me back to the Honor Academy,I hated being told what to do so the HA wasn’t on the top of my list. but I went, I never really connected with Dave or the “big wigs” of the HA but man I built some of the most mazing relationships i will every have in my life, including a past g/f’s, best friends, and the guys from my Family Core are still close contact. some of which are married, or on there way to being married. I said all that to say this. It’s not all bad, and different people expirence different things in different way… i didn’t expierence a drop of of the Lord presents like that until year and a half after the HA.. but i don’t think it was anything that i did or that I was responsible for… it just happend, but it did teach me that life and how you live it is a mental choice in how you want to live your life. sorry for being so long winded. Good luck man, God bless If your ever in Florida let me know. dinners on me. lol hit me up on FB
all that being said they do introduce thousands of people to the Lord every year…millions might be eventually affected for the gosple because of what that organization has produced.
I would also like to add that it can be dangerous no matter where you are if your
looking to a place to fullfill your spiritual needs. IE finding your identity in them VS the Lord
After reading this I only have one question for you…Did you get better after you left? Did God find you, or did you still feel despair? Is it possible that maybe as good as TM is, God was calling you to do something else and you weren’t responding? Not everyone is called into the same ministry and when we don’t do what God calls us to do, he always finds a way to “move” us to where we are supposed to be.
me….You’ll find the answers you seek if you read the rest of the site. Especially the recovery category.
How can you blame this feeling on TMM? Isn’t possible that you were not listening to God and that you were, in fact, not suppose to go to the Honor Academy a second year? Of course, no one there would tell you that because it wouldn’t even come to their minds. I had a similar experience, but with a university. I wasn’t really happy there and couldn’t seem to focus on the school part of school. Everyone there assumes that you have been called to be there so they never mention that, and instead offer other possible reasons. I ended switching over to another no name public college and LOVE it there. I know that that is where I need to be right now.
Miss Priss – that is a good question. How can I blame this feeling on TM?
Because they gave it to me! They preached it to me, they gave it to me in counseling sessions. Every time I reached out for help they told me this feeling was my fault and not a normal part of the Christian life. Even Dave Hasz, director of the Honor Academy at that time, and now COO, essentially told me that I wasn’t being a good enough Christian.
That is why I blame them.
So, what happened after you left and went back home? How did you solve your problem of feeling so separated from God?
Thank you for posting that. I find this very enlightening.
The most interesting part to me is that there are patterns that stay the same… cults, right-wings, “personal development” groups, dating gurus… it all boils down to one rather simple formula:
You MUST do this-and-that, or else you’re doomed. And of course, this-and-that becomes ever more complicated, and ever more impossible to follow, so that it’s always the person who is to blame, and never the method.
It is sooo simple, when you think of it! So terribly banal and easy for a scam artist or a cult leader.
I kind of wanted to be the 200th comment. I’m glad I went out on a limb to do so. Yippee!
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