A number of TM supporters have made it clear how disgusted they were with my tone so I addressed their criticisms yesterday. Today, I’d like to discuss Dave Hasz’ tone.
As a man of God that supposedly loves teenagers and wants to bring them closer to Christ, what do you think a proper response would be when you are told that you have inadvertently devastated people’s lives to the point that they have spent years in confusion and depression, they have walked away from the Lord, they have needed a serious amount of counseling and in some cases have even been suicidal?
Would a proper response be a coolly delivered self-justification? Or would it be an, “OH MY GOD, I AM SO SORRY. WHAT HAVE I DONE! PLEASE FORGIVE ME.”
How does the heart of a Godly shepherd react to a hurting member of the flock? The Good Shepherd left the 99 to find the 1. He didn’t say, “the dissatisfaction is dramatically counterbalanced by the multiplied thousands of young, gifted leaders-to-be who have participated in this meritorious program.”
How does a tender Father comfort a hurt child?
In short, I am appalled with Dave’s tone. It was totally void of the proper emotion, it was smug, it was dismissive, it was condescending, it was NOT humble (save a few short moments). This call wasn’t about reaching out, it was about self-justification. It was a PR move, plain and simple.
A man with God’s heart would be distraught and destroyed after finding out how he has hurt people. He would waste no time repenting, seeking reconciliation and making restitution. Unfortunately, that is not the attitude that Dave has taken.
And that reveals more about his character than anything I could ever say.
A number of TM supporters have made it clear how disgusted they were with my tone so I addressed their criticisms yesterday. Today, I’d like to discuss Dave Hasz’ tone.
As a man of God that supposedly loves teenagers and wants to bring them closer to Christ, what do you think a proper response would be when you are told that you have inadvertently devastated people’s lives to the point that they have spent years in confusion and depression, they have walked away from the Lord, they have needed a serious amount of counseling and in some cases have even been suicidal?
Would a proper response be a coolly delivered self-justification? Or would it be an, “OH MY GOD, I AM SO SORRY. WHAT HAVE I DONE! PLEASE FORGIVE ME.”
How does the heart of a Godly shepherd react to a hurting member of the flock? The Good Shepherd left the 99 to find the 1. He didn’t say, “the dissatisfaction is dramatically counterbalanced by the multiplied thousands of young, gifted leaders-to-be who have participated in this meritorious program.”
How does a tender Father comfort a hurt child?
In short, I am appalled with Dave’s tone. It was totally void of the proper emotion, it was smug, it was dismissive, it was condescending, it was NOT humble (save a few short moments). This call wasn’t about reaching out, it was about self-justification. It was a PR move, plain and simple.
A man with God’s heart would be distraught and destroyed after finding out how he has hurt people. He would waste no time repenting, seeking reconciliation and making restitution. Unfortunately, that is not the attitude that Dave has taken.
And that reveals more about his character than anything I could ever say.
I agree entirely with this post RA. I would even further to say that it is not normal for ANY normal human to respond in the manner he did. Normal humans experience guilt, shame, and sorrow for how their actions affect others.
I would like to comment on something REAL quick.
BEFORE everyone gets in a huff about how this blog is all about complaining and bashing.
This particular post is the ONLY post on here I’ve seen that is a direct statement about Dave Hasz himself. And it is true. Mr. Hasz’s tone was VERY dismissive.
It’s like, they set up this conference call, told all the interns that Mr. Hasz just wanted to answer their questions, but what it really was is him just wanting to brush it all under the rug.
If you are so blind by T.M.M. you can not see where Mr. Hasz all out lied on the call at times… I am very sorry.
I would also like to state. I really wish this wouldn’t get into a big ‘lets all bash Dave’ post.
That’s not pretty at all.
Dave is a man of God. It’s evident from his fruit. It really is. Some have benefited greatly from his leadership. Some have been very hurt.
Please, it does NO GOOD to attack character.
Let’s keep this a- “What they ‘did’ conversation.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc
Wow, looks like I missed a lot of drama while I was away. Maybe I should go back.
But not without quoting Jeremiah yet again:
“They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
‘Peace, peace,’ they say,
when there is no peace.
Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct?
No, they have no shame at all;
they do not even know how to blush.
So they will fall among the fallen;
they will be brought down when I punish them,
says the LORD.”
Your tone was pointed out by your supporters too (me included).
I’m not picking sides here but, Dave didn’t even have to do the conference call where you did get your opportunity to ask some questions to him in front of an audience.
Tone or no tone…what I heard was dave taking responsibility for alot of what was going on at TMM. and that’s a start.
if doesn’t know whats going on their then I say let him know! how doesn’t he know? you mission should be to submit to him every story, allegation, anything that goes on there that shouldn’t.
(I say this cuz I don’t know if you already to this or not)
but my point is valid, OPEN HIS EYES! GIVE HIM NO EXCUSES for his actions and the actions of those he puts in leadership!
The Devil’s Advocate on my shoulder just pointed out another “question you should be asking.”
According to the TM indoctrinated party line…
1. Honor Academy is the most wonderful ministry on earth.
2. Everyone who disagrees with #1 is “bitter” and “resentful.”
3. People get bitter when they don’t “forgive and move on” from wounds, hurts, sins, and offenses from the past.
But wait…
If it’s the most wonderful ministry on earth, how come it wounds, hurts, sins against, and offends so many people?
A healthy ministry does not produce legions of “bitter” people, because they don’t have those kinds of hurts to refuse to forgive.
Ergo, the TM party line itself proves that Teen Mania is spiritually abusive.
If you want people to stop being “bitter” about you, stop hurting them.
*mind blown*
I actually didn’t have a problem with his tone. I’m not a publically-emotional creature (unless I can help it) and I’ll vouch for others who are the same. We don’t like to display our emotions for the eyes and ears of others, but that desn’t mean that we’re heartless or untouched. Just different.
“Imagine you worked in the emergency room of a hospital and one evening a two-year-old child was brought to you who had spilled boiling water down the front of his body. The child is screaming and wailing at the top of his lungs. As you delicately cut away his clothing, you see that his skin is literally falling off his body. My question to you is this: What are the chances that you will lose your patience with this child for screaming? Would you secretly wonder why his mother wasn’t quieting him down? Would you even attempt to quiet this child down? What are the chances you would even start to get irritated? You wouldn’t, would you? Why, because you have understanding. You can see with your eyes the exact reason why this child is screaming so much. You would scream as well if it happened to you. So you don’t lose your patience. You don’t even start to lose your patience because you understand.”
–The God’s Honest Truth by Darin Hufford
I really don’t have much else to contribute here. Hufford said it very well. And regardless of who spilled the boiling water on the baby, the baby is still burned. I would love to send a copy of this book to DH and Co.
Carrie, that is a wonderful story.
To add to it– I wouldn’t be angry with the child, but I would be very angry at whoever spilled the water or wasn’t paying attention to the child.
…How does the heart of a Godly shepherd react to a hurting member of the flock? The Good Shepherd left the 99 to find the 1.He didn’t say, “the dissatisfaction is dramatically counterbalanced by the multiplied thousands of young, gifted leaders-to-be who have participated in this meritorious program.”…
Very good point RA.
To understand Dave Hasz, one must understand a psychological disorder called NPD.
Read a description of that and it will explain many many things about the tone and nature of that conference call.
^ BINGO! ^
Here is something to consider that goes along with what Carrie said.
Of course we sound “immature, lacking godly character etc…” because the hurt is so deep. And hurt people need to grieve and let their anger out for true healing to come. Sometimes it comes out by trying to sort through where the blame should go (and that sometimes turns into picking out small issues etc…) which looks to an outsider like irrational behavior.
Of course Dave can sound calm, cool and collect and even sympathetic (which in my opinion, he truly is), because he doesn’t and can’t comprehend how much the “ministry” has hurt and changed our lives forever.
DUDE What are you smoking… Can I have some???
How can you even begin to judge a person’s sincerity??? How can you sit there and make such vast assumptions. Come-on – you know as well as I do, that this is getting a little out of control.
When this blog started, it felt like there was a real spirit of healing. It felt like, as a community, we were able to really share/embrace/love.
Now.. It’s a giant… Excuse my language…BITCH FEST!
Come-On… Let’s get back to helping people…
Happygolucky- if you’re so concerned with “getting back to healing”, then what on earth do you think a comment like that is going to contribute??
Happygolucky – Are you really a part of the love of this community? Could have fooled me with that comment.
There are a couple members of this community who don’t agree with my assessment about Dave and they have spoken honestly about it – but they were able to do it w/o being a jerk b/c they respect our friendship and what we have shared together. That doesn’t seem to be the case with you…? (scratches head)
Maybe you should read yesterday’s post and comment there…
Speaking of tone … you know whose tone I still can’t get out of my head? Jack Hayford’s tone!
I think that the conference call tab on the recovering alumnni response site should read something like this:
We pray that God would continue to foster unity in the Teen Mania family. Please refer to the letter from Jack Hayford, where we put our desire for unity in action by using adjectives like “vociferous” when talking about family members, as well as describe their actions as “misrepresenting reality.”
This is all so enlightening for me. I’m thinking the next time my husband and I need to work on unity in our family I’ll tell him how vociferous he is. He will totally be open with me after that.
What timeless wisdom! Thanks, Jacky-poo!
From Joy G.-
Thank you, Moriah.
But back to the original “question”, we can’t “love the world” and disregard the hurts of the real people at our door. Compassion doesn’t exist if it can’t entertain the hurts and grief of the people who cross our path. A shepherd can’t “just get over” a sheep who’s been violated in his flock. Like RA said, it’s not ok to disregard the “one” for the “many.” All for one and one for all. (Sorry, just watched, “The Man in the Iron Mask”;) ) When I watched the movie, I reflected on the sad truth that often the Church says, “One, for All,” but sells out the “one” when it needs the intervention and support of the “All.” We seem to want people to support the bigger cause in the name of unity, but I learned in my field training that you can’t run over people to reach a “good cause.” That just doesn’t work. God cares about the means, and if the means is wounding and putting spiritual burdens on people, then I would question the whole mission. Abort mission. What are we after, anyway? Spiritual “achievement” & uniformity, or the humble path of the Shepherd-King? Jesus didn’t please or pander to everyone, but he always regarded the truly broken, most of whom had been hurt by religious authorities. Hmm.
seriously, I cannot believe this post and the double standard scattered throughout. This whole post should be spoken to you in analysis of your tone and how you handled yourself as you are no better. this community is your flock like it or not, you’ve lost some of the sheep and I’m not sure you care…..sad
This isn’t going to win me any friends, but I’m just going to be honest…I don’t think you’re going to be happy with anything that dave hasz does. Even if he threw himself at your feet and proclaimed how unworthy he was to live another day, you would probably still criticize him for encouraging suicide or something. So, I believe, that no matter what this man does, you will always find something to criticize about him, something to pick at until you have completely torn him down as a leader and as a person. Is that Christ-like? You’re so quick to judge him yet when do you look in the mirror? You talk about self-justification yet not ONCE did you take any responsibility for your tone, in fact, not once do I see you take any responsibility at all…for anything. Instead, you post a blog throwing out scriptures left and right to justify yourself and to move the focus on the “smooth talk” of dave hasz….and then you turn around and post a blog on dave hasz justifying himself in his tone. I don’t get it? I’m sorry, but if that’s not hypocrisy then I don’t know what is. I know this sounds harsh, and I know I’m going to be getting a lot of hate for this message. But I’m just trying to be honest.
Funny how none of my detractors have based any of their opinions IN SCRIPTURE. Just sayin’.
Anon above – I deleted your comment b/c it was purely an insult backed up with no facts or reasonsing. If you wanna bash me instead of dialogue, there is another thread with 100+ comments where you can do that.
Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load. – Galatians 6:1-5
Just because we post our opinions without a scripture, doesn’t mean there isn’t some substance to it. There’s been several comments on here without scriptures. And I’m not trying to be mean, but you’re last comment shows again an attitude that you have of never taking responsibility or being able to accept the fact that you might have screwed up a little bit. I don’t disagree with this blog, but no one is perfect.
ps – and i don’t mean to be a “detractor”…really it’s not about you. it’s about the community and it’s about us as a part of the body of Christ helping to hopefully bring understanding, healing, and change in regards to the HA.
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. -Ephesians 4:2-6
Sarah – I don’t understand what you are trying to say with your verse from Galatians. Please explain.
I’m sorry you feel that I am unwilling to say that I’ve screwed up. Honestly, if I felt that I had, I would have no qualms about confessing that.
Let me try to address your original comment.You said I would never be happy with anything Hasz said. I’ve already dedicated an entire post this week to what I liked about the call and what he said. I’m not “bashing for the sake of bashing.”
I absolutely take responsibility for my tone and I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear enough. I have no regrets about what I said or the way I said it. I’m sorry if that offends you, but its the truth.
When I first started this blog, I gave Dave the benefit of the doubt. In fact, you can see that in my emails with him, which are posted elsewhere. But, after hearing nightmare stories about how he has treated people, about how he has IGNORED previous “confrontations” and about how he has outright lied on many occasions, I am no longer able to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I totally understand why you do. You have fond memories of him, etc. But I think I’ve seen behind the mask, so I’m no longer able to do that.
Also, I find this sentence of yours beautiful, “it’s about us as a part of the body of Christ helping to hopefully bring understanding, healing, and change in regards to the HA.” That was my hope also, but TM has dashed that hope. It is no longer my responsibility to dialogue with them in anyway (according to my understanding of Matt 18).
And again, as far as my tone, I believe there was Scriptural precedent. If you disagree, the burden is on you to explain WHY I was wrong. You are free to do that here, as long as its done respectfully.
Peace.
my main point with the verse from galatians and the last verse is basically, as the beatles have said it, let’s come together. let’s bear with one another, let’s bear each other’s burdens, let’s watch ourselves and test our own actions, let’s show love and let’s restore gently.
and in my opinion, this applies to dave hasz as well, who is also a person. i understand that he is accountable to answer questions, and to take some responsibility for the things that have been done/said. i understand that we, as part of the body of Christ and as part of the alumni, have the right to question things and to tell our stories of things that hurt us and need to be changed. but, in my opinion, the love and gentleness that you talk about that the HA doesn’t have, well you didn’t show that on the phone call either.
now that i’ve said it, i won’t bring it up anymore b/c that is my opinion and my opinion only. i don’t want to force that on anyone. i just think we have to agree to disagree b/c apparently we both have differing views on this situation.
and you said that it is no longer your responsibility to dialogue with them in any way…does that mean there will be no more attempts to contact them about changing the way the HA is being run? (emails, conference calls, etc). I mean, if that’s your decision, then of course that’s fine, but I know you’ve said in the past that you’ve felt that you guys need to shed light on things that have happened and the way the HA does stuff in order to help protect future interns from the same hurt.
I want to post something without being bashed. It is understandable that some people were very hurt by HA/Dave/ or other leadership/interns. This is a good place for you to vent your problems. I can understand the desire to want TMM to step up and take responsibility, feel very bad, and do something. Here it comes, What if we never get that? People really were hurt. That is a shame. Living our lives in the past is a bigger shame. I know, I was living my life focused on my past hurt for more than 12 years. Mine was not with TMM but with a situation very harsh. Date Rape as a virgin. My hatred, because it was true hatred, for the man didn’t help me get over it. I tried counseling, I was angry at the people who placed me in the situation. I was on depression meds, I have been near the point of suicide. I gained over a hundred pounds. Talk about a person who truly hated themself. I did. Some days, I still feel that way. How I got better, I cannot give you a time line. I just know, at some point, I had to make a choice to do it for myself. Anger for the man eventually began to fad. I stopped caring about where he was, the money he owed me and the stuff he did to me. I began praying to God that the man would truly love him and change his life. Somehow, through God, I found forgiveness. I will never allow that man in my life but I forgive and wish the best. If that man does wrong again, I pray and know God will have vengeance. For it is God’s to give, not mine.
I guess what I am saying is, let’s focus on getting better without TMM. If they someday chose to help us, great. But we cannot rely on them. Even if they have the best of intentions, they can fail because they are ran by humans who by nature sin.
So let’s come up with our own program to help with those who are hurt because they still need us. I am thankful every day for the few who stood by me during the worst of my problems. I hope I can help someone else. If you wish to talk email reclaiminglife@centurylink.net
Until then, It is okay to vent frustrations and tell people what happened. Sometimes, that is as good of therapy as anything.
“I guess what I am saying is, let’s focus on getting better without TMM.”
Many might say that this is not possible… as long as TMM is in a position to continue hurting people. It’s not “living in the past” if you are passionately seeking to protect people from future harm.
I spent a decent amount of time with Mr. Hasz during my internship (07-08) and he is not exactly an emotional person. as someone previously eluded to. Not once did I see him cry and I was in the room with the IET class when he let us know his wife was diagnosed with cancer. He is verry somber cool and collected regardless what circumstance he is faced with it’s something the Lord had blessed him with. I could seriously see an intern come crashing into his office saying “Al Qeda just landed a troop of paratroopers on campus” and I would be supprised if he so much as raised his voice.
I don’t see it as him being insincere its just part of his personality. hes not a comforter and calling him an encourager would be a bit of a strech (thoug at times he has encouraged me). Regardless of how sincere hes is he is never going to come cry with you as you rest your face on his shoulder its just not who he is.
As for him being abrasive and a little offensive. I think its fair to say at times Christ was the same. When he told the man not to bury his father “let the dead bury thier own” and told the crowd the doctrine of him being the Bread of life and in Jhon 6: 60-70 he seems to make no bones about not being affraid to offend people. Do you not think there were some that left that crowd a little hurt, Maybe even a lot hurt? Mr. Hasz demands a lot out of interns. He pushes them and streches them beyond where they thought they could go. In this process some are going to not like it, Some are going to get offended and get their feelings hurt. I dont think it is his mission in life to do this to people but at the same time I dont belive he is living his life on thin ice trying not to make anyone mad or hurt anyone feelings.
I say this not to be insensitive. I know there are a lot of people on this site with verry real issues with Teen Mania. I am sorry for any hurt that was caused during the internship. I know I offended my fair share of fellow interns during my year but as far as I know I have made amends I have apologized and reconciled with thoes I wronged. Thats what needs to happen. Mr. Hasz cant apologize on behalf of some un-named CA that is not there anymore and he dosent even really rember.
Anon @ 9:23 – I totally agree with you that we need to pursue healing while recognizing that TM/Dave (for the most part) will not be a part of that process. Even though the outcome of the call was not what most people desired, it does provide a sense of closure. Now people know where Hasz stands and they can quit wasting their time trying to reconcile with him and TM and just move on in their lives. And I think recognizing that is a step in the right direction. I think your experience provides an appropriate comparison, so thank you for sharing.
Chris,
No one is expecting DH to cry, or get emotional. We ARE expecting him to show concern, compassion, and a commitment to prevent future hurt. These do not have to be shown through your expressions but they can be shown through actions and words.
The conference call is only a SMALL piece of the puzzle with regards to our dealings with DH. I, personally, have emailed him on several occasions regarding my story. I know of others who have emailed him and never heard a response.
The old saying, Actions speak louder than words, fits here. DH is not showing us through his actions that he has concern, compassion, or commitment to prevent future hurts. This was piled on by the conference call.
It IS DH responsibility to apologize and resolve the issues. I have talked about this in another post. Ignorance about a situation is not an excuse or a defense. As the Director of the HA he has the responsibility to know what is going on at the HA. He is the leader.
I thought Dave showed a lot of sincere concern, regret, and remorse in his tone. I feel like he took responsibility for many things which were not his direct doing. I was pretty happy with the conversation. I was happy to hear that changes have been made to the HA. I do not think he was dismissive or condescending at all…. just my take on the call.
Wow. Could not disagree more with RA on this post. I’m getting the impression from those dissatisfied that he’s maybe not doing enough. …what specifically would you like to see him do? What is it that you’d like him to do to make things right? Resign? Pay you money for pain and suffering?
I think he’s doing everything he knows to do to make things right.
The dialogue between RA and Sarah reminds me of RAs post in prep for the conference call – to watch out for “if”, because it’s meant to sound apologetic/sincere when the one using it really isn’t. You used a lot of “if”s in there, RA. Just sayin. Doesn’t sound like you take responsibility to me. Sounds like you were irritated Sarah called you out.