As we’ve discussed before, in the world of Teen Mania, women are often blamed for men’s lust problems. Unfortunately, this doesn’t stop in the world of dating. Ron also brings this issue into marriage. In a 2001 teaching on “God’s Idea of Intimacy in Marriage”, he said:
And so what I’m saying is this – this is both for ladies and for guys: You need to be the one that keeps turning your spouses head. Not because you are trying to compete with the world but because why? Because you respect yourself. You take care of yourself, you know, whether that is your weight, whether that is your hair, whether that’s your clothes. Don’t be a slob and say, “Well you gotta stay married to me! What’s wrong? How come you are looking at all those porn magazines? How come?”
Well…And that doesn’t justify somebody looking at porn, but I’m just saying that you ought to respect yourself enough and your spouse and say, you know what? I’m gonna take care of myself because I want to look good for them.
And from this year’s PowerPoint presentation:
WOW.
First, let’s look at his nonsensical question and answer.
Q – Why should you want to be the one to turn your spouses head?
A – Because you respect yourself.
That doesn’t even make sense to me but maybe I’m dense. Respecting myself and trying to be pleasing to someone else seem to be different ideas. If I respect myself, I don’t have to please others with my outward appearance. Additionally, there is no way I can control what turns my spouse’s head. To suggest that a man’s inability to be faithful to his woman is based on the women’s outer beauty is yet another symptom of the “blame the victim” culture of Teen Mania.
Second, even though he tried to take it back, he acted like a woman can’t be mad at her husband for using porn if she is not keeping herself beautiful.
WHAT?!
I turn my spouse’s head first thing in the morning, wearing my pajamas with my hair all crazy and no makeup on. It doesn’t matter what I’m wearing or how much I weigh – my husband believes that I am the most beautiful woman in the world. Does he loves it when I dress up as well? Sure, but to suggest that if a woman fails to live up to a particular standard of beauty then she shouldn’t be surprised if her husband is disappointed – this is just ridiculous, unhealthy, and downright demeaning to women. And a man who thinks that way is NOT WORTH MARRYING.
The reality is that I respect myself MORE because of my husband’s unconditional love and acceptance of me. Not because I have to lose weight or wear makeup in order to “turn his head.”
Newsflash: For all of his talk about not being like the world and doing marriage and sex God’s way – these warped ideas of conditional love and acceptance based on outer beauty sure seem to be very “worldly” ideas!
26 comments:
Ericsays:May 12, 2011 at 9:54 AMReply
Argumentum ad hominem is always dangerous and usually wrong, but I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if it came out one day that Mr. Luce had a problem with p0rn (apparently blogpost has a filter?). This line of “reasoning” is very typical of the thinking of an enabler looking for excuses.
Be that as it may, once again this is not only unbiblical but completely contrary to Scripture. Compare: “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church.” “We love Him because He first loved us.” Therefore, husbands, take the initiative in loving your wives, and don’t blame them if you decide not to.
hecametolifttheshamesays:May 12, 2011 at 11:56 AMReply
I just had a baby a month ago. I’m pretty sure I look the worst I ever have in my life-gravity is taking it’s toll, I’m 15 lbs heavier than pre-pregnancy still, stretch marks galore, etc…..but my husband thinks I’m hot. I’m not sure how or why, but he tells me every day I’m beautiful and that I’m working harder than any woman he knows taking care of our baby. He honors me when I don’t think I deserve to be honored, desired, wanted. I’m watching what I eat and exercising now to lose the baby weight and more, but not because he requires it in order to keep his attention. Because I want to be healthy. My husband adores me when I’m in need of a shower, the loss of 30 lbs, and a little makeup. Just because he loves me. Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church…..
littlegraygirlsays:May 14, 2011 at 9:05 AMReply
I was there for this teaching.
After I got married, I tried EVERYTHING to stop my husband from looking at porn–to want ME instead. I even dyed my hair brown because I knew he liked brunettes (I’m a blond). I did everything I could to have the perfect body; by the time I sought help, I weighted 98 lbs. Actually, I developed my eating disorder shortly after we started dating, because I liked him so much that I could see myself being with him; I knew from all the wonderful things I was taught at TM that I had to be super hot in order to keep him, especially once we started becoming physical (presumably after we got married, but I wasn’t too stupid to think that we couldn’t mess up).
I am an attractive girl, and I did everything in my power to “turn his head”, and when his head stopped turning very shortly after we got married, and nothing I tried changed that, I fell into despair and just quit eating altogether. (Terrible way to deal with your pain, btw; I wouldn’t recommend it.)
It took me a long time to realize that HIS issues have nothing to do with me, and how “sexy” I am. Sometimes I still have to remind myself of that, when the old pain starts creeping up. For the record, we are both doing much better; both of us are “sober” (in regard to our respective addictions) and working hard on our relationship. We’re in a much healthier place but it took a lot of work and required a lot of healing. I’m still in the process of that, actually.
I still think I’m not “hot” enough. I never realized how much I internalized these awful things I heard at the HA. Thanks, Ron. Thanks, Dave. Thanks, Heath.
Another thing that bothers me; why is this message always taught to women, but not to men? The effort is already extremely lopsided:
-A woman waxes and plucks and shaves and gets her hair colored and uses all kinds of serums and creams for various parts of her body, styles her hair and applies make-up every day, paints her toenails, etc. We go to the gym, we do pilates, zumba, whatever. We buy Spanx and push-up bras. We get spray-tanned.
-A guy runs water over his body in the shower for a minute and then puts deodorant on. Every couple of weeks, he shaves (If he works in an office, he’ll shave more often, but it isn’t for you). If you’re lucky, he’s the type who works out. That’s all.
Obviously, I’m generalizing; for instance, I don’t spray-tan or wear Spanx, and some men spend more time in the bathroom then their wives…I’m just trying to make a point about how lopsided these things generally are. Particularly how sexist TM’s teachings are.
The HA always undercuts women when it comes to sex. Men leave there having no idea that women might have their own needs/desires aside from that of simply being a receptacle for their husband’s junk.
I’m not saying it isn’t a good idea to take care of oneself. I think it’s honoring to your spouse when you have enough self-respect to do the best with what you have (within reason), but it should go both ways.
AND, most importantly, a woman is NEVER responsible for her husbands thoughts or actions. Those are in the realm of HIS control only. A man should never blame is wife for his own issues, even IF she starts living in baggy sweatpants and gains 300 lbs.
Ericsays:May 14, 2011 at 9:06 AMReply
Argumentum ad hominem is always dangerous and usually wrong, but I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if it came out one day that Mr. Luce had a problem with p0rn (apparently blogpost has a filter?). This line of “reasoning” is very typical of the thinking of an enabler looking for excuses.
Be that as it may, once again this is not only unbiblical but completely contrary to Scripture. Compare: “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church.” “We love Him because He first loved us.” Therefore, husbands, take the initiative in loving your wives, and don’t blame them if you decide not to.
littlegraygirlsays:May 14, 2011 at 9:07 AMReply
“Therefore, husbands, take the initiative in loving your wives, and don’t blame them if you decide not to.”
Thanks for this, Eric.
S.Z.B.says:May 14, 2011 at 9:08 AMReply
This is so disturbing to me. I mentioned in a comment on another post that I keep seeing very bad body image discussion happening at the HA and in TMM in general and this is just another nail in the coffin. If you don’t stay attractive, you can’t blame your spouse for not remaining committed?! WHAT? Additionally, this is CLEARLY directed towards women which makes me extra annoyed, though no man should be subjected to this vile teaching either. Why is it so hard for him to just say, “Hey, let’s be healthy and happy” and leave it at that? You don’t need to be skinny or super muscular or a great athlete to lead a healthy happy life. MAKES ME SICK.
Newsflash to Ron- everyone will age. You will not stay young and attractive no matter what you do. And different people find different things attractive.
“You take care of yourself, you know, whether that is your weight, whether that is your hair, whether that’s your clothes. Don’t be a slob and say, “Well you gotta stay married to me! What’s wrong? How come you are looking at all those porn magazines? How come?””
Whether that is your hair?? What?? Your clothes? What on earth is he talking about?! I found myself sitting here thinking, “what IS my hair? I have no idea”
@littlegraygirl your story breaks my heart but I am so happy to hear you are in recovery. It’s inspiring to hear how hard you and your husband are working to build your marriage up, I think that’s amazing. You’re obviously a strong, awesome woman.
littlegraygirlsays:May 14, 2011 at 9:08 AMReply
Oh, and just to clarify:
I am not blaming TM or my husband for my ED. I alone am responsible for my actions. There were many factors involved, and the teaching I internalized at HA was a MAJOR one. My relationship with my now-husband was simply the catalyst; if it hadn’t been that, it would’ve probably been something else.
Also, I regret my sweeping generalizations about the grooming habits of men and women, because I feel they detract from the point. My reasoning was that society has set us up so that a lot of women are OBSESSED with their appearance, because we’ve internalized this idea that our value lies in how we look, how beautiful or attractive we are. Men….not so much. And TM is not only buying in to that mindset but is perpetuating it. It’s ugly.
I realize that society short-changes men in a lot of ways, too. But having only ever been a female, I can only speak from this side of it. 🙂
Sorry to monopolize the comment section! *ducks head and runs off*
jeffsays:May 14, 2011 at 9:09 AMReply
Geez, even after the terribly twisted b.s. my own little cult caused women to believe I still have to feel some compassion for what HA caused you gals to be put through.
Sexy is a sin, unless you are seducing your husband, but don’t do it in way that causes you to lose self-respect, unless you need to blame yourself for the fact he is a horn dog who can’t keep his eyes off of other women.
OMG, it’s no frikin wonder many of you need to recover from Luce’s garbage worthy teachings and HA culture!
littlegraygirlsays:May 14, 2011 at 9:09 AMReply
Thanks, SZB! And I agree with your statements whole-heartedly.
*NOW ducks head and runs off*
Juliesays:May 14, 2011 at 9:10 AMReply
This again goes to how TM sends terrible body image messages to women! If your husband cheats on you or looks at porn it means you’re not attractive. What a terrible idea to put in a woman’s head! If your husband cheats, it’s because he is a sinner who gave in to sin. Now a woman can make it easier for her husband to rationalize to himself WHY he feels it’s okay to cheat (she’s too distant, too fat, etc) but none of that changes the fact he has free will and CHOSE to sin. Plenty of people do not cheat on their spouse or become addicted to porn based on their spouse’s changing appearance. It is natural for a woman to gain weight and become less physically beautiful as she ages. It’s natural for a woman to have less time for self beauty routines as she juggles housework, job, and kids. But by that stage in your relationship, you should not be focused on loving this person for her exterior attributes! She has cared for you when you were sick, born your children, feed your family when they visit, worked in the church. You should be attracted to who she IS, not how she looks–or you haves very superficial relationship!
Anonymoussays:May 14, 2011 at 9:10 AMReply
I just must add this little tidbit: Thank God that he loves us and is faithful no matter how ugly we may be at times!
laynesays:May 14, 2011 at 9:11 AMReply
“Sexy is a sin, unless you are seducing your husband, but don’t do it in way that causes you to lose self-respect, unless you need to blame yourself for the fact he is a horn dog who can’t keep his eyes off of other women. “
Hah! Nice summation, Jeff.
My question is, if Ron Luce truly believes his own teachings than what was with the mullet hairdo? Katie must interesting tastes, I guess.
hecametolifttheshamesays:May 14, 2011 at 9:11 AMReply
I just had a baby a month ago. I’m pretty sure I look the worst I ever have in my life-gravity is taking it’s toll, I’m 15 lbs heavier than pre-pregnancy still, stretch marks galore, etc…..but my husband thinks I’m hot. I’m not sure how or why, but he tells me every day I’m beautiful and that I’m working harder than any woman he knows taking care of our baby. He honors me when I don’t think I deserve to be honored, desired, wanted. I’m watching what I eat and exercising now to lose the baby weight and more, but not because he requires it in order to keep his attention. Because I want to be healthy. My husband adores me when I’m in need of a shower, the loss of 30 lbs, and a little makeup. Just because he loves me. Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church…..
Recovering Alumnisays:May 14, 2011 at 9:11 AMReply
littlegraygirl – thanks for sharing your story. 🙂
julie – great points!
layne – mullet. lol
hecametolifetheshame – congrats on your new baby. your husband sounds like a winner 🙂
Renaesays:May 14, 2011 at 9:12 AMReply
@hecametolifttheshame–
I’m currently 9 months pregnant and feel like a whale… and my husband is the same as yours. Thank God for **TRULY** Godly men!
phoenixsays:May 14, 2011 at 9:12 AMReply
mullet!! lol yes. yes anyone else noticed that ron and dave have packed on the lbs. in the last few years? I wonder which way their wives heads are turning??
Recovering Alumnisays:May 14, 2011 at 9:13 AMReply
Ok, blogger ate all your comments so I had to repost manually. Hence, the new time stamps.
MIPsays:May 14, 2011 at 12:24 PMReply
i find it interesting that in the Bible men are told to love their wives, yet wives are never told to love their husbands….
for those of us who aren’t super thin, and believe that we are terribly unattractive this puts you down even further on the self-esteem totem pole. I mean, if you have to be like that to keep your husband how in the hell do you have to look to “land” your “trophy”
Anonymoussays:May 14, 2011 at 2:49 PMReply
Can I just say, Jennifer Aniston and Sandra Bullock. They dont claim to be “Christian” but I believe are beautiful on the outside and, ehem, look what happened there….
CarrieSaumsays:May 14, 2011 at 7:53 PMReply
TM teaches women that it is YOUR JOB to please your husband. If they aren’t pleased then you must do something to rectify it. We are taught to be beautiful, interesting, impeccably groomed, have tight bodies, be nurturing, helpful, hard-working, super-spiritual, submissive, happy, smiley, un-emotional, low-maintenance, gentle, witty, feminine, independent, obedient, and love sports. Oh, and you have to be chaste and non-sexual before you get married, but once you are married, you’d better be a sex goddess and fulfill your husband’s every sexual desire with no thought of your own desire or fulfillment. And if he’s too tired, you have to understand and be supportive.
The reality is, it is not our job to please our spouse. We are all responsible for our own happiness and pleasure. Our only job inside of a marriage is to be honest. Honest with our feelings, our experiences, our weaknesses, and our fears. And those things are rarely pleasing to hear.
All of this makes me thankful that my husband loves me without make-up, with wild hair, wants to know what I think and feel, shares with me when he is struggling, and believes that my life and experiences are every bit as valuable as his. But more than any of those, I’m thankful for our commitment to one another, regardless of how well we are performing or behaving or looking at any given moment. That is marriage. That is Love. That is Jesus. F*** the rest of that TM shit.
Mifunesays:May 14, 2011 at 10:20 PMReply
All that said, it’s very worthwhile to remember that, for both husbands and wives, the biological element of attraction is not really controllable. So, really, the teaching should be: husbands – if you want more sex, do more things in your life to be attractive to your wife. It’s not a 100% foolproof formula, but it IS simple biology. The more attractive you are to her, the more her brain starts kicking up the dopamine levels, the more likely you are to get lucky. Everyone wins.
Most of us dudes understand this during the dating phase, but seem to forget about it once a lasting commitment is in place.
It’s true for women too, but it gets overplayed (like in some of the talks at TM). I also don’t think it gets talked about enough that men have lots of different things that they find attractive in a woman, from a physical standpoint. There is no one model of hotness. It doesn’t exist. For every guy that is into women with a lot of curves, there are scores of guys out there that lose all capacity for rational thought in the presence of a petite gal. Skinny, voluptuous, short, tall, smart, dumb, shy, extroverted…WE LOVE ALL WOMEN.
Women are WAY harder on themselves when it comes to appearance than most men are. Those “imperfections” you hate about yourself? We probably don’t even notice them. Some of us are probably even turned on by them.
Renaesays:May 14, 2011 at 10:27 PMReply
That goes for guys too. My husband has things about his appearance that he dislikes or considers unattractive, and they’re actually some of my favorite parts about how he looks. It’s really true that there’s someone for everyone.
LizBRsays:May 15, 2011 at 7:59 AMReply
A friend recently said something in a comment on Facebook that I think is worth sharing here.
He said, “Men in the evangelical world also need to figure out the difference between having feelings of sexual attraction toward someone and sinful lust. If we weren’t so confused on this issue, maybe we wouldn’t be so inclined to blame women for how they dress.”
Recovering Alumnisays:May 15, 2011 at 11:27 PMReply
Great point, LizBR!
Jaysays:May 18, 2011 at 4:57 AMReply
Before a man or a woman invite another into their life, they first need to love themselves. When you love yourself you take care of yourself- not to impress anyone, not to keep someone around, but because you love yourself… You do it for yourself. When you learn to love and respect your own body, you will not only keep yourself looking good, but you will only allow like-minded people into your life. People who love and respect themselves, and will love you like they love themselves. Anyone who strives to look good in order to “keep turning their spouses head” has it all backwards. A big red flag waving to warn you of a unfulfilled relationship is a man who you have to strive to keep him interested in you. It pisses me off that there is a sermon instructed women to do this. While I believe we should all tend to our bodies and stay active and healthy, I feel that this teaching is from the flesh of a man who believes it is his wives god-given duty to end up a 60 year old in a 20 year olds body. Get real. Men, love your wives. Women, respect yourselves, if your man is looking at porn it is nothing you have done, always remember that. I wonder how many women this sermon has left crying alone at her bedside wondering what she did wrong whilst her man is downstairs pleasuring himself in front of the computer screen.
Mirandasays:May 2, 2012 at 10:01 PMReply
This idea is probably the thing I hated most about TM. Of course, when I was at TM I was a different person- I was heavier, less confident and felt ugly. Hearing this news made me feel even more awful and started me on a journey towards hating men for a while.
Thankfully, I’m in a much better place now. 🙂 I grew up! I became a real woman, and married a truly WONDERFUL guy who loves me for exactly who I am. I love thinking back to the TM days about being taught to do your hair and makeup- HA!! I never do my hair and rarely put on make-up. In fact, my husband complains when I wear make-up too much. He seriously does like the natural me, which is how it should be. I think his truly unconditional love for me is what has made me realize that I’m beautiful always- when I put effort into my looks and when I don’t give a damn. 🙂