Let’s just get this question of tone out of the way and then we’ll dive into the substance of the call in the next post. A lot of people didn’t like the tone I took with Dave. People have called it bitter, disrespectful, angry, rude, etc. (Of course, many people already had their mind made up about me and this site long before the call. Those are not the people I want to address.) If you are on the fence, or sympathetic to the community here, yet you were turned off by my tone, I want to reassure you of some things.
First, I would like to point out that judging someone’s heart or arguments based solely on their tone of voice or the way they present themselves as a speaker is not a Biblical idea. If we only listened to Christian leaders who were “cool, calm, and collected” or “reasonable” (as some people have called Dave’s tone), then we could not in good conscience listen to Jesus or Paul.
All throughout the Gospels, Jesus repeatedly confronted the honorable, elite Christian leadership of his day. In Matthew 23, Jesus pronounces seven woes on the Pharisees, calls them hypocrites and says things like:
Crack open chapter 23 and read it out loud the way it was meant to be said. Does this sound angry to you? Maybe even rude? Jesus was tearing apart the people most considered to be upstanding, God-fearing, “Christians” of their day.
The Apostle Paul was also a man with passion. In fact, he had a very public confrontation with the Apostle Peter. And (gasp!) he didn’t even go to Peter privately first.
When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong… When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all…Galatians 2:11, 14a
The Apostle Paul was also incredibly emotional over the communities of believers that he was a part of. He pleads with them, cries over them, prays for them, labors for them. How could that not come out in his tone?
See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand! Gal. 6:11
Not only does Paul get emotional over his brothers and sisters in Christ, he also warns them against smooth talkers (Paul himself was not eloquent or a persuasive speaker). If you were in ancient Israel listening to Paul vs. the smooth talker of his day – who would you believe? Would you be turned off my Paul’s rough emotionalism and taken in by the cunning smooth talker who has an answer for everything?
In fact, nearly every time Scripture mentions people with smooth talk or smooth lips it is referring to people that are trying to deceive us: the serpent with Eve, the adulteress in Proverbs, false prophets and teachers.
With persuasive words she led him astray; she seduced him with her smooth talk. Proverbs 7:21
For the record, I am NOT equating myself with Jesus or Paul. Let that be clear. What I am saying is that there is Scriptural precedent for being emotional about your brother’s and sister’s well-being, for harshly confronting any legalism that nullifies the Gospel of Grace, and for NOT judging based on the eloquence of one’s speaking abilities.
Substance, not form, is what’s important. I don’t care if you disagree with my opinions and accusations of TM, but if you disagree just because you didn’t like my tone of voice, I believe that is a very poor reason and you could be missing the essence of what I am saying.
To the Anon at 8:31, concerning the liar bit: As RA said on the call, she had two options. She could believe Dave (who has said untruths to her before), and call the woman who shared this fact with her a liar, or she could choose to believe the woman who confided in her.
My guess is that Dave did say this, but has no recollection of it. After all, who remembers every flippant comment they’ve ever made? However, DH sets himself up as the most “honorable” and “statesmanlike” leader that the interns encounter, which means he loses the freedom to make flippant remarks. I don’t think he realizes that when you create a persona for yourself that is entirely about respect/honor/dignity/excellence, you have to give up your right to make flippant and silly comments outside of your close circle of friends and family, because those comments will inevitably be misunderstood, no matter what your intentions.
RA had a choice of who to believe here, and she chose to believe someone who was hurt and upset by Dave’s words, as opposed to believing Dave, who could have easily forgotten that he ever said this.
Now, if everyone doesn’t mind, I’d like to shout something here so that any incoming commenters notice it:
IF YOU WANT TO BE ANONYMOUS ON THIS POST OR OTHERS, PLEASE CHOOSE A FAKE NAME FOR THE SAKE OF CLARITY.
I know people have covered it before, but it gets exhausting when there are a million Anons. Just choose Name/URL from the drop down list, and then leave the URL blank.
Pretty pretty please.
You don’t have to say who you are. Call yourself Frankie B or Lulu or JessieMarie. Just choose a name so we can help keep you all straight, okay? Thanks!
–Julie
So people saying that she already made up in her mind that HE was wrong, kind of have it all wrong.
My two cents.
Dave’s intimidating. There’s no denying that. And because of this persona that Liz described, he’s incredibly unapproachable, whether he likes it or not. Most alumni who went through the HA under Dave’s leadership, even those who were hurt by him, still revere him with something that borders on hero worship. I don’t think this is Dave’s intention (Though who doesn’t want to be respected?), however it is a direct result of the culture he creates around himself.
See, Dave lives in the bubble. And not the “Teen Mania Bubble” (though he lives in that too), but the 30 Rock bubble. The one where everyone around you tells you you’re awesome. Everyone around you tells you you’re changing the world. Everyone’s kissing your…you get the idea.
I’m sure that Dave’s bosses are firm with him from time to time. He works for Ron Luce, after all. But judging from the board’s response, my guess is that there aren’t really that many people keeping Dave’s pride in check. Especially not intern alumni.
RA was speaking up for a community that she loves and respects. She was defending people who have been hurt by Dave. Of course she was emotional. Of course she was angry. I’m actually incredibly thankful for that. That this community has someone who cares about them enough to speak up for them. To thrash a little bit in the temple. To call the Pharisees out on their bs.
Believe it or not, I have incredible amounts of respect for Dave. I differ from some in this community in that I truly do believe his heart and intentions are “above board”. I do. And I believed him when he took responsibility for his actions and apologized on the call. I’m thankful he did that. I think it took some courage and humility.
However, had RA been swayed by this, she would have been letting down this community who believes in her and trusts her as a leader (sorry, RA, I know you hate that word as much as I do). She got emotional and angry when it counts. She spoke for people who could not speak for themselves.
And everybody needs to be confronted “rudely” from time to time. Everyone’s pride needs a little check from time to time. I know mine does. RA’s does. And Dave’s does for sure.
If you’re going to come on here and flame, whether you’re in the RA community or on the TM Party line, I’d like to suggest you not be anonymous at all. RA has specific reasons why she’s being anonymous, and that’s her business, but if any of you are going to come on here and state some kind of strong opinion, I’d like to suggest that you use your name.
It’s liberating, I promise.
that point brings us another point for me, how can you know the stories that you post and personally get are 100% truthful? I know people are truly hurting but hurting people can also be bitter people and they can also stretch the truth to make DH, RL, an TMM look bad and make themselves look more like a victim.
again let me reiterate that I know people are hurting and are finding healing here. I’m just wondering how Do you (RA) test the validity of the stuff you post?
you have to know that some people are really trying to defame TMM at any cost right?
not you of course not saying that!
JustJ33: I see what you’re saying, and you probably agree with Julie that the 3rd option would have been to say “I don’t know what’s true because I wasn’t there.”
But the person (who many of us in the community know) who told this story about Dave is RA’s friend. Someone who confided in her. To say publicly “I don’t know what’s true.” is to tell this person who was hurt “I don’t necessarily believe you.” RA has chosen instead to defend him/her vehemently. Calling Dave a liar in that regard was the right thing to do. RA believes her friend. Dave said that her friend said something untrue. What would you have done?
Actually, don’t answer that. Let me put it to you this way. If my wife walked in the door and told me that a guy at her office had taken advantage of her, I wouldn’t wait, I wouldn’t hesitate. I wouldn’t give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn’t question him, I wouldn’t feel sorry for him and I wouldn’t listen to his side of the story.
I would call 911 and tell them to send an ambulance to his house, then I’d walk out the door and head over there to take care of business.
Because she’s my wife. My best friend. I trust and respect her on a level that far overshadows anyone else. If she told me Dave Hasz took advantage of her, my reaction would be no less severe. I would be so rude and disrespectful to Dave, his head would spin.
Dave would never harm a woman in that way, of course. We know this. But that’s an extreme analogy to illustrate a point. RA’s friend, whom she loves and trusts, told her that Dave hurt him/her with his words. RA struck out at Dave in this friend’s defense. I see nothing wrong with that.
RIGHT ON!! That’s exactly what I was thinking. Especially the first two paragraphs. I think it took mega courage that had been mounting up for a few months/years now on RA’s part to be able to speak to “the all mighty Hasz” like that.
For me myself, I would probably try to speak out but end up backing down. Not speaking for RA, but I would’ve had to shout to keep my courage up. So her “tone” was actually pretty tame, if you ask me.
But I haven’t gotten to the using my “real name.” I’ll think about that one.
I didn’t realize you posted again. I was commenting on your firt post.
Good questions all around so let me see if I can address them:
1) How do I know everything I post is true?
Short answer: I don’t know that every single detail is true, but I do know that the overall stories of pain and hurt are true. If they weren’t they wouldn’t resonate with so many people.
Why do I believe that in this particular instance, Dave actually did call my friend a wicked sinner? Well, I have spent countless hours on the phone with this individual processing through her experience with TM. I have actually had the opportunity to meet her in person as well. She has confided in me quite a bit and I sense her genuineness. She is not malicious. If anything, she feels overguilty for any hint of “unforgiveness.” Perhaps she will chime in this post, perhaps not (since she has already taken alot of abuse from TM and its supporters).
Also, let me point out that if Dave would have said, I don’t remember then I would not have taken such a hard line. However, he said:
“That is absolutely not true. Its not true.”
So, given the fact that I intimately know the person who told me this story. Given the fact that it made an impression on her enough to be humiliated in front of a room full of people and subsequently get rid of all her alcohol…Dave didn’t give me any room here to let him off the hook. (And, if anyone cares, I didn’t call him a liar, I said he was lying. 2 different things)
I actually never accused Dave of financial impropriety. I don’t think its too much to ask for COMPLETE OPEN TRANSPARENCY given the fact that we, the alumni, have raised a crap-load of money for the ministry.
What struck me as odd, was when he acted like he never recieved $80k for his rental properties, when he clearly did. Shady? You decide.
I’m going to to do a whole post on the finances thing, so maybe we can hold off conversation until then?
And thank you for not calling him a liar. 🙂 I wanted to be sure to reflect that in my comment above.
As we know from that video on the forum, there is a difference between saying, “This is what you DID,” and, “This is what you ARE.” I think you were definitely in the, “This is what you DID” camp on this one. And people do need their feet held to the fire on stuff like this.
I totally respect your right to disagree with me. 🙂
I was not confronted by anyone on the HA staff.
There were no rules for staff or SA’s regarding consumption of alcohol (besides not drinking in front of interns) and no valid reason for the confrontation. The spirit of the confrontation, however, was pretty obvious from the questions that were asked and the attitude in which they were asked; they did not agree with it and thought less of us for doing it.
Again, though, this had nothing to do with HA or Dave H. I bring it up only to point out that, regardless of HA’s stance, there are staff at TM that look down on alcohol consumption and would consider it a sinful practice.
Don’t worry, we’ll get to content next…thought it will probably take a few posts.
When I submitted my story to RA, we had an open dialog regarding not only the story, but other aspects of my life. I think if at any point RA felt that I was being less then truthful my story wouldn’t have made it on to the blog. In addition to that when several anon’s questioned facts in my story RA emailed me of clarification. AND if that doesn’t satisfy you there were several people who knew who I was based on things I stated in may story, some you can see in comments others contacted me via email or facebook.
Based on the first 2 points above I assume that there is a little bit of a vetting process RA goes through before posting a story.
If someone on this blog says that TM has hurt them in some I BELIEVE them, because I was hurt by TM.
Also, IF some one sounds ‘bitter’ or ‘angry’ chalk it up to part of the healing process. Instead of writing someone as bitter, can you offer love and support? I think if you do, you might see that ‘bitterness’ melt in to healing and growth.
There are three sides to every story…
1.) His/Her story
2.) TM/HA/DH story
3.) and the TRUTH
There is no absolute objective truth in story telling.
This is a simple concept introduced by post-modernism. There are truths in all sides of the stories, but one has to re-define truth as a relative concept before they can hear those truths.
************************************************************************
Thank you for your voice RA. Thank you for standing up for the wounded. Thank you for being angry in defense of every intern who was ever in danger, abused, belittled, lied to, or mistreated under the leadership of David Hasz. (and all in the name of God)
what a shame it happened, but what a beautiful victory to face it with fierce courage and boldness!!!
(and what a lovely bike ride I had!)
Love,
Moriah
Some of the people on the recent call audio thread, though? Wowzers.
I am drained in more ways than I can count because I have had an incredibly stressful week at work. One of the places I used to visit to get some peace and comfort was this blog/forums, but since the conference call, I can’t even do that without having to explain myself, listen to someone else call me a name, get random messages about how hateful I am (despite not saying anything in the first place)
I think I need a break from people altogether.
No wonder you don’t believe in God anymore… we Christians can get pretty vicious. Really, I’m sorry.
Hey guys, LOVE wins.
Thanks for speaking up for yourself. You are always welcome here. 🙂 You are loved–Go ahead, take a break 🙂
Dan- thank you for the insightful assessment of the “personna” created by DH (inadvertantly). From being in ministry leadership myself, I know how easy it is to get high on your own morality, so to speak. Especially if you are a very conscientious, high-performing, serious person. With a lot of discipline. I remember how even my friends were intimidated by me and my “holiness.” Instead of bringing them closer, it ostracized them though. Jesus wasn’t intimidating like that. Kids ran up to him. Right now, I visit a church where the pastor has a gargantuan personna (for good reason- he’s “anointed,” moral, spiritual, and brilliant).
People are awed by him. But the problem with that is that no one dares to question him, because they “can’t compete” with his godliness. (As if this is a race.) I remember being terrified by my own reputation because it was so surreal, larger-than-life. I wasn’t lying. But try being honest when all you get is positive ‘press.’ It makes you think that spiritual performance is all that makes. And the worst thing in the world is for you to “mess up.” (Because of all those people who would be disappointed.) I’m glad Jesus never put pressure on his disciples like that. He never told them to “be clean.” That was what He was for.
But all I really wanted was for someone to see through me. See and not be horrified by the fact that I was “just human.” I deeply wanted someone to not be impressed by me for once. So I say–“Please keep pointing out the things I do that put the emphasis on me and not on Jesus’ work! Speak up when I try to impress based on my right actions versus the finished righteousness of Christ on my behalf! Get it my face! Curse me out if you need to! But please wake me up when I start to believe my goodness is of any account. Please point it out so I can stay grounded at the foot of the Cross!” Paul, at the *end* of his ministry described himself as the chief of sinners. Wow, I aspire to that self-understanding. “That HE might be shown greater”!! I’m still looking out for my ego–unfortunately, it makes me “ashamed” of the gospel sometimes. Any ministry leader needs to have this proclivity repeatedly brought to his/her attention.
Thank you, RA, and so many others…
Just to let you know that your comments have helped me many times. I think you play a very special part.
This saddens me….I will be moving onto a new community, it’d be interesting to know who of you feel the same
It makes me wonder if you’ve really been a part of this community or if you are just posing as an upset member for looks…
As far as what Dave said making a difference, there were multiple lies told during the call…and I’ll get to those next week.
We are sad to see you go.
I would say, however, that I don’t feel as if RA has told anyone to “go to hell.”
I think RA has been incredibly patient through this process and especially the last week. There were a LOT of comments that should have been deleted for violating the comment policy, but I think RA allowed them to stay because their points were to be considered. (Correct me if I am wrong, RA)
I disagree with you about how Matthew 23 was “meant to be read”. When we are talking about not the content, but the tone of what someone says, I think we need to look at the entire passage.
The end of the passage ends with Jesus lamenting over the same people that he was pronouncing woes against.
I can not read this passage aloud without hearing Jesus compassion, not just for those wronged, but also for those who had done wrong. This wasn’t Jesus just being pissed off and yelling at the Pharisees, this was Jesus with his heart torn.
As far as the passage in Galatians goes 1. I see nothing to indicate that Paul was angry and lashing out to the people he’s speaking to, and 2. I think that saying he “wishes he were there so he could change his tone” is saying that letters do not convey the tone that it is meant, and if he were there in person, they would be able to hear the nonverbal cues in speech and would understand the reasons Paul wrote what he did. Otherwise, why would Paul change his tone just because he was physically present?
As far as the rest, this post and many on this site could certainly be considered smooth talking. The issue in scripture isn’t that people were persuasive, but that they were persuasive for purposes that were evil.
I think that Solomon would certainly fall under the label of a smooth talker for certain, and that was a gift directly from God.
That said, what your tone sounded like to me on the call was a somewhat irrational person who simply had a vindictive hate towards Dave Hasz. It seemed that no matter what he said, you were out to find fault with it. It also sounded very arrogant and superior.
I’m not saying that those are your actual motivations, I’m just saying what your tone and questions sounded like to me.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, also we are told that “As far as it is possible, be at peace with everyone.”
Your tone was not one that sounded to me like someone seeking change of any form, it sounded like you just wanted to pick a fight.
It also seems that most of the people in support of the tone used by RA are more interested in blasting Dave than they are of actually wanting change at the HA(and yes, I understand that the purpose of this blog isn’t primarily to see change happen at the HA, but I can’t see how the conference call was anything but an attempt to do anything but that).
The simple fact RA is that you pissed alot of people off…plain and simple. You made people that don’t like you mad (which I guess might not matter) but more importantly you made a lot of people that support this site upset as they put a lot of faith in you that you were actually going to do something. Simply put, you hurt alot of people but you have done nothing to acknowledge that but instead have defended yourself and just told everyone else that they don’t have to agree with you. How did you tell people to stick it?…..” I don’t care if you disagree with my opinions and accusations of TM,”…..I think thats pretty clear. As far as “multiple lies heard during the call”, I am interested in hearing those from your opinion because to be honest I’m having a hard time believing what you have to say now. That is the way I feel that a lot of people seem to feel and yet you don’t care….that seriously is what is ultimately sad to me.
Lastly, Shannon I never said anyone said “go to hell”. also the last paragraph of your statement: “I think RA has been incredibly patient through this process and especially the last week. There were a LOT of comments that should have been deleted for violating the comment policy, but I think RA allowed them to stay because their points were to be considered. (Correct me if I am wrong, RA)”….how arrogant is that, I mean seriously!? Basically your saying that nobody can debate or confront RA for any wrong doing, am I right? Where is the accountability to RA? Where is the accountability to you? How can we know your both telling the truth? How do I know your not the same person?
In conclusion, so many thoughts that are suddenly coming out ever since the call and the bottom line, your losing people….you had a great cause but your losing it and I caution you to consider and be careful as you move forward.
Very well put thoughts Phil…I was surprised to see your thoughts but am glad that someone else that was supportive of this site spoke up with real feelings of whats up.
“I don’t care if you disagree with my opinions and accusations of TM,”…..”
I didn’t mean – I don’t care and screw you. What I was trying to convey (and obviously poorly) was that I think its fair to disagree with me based on the my accusations/arguments. Civil, God-loving people can agree to disagree on the substance of things. I was trying to point out that I don’t think its fair to throw me under the bus, just because of my tone. Does that make sense?
Philip – I appreciate that you actually addressed my arguments. I disagree of course. 🙂
To the other commenters on this thread and others: I’m not sure why I am being blasted for so called “not wanting to see change at TM.” I’m not in a position to make change – and the person who is – Dave Hasz – just denied that ESOAL is causing serious problems for people, and that he caused severe devastation to people’s lives.
So who is really the person that doesn’t want to see change at TM?
“I don’t mind if you disagree with my opinions and accusations of TM,”…..”
If I’m being honest, its confusing….People will stand by Dave as he hurts numerous people…but I get the crap beat out of me (verbally) for one mis-step (in your eyes). Help me understand that.
I have no desire to pick a fight with anyone here. If that is how its coming across – I apologize. Its occured to me that maybe everyone is taking the tone I had on the call and overlaying that onto all my posts now…which would be a mistake. 😐
I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t hurt by many of the comments made here this week. But I guess that’s just par for the course. Personally, I’m ready to drop this whole thing and get back to business as usual…
Next you said “If I’m being honest, its confusing….People will stand by Dave as he hurts numerous people…but I get the crap beat out of me (verbally) for one mis-step (in your eyes). Help me understand that.”- I have a lot to say about this but first off, welcome to the world of leadership :). When you step up to the plate to lead people or a cause, you better be ready to get the proverbial “crap” beat out of you. You have a lot of supporters so take encouragement to know that people do support you and care about you alot. BUT if your going to lead this cause you need to know that you are going to have some haters and while some of them are going to criticize for one mistep, I will tell you that you haven’t had “one mis-step” in my eyes and I’m sure in the eyes of a lot of others. In looking back I actually have realized that you have had numerous misteps. I believe that you have misled alot of people to believe that you actually cared about seeing change at TM but more importantly that you actually cared about helping those that have been hurt. My main “debate” if you want to call it that is that it seems you simply have a vendeta against TM and Dave Hasz and are willing to do whatever you can to make that known…..I no longer believe your main agenda item is to help people from being hurt. Listen, you have been hurt and that is valid and your right people will stand by Dave Hasz but look at this from a different perspective, people are standing by you as you hurt people….you are hurting those on the “TM party line” by creating an atmosphere of hate to every last one of them (yes I know they have done the same but does it make it right?), you are hurting the reputation of a solid man of God and dragging him and in reality his family through the mud (and yes I know you hold him responsible for what is being done/has been done but there are boundaries). You may not see it that way but seriously, you say that Dave is the leader of the ministry so everything that goes wrong there is his responsibility so I will tell you this, you are the leader of this “ministry” to those that are abused so is it right to hold you accountable for all of your supporters comments, thoughts and actions?- I am guessing you will say no and probably debate that, but I hope you can see the corelation there because essentially you and your supporters are doing that to TM and the leadership there.
continued in the next post…..
In conclusion, I think I’ve said enough and I’ll be honest to say that I am not confident this comment has helped much and I’ll probably get a lot of negative comments back but I do want to let you know something….RA, what happened to you was not right. The hurt and abuse from anyone else that went through TM is also not right…it is wrong and thats the truth. The hurt that is being hurled at you and the other supporters of your blog since the conference call is also not right but you had to know it would be expected….obviously that doesn’t make it any less hurtful. There does need to be some accountability to you and the other leaders of this blog and bottom line is that I’m not sure that is happening hence the purpose of this comment. You want to hold accountable Dave Hasz and the rest of TM but who is doing that for you? You said that you’d personally like to drop this whole thing and get back to buisness as usual….I’m not sure thats going to happen as people see you in a different light now. You started the battle even if you didn’t mean to and now you must continue to go through it, even though it may hurt at times.
My advice, for what its worth, is for you to be careful with your words…choose them wisely as people really do put alot of weight in them. Second, you are somewhat responsible for what is said of your supporters…keep that in mind as you allow things to happen on this blog. Lastly tread lightly with how you carry yourself from this point forward as I am very confident that you now have an even bigger target on your back whether you like or not….its not right, but it is what it is.
Anyway, these are all of my scattered thoughts, I hope they made sense.
You think that I’ve lied about wanting to help hurt people and instead I just have a vendetta against Dave Hasz. If that is what you want to believe, you have all the freedom in the world to do that. All I can tell you is that it’s not true. And I think nearly every single person who has ever contacted me via email and phone call could vouch for that.
People like to make comparisons between what I’m doing and DH is doing, when really there is almost zero similarities. This is a blog. Its only a blog. You don’t live on my compound. I don’t tell you where you will work, what time you will get up, what activities you will do, when you are in trouble, when you are allowed to go home, who and what you are allowed to listen to and watch…do you realize the difference in levels of control and coercion that DH has vs. what I have on this little old blog? Interns spend 24 hours a day for a year or more living in the culture HE creates. That culture is spiritually and emotionally toxic and that is why he is responsible for what goes on there.
This is very different. This is like a conversation in my living room. I am not trying to control anyone. People come and go as they please and share from their heart – I might start the conversation and I might host it, but it doesn’t mean I’m responsible for everything that is said. We are all adults here. The only control I exert is asking everyone to be honest about who they are and where they are on the journey, and to refrain from insulting one another.
Let me state for the record that I don’t encourage ANYONE to blindly follow what I say. I encourage everyone to think for themselves, gather the facts, and make their own opinions. Dissenting, but respectful voices (like yourself) are always welcome on the blog, and in friendship (unlike at TM).
I would like to clarify a couple things….first I don’t think you lied about caring about people, i do believe you care about people and I apologize if it didn’t come out that way. I believe that this whole thing started with the best intentions and even now it might seem like you have the best intentions but I also believe that the deeper you’ve gotten and the more stories you’ve heard, the more your emotions may have become involved and the more of a vendetta may now be there maybe without you realizing it. My challenge, take a break…take some time away and seek what the Lord would have you do with this medium. Thats not meant to be some cheesy TM lingo, but seriously maybe it would good to take a break and figure out exactly where your heart and mind is and really figure out what you can do to really help people that have been abused….just think about it instead of immediately dismissing it. Where and how can you do the most good for all of us that have been hurt?…just something to think about.
You are right, you are completely COMPLETELY different than Dave Hasz…..you do need to realize though that naturally people want to follow someone, for some you’ve become that person and people are following you. You have become the voice that so many people have suppressed for so long and some people need that. Like it or not RA, you are very influential in sooo many lives and with that comes responsibility.
Lastly I do agree with you that this is a medium that leads to miscommunication, it’d almost be better if this was a video or audio blog so we could properly communicate….does that type of thing even exist? :). Part of choosing your words carefully though is listening to your readers and addressing concerns that they bring up instead of just dismissing them (I don’t feel that you do this alot but I do feel that you have done this more and more since this whole thing got blown up as you’ve gotten attacked more). Humility is something that I believe you could practice more of and I mean that with all sincerity and respect. Your accountability comes somewhat through your supporters so listen to what they have to say when it may be negative and don’t let it get to your head when its all positive or against the “party line”. I know you listen but sometimes it takes really hearing instead of just listening…something that I try to practice is really listening to what people say and anything that comes up I hear out as even though it may not be true, there is still a reason someone is saying it to me….this has helped me to not always go on the defense and if I hear the same thing from multiple people, chances are there might be a bit of truth. I am not perfect by any means, but this is me being open and vulnerable a bit 🙂
I do respect you RA, alot and you need to know that. I supported this blog for a very long time as I had my own share of “experiences” from TM and I found a lot of healing in hearing the stories of others and communicating hurts with those that understand. Our viewpoints have shifted a bit but I still think there is something we can learn from each other as brother and sister in Christ (that sounds TM cliche) :).
“but I also believe that the deeper you’ve gotten and the more stories you’ve heard, the more your emotions may have become involved”
Your statement above is absolutely true. I’m pretty sure I’ve said it before, either here or on the forums. My emotion has escalated from almost non-existent when I started, to at times, raging mad at the hurt and injustice people have suffered. I can’t remain unaffected when people tell me they’ve been suicidal or that they’ve waited for years for someone to validate their experiences and feelings.
I will also admit that there are times when I’ve judged the heart of Dave, and other TM leadership. At times I have allowed myself to feel superior to them…but honestly, I think those times have been minimal, because I’m reminded of all the times that I spiritually abused people. I have no doubt in my mind that I am and was capable of severe spiritual abuse -all the while thinking I was helping people.
Perhaps the difference between us is that I believe Dave has (at least temporarily) disqualified himself from ministry due to the fact that he is oblivious and/or unrepentant about the hurt he is causing. I say that even knowing that some interns say they have a great experience. Some people might ask why. I would respond with another question…If a father has 5 children, how many does he need to abuse before they are all taken away? The answer: only one.
And honestly, though people may scoff at this, I believe the best thing for Dave’s emotional and spiritual health would be a removal from ministry. He doesn’t even realize the damage he is doing and I can only assume he is a victim of his judgmental, legalistic mindset as much as the interns are. And that is no way to live.
So, in my opinion, grace to Dave is pointing out what he has done and not glossing it over and pretending everything is ok. Truly, in my deepest heart I really do care for Dave and want to see him walk in freedom and I do look forward to the day where we can look back at this as friends and say, “Look what God has done, aren’t you glad we aren’t there anymore?”
Perhaps my post on Friday was written from a place of anger and defensiveness…I will concede that. (I still stand behind this post). That is not to say there isn’t any truth in it, only that it may not have been constructive and helpful. For that, I do apologize.
So, when I say TM fosters a spiritually abusive environment, I am not saying that Dave, Ron, etc. INTENTIONALLY mean to harm people.
Judge not lest YOU be judged….
You will have more to account for because of all of this….good or bad….just more.
I feel, for the most part, your heart is in the right place….just question whether you are trying to do good….or rally troops against an organization. It’s confusing to me honestly.
Everyone has crappy tone once in a while, so I get that. (You should hear me speak to my husband when its that time of the month!)
Can you let us in on how much you pray for TM & its leaders? I happen to believe THAT is how real change can begin.
Praying for something is cool, but if you don’t DO anything about it, when you can, then what’s the point?
Asking someone “how much” they pray seems to be more of a thinly veiled judgment waiting to happen, than an honest question. I don’t think that was your intent, I really don’t, but that’s just what it SEEMED like. Even if it weren’t, I don’t really see the point behind asking someone something like that. I would never think to ask Dave, or Ron, or anybody, “how much” they pray for anything.
… seriously, who keeps track of that?? “Oh, sorry guys, I need to pray for Africa instead, cause I haven’t hit my three-hour mark yet.” The notion seems absurd and almost legalistic to me, is all.
I dunno, my two cents. Take em for what they’re worth 😉
Why is setting aside time to pray for anything absurd or legalistic? I do that all the time and I make it a goal to spend at least 30 minutes a day praying for specific things at times….I don’t find it absurd, maybe a bit of discipline if anything
good two cents! 😉
Also, if one more kid knows both sides of the HA before going in, I think it’s worth it.
And about prayer- I guess this is just personal preference, but I’ve never been a fan of setting aside time to pray for a specific thing. I just talk to God about it when the thought crosses my mind. Sometimes it’s for thirty seconds, sometimes it’s for twenty minutes. I feel like our relationship is a lot more authentic that way.
Maybe it’s just because I’m so burnt out because I spent all my quiet times at the HA praying for funds to come in for my tuition. I know I wanted to just TALK to God about US, but I was too scared of “not praying enough” for my tuition. I dunno.
Blogging/Loving/Talking things out are all GREAT….but I know FOR A FACT that prayer moves the Hand of God….softens hearts and preps them for change. Change is inevitable…
So, with all the ‘dissecting’ of each word written on this blog, let me rephrase:
Are we taking the time to pray for the change that GOD feels is needed….not just what WE feel is needed?
I don’t know people’s prayer lives here well enough to answer for anyone else, but I know that when God and I do chat, it’s often about His best for TM, whether that be our idea for change, Dave’s idea for constance, or an entirely new thing that nobody expects.
I think it sounds kind of braggy to say “yeah I DO pray for God’s will over TM, and frequently!“, so I guess that was my issue with the question maybe? And if anyone were to say “you know, I don’t pray for TM very often”, they’re wide open for attack in the name of “accountability”.
So yeah, that’s where I’m coming from. I hope that clears things up!
What does that have to do with the fact that TM routinely abuses people and then lies about it?
I am also now curious to know why such a simple and typically ‘non controversial’ question ‘of accountability’ regarding prayer has people getting a tad defensive. (Perhaps I’m misinterpreting….)
It’s always easier to ‘talk’ about junk going on in life…than it is to pray. That is the purpose of my question.
It’s simple…is prayer involved? Now how much time are you praying?
That said, yes, of course I have prayed for TM and Dave.