What Mental Health Professionals Are Saying

” Many of the alumni of Teen Mania are left confused and disillusioned; questioning the very call of God that they thought led them to Teen Mania in the first place.”

THIS!

inb4 “NUH-UH”

No but seriously, it’s sobering to see an outsider’s take on the practices of Teen Mania. Much less an outsider who is an EXPERT in this sort of field.

For me, I feel like it’s easy to become desensitized to all that happened. It wasn’t until I told an outsider what I went through that I was able to realize that it was abuse.

I know of the Duncans by reputation, and make no mistake, for someone of their stature in the cult research community to go on public record with a statement this damning is huge. This is a game-changer.

This needs to be added to your “Is Teen Mania a Cult?” post. Answer: Yes, officially.

Love this. Yesssss.

Cesna…good to hear from you! 🙂

This is awesome, glad people are starting to take notice! 🙂

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

— Ephesians 6:12

And, interesting how closely they match the definition of the kingdom of darkness.

— governed and controlled by fear
— worth and value is performance based

http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9780631192626_chunk_g978063119262615_ss1-1

“Anyone who teaches falsehoods that interfere with another person’s salvation is a member of the kingdom of darkness.”

Awesome!

Doug and Wendy Duncan are great people and I’m so glad you got the opportunity to spend time with them.

“Abusers like Ron Luce and Dave Hasz are able to operate as they do only because of a lack of accountability.” THIS is so true. Many of the abusers who continue to operate cults have little to know accountability from anyone–Christian or Secular.

I would LOVE to hear DH/RL/HS responses to this? Perhaps it will be in the form of a website again? One can hope.

There is a feeling of relief that came over me when I read this. FINALLY, our feelings and suspicions have been validated by experts! While it was necessary (for my healing) for these feelings to be validated, it helps tremendously!

Eric- WOW. That’s really key to know that this isn’t just to make us all feel better about what we’re doing.
To hear them say that this is one of the worst cases they’ve seen is the most shocking. It just didn’t seem THAT bad.

Goodness, damning indeed. What does concern me is what their sample set looks like. They’re cult recovery experts so those who they see are usually the most damaged by the experience and probably dealt with the most cult like pieces. Ergo, it’s more likely to be completely judged to be a cult.

Now this in no way excuses any of that damage or any of those pieces but my concern is in how this allows those who came away with good experiences and who did not share the damage others had to be discounted as brainwashed or cult members. A feeling I’ve gotten from the recovering community before.

Despite some limited messed up situations I had a fantastic run at the HA. One of the most positive and formative times of my life. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Some of my best friends did not fare so well (some had extremely messed up things happen – almost always due to lack of accountability and recourse in staff situations). It has been eye opening to see how friends who sat in the same rooms and jobs as I did took away completely different things. Sometimes good, sometimes really really bad. Situations I thought were wholly positive I’d come to find out later hurt people deeply. And as for our success post internship, there seemed to be too much truth in the thought of “Alumni either become missionaries or alcoholics” (I’m not a missionary). Certainly lots needs to be addressed.

Anyway, I guess I’m simply saying as much as the effects of short sighted acts at TM sadden me, the vitriol and celebration at any stumble on their part on this side of things saddens me as well. And without knowing the full sample set and criteria of this couple’s assessment it’s hard to take a judgement like this as any more than an addiction counselor saying something is addicting. If you only see the addicted everything looks pretty addictive and if you only talk to the abused everything about the place looks pretty damn abusive (which again, I’m not in any way excusing abuse). A conclusion which doesn’t match up with many people’s reality of the experience (Just as the “above reproach” and marketing of HA doesn’t match up for so many either).

I feel that the truth lies somewhere between – as it often does – and I think in our inquiries here that is what we should be after. Not scoring one for the team.

Brandon said…”as for our success post internship, there seemed to be too much truth in the thought of “Alumni either become missionaries or alcoholics” (I’m not a missionary).”

Brandon can you expand on this? I’ve never heard it before. Personally I’m neither a missionary or alcoholic…and I can’t say that any of my alumni friends are either.

Is there an AA group of HA alumni I’m not aware of?

@phoenix – it’s a joke. Or hyperbole really. I think I first heard it in another way, may have been missionaries or atheists.

Anyway, the idea is people respond differently to the internship. The statement is referring how we respond afterwards and how polarized it can be. Not a literal statement – though I really do enjoy my beer. 🙂

Hi Brandon,

You bring up a good question. How do some people manage to have good experiences at the HA?

Thats a question with a complex answer and you are right that some people react differently to the same experience. Also, some people are given special treatment by TM leaders and may not realize it…There’s alot that could be said in answer to your question….but I’m not sure that makes it less of a “cult.” It would be interesting to have pro-TM people interviewed by the Duncans and see what they think about it after that….Regardless, I’m not sure that its fair to say that we are happy about “scoring one for the team.” Its about the truth coming out. I was astonished to hear Wendy say it was one of the worst cults she’d ever heard about. She is freakin’ expert so that really blew my mind.

But here’s my main quibble with your comment…you said that there were “limited messed up situations.” I contend that the “messed up situations” are systemic. That is, the HA is designed purposely by leadership in abusive ways and further that authoritarian leadership is promoted, fostered and encouraged even at the CA level, giving 18-19 year old kids carte blanche to do whatever they see fit. What many see as isolated incidents of a few CAs or staff members going too far is really the result of a culture of “I am the authority so I can make people do whatever I want” that is taught and encouraged by DH himself.

Ahh I get it…

I kind of agree with what RA said about the “messed up situations” they are systematic…I have my theory on why some people have an ‘all right’ experience at the HA and some are greatly damaged by it. But I think the bottom line is – now we all know we joined a cult.

@RA – I don’t know that it can be simply explained away as those who were favored and those who were not. I know many of the favored who were pretty damaged and many of the not who weren’t. I’m sure it could help with those situations of course.

Also I don’t disagree that there are systemic issues at hand, where I disagree is that there is intent in those systems. I think overall there was a lot of well meaning people but were given too much trust (by their leaders, by us, by their peers, by themselves even). Like I mentioned, a system with a lack of accountability and recourse (though I know of high ranking staff members who were doing their damnedest to inject it with some when I was there) – but I don’t think it was ever *designed* for any control, much less with any malicious intent. From everything I saw the worst I could put on upper leadership was negligence (which is certainly enough, but it lacked intent).

Finally the score one for the team feeling comes from reactions and the things I’ve seen on twitter. There’s a sense of “Ha! What now Luce?” or pithy zingers via twitter (and not just your account by any stretch). On the other hand I’ve been utterly lifted the times you’ve posted things about love, and forgiveness. Something i’ve seen lacking at times in other places on the subject. Thank you for that.

@phoenix – your final sentiment was exactly my fear in this. You may have your theories on my experiences but they are also mine. I will not discount your experiences and would ask that would do the same for me. 🙂

And with that friends, I’m back to quietly observing and hoping that the good of what TM could do will stay while the damage and flaws will go. I do feel, if nothing else, the discussion is quite important.

Also mexican food calls my name. 🙂

Above, I said “designed purposely by leadership in abusive ways” – I could have worded that better.

I don’t think intent is that important at this point. What I meant by “purposely designed” is that TM designs the rules, the teachings, etc to control the interns in every aspect of their life. They admit this and they seem to believe thats its a good thing – but we aren’t called as Christians to control other people and that is where an environment conducive to abuse comes in. They use known brainwashing techniques but claim its ok because its in the service of God, but it doesn’t work like that. Some techniques are NEVER ok – no matter what the motive is!

Sorry I wasn’t more clear in my previous statement.

I guess the question is at what point does intent even matter?

They’ve heard the very specific complaints and have done nothing meaningful to remedy what caused the issue(s). So, if you are trying to help someone and they tell you its hurting them – and you keep doing it anyway – at what point does your intent to help even matter anymore?

I could personally argue malicious intent given the fact that they have fabricated and disseminated major lies about me on numerous occasions…but this isn’t about me.

I think the point is that people CAN legitimately have good experiences at the HA, and they CAN legitimately walk away better.

They just HAD a legitimately good and life-changing experience at a cult.

So I guess the way I see it, is that Teen Mania can so easily be diagnosed as a cult doesn’t change, nullify, or magnify any personal experiences (whether good or bad).

It’s just, as Eric put it, a game changer.

I don’t even know if this makes sense lol

@Brandon Umm I think you misunderstood my last comment. I’m not discounting your experiences at the HA, or even comparing it to mine… perhaps I didn’t explane my self well.

Just because cult experts feel that TM is a cult doesn’t make your good experiences, less good, or my bad experiences worse. TM having a cult label to me is sort of like calling a book, a book. How we interpit/relate to the book is still up to the reader…

YES What NH said!

YES! This! “TM having a cult label to me is sort of like calling a book, a book.”

Wow, RA. This is just… great!

The thing about not trusting this because of their “sample” is, because this organization does these things to ANYBODY it is a cult. If NOBODY EVER complained about it… it is still a cult. Period. The fact that it is harmful and grossly abusive to ANYBODY is not a reason to keep it around so people can take a crap shoot and hope not to be one of the more effed up ones at the end of it all.

Thank you RA.

I went on a missions trip with teen mania in 2001 and even though I was 20 years old I was treated like I was five. They would not let me hold on to my own money because they said I would only spend it on food. They also told me that I was not eating enough, even though they knew that I could not eat some of the things they would serve due to dietary restrictions, but they never offered any alternatives. Therefore they saw fit to call my parents from China and tell them that I was being non compliant and that they needed to tell me to eat or they were going to send me home. My mother told them that I am an adult and can make my own decisions and that I have never eaten much and that I had restrictions that had to be followed or it would not be pretty. After I came back from the missions trip I was very sad and confused. I couldn’t understand why the leaders saw fit to pick on me and make me feel like I was so worthless. It took me a long time to get back into being able to worship God. Another thing is that whenever I heard from the TM people before the missions trip the first words out of their mouths were always “when are you sending more money?” They were so money obsessed it wasn’t even funny. It was also 100 degrees out and they had us outside from morning to night doing jumping jacks and other various exercises. I am from Michigan so I was not used to the extreme heat and there were a lot of times I thought I was going to pass out. I would not recommend TM to anybody. One of my friends attended The Honor Academy. She doesn’t ever really talk much about it, but I do know that she had a very hard time after leaving. I am glad it has finally been classified as the Cult I knew it was after my awful experience with them.

Wow, what a great read! I’m sort of torn, yes, I had some terrible experiences, but I also had some great ones. Many people in cults are happy, they don’t know the difference. I was one of those because I grew up in a very “Christian” or even “religious” home and the rules weren’t that different to me… extreme, but from the basic set my parents had applied, early curfews, Quiet Time, modesty, no boys, staying fit, eating right, church every time the doors were open, etc.. So for me, it wasn’t a big leap… it was the constant demeaning, the “works” and the money, the required Christianity. At home, I still got to choose to Love God, at HA it became a requirement to be perfect, I was even told by 3 2nd years for over an hour that I needed to be perfect, I told them I could never be, as that was for God and that my heavenly body would be. I was told that I needed to be exactly like Christ. And HE is perfect. Nothing was ever good enough for these people. I felt worthless, I think there are different ways to make people dependent and that was mine. I was seeking my “leaders” approval. I wanted so badly to be a good Christian, for God to love me. I even lost my faith while at the HA. If this is the real god, then I am not interested. Their god, is not the God I now know. I’m so fortunate to have been raised in a Godly home, once out of that situation, I realized it was the people, not God.

I agree with what NH said earlier,

“For me, I feel like it’s easy to become desensitized to all that happened. It wasn’t until I told an outsider what I went through that I was able to realize that it was abuse.”

like. this. post.

This post… floors me… One of the worst they’ve seen? I’m actually astonished… Here I was still thinking “TM is a cult, sure, but it’s not one of those truly horrible cults…”

Also, RA, your last comment, is exactly what I was thinking.

@Niki’s comment. I can’t even understand how people had good experiences at the H.A. I mean, I had some CRAZY experiences that were quite funny. But none of it was good. Even in the funniest times I had I hated it just as equally because I didn’t like anyone and I felt like I was a terrible person!

teenmania mom.

I am mother of a teen mania alum. My daughter has had issues of selfworth since leaving TM. She was raised in a Christian home where she was allowed to follow God’s call on her life whatever she saw it as. After TM she doubted herself and thought doing what she loves most was not “Christian enough”. It has caused her to pull away from the church. She is aware of this web page and is slowly making efforts at recovery.

We offer a support group for individuals who have been involved in cultic or spiritually abusive groups. We meet in the Dallas area once a month – free support group. See website: www.dallascult.com
Counseling with a therapist who understands abuse issues might help her recovery.

Wendy,

Thank you for all the support! I wish that I lived in Dallas so that I could attend your support group. Unfortunately, I live in Huntsville, AL. I haven’t been able to find anything similar here.

I don’t mean to in any way invalidate people’s bad experiences, or even “defend Teen Mania” or whatever. I’d be the first person to tell you that Teen Mania has serious issues.

However…I’d like to know some more background on how the decision was reached to label TM a “cult.” Who was interviewed by the Duncans? Was it mostly people with positive experiences? Negative experiences? Middle of the road experiences? From what range of years did these interviewees come from? What other research has been done aside from interviews? etc, etc.

Do you see what I’m saying? I don’t want to discredit folks who got the shit kicked out of them at TM. At all. But my question it, if this is going to be represented as an official, measured opinion by researchers, then at that point, I’d be looking to see what research and investigation was done to arrive at that conclusion…in the same way that if TM consulted some individuals and they did one set of interviews and came away with conclusions X Y and Z – you would rightly be skeptical of the thoroughness of their investigation.

Am I making sense? I really dont want to come across as an asshole making light of people’s trauma. If I am coming across like that – I deeply apologize. And RA, you can feel free to delete this whole comment if you think my tone is in any way hurtful. I’d just like to know what research was done by the Duncans to come to the conclusion that they did.

Mifune – Those are good questions and definitely worth asking.

I’m sure Wendy will jump in later to answer you…I can tell you that they’ve spoken in depth with at least 5-7 alumni ranging from my year (1997-1999) all the way to the current year. All of them would identify as having negative experiences at TM (though they didn’t all think that right after they left. Some of them still loved TM for months/years). Some would say they also had positive experiences. Three of the interns they spoke with were all within the last 2 years, including one who left just a few months ago.

They have also looked at most (if not all) the video footage that is on this site.

I know that during the cult recovery weekend, we had a session specifically on techniques of thought control (ie brainwashing). There are 8 techniques which may or may not all be present in a given cult. TM had EVERY SINGLE ONE in spades. We talked about example after example of teachings and rules that fit Lifton’s Criteria for Thought Reform. For me personally, that was a big eye opener, especially because Wendy said that not all cults use all 8 techniques, but TM does.

@ other TM mom…I’m sad to hear of your daughter’s self-worth issues, and glad she is aware of this community. I pray that she heals from her experiences at TM and finds her way back to the Lord. This community/site has been very helpful to our son, and us as parents who had once totally supported this ministry until our eyes were opened…

Our son has also received help and support that he needs and is returning to his first love–the Lord and music/youth ministry…it has been a slow painful process, but God is faithful. I will add your daughter to my prayers…

Wendy,

I agree with Shannon. I live on the East Coast and would love to have a support group to go to here. Do you have any suggestions? I haven’t found anything specifically for cult survivors. In fact, I’ve not found anyone who specializes in helping those who are healing from cults at all. Most of the help I’ve recieved has been through reading this site. Thanks RA!!

My husband and I got home from work late and have read through the many interesting comments. We would like to respond tomorrow when our brains our functioning better.
BTW, I received a call last night from one of the TM leadership who felt that our label of “cult” was not deserved. Mistakes have been made in the past, but TM has changed.
We stand by our assessment and will respond to your comments tomorrow.

Oh, the old “things have changed” line. In case you didn’t know, they hand that out to everyone.

Renae is right. Its a handy tool if you think about.

They ban interns from telling the truth about what is really going on at the HA. By the time, the intern feels brave enough to speak out, its months or years later and HA leadership has changed the specifics of their activities. So, they can rightly say “But we don’t use cockroaches anymore! That’s old news!” Meanwhile, they’ve never repented for it and the principle that led them to use the cockroaches is still firmly in place. And it will be a year or two until we really find out what is going on right now…and then they’ll change it and say, “But that’s old information, things have changed!”

And on and on we go….

Wendy, you say “I” and I assume that means you Wendy. Did they call for you specifically or do you think that they would have spoken to your husband? I suspect that DH or HS (whichever called) figured that they can talk a woman into changing their mind. Classic TM leadership feelings coming through in their actions. Woman is dumb so convince woman to change her mind.

pathetic…

What I’d like is a conference call between both of you and the TM leadership with open call-in.

mouse out

Hi Wendy,

I had quite the email conversation on how ‘things have changed’, feel free to look it over. http://www.facebook.com/#!/note.php?note_id=109692495783308

Mouse – I think an open conference call would be great! good idea.

#1 – Phoenix – I LOVE that you posted that on facebook. ha. I don’t have a facebook or I would read it. 🙂

#2- THANK YOU WENDY! I want to makes sure it is said clearly – any and all of your insight would be beyond appreciated! I think I can say that most of us are all looking forward to reading what you have to say.

I’m shocked that Teen Mania uses all 8 of the brainwashing techniques! That’s crazy!
Though it doesn’t surprise me. When I was there I felt manipulated on every side. There was no rest or peace. To find out it’s a cult is actually kind of nice.
Nothing they taught or said was true. For what it’s worth – that’s a relief.

Hmm interesting, phoenix.. I have several e-mails with Mr. Stoner regarding my event. They are different than yours, but still have the same undertone. He said several things that didn’t sit right, and I simply closed up the conversation and let him think what he wanted… Maybe I should have pushed, as you did.

I agree, an open call would be great!

Many comments to address, but let me begin with Brandon’s comment.

As RA said, our conclusion that Teen Mania is a cult is largely based on the time we spent doing a weekend workshop with a group of alumni of TM. Other alumni attend our support group and Doug has had occasion to counsel with another former member in his private practice. Admittedly, this would not qualify as a statistically significant sample if we were conducting formal academic research, but that is not what we are doing. We are simply calling for people who hold themselves forth as leaders in the Body of Christ to be accountable to the people they have hurt.

I think our Lord speaks directly to this issue in Matthew 18:12-14 (RSV)

[12] What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray?

[13] And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray.

[14] So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

The Good Shepherd is concerned for the lost sheep, even if it is only one out of a hundred. Yes, there are people who claim to have had good experiences at TM, but that does not counterbalance the injury done to others-not as long as the leadership at TM continues treating the honest discussion of their abuses as a PR problem.

If the TM leadership genuinely repents from their sinful actions and attitudes, and expresses their remorse publicly by truly making amends and implementing systemic reform so that the on-going damage stops, then I will be the first to commend them. However, I have seen nothing so far that indicates that the TM leadership is prepared to do that. I pray that I am wrong.

The TM leader who called the other night invited us out to Teen Mania to visit with some of the current participants. We are planning to do this soon.

One of the keys to our recovery from a pseudo-Christian, Bible-based cult was to educate ourselves about cults. We read all the cult literature that we could. We also became involved in the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) and attended the annual conferences. There we met the most incredible people – former cult members, as well as mental health professionals and researchers who specialize in cults. It was so healing and validating to meet others who had been through a similar experience!

Carol Giambalvo is the Director of Recovery with ICSA. Check out her list of support groups around the nation. Maybe some of you are close to one of these resources. ICSA also hosts weekend workshops/retreats that some of you might be interested in.

If there is interest in Doug and I doing another workshop in the Dallas area, let RA know.

Here is the link for support groups: http://www.refocus.org/local-support-groups.html

Mouse, Doug answered the telephone, but TM leader asked specifically for me. Afterwards, Doug had the same comment that you did about Mr. TM thinking that a woman would be easier to persuade. Interesting.

Clarification:
Earlier response should have been addressed to Mifune, as well as Brandon.

My mistake.

I am very interested in reading anyone’s correspondence with TM. I’ll check out yours, Phoenix.

Unspecified changes have been made, according to a leader who’s known for bullying and evading direct questions? Well why didn’t you say so? That certainly proves that none of the cultic stuff over the past 15 years up to 2011 ever happened at all. Nothing to see here, folks; TM must be a perfectly healthy and orthodox ministry after all.

^^ Sarcasm

This is beautiful. Seriously, it’s moving.

Thank you for your involvement, Duncans.

Good point Shiloh! If your not on Facebook and curious I’ve loaded it into google docs.

http://owl.li/5a7qs

Enjoy.

I had the EXACT same conversation(s) with Heath.

He wouldn’t post a comment I wrote on his HA Director’s Blog, b/c I used gracemakesfree and not my “real” name.

He emailed me and said he would only answer my questions if I told him my real name.

The question I asked? What is going on with the ESOAL Report? And, if the “independent panel” is still assembled, why did they chose people who had blatant ties to the ministry? If they have nothing to hide, whoever they chose should be able to see the benefits of ESOAL.

After I told him I wouldn’t give him my name, he asked again for my name … this is my response:

Again, I thought that I was asking a question based on items which both you and Mr. David Hasz said were going to be transparent and public about. If you are going to be secretive about items that you said you would be open about, that is definitely your prerogative.

He told me they aren’t secretive and that I could trust him with my identity … I wrote the following:

Again, I thought that I was asking a question based on items which both you and Mr. David Hasz said were going to be transparent and public about. If you are going to be secretive about items that you said you would be open about, that is definitely your prerogative.

Then he told me I can call him.

I discontinued emailing him. I mean, didn’t they say that everything would be made public??? Why does he need to know who I am in order to answer a question about something he said would be made public?

They are completely shady. I used to give them the benefit of the doubt, or make excuses that they’ve been in the compound too long … but not anymore. 🙁

Ha! I made a mistake in my comment – after Heath told me they weren’t being secretive and that I could trust him with my name, I wrote the following:

We are at an impasse. You understand I want to remain anonymous, and I understand that you don’t want to answer my questions.

I guess, in a way, I do have my answer. I can only assume that the independent report is not happening and will not be made available. I thought you and Dave were really going to silence the naysayers. Now I think I may find myself amongst them. The respect I once held for you and Dave is waning and my heart hurts as a result.

peace be with you.

grace.makes.free

Hi Wendy,

Thanks for the response. And I do hope you guys go to the TM
Campus and talk to folks there. TM desperately needs more outside accountability, and I hope that your visit can help guide some folks there in their decision making, and maybe help them to see things in a different way than they have before.

My concern with some of this stuff is that, as dialogue intesifies, people who feel they are being “attacked” tend to shut down and not listen to the very real concerns being brought to them. There are folks at TM who would love to see more positive change happen, and my fear is that if the outside parties bringing up areas where TM needs to change are perceived as “attackers” then it makes it harder for changes to happen. It’s not good that that mindset kicks in and I’m not defending it, but it is a reality that has to be dealt with.

Maybe I’m just sentimental, but I’d still like to see TM make changes and evolve into something better, and my fear is that if folks there don’t trust you or think you are out to get them, your comments and critiques could fall on deaf ears…which would be a tragedy (again, I’m not saying this to defend that response, but maybe just to help you understand the culture there a little better). Hope your further communication with TM helps people see things in a different light and pushes things in the direction of redemption, repentance, and renewal…something I think we all hope and pray for.

Wendy! PLEASE go to Teen Mania! That would be incredible! I was there like… Well – 4 months ago? Maybe 3?
Anyways – The place is totally whack and it’s obvious. For anyways fearing it wont be whack enough – it definitely is.
I went to CCM to get a copy of the esoal video, only to be near threatened by the receptionist. She got in my face… FOR REAL. It would have been scary except I felt so bad for her that she felt like she needed to be mean (and go against her moral code probably, cause wasn’t really the type to mean it didn’t look like.) just to defend a ministry that was probably totally abusing her.

SPEAKING OF ESOAL! It’s coming up soon! Has there been a panel at all put together? I mean, it’s coming up again… I’m sure the media could really use this. 🙂
They like us by the way. It’s pretty easy to get an interview with the local news stations as well as the police department if anyone wants to just give them a call or an email.

Duncans,

Thank you so much for your responses and your care for our community. It is a relief to hear that we are not the crazy ones…that our abuses are real, and to have some professional validation to back that up. While I don’t doubt that there could be more extensive research to back up the “cult” label, I do believe that the more alumni that communicate with you, the more it will be affirmed. I have many many friends from over the years who are not a part of this particular community but experienced abuse with TM. I feel tremendous gratitude for you both.

Can’t wait to hear about your campus visit. May you be a ray of gracious light to all you encounter.

From a TM mom re: her daughter: “She doubted herself and thought doing what she loves most was not “Christian enough”.” My heart grieves to hear this. For her. For me. For everyone who wastes their precious gifts & interests out of thinking it’s not “spiritually enough.”

See RA’s “What are you Grieving?” post.

Shannon Kish, I live in Decatur, we should talk. Maybe form our own local support group?

BtrflySam,

Definitely. You can email me at shannonkish at gmail dot come

Anyone recovering alumni in the Chicago area?

Michelle go to the forums while not directly in Chicagoland area myself There are lots of people within a 5 hour drive of you seriously check out the forums on the side column we don’t bite 🙂

Bizarre practices, such as putting roaches on someone’s head, pressuring a young person to crawl through a sewer pipe, or rolling down a hill with patches of vomit are strangely linked with genuine Christian commitment and true discipleship. best sellers page

I’m currently at the honor academy and I feel this way every day