Many an intern has had dysfunctional romantic relationships because of Ron Luce’s fear-based teachings on marriage and courtship. In his character development class, Ron Luce teaches the Honor Academy interns the “godly” way to have a romantic relationship. He presents a several step process (I quit listening after #6) based on the formula of friendship first, courtship second. He encourages all the interns to have their future love interests listen to Ron’s teachings on this topic.
In fact, Ron is SO committed to this process that he says, “You can have the right person, but you mess up the process – Bam! You have a horrible marriage, or a horrible first 5 years of marriage or whatever.”
That is a pretty serious statement. If you don’t go about this right, you are going to have a terrible marriage!! So, it’s important that we do follow the Biblical guidelines on how to find and date/court our spouse.
So what does the Bible say about how to find a spouse?
Uh….
Uh….
**Crickets**
In fact, the Bible hardly mentions anything about the courting or dating process because in those times the parents arranged the marriages. Not surprisingly, Ron’s sermon is very light on Scripture. For the hour or so that I listened, he only used some verses from Proverbs about wisdom and giving thought to your plans, etc. – NOTHING specific to HOW to find and date your spouse.
Despite the lack of Biblical evidence, Ron is so certain that God has laid out a plan for courting, that he gives an example of a couple who was unsuccessful in their marriage because they, “bypassed all the principles very clearly laid out in scripture.” This principle he was referring to is the one where you must be good friends first before “getting romantic.” (You can find the verse for that in II Opinions.)
So without any supporting Scripture or Christian tradition, Ron claims that his process is the one you must follow if you want to have a good marriage. Where does he get this authority? Certainly not from Scripture.
It is fine for a Christian leader to share their opinion about what they think is a wise course of action based on their understanding of the heart of God and human nature. But when they go beyond that and say that if you fail to follow their formula, your marriage is doomed, they are speaking out of line. If God himself failed to give us a formula for getting to marriage, then I don’t think there is one. And any one that we make up is not Scriptural or from the heart of God.
Am I overstating Ron’s position? I’ll let you be the judge. A few snippets from the HA Alumni podcast on iTunes, dated 8/7/07:
21:00 – Unless you have been great friends with somebody for at least 6 months, there is no way they are ever going to be qualified (to be romantic with you). They could never be qualified. You don’t know this person!
25:45 – (Paraphrase for brevity) If your first year of marriage is hard, it’s because you weren’t friends first. Katie and I had an awesome first year of marriage and it’s only gotten better after that.
Ron gives many other “Biblical” guidelines for your courtship including writing down a contract for your relationship and signing it, remaining emotional virgins, getting permission from the girl’s father before you start a courtship, etc. Are any of these ideas bad? No, not if its in your heart to do them. But neither are these specifically mandated anywhere by God.
The reality is that there is NO formula in the Bible for how to go about dating, courting or whatever else you want to call it. God has given us free will, a heart with specific desires and a mind able to think logically. The most we can do is use these gifts to seek wisdom and listen for the Holy Spirit’s voice. God’s plan for every person is different and unique. Trying to shove everyone into a mold that God didn’t create is not productive, helpful or spiritual.
35 comments:
Funny, I didn’t follow any of those rules, and I have a great marriage! We vaguely knew each other as friends of friends for about 2 months, became friends in 3 weeks (I thought he was cute, he thought I was cute, so we made excuses to start talking to each other), and then started DATING. Heavens to betsy! 8 months later we were engaged, 4 months after that we were married. And our first year of marriage was fantastic, thank you very much.
I’m not saying that’s a good plan for everyone, but really, as RA said, there is no set plan for everyone. I’m sad that Ron focuses so heavily on time and courtship rituals instead of what really makes a relationship work… communication and honesty.
My husband and I had a very specific conversation before we started dating. We weren’t interested in a casual relationship, so we decided that if either of us found out something about the other person that would keep us from marrying them, we would end the relationship, no hard feelings. We both had come out of dysfunctional relationships the year before, so we set boundaries for ours to ensure we didn’t become codependent nutjobs like last time. I told him I valued honesty very highly, and I would never try to trap or manipulate him with my words (I believe the example I used was “If I ask you whether or not I look fat in something, I actually want your real opinion”). And then? We just got to know each other while dating. It was great!
One of my pastors got engaged in two weeks (literally knew her for two weeks, not “friends for blah blah months and then dated for two weeks”), married in 6 months, and they’re still very happy together after 20 years and two kids. Actually, I know two pastors like that, now that I think of it. There’s definitely no set formula.
December 1, 2010 8:52 AM
layne said…
I always disliked how much disdain Ron had for the phrase “falling in love”. He stripped the magic and fun out of dating. I didn’t want to write out and sign a contract with my sig. other, I wanted to go dancing, get lost in the woods, sit at home watching stupid 80’s movies, drink hot chocolate under the stars, drink wine and eat homemade pizza, have fun and play together.
Ron makes a blooming relationship seem like a total bore-fest.
I found that even with all of the disclaimers (“this is not scriptural, I’m just giving advice from years of being married and watching other marriages”), he leads you to believe that his way is the only Godly way. How vain.
December 1, 2010 10:06 AM
Lisa Marie said…
Like Renae’s last paragraph above, i wonder if anyone’s ever asked Ron what he thinks of those 20/30/40+ year marriages that started from people who knew each other for only a few months or weeks before dating/getting engaged? i’d honestly like to know his view on that…
Another point- Author Don Miller talks in his book Searching for God Knows What about how becoming a follower of Christ is a lot more like falling in love than it is checking off a list of requirements or something like that. Accountability cards, anyone? Hmmm…
December 1, 2010 10:15 AM
Curious George said…
“You can find the verse for that in II Opinions.” – Love that!
I’ve dated many people since the HA. None of these relationships have lasted long though, due in large part to the twisted mental state I acquired in Golden Valley. At first I tried to keep quiet about my past with the HA. As a result I’m “emotionally distant” and they leave. Then I tried to talk about the past and I become either a scientific subject to study or someone who’s too weird. I’m hoping I’m not the only one with these experiences.
This is a very nice post RA. It was really surprising to see how few scriptures were used.
“If God himself failed to give us a formula for getting to marriage, then I don’t think there is one,” and, “God has given us free will, a heart with specific desires and a mind able to think logically.” Deep thoughts. I appreciate them. Much love.
December 1, 2010 10:17 AM
Natalie said…
Renee and Layne, thank you so much for your opinions! I love them.
I would love to hear some more testimonies some time of what actually works.
on to subject – These teachings hit home because they are all from my year. This is so psychotic. I can’t believe he got away with this for real. None of us actually knew the bible to think he might actually be wrong. We all just went with this. How messed up do you have to be to actually say you are using the word of God when you aren’t?!?!
He was claiming this was God’s plan and it was biblical but it’s not. Yikes.
December 1, 2010 10:22 AM
Carol said…
Both the relationship talk and sex talk really did a number on me for a lot of years after TM. My husband can attest to this. Thankfully I’m a ‘recovered alumni’ in this area.
December 1, 2010 10:24 AM
Curious George said…
Good looking Layne. Following a formula totally takes the fun and magic out of it.
December 1, 2010 10:26 AM
Anonymous said…
Anonymous-
This site is for people recovering from the wounds they received while serving at Teen Mania. It is also for people who support those who are recovering. It’s obvious you don’t fall into those categories, so maybe just don’t leave comments? Just an opinion. I feel you are taking away from those who are on here for recovery discussions. That’s very sad you would feel you have to do that. If you are okay with Teen Mania and HA, just be okay with it and kindly butt out.
December 1, 2010 10:46 AM
heartsfire said…
LOL I didn’t follow a single “rule” with my Partner I met him through friends and within two months we were dating. We just knew we had found someone amazing when it came to each other! Communication is key and you won’t always have a perfect marriage unless you marry a robot or someone who thinks they have to be a robot. I have often thought that the Teen Mania dating rules set people up for failure. They are so one sided. They set women up for so many dark and twisted things. It makes me so sad to think of all the women and men who had strong relationships that were told break up because you did something not on the rules. I fear for the ones that follow those rules…. I have so much I could say about them but I just don’t want to play that much anger in my soul right now!
December 1, 2010 11:02 AM
Renae said…
Amen to that, Layne!
We put boundaries on our relationship that we felt were right for us, and we talked about EVERYTHING, including where we wanted the relationship to go (we talked about engagement and agreed it was what we wanted before he proposed with a ring), but there was plenty of romance and falling in love. Who wants to be in a relationship where you’re just fulfilling a set of rules? Wow… Lisa Marie, your comment just hit home for me after I wrote that!
Also, I know this is slightly off topic, but it bothers me when Ron talks about how mistakes in your courtship will mess up the rest of your marriage forever–as in sleeping together before getting married will result in the husband using porn and someone cheating because the trust has already been broken. I’m not saying there aren’t consequences for sin… but isn’t there also mercy? Two of my friends slept with their husbands before they got married. For one it was a conscious choice (they moved in together to escape terrible home lives) and for the other it was a one-time mistake. Both of them still have great, loving relationships with their husbands. Yes, they both talk about some consequences from that, but it hasn’t become the overarching theme of destruction in their marriage. My husband and I made mistakes before we got married too… I was a physical virgin our wedding night, but I sure as heck wasn’t an “emotional” one, whatever that means. It hasn’t ruined our marriage either. Ron’s view of relationships seems to be one without mercy.
December 1, 2010 11:08 AM
heartsfire said…
@Natalie what does work is largely subjective. My grandparents met when my Gramps splashed my grams when she was working in the garden and wearing a light colored dress. He thought it was funny…. (It probably kinda was to his 20 year old self) Later that evening he came by to apologize with a new dress in hand and an invitation to a fair that was in town. Grandma got convinced to go on the date by her mom and they dated for 6 months before getting married. They spent 66 years of marriage together and 67 years as a couple….. Grampa passed this fall or they would still be married. They are one of the strongest marriages I have ever known. I actually got into an argument with leadership about TM points about relationships because they were saying people like my grandparents didn’t happen and weren’t blessed by God.
December 1, 2010 11:10 AM
Renae said…
And my friends are both Christians who married Christians, I might add.
December 1, 2010 11:11 AM
Renae said…
@ Natalie-
Personally, what’s worked for me, and what I’ve seen work in most relationships I know of, is communication and honesty. If you tell the person who you truly are, they accept you for it, tell you who they truly are, and you accept them for it, then I think it will work, no matter the circumstances.
December 1, 2010 11:15 AM
heartsfire said…
What works: I agree with Renae on that but I would add this:
Do not go in expecting perfection! God didn’t create people perfect or even without fault in a union. It takes basic work. Like being grown up enough to to see that you might come at a problem from two different points of view and neither person’s approach is wrong. Understanding that their view and your’s won’t always mesh is a great start continuing the dialog after figuring that out is essential!
December 1, 2010 11:51 AM
Renae said…
That’s an excellent point to add, heartsfire! It’s important to have a basic idea of what you are and aren’t okay with in a relationship, and to have some reasonable expectation about the kind of person you want to be with, but like you said, no one is going to match it perfectly. That’s where communication comes in 🙂
December 1, 2010 12:16 PM
Anonymous said…
Man, I love being single! Bahahahaha!!
December 1, 2010 12:18 PM
reluctant-intern said…
I adore my husband and really do have a wonderful marriage. That being said, it certainly hasn’t been a walk in the park. We’ve had some big ups and downs but we always pull through on top – and we were friends for almost FOUR YEARS before we ever became anything official. So what does that mean in Ron’s strange little dating world? We followed his rule of being friends first, yet our lives are not all candy and rainbows.
And I’m also like Carol (same class! LOL) – some of the teachings I received really tweaked me out for a long time. I think I’m pretty much fully recovered, but it took a while.
December 1, 2010 12:50 PM
mouse said…
I think that it should be a crime for Luce to tell people that if they do it God’s (Ron’s) way that their marriage will be perfect. That is just more performance-based shit from the TM compound. Any blip in a marriage is the result of some sideways glance at a woman prior to marriage, please. I’d like to be a fly on the wall in the Luce house and see how they really act. Mrs Luce is surely repressed.
Mouse
December 1, 2010 1:57 PM
Julie said…
Mouse, I totally agree. If you make people think that following a formula leads to a perfect marriage, you are setting them up to fail at the first obstacle! When they come to that first serious argument, they will both walk away thinking, “I did everything right! I followed the formula! My spouse must have some secret sin that’s causing our marriage to be imperfect!” Instead of realizing no marriage is perfect and everyone has struggles. What matters is communicating and loving your spouse thru it, looking to the future instead of how well you followed the formula in the past.
December 1, 2010 2:31 PM
Julie said…
Also–struggles are not sin! Two people becoming one is a difficult process! Dying to yourself daily is HARD. Anyone who tells you otherwise is not preaching the love described in the Bible! You do not stop being a self centered person because you sign a paper and have a party. It’s going thru the hard parts, the fights, the challenges that help you to wear down your own selfish nature and give in to Love and love’s Creator.
December 1, 2010 2:36 PM
Happilyinlove said…
Such a good point. After my intern year I was afraid to be friends with men because I was so paranoid of screwing up!
What also got me to is how leaders were encouraged to “approve” whether or not someone should date or not (after someones first year when they were allowed.) So, you have 20 year olds who know nothing about life telling 18 year olds they feel like they should “fast talking” to the guy they have a crush on. Awesome lessons in relationships, when you are confused DONT communicate! And what a great power trip for the leader. And enough drama to keep their life interesting. 🙂
I am so thankful their is no formula for relationships! We are all just learning to love.
I am so thankful the Grace of God found me and He showed me,
There is no fear in LOVE, because perfect LOVE cast out all fear!
December 1, 2010 2:48 PM
Nicole said…
You know, it’s crazy how deeply ingrained this stuff can be inside of you. I never would have said a few years ago that I expected God to ‘bless me’ because of how I lived… But for marriage, I did expect just that (I just wasn’t aware that I did). So when my husband and I went through a really difficult time, I had a very hard time because I felt betrayed by God. I struggled with feeling like why, after doing everything right did my world seem to be falling apart?
I just think that Ron’s message is unrealistic. It sets marriages up for failure because it gives no room for mistakes or grace. And even doing everything with caution and care doesn’t guarantee that your marriage will be perfect.
I love my husband very much. I am thankful for the experiences we have gone through, even though it has turned my world upside-down. Marriage isn’t easy, but it can be very much worth it if both people are willing to work at it. But no process can guarantee that everything will be perfect.
December 1, 2010 8:22 PM
Curious George said…
@ anon 12:18
Single is the new black!
December 1, 2010 8:30 PM
Anonymous said…
This would be amusing if it weren’t so damaging to people.
Neither my husband or I knew Christ when we were married. We had a hard marriage at the beginning… but it was when we came to Christ and chose to follow Him that we were able to develop a GREAT marriage. We’ve been married for 2 1/2 years, and the only thing that was necessary for making our marriage great was choosing to follow Jesus.
It really has nothing to do with the process. JESUS is the only One who can make a marriage really work.
December 1, 2010 11:24 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
Anon – This is the winning comment right here:
It really has nothing to do with the process. JESUS is the only One who can make a marriage really work.
This needs to be shouted from the rooftops.
December 1, 2010 11:48 PM
layne said…
“Jesus is the only one who can make a marriage really work”
*cough* So secular marriages can never work because Jesus isn’t involved?
December 2, 2010 12:07 PM
Lauren said…
My favorite part of the Luce relationship talk I sat through was his use of the Old Testament’s David and Jonathan as our example of a pre-courtship relationship, even though TMM is so strongly against homosexuality.
December 2, 2010 12:34 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
@layne – I guess itt depends how you define “work.” The way I define it is love. Ultimately, God is love. True love always reflects God and is enabled by God.
@Lauren – I know, right? I though I misheard that it was so strange!
December 2, 2010 4:15 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
@Layne, re-reading it again, I see that this might sound to non-believers like I’m saying, “Your marriage isn’t as good as mine.” Thats not what I mean at all…just that I believe the One who created marriage knows best how to “do” it. And including Him in the process can only make it better (in the long run).
December 2, 2010 4:17 PM
Moriah said…
Thanks for clarifying RA. As a non-believer, I was slightly put off by the same comment (although empathetic to your stance as a believer). Certainly the Bible lays out some invaluable principles and guidelines regarding many types of relationships (marriages, friendships), and I still personally apply some of these to my life. However, I have seen strong vibrant marriages on both sides of the coin, and find attempts to qualify one over the other lacking in credibility or proof, even though I do respect your opinion.
Love,
Moriah
December 3, 2010 6:43 AM
Anonymous said…
I definitely didn’t mean that my marriage was better than anybody else’s. But my definition of marriage is husband, wife, and God. God needs to be put first in the marriage.
I know that there are many non-believers who have great marriages. But ultimately, unless God is first in EVERYTHING we do, we are not living according to His will.
I’m really sorry that I hurt your feelings or offended you, Layne and Moriah. I truly did not mean to come across as better than you or anything of that sort. I do NOT think that. I have so many of my own problems. My husband and I also still have problems, but the point is that we have brought God into our marriage and are seeking His will above all – and I believe that is really the only thing that matters.
December 3, 2010 8:39 PM
Drew Kimble said…
From what I’ve read on this great forum, coupled with what I observe and realized in my own life, I feel like Ron acts the part of a scared parent. A parent who uses fearful language to try to keep their kids from getting “hurt” or into “trouble”. Ron speaks unwisely, he uses absolutes when he speaks. These absolutes are wafer thin, also black and white in a mostly (as I see it) grey world. TM was also the place that spoke about flexibility. We needed to be flexible and move with god. I feel as if he/they are continually speaking contradictions. Fear and love I don’t believe can coexist in the same “place”. I know we all have fears but when we are moved by fear, and completely “married” to fear is when we are divorced from love. I believe Ron speaks about “love” but in reality its fear with a thin veil of “love” trying to cover its shamefulness.
I might have my story up here before to long, I am still making connections and having great realizations concerning the teachings of TM and just how much of an impact they’ve had on the past decade of my life. Im grateful for this forum, the cooperation and understanding that happens here.
Thanks!
December 6, 2010 11:59 PM
jon said…
So I ask the original post: “What is the correct way, since you obviously know what the wrong way is?”
December 7, 2010 9:38 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Jon – As I said, there is no formula. Following Jesus isn’t a set of rules, its a relationship.
December 7, 2010 10:39 AM
Anonymous said…
When I was an Intern and listening to RL’s speech their were things I took as good ideas and things I took as unnecessary. For me I believed it was important to be friends first. Me and my wife knew each other since we were 6. We didn’t have plans on marriage our whole lives it honestly just worked out that way. I didn’t pray for my wife until about a month before we started talking again as friends.
As our whole lives growing up we receive marriage counseling. We get to watch out parents. During this time we have the opportunity to say what we like and what we don’t like. Work on it from there.
Remember all that is in the Bible is true but not all truth is in the Bible. Their is pleny of advice in the Bible about marriage itself. Not so much about dating. However there are some simple Biblical truths that are relevant like sexual immorality, and even the Golden rule of love your neighbor as yourself. I think their might not be so much scripture basis because everyone and every culture is different that as long as you are following Christ in your relationship with your gf/bf as well as obeying your folks then go for it.
God has also given you people in your life for advice on what can work.
January 2, 2011 3:58 AM